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Screaming Under The Tank!


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#1 Puasonen

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:29 PM

I don't remember seeing this talked about. I got this idea from 'off topic' forum. j'ordos talked something about driving over sectoids with tanks or something, don't remember how it went but anyway I can't take the credit of this idea, j'ordos can.
It's stupid that you can't drive over people/aliens/bushes/trees or through walls with tank. Let's face it, in real life tanks can 'easily' drive through a forrest wich don't have even enough space to walk! They crush everything. Why aren't we implementing this into the game? Ok, if we make them as good as in real life, who would use anything else but they should get over at least bushes and trees? Wooden walls?

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#2 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:35 PM

I like it.

But would hovertanks still run over stuff? What about cyberdiscs? How about sectopods, could they walk over stuff?

I think that tanks should be able to run over/through anything except large metal objects (skyrangerm lamppost, ufo walls.)
They should at least be able to run over units that take up one square
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#3 j'ordos

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 02:05 PM

Nypp, I like your honesty :wave:
You could have easily said it was your idea and I wouldn't have known it was mine ^_^
Thank you! :beer:

Anyway, these tanks are not the 65 tons armored battle behemoths as seen in Iraq nowadays, they're only small ROV's. But I admit, I really hated the fact in Xcom that a simple hedge could stop your tank :( Letting it drive through concrete walls might be a tad much for it, but hedges, wooden fences, Sectoids ( :naughty: ) should be possible. Hovertanks could fly, so they wouldn't need it that hard, but they might be able to even break through concrete, and the Sectopod and Cyberdisk should get through that with ease too.
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#4 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 02:16 PM

Well, these Rovs could probably get through concrete (provided it is not too thick. The walls we have on old terrorsites would be fine) And they should definitely be able to get through wooden walls, (small) trees, and the occasional sectoid/floater/snakeman/etherial/anything but muton,sectopod, C. Disk, reaper.
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Posted 20 August 2003 - 02:56 PM

Nypp, I like your honesty :wave: 
You could have easily said it was your idea and I wouldn't have known it was mine ^_^
Thank you! :beer:

Anyway, these tanks are not the 65 tons armored battle behemoths as seen in Iraq nowadays, they're only small ROV's. But I admit, I really hated the fact in Xcom that a simple hedge could stop your tank :( Letting it drive through concrete walls might be a tad much for it, but hedges, wooden fences, Sectoids ( :naughty: ) should be possible. Hovertanks could fly, so they wouldn't need it that hard, but they might be able to even break through concrete, and the Sectopod and Cyberdisk should get through that with ease too.

Yeah, that kinda defeated the object of a tank, which is a mobile ALL terrain weapons platform. At least that's what I thought. Hey, I can't find the pic of our tanks, do they have catapillar treads? if so then they should be able 2 run over things half their height, maybe with a x2 TU penalty depending on size of obstacle.

#6 j'ordos

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 02:59 PM

They have caterpillar threads, look for pics here
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Posted 20 August 2003 - 03:01 PM

Hmm, maybe half their height was ambitious it would fall over. Erm, dunno, I doubt if that thing could get over a hedge 2 be honest, so maybe goin over stuff is a bad idea, I dunno.

#8 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 04:08 PM

A heavy person can beat down a hedge, so surely a small robot tank would be able to. Besides, its weight and engine power, not height that matter. :D
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#9 j'ordos

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 04:18 PM

I concur. It does not have to go over the hedge, but through the hedge ^_^ , that's something entirely different. What it needs is enough power and weight to sit in front of a wall, ram it (of course it needs some armour too :D ), and break it.
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#10 Puasonen

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 12:00 AM

I love the picture in my mind when I'm safe in a wooden building and suddenly a sectopod runs through a wall and shoots him :alienmad: This is a MUST and I can see it in my mind what facehugger suggested that it would be impossible to drive over muton. Muton just stands there like a superman keepin' the tank away with just hands! LOVE it!
Metal fences, bushes and 2 squares wide doors should be a snack to tanks. PLEASE! I mean what the he11 was that about in original where tanks OPENED doors?? :LOL:
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#11 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 08:15 AM

