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Tech Tree At A Glance


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#51 dan2

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 04:03 PM

You need a live deep one to get the crafts...
Hmm....
Can't you get it if you have an alien medic give you the live deep one data?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alien medics give you usopedia slots for creatures (dead or alive) that you never reaserched yet, but never the technology that requires that particular alien. And you never get something already researched.
E.g. you never researched deep one terrorist, but you already researched a deep one corpse. By interogating an aquatoid medic you may get the description of a deep one terrorist, but no M.C.Lab or Ion Armor and also no deep one corpse description either, since you already have it.

#52 mikker

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 12:25 PM

I just have to wait for a gillman terror site to pop up, then. Too bad.

(wee tasoth and gilman bases!!!!! Now i can finally get my own subs and finish the game!!!)

Edited by mikker, 26 February 2005 - 03:12 PM.

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#53 Rowenstin

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 03:04 AM

The graph seems too imply that you need the new subs before researching Tīleth, but Iīvee been able to research it with this tech tree:

Live alien>Alien origins>Navigator>Ultiimate threaad>Lobsterman commander>Tīleth

#54 NKF

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 04:15 AM

No, actually the graph's only implying that you need a lobsterman commander and The Ultimate Threat to get "T'Leth the Alien's City".

It's just placed where it is so that you can kill two birds with one stone, as you also need a lobsterman commander to get the Leviathan after you've got the hammerhead. Better to get both done than risking life and limb just to capture yet another lobsterman commander. ;)

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#55 floater medic

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 04:33 AM

on CE as long as you research in this order then you shouldnt get any problems, other versions i dont know:

Deepone corpse
aqua plastics
aqua plastics armour
zrbite
Ion beam accelerator
Live deep one
Ion armour

If its not on the list then it doesnt matter when you research it, you can for example research ailen origins between aqua plastics and the armour without problems. Never came up with problems with lobbies when ive done it in this order.............. maybe i have just ben lucky i dont know
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#56 Puasonen

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 07:54 AM

I've also heard that researching a Live Deep one BEFORE magnetic navigation stop you from being able to reasearch any fo the new flying subs. Was this true or was i mistold?

If it is true it would explain why i've never been able to get subs and therefore beat the game. with weak harpoons early on its not uncommon for me to get a live deep one and have it researched before i get some magnetic navigation done.

~TD

THIS IS HIGHLY IMPORTANT!
I researched live deep one before magnetic navigation and now I can't research mag. nav.! This bug should be added to the research tree!

edit +
LOL I started a new game and I didn't research anything before I came back from first landed ufo. Even then I can't research mag.nav. What the heck? This version of the game sucks somehow.

Edited by Puasonen, 22 January 2007 - 08:25 AM.

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#57 grzegorj

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Posted 08 September 2007 - 06:39 PM

Hi to everyone,

Here are some observations on some errors, urban legends, confusions etc. which appeared in this topic in the past. People write various things on this interesting subject, and some of them do not even give the version of the game (they do not know or what?). That is why, to add my own notices, I have examinated the following 4 versions of the game:

1. A legal copy of TFTD 1.0,
2. 2.0 made with the official patch applied on the legal 1.0,
3. So called 2.1 made with changing geoscape.exe in 2.0 (prepared as in 2),
4. CE (taken from... somewhere, and not quite legal).

First of all, it appears that CE is (or: behaves like) 2.0, not 2.1, and still has one bug which is not present in 2.1. And so, there are three official versions of the game (regarding the tech tree), and examining CE is not necessary (good for me as I have not a non-pirated version of CE, and thus I cannot be sure of anything concerning it). All these three official versions were examined thoroughly by using two hacker-like semi-natural methods: adding items and aliens to magazines when needed (in base. dat or astore.dat), and shortening the research time by changing the proper byte in project.dat. No more hacking, no guessing, no citing others' opinions, only own exact testings and observations.

