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What?! I Downed That Ship!


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#1 Puasonen

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 12:08 AM

In original x-com ufo defense I never went to all crash sites.. I just downed them and my funding points were 'allways' excellent. What if sometimes when you deside to skip a crash site, aliens would be able to fix the ship or there would come a repair ship from a nearest alien base and repair the crashed ship? That would be nice! And the mission would be like downed muton ship AND snakeman repairship at the same time! Of course the repair ship would be full of engineers ^_^
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#2 fux0r666

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 12:47 AM

LOL. That's hillarious. I NEVER even CONSIDERED not attending a crash site... I was always disappointed when they crashed into the ocean.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#3 miceless

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 03:46 AM

I often made sure they crashed into the ocean.

Cant swim Mr Sectoid? Such a shame. :devillaugh:

Edited by miceless, 18 August 2003 - 03:46 AM.

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#4 dipstick

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 04:46 AM

Say, that is a good idea..... I would imagine a repair ship would be medium size, have medium/long range weapons that are light/medium class (get what I mean? - they are good range, but not too powerful) That would mean 1 interceptor should be able to hit it down with dual Avalanche, and sustain mild damage.

I always hated TFTD - no medium USOs?! Come to think of it there were not that many in the original either!
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#5 Puasonen

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 05:00 AM

Say, that is a good idea..... I would imagine a repair ship would be medium size, have medium/long range weapons that are light/medium class (get what I mean? - they are good range, but not too powerful)  That would mean 1 interceptor should be able to hit it down with dual Avalanche, and sustain mild damage.

I always hated TFTD - no medium USOs?!  Come to think of it there were not that many in the original either!

Yes, something like that. I like the idea of it being a medium ufo. It would be a good bonus to medium sized ufos. I think they wouldn't even try to repair allmost entirely destroyed ufos, what brings me to one more idea.
I think intercpetor should take a picture of the crash landed ufo so that you could see how badly it is damaged. It's fully realistic and it would be usefull 'cause I hate battleing over crash landed ufos with no elerium left. Why bother, I leave them there..
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#6 dipstick

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 06:00 AM

hmm, then, there could be a large (bigger) repair ship for large and very large downed ships. Also, they disappear becuase they self-destruct. Maybe, just maybe, once in a while you could have a destroyed UFO that has self-destructed - the aliens are dead, but it did not work properly, and you can land and get some free goodies!
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#7 dipstick

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 06:02 AM

Oh, and the large repair ship would be large UFO with medium weapons strength, and long weapon range - so 2 interceptors should be able to take it down with dual avalanche ( I am assuming that ALL missiles hit though, add 1 interceptor to my estimate for DEFINITELY taking down a ship)
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#8 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 07:30 AM

Well, the repair ship would need to carry a large amount of elerium, and spare navagation, spare power sources. I can imagine it now, 400 units of elerium on the ship.
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#9 j'ordos

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 07:46 AM

I'm going to let some downed ufo's lying around until they come to repair it :naughty:

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#10 Breunor

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 08:47 AM

Of course if the aliens know you shot it down, they'll escort to repair ship to prevent losing both. So include 2 small scout "fighters" that have large scout firepower as cover...

#11 dipstick

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 08:52 AM

Yep, escorts are the order of the day - maybe get terror ships and bships on superhuman as escorts!
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#12 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 09:45 AM

Well, bships would be the only threat to my interceptors with plasma cannons, but They shouldn't be able to prevent you from landing and attacking the ships on the ground, or you could arm your skyrangers with anti fighter weapons.
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#13 dipstick

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 02:27 PM

Ummm, skyrangers = no weapons!
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#14 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 02:31 PM

They can't carry weapons that would take down a alien ufo, but the fighters, I thought would be automated, and small enough to be taken down with a door gun or someone shooting out of the windows.
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#15 dipstick

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 02:36 PM

No, we are talking about escort class UFOs - usually small UFOs, maybe even medium size later on.

