The Heart Of The Game

[warhamster]

I have a very important question. Have we actually figured out gaming systems for this game? I don't mean programming stuff etc. I mean writing out the rules of this game... you know like how Dungeon and Dragons system of role playing runs. If there's a thread out there, can someone kindly direct me to it? I'd so like to supply them with some of my ideas.

[Guest Jim69]

Post away, u started now u might as well continue A mod will merge this topic if there is another 1.

[warhamster]

Hmmm... I've actually written up rules that modified on exsisting RPG's like Robotech by Kevin Sembedia, and TSR's Gamma World. It all culminated in my writing up my own RPG which ironically was quite similar to DnD. Anyway, if it don't matter to anyone, I'll start thinking up of rules. Can anyone tell me what department this is supposed to be in?

[[stewart]]

Believe in the heart of the game Yugioh! There was some discussion months ago by gangsta I think about calculating bullet trajectories and adding some fudge factor or some bvllshìt like that.

[warhamster]

Whoah man, that's physics... hehe. I'm totally blank on that. I only got as far as Newton's apple pie.

 

I was thinking more on game mechanics. Ya know, how to dice up hit percentages, etc. Do we have anything on that? I'd like to start on it if nobody's done so. I kinda wanna do some play testing using dice.

Edited August 5, 2003 by warhamster

[Guest Jim69]

I dunno what ne1 else says, but I say go 4 it. Would it be possible to edit UFO to incorperate these changes, u know as sorta a primitive test since we haven't got a battlescape at the mo. If u wanna test it out with a dice, I say go ahead. U can be sure that someone will try to rip it 2 shreads, but in the end we'll get something good

[demich]

We can use phisics to achive some realistic effects of certein events such as explosion, falling down etc. But if we want something like rpg system... we can use d20 it's free and we can modify it quite easy:). Onother idea is to use already existing systems created by xcom-fans. Or create new one

[[stewart]]

Crimony you can probably find a free random number generator on internet somewhere (if you can't write it yourself) which would be a D-whatever-you-want.

[LordT]

We can use phisics to achive some realistic effects of certein events such as explosion, falling down etc. But if we want something like rpg system... we can use d20 it's free and we can modify it quite easy:). Onother idea is to use already existing systems created by xcom-fans. Or create new one

I'm sorry to say that the development of the X-COM d20 rules seems to have -died- (http://www.sectoidx.com)

[Aosar]

I'm sorry to say that the development of the X-COM d20 rules seems to have -died-

 

Waah! And I wasn't invited to the funeral!!!

 

we can use d20 it's free and we can modify it quite easy:). Onother idea is to use already existing systems created by xcom-fans. Or create new one

 

I'd say a new one, 'cause then we have more room to work with. And creating a rule system for a computer game is much different from creating a book RPG rule system...

[Breunor]

Hmm, D20? I thought the engine would use a random number generator like Stewart mentioned, and the results are weighted based on accuracy of the weapon and the soldier. Later on another variable could be added for range when sight distance is adjusted.

[Aosar]

Hmm, D20? I thought the engine would use a random number generator like Stewart mentioned

 

Maybe I'm a little slow, but I can't help but to see you come off a bit like you would think that the guys ment that the player rolls a D20 and inserts the result into the game... Maybe I'm just tired...

[demich]

that was only a suggestion

[Guest Jim69]

Am I just slow ( probably ), but whats the point in this D20 thing?

 

Writing rules for a game is EXACTLY the same as a rule book of a paper RPG, but the dice is replaced by the RND function ( Not sure if it is that in C++ but I'd bet there is an equivilent. )

 

As long as they describe exacltly what will happen, say Aimed Shot 20% / Distance (Insert special characteristics of Target, if any ). Obviously this wouldn't be the formula, but as long as u write it down in this kinda way it is easy to program. Even I could do it ( possibly :: )

[Aosar]

Am I just slow ( probably ), but whats the point in this D20 thing?

 

If I understand it correctly, what Demich suggests is that we make the "rules" that apply to the game mechanics separately.