And these are the results (I hope, repeatable for everyone):

1. Tasoth Commander is a clear myth (BladeFireLight is obviously right). Such a monster does not exist. It cannot be spotted on missions, and most of all it cannot be examined in any way. You can create it only by writing three bytes in astore.dat - but even then you would not be able to examine this thing. It concerns to all versions of the game. The reason is pretty simple: project.dat has no field for coding Tasoth Commander.

So, please stop talking about so called "Tasoth Commander bug" then. Such a being cannot destruct your game because it does not exist - at least in any of the official versions of the game, including 1.0. And when you catch this monster, send it to me please, together with detailed information of the game you play (or better with the game itself).

2. Aquatoid Commander does exist, does not know anything so it is not worth examining, and does not harm the game. Gill Man Commander does also exist, knows a little more, and does not harm your game either.

3. When you have finished Alien Origins, you can examine one of three fellows: a. Gill Man Commander, or: b. Lobster Man Navigator, or: c. Lobster Man Commander. Each of them will let you begin with the Ultimate Threat. I have noticed that many people write only about Lobster Men here - but Gill Man Commander can also be interrogated in this point. It does not harm - checked in all the versions of the game.

BTW. Notice that there is no such a guy like Gill Man Navigator, and that Aquatoids know nothing interesting so examining their commanders or navigators means a waste of time. And about Tasoths: they can only be soldiers or squad leaders. No commanders, no navigators, no technicians, no medics. The game will not see such individuals if you create them and place manually in astore.dat.

4. In order to make no more confusions: if you finish The Ultimate Threat, you can examine Lobster Man Commander (and not other race/range). It will lead to the subject T'leth, the Aliens' City (and to Latest Flying Sub, but only if you have already finished with Hammerhead).

5. Ion-Beam Accellerators cannot be produced in any of the versions of the game. Either it is a bug which has not been repaired, or it is on purpose - as the alien technology is too complicated for human brains.

6. In order to get the subject M.C. Disruptor, you need ANY TASOTH (there were some false rumors here on this). Not necessarily Squad Leader. Tasoth Soldier will also tell you everything you need. It has been checked with all versions of the game. Of course, you must have M.C. Reader examined before you start the interrogation of the poor tasoth... If you have a (pirated) version of the game which makes you use Tasoth Squad Leader and not Tasoth Soldier, send it to me please... to my room of peculiarities :P . (I am just kidding. But comparing such a version with the official ones would bring to find how the tech tree is coded, maybe...).

7. There also were rumors on tanks / displacers and the flying subs. Here is what I have found. There are three types of tanks you can produce: a Gauss one (which is a normal tank), a Sonic one (a flying one) and a P.W.T. one (a flying one). You will be able to produce each tank when you have finished researching:

a. Manta (NOT necessarily Hammerhead - there were many missunderstandings in this point),
b. the cannon (= deck weapon, used with subs) of the proper type (Gauss Cannon, Sonic Oscillator, P.W.T. Cannon).

However...

* note that so called "Sonic Cannon" is a handgun, not a cannon; the name of the sonic version of the deck weapon is "Sonic Oscillator" (I bet the creators of the game have used this name for yet more confusion...),
* there is no link between e.g. Sonic Oscillator and Displacer P.W.T., or between Gauss Canon and P.W.T. (one has nothing to do with the other),
* the fact that you have already started to produce an item or not has (hopefully) nothing to do with anything in the tech tree (I have read that you (as if) get tanks when you begin to make Hammerhead - I have checked it, and it is not true; note that this error is also on the scheme at the beginning of this thread, this error was also on Nethog's Tech Tree, once accessible somewhere on the Net),
* (the thing which appears to be very confusing for many people and to be the source of many errors:) you can get no more than 4 different productions a time; if you should get more, the extra productions will appear with the next finished examination, whatever it will be.