I love the picture in my mind when I'm safe in a wooden building and suddenly a sectopod runs through a wall and shoots him  :alienmad: This is a MUST and I can see it in my mind what facehugger suggested that it would be impossible to drive over muton. Muton just stands there like a superman keepin' the tank away with just hands! LOVE it!
Metal fences, bushes and 2 squares wide doors should be a snack to tanks. PLEASE! I mean what the he11 was that about in original where tanks OPENED doors??    :LOL:

Simple! The tanks had invisible robot arms! Thats it!

Good to know that people like my and j'ordos' ideas.
Alien terrorist robots should be able to run through walls and get to your guys on the other side.

I was thinking that mutons and any terrorist that takes up 4 squares would be immune to squishing.

Thin concrete walls, wood walls, doors of all types (unless we have really thick steel doors in xcom bases) Walls with windows, Tanks should be able to drive over it. Mutons and dudes in power armor should be able to expend a few tus punching through the stuff a tank/sectopod could go through.
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#12 Breunor

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 09:27 AM

I agree that the various HWP and aliens have an additional physical charging attack. The HWP probably weighs up to 1000 pounds/ 450kg or so, but it might have problems with concrete. It has more TUs than a person, so it's moving maybe 25 MPH, which is a lot of momentum. I think that all eligible units in v1+ could have a physical attack to deal with this. Anything directly in front of them could be "charged". If the attack exceeds the walls HPs, it breaks through and uses TUs doing so. If it has enough TUs left it can then move through to the other side. For a unit, perhaps the target's reaction time would be comapred to determine a hit? It represents the chance to dodge out of the way. A hit wouldn't necessarilly run them over, it might knock them back like a concussive blast effect. Perhaps if enough damage is done to kill them you could have a 'roll over' animation? If you missed with the charge, would the unit roll past and turn around, or stop where it initiated the attack? How would the target move on a miss? I'm trying to figure out how it would look realistic regarding the animations.

#13 j'ordos

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 03:01 PM

There's another thing I just thought of about the tanks you start with, the rocket tank to be more precise: there were only high explosive rockets for it, but why wouldn't it be able to use incendiary tank rockets? :naughty: . I think it would be cool to be able to load up your tank with a couple of regular HE rockets and a few IC rockets, (or a full complement of only HE or IC), with the option to select what rocket should be fired next. It's not something very important, granted, but it would make sense and be nice to have in a night fight :devilburn:
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#14 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 03:06 PM

Yes, incindieary tank rockets would extend the rocket tanks usefulness.

I also feel that if the target wasn't hit on the first squishing attempt, that it would roll to the side and fry the tank/ sectopod/ whatever. If it was hit, then I would like to hear a squishing sound, a lot like what they had in the original c&c.
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#15 Breunor

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 05:43 PM

A squishing, crunching sound, and a modified texture for the tracks to show a bloody smear. Muahaha! :devillaugh:

#16 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 05:57 PM

Yes bruenor, that is excactly what is needed!
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#17 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 06:04 PM

And people thought my dismemberment was too graphic -_-

#18 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 06:08 PM

People are, by nature queasy.
", , , uhh, sir? Yes Sargent? You are kind of running over civilians. Really? Oops, sucks to be them."
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#19 Kenshiro

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 07:43 PM

And then X-Corps got kicked out of South Korea, almost...

You should definately be able to trample down bushes with the HWP, if not your X-Corps men. Especially if they have armored suits. Wooden structures seem pretty likely candidates for the HWPs to be able to run right through also.

That always ticked me off about X-Com - your whole squad could get stuck if you had one guy out of TUs at the front of the line in a 1-square wide opening between brush. You'd think they could find someway through those bushes.

