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#1 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 08:43 AM

Well, If XCOM is based on a real world... why not conflicts? I mean, sometimes a conflict may do a countries contribution to fall and such as this. Or you might even defend your base from a human military attack!!! Well analize it.

#2 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 10:19 AM

Because it'd divert your attention from the real threat?, besides, X-Corps bases are supposed to be super-mega secret, no one knows where they are, plus they are underground, and they must be heavily guarded on the exterior. XCorps does not interfere with worldly affairs that would attract Human attacks IMO.

#3 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 01:00 PM

O.K. but donīt forget that Kiryu-Kai f.e. was about to be attacked by a human military force. Also, imagine a nation (enemy) that has been possesed by aliens. Then they might try to attack your base.

#4 Tsereve

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 01:25 PM

Like in Apoc! When the aliens take control of a company (it'd be a country in this case, though), you run the risk of them attacking your base.
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#5 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 02:41 PM

Hasn't infiltration and using Human armies already been discussed?, hmmm, I think that X-Corps bases should be so secret that not even the funding nations know where they are (Alien spies could learn the location more easily)

#6 sir_schwick

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 04:28 PM

I agree with Azrael. However if the aliens have already attacked the base and have infiltrated a government, it would be on. Basically military troops would sit on the base, sending squad after squad in while your automated defenses turned them to mincemeat.

#7 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 04:32 PM

I've always wondered, how come when an UFO finds your base to attack it, then any other UFOs have such a hard time finding it?, if one finds the location, then I'm guessing they all should know.

#8 Sinscale17

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 12:40 AM

Because when one ship finds it, they immediately land before telling anyone, and are subsequently decimated by your troops, leaving Alien forces with only a vague general idea of your base location due to poor alien planning.

Either that or that it would be rather depressing that the instant an alien found your base, they could subsequently send fifty battleships at once, time and time again, until the base is terminated.

The only other possibility is that, given the general scale of the "base blip" on the world map, an X-Com base could actually have mobile entry sites constantly reconstructed to access its concealed hangars and base lift, across several miles minimum, meaning even if aliens did know where it was, they'd have to find the new, reconstructed entrances in order to carry out a second assault.
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#9 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 01:47 AM

Because when one ship finds it, they immediately land before telling anyone, and are subsequently decimated by your troops, leaving Alien forces with only a vague general idea of your base location due to poor alien planning.

That's unrealistic and ridiculous.

Either that or that it would be rather depressing that the instant an alien found your base, they could subsequently send fifty battleships at once, time and time again, until the base is terminated.

But realistic.

The only other possibility is that, given the general scale of the "base blip" on the world map, an X-Com base could actually have mobile entry sites constantly reconstructed to access its concealed hangars and base lift, across several miles minimum, meaning even if aliens did know where it was, they'd have to find the new, reconstructed entrances in order to carry out a second assault.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's highly unpractical, even so, if they know the general location, they can spend a little time finding the entrance, I doubt reconstruction would make the entrance kilometers away.

#10 sir_schwick

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 09:46 AM

Personally I would prefer the 'swarm o'death' of Battleships. Think of all the slavage after your Fusion defenses get through the first week. :)

#11 Moriarty

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 09:12 AM

Because when one ship finds it, they immediately land before telling anyone, and are subsequently decimated by your troops, leaving Alien forces with only a vague general idea of your base location due to poor alien planning.

Either that or that it would be rather depressing that the instant an alien found your base, they could subsequently send fifty battleships at once, time and time again, until the base is terminated.

The only other possibility is that, given the general scale of the "base blip" on the world map, an X-Com base could actually have mobile entry sites constantly reconstructed to access its concealed hangars and base lift, across several miles minimum, meaning even if aliens did know where it was, they'd have to find the new, reconstructed entrances in order to carry out a second assault.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


A possible solution to this just came up in this thread. If the base defense systems could fire at everything inside a certain (small) radius around your base, the aliens might never actually know the exact location of your base. They just know it is within a certain area. When they attack your base, they do a close-search of that area, and risk being shot down. If they are shot down or substantially damaged, they know nothing more than before. If they find your base, they know where you are. But perhaps someone could come up with an explanation like "when the aliens find your base they are psi-programmed to go into a killing frenzy and forget to tell the others where to find the base". :D

but to return to the topic: I think war and armed conflict could be an interesting addition... I'm thinking of ground mission with armed civilians, minefields, and all the other stuff you find in a war. It would also add something to the economic system, with nations at war reducing their xcom funding ("we have more important things to deal with"), but paying you more for weapons you sell them. Endless possibilities...