[Breunor]

I understand what you mean now, just coming up with the specific formulas to determine the chance to hit, that kind of thing? All those formulas exist in the original game for v1, which IIRC we are sticking to because we know it works. But for later versions where range and the like are used, that would be good.

 

I suggest accuracy break down in this way: each weapon has range classes of short, medium, and long, with a base accuracy. For example, if a weapon has an 80% accuracy, its chance to hit at short range is 80%, medium range is (.80*.80=)64%, and long range is (.80*.80*.80=)51.2%. This kind of system benefits high accuracy weapons and punishes low accuracy weapons because of the snowball effect. A weapon with a 60% accuracy only has a 21.6% chance to hit at long range for example. Long range weapons obviously get most distance before cutoffs. A pistol might have S/M/L range set to 7/14/21, while a rifle might have 15/25/35. You could also add in an extreme range factor, where there's a 10% drop in accuracy for every X meters beyond long range, with a minimum of 1%.

 

A variable can be included for soldiers that have been wounded, along with a nastier one for critical wounds.

 

When a shot is calculated and misses, perhaps the degree to which it missed determines how much the aim is off by?

[Guest Jim69]

Yeah, that's what I thought he meant 2. Well, ur right that what is in UFO works, but maybe it is possible to hack UFO and try messing around with the figures? Is there a way of doing this with an editor, coz I know that peeps ain't keen on reverse engineering.

[red knight]

If you are serious on testing game mechanics before even have a finished battlescape to work with there are several approaches to do it... So for anyone interested you can read this excelent article at gamasutra: Applying Risk Analysis To Play-Balance RPGs

 

Anyone REALLY interested in doing the work (that means a full time position in this - on free time of course but your whole Xenocide time on this), MUST contact me...

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[[stewart]]

The checks based on percentage are "nearly" independant of the "size" of the random number generator. Draft up the rules, express chance of success as pure percentages, and we'll deal with the generation of the random numbers later.

[Aosar]

So for anyone interested you can read this excelent article at gamasutra

 

That reguires a registration and registration reguires a tad bit more information I'd like to give, but AFAIK I understand what the article is about.

 

However, that is RPGs, this is a computer game, while in RPGs you have to steer clear of overly complex calculations, in computer games that is less of an issue, but has to be adressed as well, no?

 

Anyone REALLY interested in doing the work (that means a full time position in this - on free time of course but your whole Xenocide time on this), MUST contact me...

 

Why is the position full time? Just asking. 'Cause I might be intrested. If you don't mind you could give me a quick layout of the position, others might be intrested as well.

[Guest Jim69]

So for anyone interested you can read this excelent article at gamasutra

 

That reguires a registration and registration reguires a tad bit more information I'd like to give, but AFAIK I understand what the article is about.

 

However, that is RPGs, this is a computer game, while in RPGs you have to steer clear of overly complex calculations, in computer games that is less of an issue, but has to be adressed as well, no?

 

Anyone REALLY interested in doing the work (that means a full time position in this - on free time of course but your whole Xenocide time on this), MUST contact me...

 

Why is the position full time? Just asking. 'Cause I might be intrested. If you don't mind you could give me a quick layout of the position, others might be intrested as well.

Miceless would I think, AFAIK he is quite keen on paper RPG's. U'd have 2 ask him, if u can get him when he isn't having a scuffle with J'Ordos ::

[GreatGold]

That reguires a registration and registration reguires a tad bit more information I'd like to give, but AFAIK I understand what the article is about.

I gotta say, Gamasutra is the ONLY site that I would give all that info to for a registration. And its free. In my opinion, it has the most comprehensive and useful computer game design database out there. I know I've used it as a reference on more than a few occasions,

 

Gold

[Breunor]

You can use my personal information if you like:

John Dough

123 Anyplace St.

Mayberry OH 45223

USA

B-Day June 6, 1944 (B-Day is D-Day!)

[email protected]

(513)321-4321

 

Strangely enough, I've never received junk mail/email despite registering at dozens of web sites...

 

 

It would be a full time position in that it will take lots of time to do properly, and unless you're unemployed there isn't enough time to do this and other things as well. Currently we have a working system in the original game, so changing that system will require LOTS of testing to make sure the balance is still there. IMO that is.