#20 Breunor

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 09:06 AM

"But sarge, those thorns could put out an eye! And there's poison ivy in there, I just know it!" :crying:

I would like to see the body go spread eagled under the tank, and as the crunching sounds are heard the hands and feet you see sticking out burst and blood goes shooting out a few feet. We can get textures from rotten.com for the models. How does that sound Jim? :D Or you could plow into a unit and pin it against the wall, have a scream and squirming animation as their death thrashing. If the unit's squatting, the chassis would squish the head against the wall, and make it burst like a Gallagher watermelon!
:explode:

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 09:47 AM

Ahh, that would satisfy my blood urge 4 a while :)

#22 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 01:15 PM

Bruenor, I know you are just joking, but those are actually good ideas that could be implemented soon after v1.

I also think that alien tech hwps (and alien robot terrorists themselves) should be able to go through concrete. I mean, they have all this elerium, why can't they use it to build up speed and plow through this concrete wall?
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#23 Kenshiro

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 07:06 AM

Just imagine...

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Edited by Kenshiro, 05 September 2003 - 07:07 AM.


#24 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 08:17 AM

She's next on my tank's list of who to squish... :D
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#25 fux0r666

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 05:43 PM

I like the idea but I don't know if that feature ought to be implimented without some sort of 'saving throw' or 'percent chance to hit' because I don't think that it would be very difficult to avoid a washing machine that stumbles around at 30 km/h on a flat surface (less, I would imagine, over rough terrain).

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#26 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 06:09 PM

Very true, I like the idea of squishing bushes and things tho. Dunno bout walls, ne1 actually seen the scale of the thing? It isn't much bigger than a washing machine, so Fux isn't far off :)

#27 j'ordos

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 06:32 PM

Well, I'm not sure about concrete walls either, but a wooden shack? Definitely crushable :D
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#28 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 06:38 PM

It's the same height as a soldier, and the tracks come up 2 below waist height so nething taller than that and it would just bump into it. Which is why I wanted it taller coz at the mo the catapiller tracks are pretty much useless.

#29 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 06:44 PM

Let me see. You are right about the chance to miss, fux0r, I think it should be based on reaction time of the unit in question. (You have to remember that each turn is 3 seconds.)

And about the concrete vs tanks thing, Id say that normal (human tech) hwps should only be able to go through weak concrete or brick. Alien tech hwps (and alien terrorist machines) should be able to go through anything they want. I mean, they are elerium powered, so that must give them a lot of spare juice to put into the engines.

Lastly, it isn't size that matters! It is weight and momentum! An armored car the size of a washingmachine going at 200 mph will go through a concrete wall faster than a normal sized armored car going at 100 mph.

Edit: Jim, if the object was going fast enough, then nothing would be able to stand in its way. Trees would be no obstacle for a hwp going at a reasonable velocity (California redwoods excluded) Tall rocks would be pushed, about the only thing an hwp couldn't beat down is ufo walls.

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 05 September 2003 - 06:48 PM.

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#30 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 06:45 PM

It's going 2 have little 2 no momentum, will be goin a top speed of 30mph and have little weight.

#31 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 06:50 PM

What do you mean 30mph? Each turn is 3 seconds, it can move really fast even in uneven terrain. In three seconds it can move about 200 feet!

Maby you are right, but I figure that it is the future so we can say that minitanks can beat down concrete.
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#32 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 08:08 PM

AFAIK each turn is just under 10 seconds.

Edit: 200ft? It could move 3x as fast as a soldier, which is under 30mph.

Edited by Jim69, 05 September 2003 - 08:09 PM.


#33 fux0r666

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 12:13 AM

Size matters because it's easier to move out of the way of you only have to step 1.5 meters than it would be if you had to step 5.

Not even an M1 abrahms can defeat a highway median at 50 mph. It smashed the median a bit, hopped up onto it and then highcentered and was stuck there. I doubt it would be able to smash through the walls of a house or a barn, either. It would probably be able to put a hole in it but I think it would probably take several (way more than a few) tries to get it through. The initial part of the tank would hit at a trajectory that's perpendicular to the wall (sheering force)- forces that it's most vulnerable to. As it continued through, it would be trying to fit through like a wedge. The contact of the hull of the tank would be pushing upwards on the structure of the barn or house (compressing force) - forces that the stucture was built to withstand.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#34 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 06:47 AM

Jim, Doesn't Bruenor say each turn is 3 seconds? I rember a number of topics where this was mentioned. I'll try to find them.

