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#1 fux0r666

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 01:27 PM

Does the GNU license agreement apply to works of art, images or other that are linked to?

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#2 Micah

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 01:53 PM

Red Knight or I will answer this soon, as I am not certain. I do know that anything that will be included in Xenocide must eventually fall under the license. I can also tell you that this doesn't mean you lose any right to them. You are free to make changes to the materials and do what you want with it. It just can't be taken by someone else and included in a commercial product (like a game that is put up for sale).

#3 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 02:02 PM

I think his concern is that he would like 2 use his artwork in a portfolio for a college course or summint like that, and IIRC isn't RK doing the same thing with the structure and code that he personally has worked on? I could be wrong.

#4 fux0r666

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 02:37 PM

My concern is kind of two fold. One, I don't want to lose control of my intellectual property. I would like clarification as to what exactly these alterations are. Unlimited alteration seems a little bit too liberal a definition.

For instance, I design a monster that looks like a yellow bean bag with a mouth... Xenocide member X puts eyes on it. Everyone likes the eyes, and it is decided to escalate that design. Xenocide member X gives birth to the newest biological terror in the aliens' post v1 aresenal, the dreaded 'pacman' ???

I would rather mock up everything that has to do with my designs myself. It is implicit that everything I submit to the website would be things I would not be bothered with seeing in the final product. I was thinking that if I linked to it, anyone could suggest any alterations they wished to it, or I could collabourate with the other artists and team members directly. If I design of mine is accepted I would GLADLY donate it to the project and allow them all rights to it.

I just don't want to be in a situation where everytime I put a pencil to paper and submit it as a possible idea for xenocide, either for feedback or to inspire, that xenocide owns the results.

Any of this is nothing I outside of how I conduct myself. I throw out suggestions to the CTD but I don't grab their work and assymilate it and spew it back out. I agree that the liberal alteration model is, by design, much less agrumentative. I do think, however, that any system that promotes free competition, originality and cooperation will foster better results.

The above came after my initial reaction to the post by Breunor when I thought to myself, "Xenocide owns all that content I posted that was originally published by the Federation of American Scientists? Damn. I don't think the FAS would be too happy to hear about that."

In order to have exclusive legal rights to anything published on the website I think you ought to have to have a license agreement deliberately and distinctly put before the user to concent to before he becomes a project member.. so he must read it and symbolically agree or disagree before the program or staff or administrator that governs the team member selection process allows him to become a member. I think that this ought also to be be unmistable as a license agreement and the concent or dissent must be clearly clearly symbolic, like a button or something.

Edited by fux0r666, 10 September 2003 - 02:40 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#5 mamutas

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 02:50 PM

I hope this will provide your with some answers.
mamutas@sourceforge.net

#6 fux0r666

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 03:02 PM

I have read that and reading that is where my questions stemmed from, especially about the linkage.

Note that a program is defined as "A set of coded instructions that enables a machine, especially a computer, to perform a desired sequence of operations." -www.dictionary.com. Artwork does not fall into that category.

edit: I consulted a professor in computing science and it is his understanding that artwork bundled with the software can probably be said to be software itself.

Allow me to straighten out a few more things. If I was doing 3d models to be included with the game I wouldn't care. It's that these concept art pieces THEMSELVES as singular entities not to be included in the final product is what I wish to protect. Anything that is to be included in the product I don't particularly care about.

Edited by fux0r666, 10 September 2003 - 03:26 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#7 Breunor

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 07:04 PM

I don't think you have anything to worry about regarding concept art. I see the confusion between people modding your concept to make a similar yet different concept, and work used in the game becoming the Free Software Foundation's property through the GPL. My understanding is that it's only the final work that is downloaded as part of the program that is then considered part of the program and thus beholden to the licensing agreement. Concept art and other artwork like models that don't make it into the final game is not included. So your picture that a model is based off of doesn't count, since your actual picture isn't part of the download. If that pic was included as additional artwork (like as part of a screen's background), then it would be considered part of the application.

My understanding of this might be wrong, but assuming the above is correct, does that work for your question/concern? I agree that it would be wise to inform new members of their licensing rights if they aren't aware how the GPL works.