Edited by Moriarty, 20 February 2005 - 09:18 AM.

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#12 sir_schwick

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 01:34 PM

Also you could become a 'mercenary' if funds became tight enough. Of course part of merc missions is camoflageing your armour to look like the nation you are working for. No power or other alien armour types. Also, plasma weapons are probably a bad idea unless you do not care about that nation getting mad at you.

#13 NKF

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 04:35 AM

Regarding the aliens and their retaliation missions:

Here's how I rationalise the alien's odd behaviour. As the aliens don't have any established home base on earth - just the occasional supply outpost, but these don't really count - each group of ships that come down have their own tasks assigned to them which they are to carry out and report back to headquarters on Mars. I doubt they'd communicate much between the various teams, as they'd all have their own tasks to accomplish. A harvesting crew wouldn't really want to let a retaliation crew where the best McDonald's are located. ;)

The retaliation team is given a general idea of where the base is, so they are given the resources to take it out and are promptly sent there all the way from Mars. The carrier (the battleship in this case) sends search parties to locate the base. Once located, the carrier itself goes in and attempts to annihilate it. Being the mobile base for this little operation, if it gets wiped out, all of the data collected on it is gone.

Now, in UFO, it appears that battleships keep spawning after they are destroyed by the defence guns. This won't stop until troops are put into the base. What if the programmers forgot to clear the event that tells the battleships to spawn and attack the base after the battleship was destroyed? It would make more sense that after the carrier was destroyed that no more ships would be sent, right?

In Xenocide, if a similar approach is taken, perhaps it might be an idea to actually have the battleship hovering over an area while waiting for its scouts to return. Once it finds the base, it should broadcast a signal to every other UFO in its broadcasting range just to let them know what's happening to bring the data home if they don't come back to send off another party.

I for one do not want an infinite number of attacks like in UFO. But on the other hand, I don't want retaliatory squads consisting of instant amnesiacs either. ;) Also I never did like the idea, although I thought it would be funny, that the retaliatory scouts are shuttling back and forth between Mars. Would make more sense if they had something closer to work (our home, not their home), and a carrier seems more feasable. (Yes, yes, I know the battleship isn't an aircraft carrier per-se).

So, poor planning, or just a victim of circumstance?

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Edited by NKF, 26 February 2005 - 01:19 PM.

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#14 sir_schwick

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:25 AM

I like the thinking that the Retaliation group has a flag ship that is waiting for data. So the real mission is to make sure that the scouts do not locate the entrance(AA would not be directly over the base for obvious reasons). Of course the only data the group would have before engaging and after scouting would be a small area for the entrance is. This means they have no data on how to breach the entrance or defences inside. If aliens retreat from the mission(you would from a bad base mission), then they have that data and you need to get them before the BS comes to pick them up. It should also be possible to build alternate access sites if your main one is compromised.

#15 GARAK

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 01:45 PM

I think there should be frequent attacks once the xcorp base has been detected. If you don't like it, move the base. I'm not saying 50 battleships at once, just one every other day until your base is destroyed. You can always dismantle the base yourself and move the men and equipment somewhere else.
To counter this, later on you have the mind shield, and also, I think xcorp should be able to jam hyperwaves once the decoder is built. That would disrupt the alien communications when they are in range and piss them off.