For example: you have already finished (even some times ago) Gauss Cannon, Sonic Oscillator, and P.W.T. Cannon. What will it hapen when you finish New Fighter Flying Sub (= Manta)? That time you should be able to produce: 1. Manta, 2. Coelacanth Gauss, 3. Displacer Sonic, 4. Displacer P.W.T., 5. P.W.T. Torpedo. But five is too much joice in TFTD, so in fact you will get only four of them (in my trials, Displacer Sonic was that missing but I cannot guess if it is by rule or by chance). Then try to begin any topic. When you finish with it, the missing production will appear on your list. As the next topic is often Hammerhead, here we have the source of the errors presented in various places, also here (on the scheme).

Of course a better solution is to finish with (researching, not producing) Manta BEFORE at least one of the cannons. If a cannon is the second (after New Fighter Flying Sub), you will always get the possibility to produce the proper tank.


And finally about "bugs", both really existing and concocted. I would divide them into three categories:

I. True bugs, i.e. things that can make your game endless, or irremovable and harmful in another way.

1. The Alien Sub Construction bug: if you finish researching both Zrbite and Transmission Resolver without having Alien Sub Construction in your stores in this final moment, you will never finish the game. This bug exists in all versions (I wonder why they did not remove it when preparing the "2.1" or "beta" geoscape.exe). I hope that one day a clever modder will find the proper byte in the exe, and will make this way the patch.

2. The M.C. Reader bug: if you finish M.C.-Lab with no M.C. Reader in your stores, you will never have another occasion to examine this thing, and you will invent M.C. Disruptor and M.C. Generator. This bug was removed in 2.1. Note that it is still present in so called Windows version of the game (which is not playable under XP without a special loader, so the name "Windows version" is inadequate). It is so because Collector's Edition is based on 2.0, not on 2.1.

In 2.1 (NOT in CE): if you finish M.C.-Lab without M.C. Reader, and you get the thing after, you will be able to examine it as soon as the most advanced of current researches (whatever it is) is finished.

BTW. 1. Has really nobody made a patch for the CE executable so far, basing himself on the differences between 2.0 and 2.1? Strange indeed...

BTW. 2. In TFTD there are 5 things altogether, such that: a. you must have the object in order to examine it, b. you need prerequisites. Note that such situation does not take place in UFO Defense at all (this is one of the reasons for which TFTD is harder to play). These things are: Disruptor Pulse Launcher, Disruptor Ammo, Alien Sub Construction, M.C. Reader, and Magnetic Navigation - but the latter only in the version 1.0 (in 2.0 and 2.1 Magnetic navigation does not need the prerequisite which is Lobster Man Navigator in 1.0). The programmers have not made a good show (and who were betatesters? and what did they use to do?): Alien Sub Construction is buggy in each versions, M.C. Reader was mended only in 2.1. (and CE was again prepared with the previous bug). Magnetic Navigation was not really buggy (there are many Lobster Men Navigators in the game, and their research is repeatable). Only Disruptor Pulse Launcher and Ammo work fine in all versions of the game. If you managed to finish Zrbite before getting them, nothing wrong has happened. You will be able to research them when you get them and when you finish any other research.

II. Logical bugs.

1. The Coelacanth/Gauss bug. The tank is not flying, so what is the reason for the need of having Manta researched for the tank? In my humble opinion, the tank should be available with Gauss Cannon - but it looks like a plain tank, with a new cannon. I would remove Manta as a Coelacanth/Gauss prerequisite... if only I knew how to do it. Coelacanth/Gauss is not a very strong weapon, and it is practically of no use because of the Manta dependency. It appears too late in the game to make some real use of it. Of course Manta as a prerequisite for both displacers is all right, logical and understandable.

2. Humans cannot build Ion Beam Accelerators (it is acceptable) - but they can invent some things parallelly to the aliens! Incredible, isn't it? I mean 4 items: Aqua Plastics, Vibro Blade, Thermic Lance, Heavy Thermic Lance. It is enough to investigate Deep One Corpse in order to invent a new technology: Aqua Plastics. And then it will appear that the aliens have invented the same independently! In my opinion, it is a logical bug, and the four things should be needed for researching - while they are not. The game would be a bit harder - but a little more logical in the same time. BTW, so called Deep One bug (only in the version 1.0 - you must have Deep One Corpse not only as a prerequisite but also in order to start the Aqua Plastics topic when Deep One Corpse has already been finished) is not very much harmful.

