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Squadrons & Convoys


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What do you guys think of interceptor squadrons based off current, real-life squadrons? Like the Jolly Rogers, or Black Spades, or the Ace in the Ring, Etc...
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Uhh, isn't a squadron a number of ships (4 at least?) So, how often do you have that many interceptors at one base?

 

Don't get me wrong, this is a good idea, but it needs to be modified a bit.

 

Edit: Ships, :LOL: I meant planes. My brain is still on Star Trek mode :D

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger
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How about a hangar holding 4 interceptors?? Same as real life! Then, when you get bigger (ie better) planes, you can only fit a certain amount of them in - so 3 firestorms (never used any of these, so I don't know size etc) and only 2 avengers or thereabouts? Either that, or we extend the amount of room in a base, and allow around 5 or 6 hangars to be built as well as several other facilities.
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I think having squadrons of interceptors detracts from the xcom feel. The point being: you have only a few interceptors, and you have to defend earth with those. If you get like 4 interceptors in one hangar, there really should be a lot more UFOs... Edited by j'ordos
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Well, I guess my point was kind of a best of the best thing... pilots recruited from these squadrons, into smaller x-com squadrons... RPG elements in the making?
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In a way this could be made to work and I have been meaning to take this up. First in TFTD there was an escort craft, but it didn't escort anything, ever! Escorts, that is what I'm talking about. In MoO 3 the Task Force thing works ok, it has some creat ideas, but it still lacks something. We could do the same, for humans and for the aliens - but unlike MoO - make it optional...
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It could work under these circumstances: If all planes cost 1/4 less, and weapons are 1/4 less powerful then u could ave some memorable battles with several UFO's and like 16 craft, a lot like Apoc which IMO was one of it's stronger features. This would allow 4 formations and things 2 spice up interceptor battles. Something I'd like 2 see in v2.0
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I think it would be tedious to have to fight that many battles. Part of the beauty of the original was that the pacing was enough to keep you on your toes, but not so much that you were given an overwhelming workload. Imagine trying to run that many ground missions once your epic air campaign got underway... you'd be at it for hours, all the while stuck in real time without your research, manufacturing, or supply ordering progressing. I think the player would have too much going on. More is not necessarily better.

 

By the way, most flying squadrons (at least in the USAF) have at least 10 aircraft and as many as 50. The smallest squadron I ever saw was in the Cameroon Air Force, consisting of 3 Alpha fighters and 2 Loon scout props, but that squadron included the entire support staff for the base as well.

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Whoohoo! imagine 50 avengers on one very small UFO!! *imagines all the window management*

 

Aaah! We must implent a button which gives your orders to ALL aircraft. eg takeoff and intercept - so they simultaneously attack. and standard attack - they ALL attack at the same time.

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Ur right...Had another thought. What if the UFO's were tough as nails, and if u sent one craft it would get splattered. So, instead of the maximum craft attacking at 1 time being 4, it could be 10. The hangers could hold 2-4 craft ( depending on how big the hanger is gonna be ). Then, u got 10 craft. U got the option of setting the wing commander and u issue the orders 2 him, and the rest follow.

 

U could, if u really want, issue orders to the others seperatly. This could easily be achieved since we have more window space than UFO had, and I think it was screen space more than anything else that made them decide on 4 windows at a time.

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This is a valid topic to discuss, but it's laboratory stuff, not workshops. Remember workshops are for feature development for the current (1) version of Xenocide. I'll move this thread to the labs.
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Oops, My fault I think I always get confused which forum this is in. K, I understand what peeps are sayin about the missiles, but they prob could survive a pounding, and I think it would help make the aliens on a different level to us, instead on an interceptor, our weakest craft, against a small scout, one of their weakest craft. Imagine one of the final scenes in Independance Day, it should be like that on a smaller scale IMO.
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Couldn't you get the desired effect without the play balance consequences (what happens when 2 planes in your squad are downed?) simply by recruiting and training pilots like you do grunts? Perhaps even custom modifications to vehicles (alien weapons you cannot manufacture, or for which reasearch is difficult, but which you can lern enough about to use the ones you find). Imagine Bill "Mad Dog" smith in his F-22 raptor with flame-paint and olds, salvaged pulse cannon strapped under one wing.
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Hey -

 

An easy an interesting twist on this would be to have a empty entry that allowed players to create fictional "Squadrons" at each base. So, while it has no effect on gameplay, the two interceptors at your main base would be reffered to as (just an example) - "XenoAmerica Squadron". So now in the CTD entry, they are just labelled as belonging to that squadron, even though its purely a fluff thing. Then at another base, you could choose to have those two Firestorms reffered to as "XenoBrazila Squadron", etc.