Imagine you hit down a bship. In a day or two another UFO appears, a large one - a repair ship. Within a couple of mins, two more appear - one of them Medium and another small. the appear to go in convoy with the repair ship - the escorts. Now you have the option to take out the repair ship before it lands, as well as the escorts - because they will be able to catch you up and intercept YOU when you take out the repair ship; or leave the repair ship to get on with it, and take out ALL FOUR ships on the ground :naughty: (that could prove interesting - have to be NO buildings :devillaugh:) or just let all the ships get on with it and lose mega points!

Edit: this could pave the way for alien artifact area type things; ie multiple alien species.... hmmm :o :explode:

Edited by dipstick, 18 August 2003 - 02:38 PM.

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#16 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 03:46 PM

They could use a triangle around the crash site, they land and when they see a craft they take off and attempt 2 intercept b4 the ship gets 2 the site. I don't think they should do this 4 every craft, like has been said here, only ones with a Commander on it, like a Battleship.

#17 warhamster

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 04:15 PM

Hmmm... I think you guys just defined a new alien mission. 'Alien Rescue'.

But to prevent the over-the-top salvage loot, maybe we can just presume that the repair ships drop off engineers, elerium and some tools to repair the thing. In essence, you'll get a small scout with 20 aliens inside. This should make the b launcher a very nice weapon to have around. :devillaugh:

Also, putting in the idea of escorts will be a little silly. Aliens can't intercept you, or they'll make mince meat of your skyrangers. And it makes it suicide for them to try and shoot down anything with a plasma cannon since that puts interceptors out of range of all alien ships except the battleship.

Unless of course, we plan on planning and implementing a more elaborate aircraft combat routine.

Is that a loaded plasma rifle i hear charging up from the programming department?

#18 Puasonen

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 12:04 AM

I think the repair ship should be medium, that way they won't need escorts 'cause medium is faster than interceptor. (except avenger, firestorm and lighning of course)

I love the idea of new mission 'alien rescue' I agree this should only happen when you drop a battle ship. It makes the mission harder because there's aliens from to ships AND there's two ships, medium and very large.

Also like the idea of huge amount of aliens armed to their teeth 'cause they won't want to lose another ship. That mission would be a good challenge and you should think about it 2 times before you go there. The reward is good, elerium of two ships, spare elerium for repair and all those weapons and corpses to sell!

You can make it easier by dropping both of them and you won't lose points of funding, but you lose all that elerium and that makes it better to go when they are landed.

So, what do you like so far?
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#19 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 02:09 AM

Actually my idea ties in with the squadron idea, if that happens then u could ave Interceptor's escort ur Skyranger, could make 4 some interesting battles, like tryin 2 keep ur Skyranger out of range while the interceptors attack, then if the interceptors get damaged tryin 2 get back 2 base remembering that the Skyranger is slow as fvck :o

#20 Puasonen

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 03:18 AM

Actually my idea ties in with the squadron idea, if that happens then u could ave Interceptor's escort ur Skyranger, could make 4 some interesting battles, like tryin 2 keep ur Skyranger out of range while the interceptors attack, then if the interceptors get damaged tryin 2 get back 2 base remembering that the Skyranger is slow as fvck :o

But that changes the game too much. This isn't Command and Conquer with tiberian harvester escort mission :D
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#21 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 05:31 AM

Would it really change it that much? Have a look at Apoc, they do exactly the same thing, and it was possible to escort the trans, if by manual. The only changes would be that the UFO's could attack u, which should happen ne way IMO, and the squadron idea which is being discussed. It has nothing 2 do with Tiberian Sun.