3. A logical bug in 1.0 is Magnetic Ion Armour with ONLY Ion Beam Accelerators and Magnetic Navigation. It is very strange that you can have the best armour without those ones of less quality - and hopefully it is mended in 2.0 (and 2.1). Since 2.0 you need Magnetic Navigation and Ion Armour (instead of Ion Beam Accellerators) as prerequisites for Magnetic Ion Armour. Yes, this makes you have to research Deep One Corpse in order to finish the game - but this is not a bug!

III. Bugs that are not bugs (but rather problems for players with little experience).

Finally: I do not think that the "order bug" is a bug. Quite inversely, I think that the "bug" is quite logical. But during an interrogation we must know exactly about what we should ask the prisoner. So, for instance, if we have some knowledge on Ion Beam Accellerators, and we have already invented Plastic Aqua-Armour, we know what questions should be asked to a caught Deep One. First problems, then interrogation, not inversely.

Yes, it may be a problem for persons who have never played TFTD so far what to research first and what next. It is true - but the same problem with the investigation order is present in UFO (first part), and nobody terms it a bug! Namely, in UFO you must first examinate Alien Origins, and only next a Leader to get the Martian Solution. And exactly the same is in TFTD: first Alien Origins, next Gill Man Commander/Lobster Man Navigator/Commander, not inversely. The same about The Ultimate Threat, New Fighter Transporter and Lobster Man Commander (cf. UFO), the same about M.C. Reader and any Tasoth, and about Ion Beam Accellerators, Plastic Aqua-Armour and Deep One. This is not a bug - but at most a thing that makes the game harder. And the difference between UFO and TFTD is (in this point) quantitative only, not qualitative.

I am about making a visual version of tech trees for all X-Com games. Check my personal website in several days if interested (as for now, you can find there only a very buggy version of TFTD tree). The site is not in English but the scheme will not use any language, only English names.

Cheers,
Grzegorz J.

#58 NKF

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Posted 08 September 2007 - 07:20 PM

The problem with the ordering of the Deep-One isn't particularly to do with the ordering, it's the fact that the Deep One doesn't always appear on the research list again. That is to say, you can only research it once. It might be a good idea to see which version of the game allows you to continue researching them as long as you have Deep-Ones in containment, or which ones will only allow you to research it once. Otherwise the ordering, as you say, is quite logical. As it is, you must research them in the right order or else you'll suffer the same problem as Sub Construction.

The debate on the Tasoth Commander is open. I have seen them generated in the battlescape, but as of 2.0. 2.0ce and 2.1, they will never appear in containment, so cannot be researched. I do recall having one of my games (v1.0) ruined by a Tasoth Commander a long time ago, but have never been able to replicate it since updating to 2.0 then 2.1.

I have long ago been corrected on the Hammerhead vs. Manta requirement for tanks. It is indeed the Manta, not the hammerhead. I stand corrected again!

Another bug with the Gauss Coelacanth that isn't related to research is the ammo use. When you put the Coelacanth onto a submarine, it subtracts 50 ship Gauss cannon rounds from stores, but when you take it out of the sub, it does not return the 50 shells! This makes the Gauss/Coelacanth incredibly inefficient! (Unless you use it only for base defence to make use of the free SWS rearming bug. It's not as good as the Sonic Displacer, but it's cheap and expendable!)

Anyway, looking forward to your complete research tree.

- NKF

edit: Just to add to the confusion with the Tasoth Commander:

A few places where the crew makeup might might need consideration:

- Dreadnaught
- X-Com base attack, port/island/ship attack with Tasoth crew
- Artefact Site, first level
- Colony, first level
- Any mission involving a Mixed Crew - Tasoth seem to have larger proportions in mixed crews.