 

No real affect on gameplay, but another way of customizing units. Of course, this could just be overkill :wacko: ! You could even then, in theory, apply unique call signs to the individual craft at the base.

 

This work work nicely with the suggested ATC-ish pop-up boxs on the geoscape...

 

Gold

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I think convoys should be added. For those who don't know what that is, it is basically a group of entitys that are moving to another location in a small-large group. This is usually applied to supply-related vehicles in the military, and possibly other things.

 

What I propose is to allow the aliens to fly in one group, like many Very Small Scouts and so on.

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What, do you mean a convoy of supply ships with escorts? That is a good idea.

 

But I think it would only make sense for supply and possible retaliation.

Besides in real life (if you believe in ufos) the ufos are usually alone when they abduct people/cows, do ufo stuff...

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Hey -

 

Interestingly, I think this already sorta happens in X-Com. By this I mean, you get that occurence every few months where all of a sudden four battleships and three or so other large UFO's all appear at the same time, and then you go apeshit trying to intercept them all. Usually this signifies a new alien base in that area, and in mymiond this type of activity sorta falls under "logitistical convoy". Is that what you meant, or something more specific?

 

Gold

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As there will be the possibility of playing the aliens in version 1+, perhaps you could lay out what types of missions the aliens would need escorts for. Most missions are scouting types, no escort there. Supply ships would be good, as would abductors. A battleship sent to base attack should have one to intercept the human interceptors. A terror ship could also have one, it would be fun if it patroled the terror site and tried to intercept your skyranger prior to landing...
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But, would a convoy show up as one target or as several separate ones? If it's the first, there's a new air combat system needed. If it's the second, what's keeping them together? If you pick out one would the others carry on (like in xcom) or would they try and defend the ship you attack? You'll need more ships yourselves that way, as one won't be able to hold off the buddies of the ship you attack.

 

And I'm not sure I'd like my squad to be blown up while landing too.

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What would happen if it did? I'm not sure I like the idea of my entire vetran squad getting killed just because they got shot down while landing. :(

*cough*escort with more/cheaper interceptors*cough*

Damn cold :D

Edited by Jim69
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I am thinking of the convoys being in one group together. Perhaps 2 or so so ships escorting a supply ship, and so on. Or you could integrate both of them with this:

 

The covoys are usually one group, as before, but some ships could break off in order to intercept the enemy and ectera-basically serving as at least an distraction, while the main group continues.

 

To enhance this further, perhaps the aliens could detect the range of radar fields, and send their decoys into range initially, and then wait for 2 or so minutes, then the real important ships enter the radar range.

 

As for your own troop transports: Perhaps you should escort them, much like the alien convoys?

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I gotta say, if we could pull off a more advanced air combat system, I would love to see this. That said though, I think it could very well scare off a lot of people. I'd hate to see Xenocide lose its main attraction, the tactical squad based combat, and then end up like Apocolypse.

 

However, if we could put together a truly comprehensive and intelligent dynamic air campaign generator, then it would be most interesting. And I think that is what is being suggested. A completely new dynamic campaign engine. Sounds scary to code...

 

Gold

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I was thinking you'd have the ufo fighters guarding the larger ship, and when your craft engaged the fighters would go aggressive while the larger ship goes defensive/evasive at full speed to seperate. Unless your craft was faster/more maneuverable than the alien fighters, you wouldn't be able to disengage them, you'd have to shoot them down. If you kept after the larger ship, the fighters would get free shots IMO as you target the large ufo.