Anyway fux0r, you are forgetting the one fundamental fact of xenocide: It is a game, so if we want to make our tanks cool and be able to drive through walls and stuff, we can do that.
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#35 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 07:12 AM

Jim, Doesn't Bruenor say each turn is 3 seconds? I rember a number of topics where this was mentioned. I'll try to find them.

Anyway fux0r, you are forgetting the one fundamental fact of xenocide: It is a game, so if we want to make our tanks cool and be able to drive through walls and stuff, we can do that.

It's a matter of opinion how fast they move. And the fact is that the tank moves 2-3 times more squares than a human in 1 turn, Humans walk at 4mph so the tank must move at a maximim of 12mph. I think I could dodge that.

Edited by Jim69, 06 September 2003 - 07:12 AM.


#36 j'ordos

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 07:55 AM

At any rate, we could all agree on tanks being able to drive over a stupid hedge or bush, right? :D
Maybe they couldn't drive over other creatures (unless they're incapacitated and lying helplessly on the ground :naughty: ), but they surely should be able to remove a sectoid from it's position, I mean by that: your HWP comes rolling over, and there's a sectoid in front of the door, but you don't have the TU's to shoot it anymore. In the original that ment: wait outside with your HWP, but what if we could make it so that you can drive on top of the little bugger (well, you attempt that anyway :devillaugh: ), but since it's rather slow the critter will have time to get out of the way. So, it goes aside a metre, giving your tank the chance to drive through the door.
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#37 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 07:58 AM

Correct J'ordos, the only aliens that should not be crushable are mutons and 4 square terrorists.

I feel that the crushee's chance to escape should be based on his reactions.
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#38 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:11 AM

That chance would ave 2 be quite high.

#39 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:15 AM

50/50. Any more chance to escape, and no one will use it. Any less and people might be angry.
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Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:23 AM

How many peeps ave 2 ever seen run over by a car going at 15mph. I think some grannies could avoid that, let alone a Sectoid.

#41 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 01:38 PM

15mph? The tank must be going faster than that...
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#42 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:24 PM

Go play the game, find out how many squares it moves per turn compared 2 a soldier with no armour and carrying nothing. A man can walk at about 3mph, and run at about 5 so work it out from there.

#43 fux0r666

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 10:24 PM

The argument for having the UCGV being able to plow through walls was based in reality. I was countering it based on reality. Besides, you don't want to offend any of these gamers' common sense. The demograph that plays strategic simulations is usually quite brainy, I would think.

Edited by fux0r666, 06 September 2003 - 10:30 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#44 Breunor

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 10:14 AM

I think there's 2 parts here to consider. First, the soldiers in game are running by default, and even without armor they still have basic equipment and weapons that add say 30 pounds. Sprinting around IMO they could go at 15mph for the amount of time we're considering. Maybe more or less, but let's say that's the average. The HWP tends to have a little more TUs starting out, so it's moving 20mph for an example. Whether it catches an alien by surprise or their timing's off, there's a good chance for it to hit them, given it can move as fast as they can, unless they just run circles around it while it sits and spins.

If it does hit, you've got about 1000 pounds of metal shoving you along. Either your legs are clipped and you're knocked out of the way, or your feet dig in and you're levered flat to the ground and pressed into the earth none too gently.

For the first part, I think reaction skill is the key for avoiding a physical attack of any kind. It doesn't matter how big or strong you are until you are dealing damage. Once you've been hit, then you decide what happens. A large unit like a sectopod would not be run over due to size, and mutons or other strong units might have a better chance to bounce off the HWP rather than fall. So each alien could be given a physical resistence rating that determines the chance of the HWP doing a rollover rather than a bounce.