Edited by NKF, 08 September 2007 - 07:51 PM.

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#59 grzegorj

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 07:44 AM

My TFTD research tree has already been drawn and you can see it here, as a PNG picture. Explanations on the meaning of applied symbols are given on another picture. Alternatively go to my X-Com website and click the British flag at the top of the left frame. Click the picture to open it in full size in a new window.

NKF, I have checked the Deep One problem in my hacker's method (i.e. by placing a Deep One in Alien Containment manually, with the help of a hex editor), and it does not seem to exist. Naturally, it may be so that in a "true" game some Deep Ones caught in a mission are not added to the containment for some reason (which I neither know nor have observed), and you cannot research them as the result. But it seems to me that the reason is in something else.

Namely, astore.dat has a limited capacity, and aliens are not removed from there. In 1.0 it has only 50 records - it means that you cannot catch more than 50 live aliens during all the game. The creators of the game must have noticed this problem, that's why the capacity of the file grew to 300 records in 2.0 (as the result, savegames made with 1.0 are not compatible with 2.0). If you use this limit up, no more aliens will be placed in your Alien Containments. The only solution may be a game editor that can remove the already researched aliens from the file.

You are right - it is another bug in TFTD (as well as in UFO). On the other hand, it is not strictly related to the research tree, and because of that I did not place it on my list. The solution was found only in UFO 3 aka X-Com Apocalypse: in this game each live alien dies when you put it to torture (= start the research), and you are given its corpse (for another research). When you do not need the corpse any longer, you may sell it. Which is more, you may also remove an alien from the containment in any time. The alien just dies (in hostile Earth environment), and you have a place for another live alien. Such a system should be applied in UFO and TFTD - but it has not been.

Deep Ones are rather frequent during first months of the game time - but then they nearly disappear. You have many occasions to catch live Lobster Men and other creatures, and that is why your place in astore.dat becomes exhausted. And if you made the Deep One research without having researched Plastic Aqua-Armour and Ion-Beam Accellerators, you may have no more occasion for researching another Deep One. And even if it will appear at last, you will not have more places in astore.dat.

And on Tasoth Commander: even if it really appears on some missions (I have not seen it yet - but it is not a proof of course), it cannot be a subject of a research. This is what should be obvious and not disputable.

Let's say that such a creature has really appeared somewhere, and that you have caught it. The monster will be placed in astore.dat as 04h 01h (I mean two first bytes in the record). I can do the same with my hex editor. And I did it of course for tests. The problem is that neither 1.0 nor 2.0 nor 2.1 nor CE can "see" this alien. In other words: you will not be able to see Tasoth Commander on your list of researches, in any version of the game.

And this fact is completely independent on the way of acquiring this alien. You may find it on mission (if you may), or you may add it manually - it is all the same. It is unessential. What is really important is the fact that all your researches must be somehow written into project.dat. This file has 2256 bytes, which makes 282 bytes for one base (there is 8 X-Com bases in the game). These 282 bytes are divided in two parts, one of 188 bytes, and one of 94 bytes. For example, the first part for the first base starts at byte at the offset 00h, and the second part starts at BCh (which means just 188 in decimal notation). Each 2 bytes in the first part, and each one byte in the second part, describe one topic of research.

If you are curious about these topics, go to my website, and click "Format danych" under "UFO-2" in the left frame. Yes, the page is in Polish - but the second chart (counting from the top of the right frame) needs no translations and should be perfectly clear (all the numbers there are in decimal notation, and they are offsets, i.e. the first byte is actually counted as 0, not 1). In the first part there is the place for coding the remaining time of the research while the number of scientists is coded in the second part.

Notice that each single alien (of a given race and range) has its own field of data in this file. For example, the field 84 is used for coding the research of Tasoth Squad Leader (= the bytes 168 and 169 in the first part, and the byte 272 in the second part. You may take a hex editor, and write, say, 01 at 168 (A8h), and 01 at 272 (110h) in project.dat in any of your saves. Launch the game, load the save, and in the game you should see Tasoth Squad Leader as the research, made by one scientist. Wait until midnight (in the game), and your research will be ready.