#16 doubleSkulls

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 09:55 PM

Here's how I rationalise the alien's odd behaviour. As the aliens don't have any established home base on earth - just the occasional supply outpost, but these don't really count - each group of ships that come down have their own tasks assigned to them which they are to carry out and report back to headquarters on Mars. I doubt they'd communicate much between the various teams, as they'd all have their own tasks to accomplish. A harvesting crew wouldn't really want to let a retaliation crew where the best McDonald's are located. ;)


Yet they are big enough chatterboxes on their version of radio that we know the craft type, crew, destination and mission - but when they find something crucial to success they don't bother letting base know :D Also in the old game your base sometimes gets spotted by a scout - who runs away - and the battleship comes.... so the OM knows where you are but then promptly forgets. :Brickwall:

X Corps is a small organisations bravely struggling to stop the remorsless tide of alien invasion. Encouraging the player to abandon bases would give a good feel for that in the game. However gameplay is king - so we need to balance the two.

So a better solution might be to have a constant trickle of Juggernauts attacking the base. On easy levels one comes every couple of months or so. If the Juggernauts keep getting shot down the OM should stop sending them (or wait until it can send 2 or 3 or 4 at once). If they attack the base and get stopped the next one arrives with a tougher crew. Beat the Vipers? Well here come the Morlocks...

So you are permanently under siege until you abandon the base. Make this relatively painless, so you'd get some money back, and enough time to construct hangars, living quarters & stores to move people & equipment out. Otherwise the gameplay would suck (especially if you got spotted early).

It has the nice side effect of encouraging specialist bases (e.g. research base) that are less likely to draw alien attention and ensuring that the player must adequetely defend his bases and making intercepting retaliation scouts an important job (using your Xenium powered Star Fires to shoot them down).

If this were done well then I think it would substantially enhance the feel of the game - one where you are losing and resort to a suicide mission (i.e. killing the OM) as the last gasp chance.

Edited by doubleSkulls, 26 May 2005 - 09:56 PM.


#17 Snakeman

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 07:45 PM

One thing that might counter balance the potential frustration factor in constantly abandoning bases would be to divise cheaper means to maintain some kind of status quo on the run like this. To me this means small mobile encampments with less ability to stave off retaliations, and no where near the capacity to maintain things like you can in a fixed underground base.

The main boon is being able to flee somewhere, anywhere, even if it isn't another fixed base of yours, to save some elements (people, ships, or equipment) of that fallen base to fight another day.

Naturally you can't take your Fusion Ball Defenses with you, Psi Labs and the like, and you may have fuel and food shortages among other things at your new temporary digs, but with help from ships diverted from other bases, you should be able to survive with this new camp until you either have to move again or have the money to start a new fixed base (or wait for its completion).

The notion of using a roving rogue force like this was also brought up in another thread and NKF had good ideas about it. That thread I believe discussed being able to carry on in some capacity, even if in minimal ways at first, in a state such as this - a losing game scenario, where you've not quite lost, your just very much on the run, and can fight as long as you have soldiers with guns and ships or other vehicles to ferry them around to get what they need to continue from whatever sources present themselves - aliens, compromised nations' militaries, or friendly resistance cells independent of you.

It may open up too another interesting playstyle, the minimalist game. Because the nature of this kind of ability to have a mobile encampment, your already saddled with not being able to have the bells and whistles of a fixed base with all the ammenities, and your soldiers can probably only have what they can take with them - no massive storage facilities.

Some may go the mixed approach, having a couple roving bases like this, ideal for hit and run assaults, and some fixed ones they don't want too much attention drawn to.

#18 mikker

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 04:22 AM

Here's another idea. Battleships are huge. They are filled with aliens, guns, engines, everything. Now... How expensive do you think it is for the Ovemind? Let's just say 'alot'. Would he be prepared to pay 50 times alot of money, in a mission that doesn't seem to succeed? No. He would run out of resources. So let's just see it this way: In order to time and time again attack your base, it would need to increase the harvest and abduction missions. If you can ruin this for him, he won't send more battleships untill he get more resources.

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#19 doubleSkulls

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 08:16 PM

But in a base defence mission you don't destroy the Juggernaut do you? Just the invading troops which are relatively inexpensive. Obviously if the ship gets shot down then you are right and the OM should be reluctant to lose another Juggernaut.

So it should either send several at once - which does consume a lot of resources - meaning a long delay before the OM can launch the mission, or just mark the base as too tough - and ensure it directs missions away from that base too so as to negate its effectiveness or ensure they are sufficiently strong (e.g. escorts or bigger ships).