#22 fux0r666

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 06:14 AM

I think you can probably write off anything with a missile hole in the side of it... even UFO's. There would be a lot of pieces missing and a lot of pieces that connect to those pieces destroyed. The hull and chasis would be deformed and any kind of nook or cranny or machinery or intake on the exterior would be full of dirt and sticks and rocks and what have you.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#23 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 07:44 AM

They could salvage the alloy's tho, and troops, and weaponry, and stop u from getting hold of it. Sounds like a good idea 2 me.

#24 dipstick

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 01:48 PM

Come on, why not?

I think as warhamster says

Unless of course, we plan on planning and implementing a more elaborate aircraft combat routine.


That could prove very interesting.

Also what is wrong with escorts?? As in Interceptor, I think they should be used in this, esp with supply ships for us and the aliens. Yes, thats right US. We should have supply ships drop off supplies from somewhere - maybe even make it country specific (that may be v2). But escorts would be great.

This would logically lead to two new alien missions:
Alien rescue (as said above)
Alien interception - part of alien retaliation!
Plus, imagine the goodies when a large UFO (terror ship?) is crashed, and you take out that PLUS THREE other ships! That could get CRAZY on the battlefield - imagine all of them being etherals!!! (on superhuman/ironman only of course...)
But multispecies combat could be interesting. Maybe you could get caught in a pincer movement which has been unplanned - the sectoids hate the mutons etc...
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#25 Jerry

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 01:59 PM

Reward strategy = Good, give exploit = bad.

I suppose a couple options come to mind. The first is that repair/rescue craft could be quite large/well armed. If you look at non-surgical millitary rescue operations they often involve convoys (ex. The rescue of the downed blackhawk pilots in Somalia).

In this case, letting the downed UFO sit becomes the bait to attract a rich, but difficult target (hey, you get foreknowledge of when and where, it should be difficult).

Another option is that repair craft are actually quite small, carrying either only the essentials, or (worse) having nothing but demolitions charges to destroy the old ship and spare seating to rescue the downed aliens.

Certainly, the more logical and interesting the options we present, the more immersive the game. Never require people to do complex procedures (downing an alien spacecraft, getting out of the way, and waiting) but reqard it.

Also, rescue/repair ships should not come if the area looks "unsafe" to them.

While we are at it, perhaps (especally later / at higher levels) aleins should send deocy ships to then intercept the interceptors; troop ships disguised as terror ships to capture X-COM people, and both sides should be able to do Combat Air Patrols; and of course, lightly damaged ships with good reasources should be able to repair themselves...

#26 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 02:05 PM

Would it be possible to arrive at a crashed ship, kill all the surviving aliens, then set up a trap for the repair ship? So when the sectoid engineers start exiting, completely oblivious to the fact that your guys are out there... :D
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#27 Breunor

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 03:44 PM

Perhaps the best litmus test for what the alien response would be, is how would you respond playing the aliens? Eventually this could be multiplayer, granted there would be lots of changes for balance at that point. But the concept still works. If it was just a scout you'd probably leave it for dead. If it were a battleship or harvester full of supplies you'd go after it. Sending a repair ship into hostile territory is unlikely, you might send as mentioned a recovery craft to get your commander or other top personnel, perhaps to cut the power sources out. Bur repairing the craft would be too risky IMO, it would take too long. If the enemy took out your most powerful ship, how can you expect to send in anything less to recover it? And then you're wasting resources on recovery. I say a small scout would be sent to recover little bits like mentioned.

#28 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 04:14 PM

A small scout? isn't that a little bit extreme?

Well, personally I would (if I was a fat alien brain, mind you) send in a ship to recover everything. maby just strap the scout on the bottom of the recovery ship. :D I want the humans to have NOTHING!!!! :devillaugh:
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#29 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 04:31 PM

Thing is a lot of craft is downed, they can't be arsed to get every craft that gets shot down. They should go after the Commander tho, it means that there would be a new strategy of holding the downed battleship with an interceptor until the Skyranger gets there. If the craft attempted 2 land then it would have 2 first battle the Interceptor. U might even have both craft at the same battlescape if u shoot it down, altho it could be easily explained away as it crashed nearby but not directly on top of the BShip.

