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Do The Aliens Have Better Vision ?


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#1 Duvel

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 09:12 AM

Hi all,

I knew it, I just knew I couldn't live without it. After a four year break I just had to install the x-com series again and start saving the world ™. After leveling cydonia and sending the great dreamer (or whatever he was called) to his final sleep, I started on the most unfamiliar one of the series so far: Apocalypse.

Just by lurking on these forums I learned much that I needed to know, thanks to some master strategists, you know who. :master:

Oh and BurnThemAll, you really are a god of fire. Thank you too so much for making the game so much more enjoyable (the roof, the roof, the roof is on fire :D )

Happily cruising with enough money in the bank, had to do a lot of raids on the cult to get it. (didn't know about stun raids then). So I'm facing those big guns (I think they're devastators, but I'm still researching.

Anyway, one real question remains. Do those buggin' aliens have extra-vision or something ? Because in every mission they start firing before I can see them (with or without smoke, it's worse with smoke).
Or is it because they use devastator weapons with a better range than my disruptors and toxiguns ? That way I should be able to see them, but can't fire on 'm (yet). :hammer:

Help is appreciated ! And maybe a shrink to rid me of this d*mn addiction.

Cheers ! :beer:

Duvel (back to the addiction).

#2 Blehm 98

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 10:14 AM

cult always shoots you.
as for devastators, have you ever seen them on the 5th day of gameplay?
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#3 Duvel

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 10:31 AM

Hmm, true. The cult always shoots me, but so do the aliens. Only the aliens can see me (eg. shoot me) while I can't see them.

If the cult opens fire, I can see them and return fire.

So the question remains: Do the aliens have better vision ?

Oh and about the devastator, I'm in my third week, so No, never as fast as in the 5th day OMG . How did you manage ?

I did have three lobsterman walk out of the USO, each patted my rookie-suicide-scout on the back and walked back in. I subsequently sacked the rookie, he probably was in league with 'm :Rant: (he always refused my lobster soup, so I should've known B) ).
But that was in TFTD of course. :OffTopic:

Duvel

#4 Blehm 98

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 11:13 AM

Hmmm, if you are far enough(i got shields and cloaks within a week or so) then the aliens could have cloaking devices, which really suck when you are getting shot at with devastators and entropy missiles from a very close distance yet you can't see them
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#5 Cheshire

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 11:53 AM

I don't think that the aliens have better vision in general. (Maybe they do at the harder levels, but I don't think so).

1) If the aliens are cloaking and you are not, then they can see you from much farther away than you can see them.

2) Even when the aliens don't have cloak, once in a while, you will get the "Foo Bar is taking fire" message when a particular alien can see you.

Either way, the best solution is either to (1) cloak all your guys too or (2) pay attention to where the fire is coming from and either charge that position or flank it.

Flanking works well - if your guy drops prone, it's unlikely that he'll be hit, and while the bad guy is trying, you can sneak another squad around the side of the alien's position.

Alternately, if you have a pretty good idea where the fire is coming from, you can always throw a grenade or stun grenade at the alien's position to try to flush him out.

#6 NKF

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 02:14 PM

The aliens may have a minor edge, but I think it's more of a case of them seeing you before you see them.

Here's a tip: If you've deployed smoke grenades and you know where the aliens are (where the bullets are coming from), force attack into the smoke (or out of it, if that's the case). If hit, they'll be revealed and your soldier will continue shooting at it. This also works if the aliens are well beyond your visible range but your gun's range extends beyond that.

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#7 Blehm 98

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 04:04 PM

yeah, when my men are being shot by cloaked aliens, i toss a smoke grenade and charge forward, even skeletoids can't survive long in close quarters combat
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#8 Yoni

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 11:15 AM

I was going to ask a similar question, but not just about the aliens. I've been mainly doing raids against cult of sirius and it seems my soldiers are very slow to spot them.
Most of the time my soldiers are kneeling next to doors waiting for cult members to walk through. But I always hear and see the door opening, and then it always takes a while (even on slow) before the cult member appears on the screen. Most often he's already walked a few squares through the door, is already kneeling or has already fired a shot before my guys get to see him.
Is this normal? Does it have to do with calculations in the game or might my pc be running the game wrong?