 

If the terror site had fighter escorts you'd have to send a couple interceptors ahead of the transport to shoot down the alien craft, and follow up with the transport.

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And perhaps you could even have the terror site be a 2 parter then, in the second half you take out the alien fighters' pilots. But that would be a hassle IMO, it would be easy enough to have a second navigator on the terror ship remotely controlling the fighters when needed.

 

Of course, if you just show up with the avenger and some plasma cannons, I think you'd get to do whatever you wanted...

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Just 2 go back 2 GG's point, is there any way we can implement a more advanced air combat model, possibly with more participants on both sides, without confusing the heck out of everyone? Is there a way of implementing formations into this? Would it actually make any difference? Would it be better 2 control them all as a squadron, or as individual fightes? All questions I don't have an answer 2, but are definatly worthy of discussion IMO.
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There was talk about making a 3D version of the intercept screen, perhaps the isometric view from behind your planes. You could click on a plane and select the aggresion level and target. There would be clouds in the background flying past, and damage levels would be indicated by smoke and fire coming out perhaps. You'd see the animations of the weapons shooting out from the plane too. You just have the interceptors group together on that screen, I could see having up to 5 easily enough, with the alien ship out in front. You could have several ufos out there as well. You'd have to click fast since it's all in real time, so maybe having a button to assign all craft to attack at the same aggression level or to target the same ufo would be helpful.
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Yeah, that's kinda what I was I was thinking. I got a spare hour or so, so if I may I'm gonna mock up a little screen 4 the interceptor window ( just 2 show u what I mean ) of what it would look like controlling 10 fighters in the current radar system. I also like the asteriods type view, as long as it don't look lame. We got more important things 2 worry about at the mo tho I think :)
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Wow, I got really involved in that, I dunno why but I love playin with PS :) Spose makin up 4 the fact that I aint gonna b here 2morrow so I'd better get some work done tonite :LOL:

 

Ne wayz, this is my take on a formation view. B4 ne1 says, I know, v2.0+++ but this is the general jist of what I would like 2 see. When I thought about it I realised 2 things:

 

1. An asteroids type thing wouldn't fit into the Geoscape, and

 

2. That the Battlescape is gonna be improved so much that the Geoscape needs a little work as well, not so much as that u don't wanna play the battlescape but enough so it brings the whole level of involvement up.

 

To these ends I have created what I think is a more advanced version of the interceptor window, but still easy enough 2 pick up straight away without confusing the user ( see Apocalypse :P )

 

Well, enough ado here it is ( drum roll...)

post-3-1061586341_thumb.jpg

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I had a game where my Skyranger was patrolling the area and few UFO crafts were flying around. I found it weird that they did not try to shoot my craft down. I almost wanted them to do that...

 

And, yeah, why alien craft do not attack XCom crafts in the air anyway? Why do they always wait for the first shot? I thought they are invading, not human... :huh:

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That's 1 of the reasons I think this squadron idea should be made ( Should a mod move a couple of posts 2 the squadron thread or is it alright here? )

 

Say, for instance, if we leave it as is, and we let alien craft attack the Skyrangers. They wouldn't stand a chance coz they have no weapons and are very slow, so if we do let them attack our craft then this idea would ave 2 come hand in hand I think. I also had the idea of alien craft attacking from more angles than just head on, but that could get complicated.

 

Edit: In case ne1 was tryin 2 find the craft on that radar screen, the reason u can't see them is coz they aint there :)

Edited by Jim69
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The AWACS is a good idea! I really like that. It would be kewl too if you could tap into a satellite system and get a thermal display of the unfolding events... it would really show off the speed of the engagements, having a stationary (geosynchronous) viewport, without revealing too much detail.

 

I have an idea for the audio of the interceptor engagements. You could have an open channel of communication with the pilot and have it sound like those tapes that the military releases to CNN on occasion.

 

You would hear the whine of the engines in the back ground and some static the breathing of the pilot through his G-mask.. and the pilot call out the various events.. "Range to target: 100 miles, angels 55." ... "Range to target: 50 miles, angels 60." "Range to target: 20 miles, angels 45- Request permission to engage."

 

You hit the button for an aggressive engagement, "Permission Granted, interceptor one. Make it quick."