#45 Deimos

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 11:27 AM

Speaking from personal experience, reactions aren't always helpful.
I used to work and captain a 20 tonne 60ft boat (classified as a ship). When docking the boat wasn't allowed to exceed 4mph. It doesn't sound like much but the forces involved in stopping it are enormous. This particular day the weather was bad and there was a high wind which increased the boat's speed. I don't know how much by as I wasn't driving at the time. I was responsible for tying it off and making it secure for docking.

The wind caught the boat as I was on the dock fending it off for a smooth landing and basically pushed most of me out of the way.

Well this slow moving 4mph boat not only didn't care that I was in the way (and I'm not a small guy at 6'3" and 50" chest) but it decided that my leg wasn't there either and bent it around 45 degrees the wrong way.

The moral is that no matter how fast your reactions are, if you get caught you get caught and there's nothing you can do about it. Newton's laws are a bitch if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

In the case of a Hwp in a combat zone, the fog of war in full effect it isn't going to be clear to the enemy that the hwp is going to splat him, especially if the alien has been spotted by your guys and is under fire. There's only so much attention that can be given and under fire its going to be concentrated at the little pieces of lead that are incoming at high velocity. :) Tanks that are big and slow figure much lower on the threat assessment scale.

#46 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 11:36 AM

I think there's 2 parts here to consider. First, the soldiers in game are running by default, and even without armor they still have basic equipment and weapons that add say 30 pounds. Sprinting around IMO they could go at 15mph for the amount of time we're considering. Maybe more or less, but let's say that's the average. The HWP tends to have a little more TUs starting out, so it's moving 20mph for an example. Whether it catches an alien by surprise or their timing's off, there's a good chance for it to hit them, given it can move as fast as they can, unless they just run circles around it while it sits and spins.

If it does hit, you've got about 1000 pounds of metal shoving you along. Either your legs are clipped and you're knocked out of the way, or your feet dig in and you're levered flat to the ground and pressed into the earth none too gently.

For the first part, I think reaction skill is the key for avoiding a physical attack of any kind. It doesn't matter how big or strong you are until you are dealing damage. Once you've been hit, then you decide what happens.  A large unit like a sectopod would not be run over due to size, and mutons or other strong units might have a better chance to bounce off the HWP rather than fall. So each alien could be given a physical resistence rating that determines the chance of the HWP doing a rollover rather than a bounce.

U can run at 15mph :o I know I can't get near that, I'm more like about 8. I'm not even sure olimpic sprinters run that fast tho I'd ave 2 check.

Edit: I think u'd hear the tank comin 2wards u from quite some distance. A better analogy than the boat ( ouch btw ) is a car. U walk out onto the road. U hear a car ( I can hear a car from some distance on a fairly noisy place so a rural area...) look around and see a granny goin 15mph down the road about 40m away. U could dodge that easy ( I am very stupid and often walk out in the road without lookin when I'm drunk and ain't been run over yet ). Tanks are a heck of a lot louder than cars.

Edited by Jim69, 08 September 2003 - 11:40 AM.


#47 j'ordos

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 11:47 AM

This is a very small one of course, and maybe with a silent engine (or good insulation). I can imagine they'd design that thing more for scouting than actual combat, I mean more of an emphasis on remaining undetected than on heavy armour protection (of course it's still armoured, but not anywhere near an M1 or Leopard2)
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#48 Deimos

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 12:04 PM

Just checked, the average speed of an olympic spriner is 23-25mph. If a 100m sprint takes 9secs its basically a distance over time equasion.

Lets take your car analogy and extrapolate it a little further. The problem is that you're thinking in singular terms. It'd be dead easy to step out of the way if the car was on the road even if it were doing 60mph. But add in some smoke, flames and 6 people trying to kill you with bullets and the dynamic changes totally. You won't notice the car at all because it isn't a proity. Yes tanks are loud but not that much louder than a car. We're not talking the clanky WW2 tanks here but ultramodern vehicles, maybe even running off an electrical powersource.