#30 Jerry

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 05:53 PM

The aliens know you have to refuel... OTOH, if I were the alien, and none of my NPCs were responding from the ship, I would be tempted to just blow the thing up from orbit... If I caught on to your "deploy and hide" tactic, I'd drop a terror ship on the other side of the Earth.

Perhaps we need to consider changing the interceptor-to-alien balance to allow for such things (assuming that the storyline will accept it).

Edited by Jerry, 19 August 2003 - 05:53 PM.


#31 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 03:45 AM

Thats what I was sayin, prehaps u need 2 interceptor for each med scout, and hangers allow 4 more craft than 1, like Apoc. It wouldn't really effect gameplay much, maybe make tactics in the interceptor window a little more complicated, but it would make it a little easier 2 understand how we are downing these UFO's

#32 Puasonen

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 04:55 AM

More work to vaaish too 'cause he has drawed hangars WITH CRAFTS for base defense if I remember correctly. If it will be changed to multiple craft hangar, it will be difficult to draw I presume..
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#33 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 05:12 AM

I don't think he has done it with craft IIRC, and I imagine it would be a simple scaling issue.

#34 Breunor

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 06:26 AM

He has posted pics of the hangars with craft models put in to test the layout. The base modules are set to a fixed size to interface with the other modules, so I doubt you'd see them larger. You'd just need to make more hangars. On the other hand, the idea IIRC was to increase the base size and layout options after v1 so you could have a dozen hangars in a base if you wanted to do so.

#35 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 09:39 AM

Hmm, interesting. Maybe make the interceptors cheaper, weaker, and make hangers cheaper as well. Then it would make it more realistic IMO, and then u could ave things like formations and the ilk.

#36 Puasonen

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 12:04 AM

Hmm, interesting. Maybe make the interceptors cheaper, weaker, and make hangers cheaper as well. Then it would make it more realistic IMO, and then u could ave things like formations and the ilk.

hmmm.. "interceptors" aren't that cheap in real life either..? So I doubt it would be realistic if they cost less.
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#37 dipstick

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 02:20 PM

Also make hangars quicker to build!
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#38 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 02:25 PM

Hmm, interesting. Maybe make the interceptors cheaper, weaker, and make hangers cheaper as well. Then it would make it more realistic IMO, and then u could ave things like formations and the ilk.

hmmm.. "interceptors" aren't that cheap in real life either..? So I doubt it would be realistic if they cost less.

I dunno, I'd imagine u'd want more than 2 of em tho. The cost things can be worked out l8r, but I just think that 1v1 battles are boring and repetitive. Gameplay b4 realism right?

#39 fux0r666

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 04:28 PM

It wouldn't make things realistic to make them cheaper. As for weaker, fighter aircraft are survivable as long as they aren't hit with anything... It doesn't take many 20mm cannon rounds to the turbojet before you're falling out of the sky like a flaming meteor... and those things have a fraction of the destructive force of air to air missiles.

Interceptors were usually the fastest, most heavily armed (and expensive) aircraft of any given airforce. They're focus is to get off of the ground, in the air and to their target (bombers) in the least possible time.. They usually faired poorly against other fighters, however. Interceptor aircraft as a class died out in the '60's when there was a shift from strategic bombers to icbm's.

There is a running joke in aircraft circles that defines a plane as a series of compromises flying in formation. In the case of the interceptor all effort was put into making the plane be able to get into the air as quickly as possible, destroy the bombers just as quickly, and then land. If performance in the traditional fighter role (that is, fighting other fighters) needs to be sacrificed in order to achieve this, so be it. The result is that interceptors often look very impressive on paper, typically outrunning, outclimbing and outgunning less dedicated designs, yet they tend to fare poorly in combat against those same "less capable" designs.


From Wikipedia, "Interceptor Aircraft."