#8 Micah

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 09:27 PM

Yes Breunor, I believe that is correct. That is the other part of the agreement that I could not recall at the time I wrote the post. The license applies to anyone who downloads or otherwise obtains a compiled, released copy of "Xenocide."

Does that help, Fuxor?

#9 red knight

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 02:24 PM

Let me explain it a little further...

The code of Xenocide is GPL (which we still dont have any), not the libraries that we use like the Utility Package, Game Engine (those are LGPL).

On the artwork, it is supposed to help and not create any problem of stolen art or further problems of copyrights infridgement if someone retires from the team and after certain time later (like 2 or 3 years) came saying that we are infridging copyrights, but that only include the things that gets into Xenocide.

However you are the author of the artwork, so you can use it for anything that is not commercially oriented (portfolio for example cause you are not selling it). On the other hand if you prefer a LGPL type of license for your artwork we just put a different license for your work, but beware that that means that everything you do can be used by third parties too for commercial purposes (like selling prints of it). With code you can be a little more flexible cause code evolute and change all the time (so if anyone wants to use a improved version, will give out the improvements cause it is better for him in the long run), but an art piece is kinda different, thats why we made the difference (you can easily sell in print or use it in magazines and that) and do not give anything back to the effort...

If you have any further question join me at ICQ...

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Pookie cover me, I am going in.

#10 fux0r666

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 02:27 AM

I don't have ICQ. I hate it. I really do.

But, I would like an answer regarding linked images. Feel free to contact me by any means if this forum isn't sufficient.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#11 LordT

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 05:08 AM

I don't have ICQ.  I hate it.  I really do.

But, I would like an answer regarding linked images.  Feel free to contact me by any means if this forum isn't sufficient.

All you need is an ICQ account, then you just need to get a IM that can use it. You don't have to use ICQ (the software) if you dont want to.

Many, such as Gaim or Miranda can be used to contact icq/msn/aim/irc/etc people.

Edited by LordT, 12 September 2003 - 05:10 AM.

Take your time and submit a name to the Names Database.

Resistance is futile! (if < 1 ohm)

#12 red knight

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 10:09 AM

Linked image into the forums dont apply, first because the author have to surrender willingly the copyright to the FSF, however once that happens there is no way back. However that means that if you present a concept as that, you are impling to use it in Xenocide even if that is a linked and not submitted image. That is because you are willingly working for the project (nobody is forcing you to). For instance any commit I do at the CVS becomes copyrighted by the FSF cause I willingly commit the changes knowing in advance what is the meaning of that...

You can use MSN if you want.

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Visit my blog at: flois.blogspot.com

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Pookie cover me, I am going in.

#13 Breunor

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 12:02 PM

But since this is a web site/forum that discusses the project, rather than being the project itself, posting a picture here still doesn't mean the same thing as uploading the pic to the cvs and having it put into the game, right?

If it is the same, then it would seem that an artist could link to their pictures on a remote server with the comment, "aren't these pictures really cool? I think so." If other people discussed them as concepts the original artist hasn't explicitly given permission. But then the project itself is taking a chance at using the IP of an artist without permission. So anything posted as a concept That Ends Up Being Used in the game is considered licensed within the GPL or LGPL and would require the artist to include in the post 'here is a concept of mine you can use'.

If you post a pic and nothing is made from it for the project, then you would be free and clear of any licensing. What about posts made showing the artwork of a friend? If we don't have that friend's expressed permission, that could be another headache.

#14 fux0r666

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 12:39 PM

Don't take this as a personal affront, Red Knight, as it is surely not intended so.

That is a very weak (read: fallacious) argument... and I mean that in a technical way. Either that or there is an implicit premise in there that I am failing to decypher. I will hunt down trillian or something and see you on ICQ inside of a week. Estimated time frame that you ICQ? What is your time zone?

Editted for a typo.

Edit: Breunor very eloquently summed up my particular take on the matter. ICQ may not be needed. My thought was that permission be given after the refinement and summary acceptance of the design, at which point it would be escalated into a format that is usable by the project, and any project related design tweaks could be enacted at that point in time without permission given by the/ the consultation of the original artist.

Edited by fux0r666, 12 September 2003 - 12:46 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#15 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 02:37 PM

But since this is a web site/forum that discusses the project, rather than being the project itself, posting a picture here still doesn't mean the same thing as uploading the pic to the cvs and having it put into the game, right?