But for the purposes of the arguement it has a multifuel motor maybe 2litre which is reasonable for the size of vehicle we're discussing. Its going to be well put together and wll serviced so it isn't as noisy as you imagine it would be.

Add in the multilple sounds of gunfire, explosions and so on and you create the kind of confusion that is called the fog of war. Under these conditions especially if its you that they're trying to kill your prioities change from spotting a "noisy" tank to if I don't get the if-you-see-Kay down I'm dead. Also remember that it's not some Granny that'll be driving the tank but a highly skilled tank operator.

The fact is under those circumstances you probably wouldn't realise you were about to be made into pizza until the tank was on top of you, which would bring it down to what I call the law of squishy things. Reaction and you've got a split second to make it. Either move out of the way of 2 tonnes of HWP and avoid getting squished or have multiple holes from the incoming bullets/schrapnel.

#49 fux0r666

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 12:12 PM

I disagree. If there was a 6 foot robot with a cannon on the top rolling towards me at 30 mph, my attention would probably be on that.

If there were people shooting at me and there was a guy stepping up to stab me, I would not ignore the guy with the shiv in order to pay more attention to the bullets. I think that the movie, 'blackhawk down' probably illustrates threat assessment quite well. Even though the Rangers and Deltas were being fired at by numerous foes, they took the time out to try and neutralize the truck mounted heavy machineguns first.

If the tracks on the HWP are metal links they would make a substancial racket rolling around, even with rubber pads. The brilliance about the human ear and the human mind is that you can hear multiple frequencies, amplitudes and guage them directionally simultaneously. I assume that the evolutionary conditions on the other planets would yield similar results to relevently similar life forms. On species that have subhuman situational awareness, though, I would be able to conceive of a 1000 lb tank sneaking up BEHIND an alien. Most alien species in XCom are said to be predatory species and therefor would have all the bells and whistles associated with predatory habits, ie. polinocular, colour vision (able to distinguish photons of various energies as opposed to just the number of photons hitting the retina), directional hearing and other senses developed for target and threat perception, aquisition and tracking.

Since there is no real attack, only a strike.. ie. There is no feignt or weapon skill involved that one would normally see in melee combat, one would be able to avoid the tank if he had one square's worth of TU's left for movement in the reaction phase.

Edited by fux0r666, 08 September 2003 - 12:27 PM.


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#50 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 12:20 PM

Just checked, the average speed of an olympic spriner is 23-25mph. If a 100m sprint takes 9secs its basically a distance over time equasion.

Lets take your car analogy and extrapolate it a little further. The problem is that you're thinking in singular terms. It'd be dead easy to step out of the way if the car was on the road even if it were doing 60mph. But add in some smoke, flames and 6 people trying to kill you with bullets and the dynamic changes totally. You won't notice the car at all because it isn't a proity. Yes tanks are loud but not that much louder than a car. We're not talking the clanky WW2 tanks here but ultramodern vehicles, maybe even running off an electrical powersource.

But for the purposes of the arguement it has a multifuel motor maybe 2litre which is reasonable for the size of vehicle we're discussing. Its going to be well put together and wll serviced so it isn't as noisy as you imagine it would be.

Add in the multilple sounds of gunfire, explosions and so on and you create the kind of confusion that is called the fog of war. Under these conditions especially if its you that they're trying to kill your prioities change from spotting a "noisy" tank to if I don't get the if-you-see-Kay down I'm dead. Also remember that it's not some Granny that'll be driving the tank but a highly skilled tank operator.

The fact is under those circumstances you probably wouldn't realise you were about to be made into pizza until the tank was on top of you, which would bring it down to what I call the law of squishy things. Reaction and you've got a split second to make it. Either move out of the way of 2 tonnes of HWP and avoid getting squished or have multiple holes from the incoming bullets/schrapnel.

Maybe there should be a chance of noticing it, factoring in sound etc. If there is smoke they are less likely 2 see it, if there is someting louder around they may not hear it, if they are facing the wrong way etc. The fact of the caterpiller tracks grinding on hard stuff and running over trees will make more noise etc.