#9 Pherdnut

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 01:11 PM

I was going to ask a similar question, but not just about the aliens. I've been mainly doing raids against cult of sirius and it seems my soldiers are very slow to spot them.
Most of the time my soldiers are kneeling next to doors waiting for cult members to walk through. But I always hear and see the door opening, and then it always takes a while (even on slow) before the cult member appears on the screen. Most often he's already walked a few squares through the door, is already kneeling or has already fired a shot before my guys get to see him.
Is this normal? Does it have to do with calculations in the game or might my pc be running the game wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Never noticed a vision issue in turn based. Smoke grenades work nicely for spotting an alien and then blocking his vision so he can't fire back at you.

#10 Redbull

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 10:08 AM

I was going to ask a similar question, but not just about the aliens. I've been mainly doing raids against cult of sirius and it seems my soldiers are very slow to spot them.
Most of the time my soldiers are kneeling next to doors waiting for cult members to walk through. But I always hear and see the door opening, and then it always takes a while (even on slow) before the cult member appears on the screen. Most often he's already walked a few squares through the door, is already kneeling or has already fired a shot before my guys get to see him.
Is this normal? Does it have to do with calculations in the game or might my pc be running the game wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The door opens... 1 sec.... 2 sec... see the alien... normal to me.

I never kneel now just in front of a door. Always wait at least ~10 fields away. So they normaly do not throw grenades towards my soldiers.

Best wishes
Redbull

#11 Yoni

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 04:44 PM

The thing is, by the time I get to see them, they are already firing a rocket or have just released a grenade. They always get to see my men a few seconds before I get to see theirs. And there are no smoke grenades or anything of the like involved. It's always like that, no matter the circumstances.

#12 Jonaleth Irenicus

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 05:27 AM

That's the usual case, I think the computer cheats a little (or there is a delay with the player's vision or something). There's always a pause for a sec before I spot something that has entered my field of vision (usually in that second they throw grenade or launch rocket etc...)

A good tactic to counter this is to stand to the side of the door rather than right in front of it (if you are ambushing waiting behind a door).
Passenger ship terror site, first turn, I open the door of my Triton, there is a Tasoth up on the next floor (his back is facing the screen so I don't know what weapon he has).

One of my guys fire at him, hit, he reaction fires with Thermal Shock Launcher. The whole crew stunned. Mission over.

#13 NKF

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Posted 17 March 2006 - 06:05 AM

Well, if you've ever noticed how the map updates itself whenever it clears the fog of war for the various sectors in the map that you visit (anyone notice that it clears it in large blocks rather than tile by tile like in the first two games? Shows they've cut a few corners there), you'll probably notice how these dark blocks don't become fully visible right away or they don't always reveal everything there is to see in the area.

For example, you open the door to an apartment. You take a quick look inside then move on to the next room. The inside of the apartment won't always become visible. Even if it does, you won't immediately notice any equipment that's lying around or any civilians or aliens in the room. You have to stare in the general direction for a few seconds until the game runs a vision update for items and units that the agent can see.

So you do have a minor disadvantage in that it takes you a few moments longer to actually see anything at the edge of your vision. It's amazing how many times I've waited around a corner only to spot a popper with a lead of a few tiles before I can react to it. The other fact that adds salt to this sort of wound is the incredibly long delay before the your soldiers react. Manual firing is faster, but it's still too slow to react to a tight popper corner encounter.

Rely on your scanners to give you a general idea of nearby aliens and with a squad of soldiers armed with devestators, feel free to blanket an area with gunfire if you think there are aliens there that you cannot see. Also, in real time, if you're in a hurry to take down an enemy, pause and order your soldiers to open fire rather than waste a few seconds before the agents suddenly decide to react.

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#14 Jonaleth Irenicus

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Posted 17 March 2006 - 07:57 AM

This is why a squad of 36 androids all equipped with dual devastator cannons on full auto is fun. You end up blanketing the entire area in disruptor bolts ^_^
Passenger ship terror site, first turn, I open the door of my Triton, there is a Tasoth up on the next floor (his back is facing the screen so I don't know what weapon he has).

One of my guys fire at him, hit, he reaction fires with Thermal Shock Launcher. The whole crew stunned. Mission over.

#15 Aiki-Knight

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:50 PM

Proximity mines will get 'em. Mine the door, while your agents are safely far away with good arcs of fire on the doorway. Door opens, and BOOM. Someone is there. He's not happy, but he's there. Then force-fire. Autocannons with explosive ammo are good for this kind of thing with their area-effect.

Only problem with proximity mines is that they don't seem to detect brainsuckers, and won't usually detect floating aliens like Psimorphs and skeletoids. But for cultists, they work like a charm.