If it is the same, then it would seem that an artist could link to their pictures on a remote server with the comment, "aren't these pictures really cool? I think so." If other people discussed them as concepts the original artist hasn't explicitly given permission. But then the project itself is taking a chance at using the IP of an artist without permission. So anything posted as a concept That Ends Up Being Used in the game is considered licensed within the GPL or LGPL and would require the artist to include in the post 'here is a concept of mine you can use'.

If you post a pic and nothing is made from it for the project, then you would be free and clear of any licensing. What about posts made showing the artwork of a friend? If we don't have that friend's expressed permission, that could be another headache.

What about pictures posted for reference? We surely don't have any rights to these pictures, and if we claimed to we could well end up with a lot of problems. This seems a sketchy area IMO.

#16 fux0r666

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 04:02 PM

That particular concern was addressed in Red Knight's last post.

The conditions for having work under the FSF according to RK is as follows:

If the author is part of the project, and the author himself posts an image (by any means) that he, himself has created, then it falls under the license of the FSF. The hidden premise here is that being part of the team is automatic concent, which is what I contest.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#17 Breunor

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 09:16 AM

So perhaps the best solution is to include a link to the FSF info regarding the GPL and LGPL when a new member joins the project, and say that by becoming a member you understand and agree to them. It's like going to a new place that has different local laws than you're used to, you're supposed to go to the courthouse or visitor center to get the details, which visitors rarely do. When they break a local law, their ignorance isn't a defense. It's the same here, but to help people out having these links to the "local laws" of open source projects would be a good idea. We could have a to-the-point page linked off the home page and in the forums that presents this info. How does that sound?

#18 fux0r666

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 01:07 PM

That sounds good. I would like a clarification on the concent criteria. Is it possible to be a member and upload something for approval without concenting to any public license?

currently: Join==>Concent==>Post==>Discussion/Modifcation==>Escalation/Discontinuation

I think: Join==>Post==>Approval==>Concent==>Escalation
.........................^.||
.........................||..\\
.........................||.....==>Disaproval==>Suggestion/Collabouration
..........................\\....................................................................\\
............................\\..................................................................//
..............................\\=Modification<===================
................................................................................
............//
...............................................................Discontinuation <==

Edited by fux0r666, 15 September 2003 - 01:10 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#19 red knight

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 01:52 PM

There is a systematic problem in the way you propose... for instance take this as an example...

You join, then you post a concept... the time frame between an aproval or disapproval can be of several months, or for example a concept can be taken in hold for consideration of new aliens in future versions... Until that happens you think you have a concept but as the concept is not part of the project as it is. The CTD department starts working on the concept descriptions to give a little more detail (if it is used then you have all the info there ready)... However then you disapeer and the concept is here and we use it (do we have permission to use it???).

And the way you show the process as an improvement can still be tricked to work as the actual one. For instance every concept is approved to be use in future releases, now you dont have a posibility of disapprovement and that part of the process disappear. Meaning that the system behaves as the actual one... (that is the systematic flaw)

You know I dont care much about it because I know how it works and that system is supposed to be a protection for the artwork you make and your intelectual property (you trade that you cannot sell it to anyone). I suggest everybody to read the license at the FSF and lots of your concerns will dissapear.

The choose of the way it works have been made in a way that we protect Xenocide Project interest as a whole while giving enough freedom to the people involved. And free them of any potential liability. As this is a free project and will remain that way as we cannot go back from the "Free Software Foundation" copyright give away, it is senseless to have this kind of discussions.

Most projects are only code related so they dont have problems (they just use LGPL and then forget about it), but we have artistic assets to protect (so nobody can sell anything from the work of our kind artists), thats why all this is a problem.. At the code front we have a CVS if we ever commit or download the code from it we are saying yes to the license. On the artistic issue that is somewhat disctinct cause there is no such tool, so you have to make a distinction. I hope you understand how everything works.

If you are willing to work under the FSF license you are fine to work in Open Source Projects... If you dont then you are not eligible to work in ANY Open source project.

About contact me I will be at ICQ until tuesday, and my timezone is GMT -3.

Greetings
Red Knight
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Visit my blog at: flois.blogspot.com

Posted Image

Pookie cover me, I am going in.