This way you may check the meaning of each single byte in project.dat. And you will find that there is no place for Tasoth Commander. It does not depend on the version, as project.dat has the same structure. That is why I am absolutely sure that Tasoth Commander cannot be harmful for anyone playing an official version of TFTD.

Even if it can appear on missions, it cannot hurt you - you will just not be able to research it. This would be possible only in an unofficial version of the game (which I have never met), with other structure of project.dat.

#60 NKF

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 11:57 PM

I don't think there's any problem with the Deep-ones being put in containment. It's just that the actual research topic is sometimes one-time-only even though you may have several deep-ones in astore.dat, so in a way it's very similar to Sub Construction where you could lose it forever if you don't set up all the right conditions for it to appear.

This probably won't affect all players, but for those that are affected it is worth noting that it might be best to hold off researching the Deep-One until you've done all the necessary research for the Ion Armor. Better safe than sorry, after all. ;)




---

Regarding the Tasoth Commander: We're saying the same thing, roughly. They may get generated in tactical combat, but the Geoscape portion of the game (At least as of v2.0 and v2.1) doesn't recognise them as valid research projects (as you point out, there's no place for them in project.dat), so shouldn't be too much of a concern.

I wonder if there were several different versions of v1.0 out there? I know I had problems with the Tasoth Commander research topic when I was using TFTD on floppy disks, but cannot recall it being a problem when I moved on to the TFTD on the Terror Unknown compilation (full HD install, and movies copied over). Wish I still had my CD for a fresh install.

- NKF

Edited by NKF, 12 September 2007 - 12:06 AM.

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#61 grzegorj

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 04:50 AM

I don't think there's any problem with the Deep-ones being put in containment. [...]

This probably won't affect all players, [...]


There must be a reason for which some players are affected while the others are not - I do not believe in magic in TFTD. Here is Robert Bellflower's note from K. Chang's USG which may be another explanation of the Deep One problem:

Alien containment can hold ten (10) TYPES of prisoners, not a total of 10 prisoners. For example, 4 Aquatoid soldiers, 2 aquatoid medics, 1 Aquatoid technician, 2 Aquatoid navigators, and 1 aquatoid squad leader counts as 5 types of prisoner, but 11 TOTAL prisoners. New prisoners will stop being put in alien containment ONLY when the total TYPES exceeds 10.


Anyway, I do not believe in a special "Deep One bug". There is only the "Deep One dilemma", and two strange limits: of the total number of caught aliens, and of 10 types of prisoners in one base. Both have nothing to do with the research tree even if they are bugs of some kind, for sure.

Better safe than sorry, after all. ;)


You are perfectly right. Deep One Terrorist should be interrogated in the proper time. If the player decides otherwise, various things may happen - because TFTD is a buggy game. But the possible problems may be caused by various bugs, not necessarily by research tree bugs.

---

Regarding the Tasoth Commander [...]
They may get generated in tactical combat, but the Geoscape portion of the game (At least as of v2.0 and v2.1) doesn't recognise them as valid research projects (as you point out, there's no place for them in project.dat), so shouldn't be too much of a concern.


It concerns all versions, including 1.0, not only 2.0 and 2.1. I am absolutely sure about this, and this is why I call the Tasoth Commander bug a myth.

I wonder if there were several different versions of v1.0 out there?


There is a strange plot of silence here on anything concerning abandonware, so I cannot give you the links. But if you did some googling, you would surely find plenty of webpages from where you would download lots of different "distributions" of TFTD (or: go to my website and look through the sites listed under "Linki" = links).