#16 Diemex

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 07:42 PM

My experience has been that the aliens have better vision.

In some cases (spitters) this can be explained by them 'sensing' you via PSI rather than actual line of sight.

But Skellys and Anthropods seem to have better vision. I can pop a smoke grenade and become blind... unable to see them... but they still see and shoot at me. In fact smoke grenades seem to be rather useless to me as they can see through them and I cannot.

Doesnt anyone find it strange btw that aliens are using megapol standard issue smoke grenades ?

#17 Outlawstar15a2

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 01:19 AM

Proximity mines will get 'em. Mine the door, while your agents are safely far away with good arcs of fire on the doorway. Door opens, and BOOM. Someone is there. He's not happy, but he's there. Then force-fire. Autocannons with explosive ammo are good for this kind of thing with their area-effect.

Only problem with proximity mines is that they don't seem to detect brainsuckers, and won't usually detect floating aliens like Psimorphs and skeletoids. But for cultists, they work like a charm.


Thats funny my sister was watching a horror movie wone time where this retarded guy kept screaming, Mine the door. But I didn't understand by "mine the door." He wasn't a soldier and he had no mines to put on the door. It was funny to say the least.

Edited by Outlawstar15a2, 12 January 2007 - 01:19 AM.


#18 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 10:57 PM

Im pretty sure that its all about the "Reaction time" Stat ;)
if the agent dont notice, he dont react
Me: Magic Eight Ball, do alien beings inhabit the earth?

Eight Ball: For the love of God, would you stop jiggling me! How can I predict the future when I'm about to throw up?!

#19 Pherdnut

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 07:58 AM

Anybody know if height effects visual range? That's the only time I've never noticed a discrepancy, but it might have been a terrain thing too.

#20 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 09:22 AM

..Hmm.. That could make alot of sense..

For some reason alot of my agents dont notice brain suckers, multiworms, hyperworms, or the green blobs on the floor.

Yet I can always see that stupid spitter clear as day..
And the Multispawn seems to just pop out of the ship instantly being seen...
I think that Size DOES affect what you see. :o

Oh wait are you talking about floor level? Cause thats the Angle that you can see on.

Agents cant see directly above them. its kinda funny :o
The armour doesnt let them tilt their heads back!
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#21 Nepereta

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 06:48 AM

I tend to notice the vision capabilities in this game are simple. If any of your team can see X then anyone in your team can shoot them.

Also it seems you can also see units you have just shot.

Aliens have cloaks earlier than you + they also use those little head hopper things which give them a great 'wizard eye' capability.

To gain vision superiority:

1) Use smoke on your rear sniping line ( make it totally invisible) they don't actually need to see anyone.

2) Use forward spotters which are airborne + cloaked ( keep a decent distance of 10-15 squares) and don't draw attention to themselves Psionics are a good thing here.

3) use the scanner.

However the major caveat is:

Your psi trooper need line of sight to a particular foe to initiate psi combat.

Using a rear firing line of disruptor cannons covered by smoke ( when neccessary) 2 to 3 hover troops using cloaks and psi weapons.

Moderate accuracy where neccessary and be carefull that your scouts/ firing line do not end up inside the firing solution.

Counter Ambush: Most military maxims seem to suggest that Ambushes need to be defeated by overwhelming return firepower.

When ambushed by a cloak unit use the entire firing line to smoke that unit out using auto fire 'shift-clicking' near the origin of the shot.

With 10 man line soon enough a shot will hit and decloak the enemy.

Use and abuse shift-click fire-at-a-spot combined with autofire, scanners and disruptor cannons. Do this and you will kill many enemies outside your visual range. Even before ambush becomes a possiblity.

Caveat: This usually results in major collateral damage ( not always a bad thing) and high ammo expenditures. Great in saucer/punitive raids + disruptor cannons. A zero tolerance disruptor cannon raid seems to cause about 50k worth of damages to the owning org. I generally rotate through several fire teams shift-clicking on auto fire until that fireteam hits 30% ammo. Usually several minutes of autofire generally wastes most buildings and causes a large number of enemy casualities.

Heres a little diagram


|S S|
| |
| F F F F F F |
_____________________

Cloaked psi-spotters reside at 'East' and 'West' boundary with a high as possible and still usable vertical ( make sure you have a clear view and out of the fire teams firing solution).

Fire team lies down in a line at the boundary.