And I think that the prices and build times of the installations were balanced to keep the player focussed on what's important while keeping the game challenging... besides, these installations and base components are under ground, aren't they? It's not like they can just erect scaffolding and lay sheet metal overtop.. and those hangars had huge turntables to turn the aircraft around and all kinds of messed up stuff in them.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#40 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 04:31 PM

We should move this discussion away from here and 2 the new thread J has created. I see him lurking right now...:ph34r:

#41 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 04:37 PM

Like this?
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Anyway, the interceptors don't (unless using normal cannons) get anywhere near the ufos in the game, it is all done with missiles and long-ranged beam weapons.
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#42 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 04:42 PM

There's the option 2 go closer and use cannon's.

#43 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 05:30 PM

But, who would use cannons? Unless we make them better, they will remain useless.
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#44 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 05:42 PM

Fast rate of fire. In my idea they would become extremely useful. Right, I'll post it here since here is where the question was asked, and I still am not sure how much support there is 4 the idea. Well, here goes...

Basically, it would include both sides having concurrent passes at each other. The formation u decide upon dictates what the interceptors do and the chances of them hitting the target and getting hit themselves ( so allowing 2 protect ur strongest ships, or even a Skyranger ).

So, the closer fighter would have a far greater hit accuracy, less damage coz of the cannon ( unless they are forced 2 use missiles at close range ) but would recieve the brunt of the attack. So, the cannon could be shredding the UFO while the further back fighters are launching missiles.

As the fighters become more damaged they lose mobility and speed, so the more hits u get on them the more hits u can get in the next pass, and the possibility of actually disabling their weapons systems, or blowing up their power source so making them crash. Of cause if u do them 2 much damage they are gonna just blow up, which keeps 2 UFO's basic premise I think.

So, does that improve the cannon enough?

#45 fux0r666

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 06:09 PM

The cannons were useful for downing very small ufo's without destroying their power plants.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#46 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 07:09 PM

Very true, they shouldn't become stronger just more useful.

#47 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 08:21 PM

Wait, very small ufos didn't have powerplants did they? There was just enough space for that lone sectoid!
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#48 fux0r666

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 08:28 PM

Maybe I was thinking about small ones.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#49 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 08:30 PM

Hmm, I can't remember. Err, yeah summint like that. I remember getting some elerium from a craft I had 2 shoot down with the cannon or it just blew up, so it musta been that.

#50 Fimbul

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 01:38 PM

Hm... I think interceptors have to be weak. Which modern interceptor survive any singel blow? <_<

Back to the alien rescue idea, sorry but it was interessting and i'm new :unsure:

Maybe you take down a big alien ship with a lot of interceptors and lost some of them but the ship was important for the aliens(comanders or stuff) they will start a rescue team for it. A repair ship and 2 or more escort ships. Maybe the big ship had also an escort.
So there are 2 ways it can work (for me -_- )

1. your Skyranger is to slow and the alien rescue team is there before you are --> big problem if your SK havn't an escort too. The escort of the alien ship are waiting in the sky to kill any human plane near by. :sly: But if you beat this too you can get two ships together big ship and the rescue ship. But there will be alot aliens, because the rescue team have a strong team of defenders! If you handel this all you will receive alot elerium and other stuff! Maybe for a high price, lots of lost interceptors and soldiers!

2. your Skyranger was with the interceptors maybe a little bit later :D (its so fast ;) ) so you can land before the aliens will arrive. After you did the operation you start and would fly home. Now the aliens wouldn't give up and hunt you to rescue or destroy the important thing of them! Hope you are faster or have a strong escort! ;)

that are my 2 cents :D

And what about escorts who squire a terror ship and when the aliens terrorize the city they circle in the sky to defend the ground troops?
Hard to rescue the civilians ;)

I hope you understand my poor english and i don't rewrite other threads :spank:

Edited by Fimbul, 27 August 2003 - 01:40 PM.