Using this method, I have found 12 different "types" of the original TFTD v. 1.0 (and several "types" of TFTD 2.0), as well as some national versions (including 3 Polish, 2 Czech, 1 Russian versions). Most of them are just the archivized game folder - but there is an iso image of an original CD version, and finally there is also a floppy version (the installer). They all do NOT differ in exe files - and there are only changes in data parts of these files in national versions (e.g. Polish text appears instead of Spanish text). I have observed no differences in binary parts of the files, and I have observed no differences between executables in all 12 non-national versions at all.

As I said, I have an original, legal TFTD 1.0. I have compared it to the downloaded "distributions" - there are also no differences in exe files (the only differences are in some secondary files, as info files from the "distributor" - no exe files are affected at all). Geoscape.exe is of the size of 490,889 bytes, it is dated on March 15, 1995, 21:23, and its checksum (made with Win-Sfv32 in Total Commander) is 3CEB5B2A.

I do not believe that identical executables may allow differences in the way of coding in datafiles. So, I am absolutely sure that Tasoth Commander cannot be investigated in 1.0 the same as in 2.0 and 2.1. And, as a result, I am sure that the famous Tasoth Commander bug IS an urban legend. I mean that any player should not be afraid of such a bug - unless he/she plays a version of the game that is different from all official versions and different from all which can be found on the Internet (if such a version ever exists).

However, if you insist that you had problems with getting the final research topics, I see no reason not to believe you. And, telling truth, all the affair looks interestingly, and I would like to learn what reasons made the problem you are reporting. But each myth should have a source.

As for now, I do not believe in any Tasoth Commander research, and my hypothesis is similar to that on the so called Deep One bug. Let's catch some aliens first. Let them be of 10 different types (each race-and-range combination makes one type). Let one of them be Lobster Man Commander. Let's finish with New Fighter Transporter but not with The Ultimate Threat (or inversely - either the former or the other but not both). Now let's interrogate Lobster Man Commander. When we finish with it (him?), we will get one topic. It will be either The Latest Flying Sub or T'leth, the Aliens' City (not both), depending on what we already got before the interrogation.

Now let's catch any alien but of a new type, so that we would have 10 different types again. And now let's try to catch Lobster Man Commander (as the 11th type)... and the bug is ready (even if not exactly such as you describe it - are sure that you can remember it EXACTLY?). You will get Leviathan - but not T'leth (or inversely), and no Lobster Men will be able to help you with this. All with no intervention of Tasoths Commanders .

As the Tasoth Commander research cannot be reproduced in any way and in any version of the game, I spent some hours trying to reproduce the error you report in some other ways - but it failed too, hence my hypothesis above. I tried various combinations of aliens to get Alien Origins, The Ultimate Threat and T'leth research subjects, and various sequences of Hammerhead, The Ultimate Threat and Lobster Man Commander. Maybe one of these combinations really leads to the situation you have described - but in my trials there was always a possibility to interrogate another Lobster Man Commander and get the missing topic.

#62 Zombie

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 10:32 AM

What is all this talk about 10 "types" of aliens? WTF :)

At least in Enemy Unknown, Astore.dat is 50 records long. That means it holds 50 aliens max and that limit is shared by all the Alien Containment modules in your bases. Once you fill up that file, that's it. You can't add anymore. But there certainly isn't a limit of 10 types of aliens you can store. For instance, if you manage capture one alien of each race and rank combination possible (27 aliens total ignoring the Cyberdisc and Sectopod which can't survive) all show up in your research screen. It's that simple.

This whole "10 types" myth started with the misunderstanding of how AC worked in the original game. The ufopaedia mentions:

The containment facility can keep up to 10 alien life forms in self contained units.

Now, most players immediately recognized that they were able to hold a lot more aliens than 10 in AC. When the sequel (TFTD) came out, it was believed that the AC problem was solved. Conclusions were drawn and it was put into strategy guides without verifying. It didn't help that TFTD's description of AC was just as vague:

The containment facility can keep 10 Alien life forms in confinement units.

So take what the guides say with a grain of salt. None of the authors were privy to the mechanics of how this facility works.We know differently due to hacking and testing :wink1:

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!




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