 

"Copy."

 

The Ufo makes evasive maneouvers. THe AI pilot has to do some 'turning and burning' as they call it in order to get a missile lock. You hear the growl of the missile radar searching of a target and the heavy breathing and grunting of the pilot as he fights to keep the blood in his brain.

 

"Target Aquired on UFO 3"

 

You hear the high pitched squeel of the missile lock.

 

"I have tone. Fox 2!" You hear a hiss and a roar as the missile departs the undercarriage of the airplane. The pilot continues to grunt and his breathing increases in speed and intensity as he strains. "Negative impact."

 

Then you hear a thunderclap followed by a deep hiss as a plasma bolt nearly misses the interceptor. You hear the plane buffet slightly. The pilot continues to strain. The ship is within gun range now. "Guns guns guns!" The bass buzzing like the sound of ripping burlap of the 20mm guns churning out 6,000 rpm sounds somehow distant over the sounds of the airflow and engines.

 

A sharp, resonating explosion sounds as the aircraft is hit. You hear the creaking of metal and a sharp hiss as the ripped airframe interacts with the airflow. Bitching Betty pipes up, "Warning warning warning warning" The pilot grunts heavily.

 

"Flame out in number 2... I've got," Another plasma hit. Betty changes her song, "Eject. Eject. Eject. Eject."

 

The plane explodes in a shower of shrapnel. You hear the beginning of a sharp, concussive blast and then all is dead air.

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Yeah, that would tie in nicely with one of the things I was suggesting with sound 2 help create the atmosphere throughout the game, tie that in with some adrenaline pumping music, which is being created now I think, and the interceptor screen is 10 times better already.

 

I thought the AWACS idea was the best way of showing a large scale battle without getting too far into it, because basically u don't want the interceptor screen 2 become the main focos of the game.

 

I especially like the constant radio chatter, that would be so cool 2 hear it in the standard level, calm piolet voice.

 

As for the thermal overlays and that, I don't see any reason why not, it could be as easy as a btn next 2 the radar 2 switch 2 thermal view.

 

Edit: Interestingly enough Fux just gave me a good idea, tho it is complicated as heck to code I'd imagine, it wouldn't really effect the complexity level 4 the user tho and would enhanse gameplay. Programmers, I'd make sure u r sitting when u read this :)

 

What if, say for arguements sake that the multiple interceptor and UFO battles get in to v2.0, the battles were less like an RTS where they just hover and shoot the crap out of each other, what if they made passing runs? And then did a loop and went at each other again? Say the faster craft weapons, say cannons, get 5-6 shots off when in range and the missile craft get 1-3 missiles off?

 

Then, much like the battlescape, there will be formulee to handle if they hit or if they manage to evade the shot. I figure that's pretty much how it will work ne way, it's just it will look strange if they just line up like a 19th Century military coloumn and just shooting at each other till there is noone left. That would let the formation thing I ave done really come into it's own, as u could just leave it as is or u could try and adjust 2 get more hits in with the cannon or a couple of missile hits in from long range without having time 2 use cannons.

 

Could get extremely interesting without making it too complicated.

Edited by Jim69
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Possibly, tho I thought that was 1 of the (few) things that worked well in Apoc. 2 me it just seems a bit tame having the sides line up in an orderly fashion and just start firing at each other. It would never happen IRL, and altho this isn't gonna be a sim it would just be nice 2 c I think. Edited by Jim69
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Having all that radio chatter has one disadvantage though: it'll take much longer. Whereas in the original an interception took a few seconds before either one was shot down or disengaged, having all that chatter will increase the time you spend on interceptions. And on top of that, there has to be enough variation, as otherwise it could get repetitive after 10 interceptions, and you start looking for a button to turn off the chatter to speed things up. So I think it's ony feasible if the player actually has some measure of control (more than in the original, I mean) over the whole thing.

Maybe air combat a là Achtung Spitfire or something like that? (You have a top down view, and control your aircraft turn based, each plane can move a set distance according to set speed and... nevermind, here are some pics. The game itself was mediocre, but the flying actually was rather fun)

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