[Puasonen]

All those formulas exist in the original game for v1, which IIRC we are sticking to because we know it works. But for later versions where range and the like are used, that would be good.

Am I really the only one who has missed all shots from AUTOSHOT even when standing right next to an alien in original 'ufo defense' I'd say that system SUCKS! Well it works on longer range but it's stupid that you miss from a touching distance of an alien.

[miceless]

Miceless would I think, AFAIK he is quite keen on paper RPG's. U'd have 2 ask him, if u can get him when he isn't having a scuffle with J'Ordos

j'ordos? Where?

 

I might actually be interested. Ill PM whoever it was who asked to be. Red Knight, i think. <scrolls down> Yeah, RK.

 

Plus will take a look at the article.

[red knight]

I had written this yesterday but the forums suddenly failed to me... so I couldnt.

Retrying now...

 

A full position because that involves knowledge on simulation and mathematics (so you will have to do research on that). Because every game (even if RPG or not) is a simulation so if you can define the important stuff in a spreedsheet and calculate the probabilities after N passes and get what you want you will be able to balance the game (and you will be defining the formulae that programmers will use to make the rule set of the game)... That is a time consuming and hard job, so if anyone is interested in it MUST surrender all the other jobs he has. However it has a large payoff you will be designing the game rules. So you will be the one everyone will blame if the game is too hard or too easy (unbalanced). That means I want the job done in a very engineered way, no free variables running arround. And everything should be supported by empirical (simulated) evidence. After that the gameplay testing will be done based on actual game testing and be able to make corrections to the model.

 

I will be choosing the one doing the work based on Knowledge (I need someone with a strong mathematics background - At least an algebra and calculus course at University or College, and preferably a Statistics and Probability Course) and of course willing to do the research and write some periodic diary kind of papers so we can track the progress on the task and write some tutorial on how you are doing it.

 

More or less that is the open position.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

Edited August 8, 2003 by red knight

[GreatGold]

Am I really the only one who has missed all shots from AUTOSHOT even when standing right next to an alien in original 'ufo defense' I'd say that system SUCKS!

The way I have always rationalized this occurance is as follows: if you have a huge Heavy Plasma, and walk around a corner, and find an alien in front of you, and then bring up your weapon to bear, while your heart is pounding, and all in under 4 seconds - chances are pretty good that you'll miss. Especially if its a new guy, which for me it always is. My experienced guys NEVER miss in a situation like this, which makes my rationale work (at least for me).

 

Gold

[Breunor]

Following on GG's thought, consider if these turns were merged into a first person shooter game. I find it easier to track and hit a unit about 50 feet away than someone right on top of me, when we're twisting and turning on each other. More shots miss than hit.

[Guest Jim69]

True, the panic factor comes in, and no matter what the "Best of the best" bullsh!t says peeps panic. Even the best. Then again, maybe the training would take over and pop em in the head. I don't think they'd miss with an MP5 or a handgun , but maybe with a bloody great big SAW, or summint like the heavy plasma.

[j'ordos]

Now THERE could be an interesting idea: heavy weapons have boni to hit for long range but penalties for short range, while pistols are the opposite, and rifles are something in between. Good one Jim Edited August 8, 2003 by j'ordos

[warhamster]

Anyone REALLY interested in doing the work (that means a full time position in this - on free time of course but your whole Xenocide time on this), MUST contact me...

 

ME! Pick ME!

 

As always, my limited internet access... I come back after a few days absence, and I see that most topics have already been to death.

 

I think coming up with rules is simply reducing the chaos of real battles down to workable formulas. While we might never truly realistically represent battle conditions, at least we a set of rules by which we can play our game.

 

This should make the task of actually programming the game so much easier.

 

You know, the outline before the thesis.

Edited August 9, 2003 by warhamster

[warhamster]

I agree with Red. This will be mostly a full time job. But I'll have to disagree with you on one point. Knowledge of physics and math are useful, but nothing actually beats play testing to come up with an effective representation of battle.

 

DnD doesn't actually use too much physics in its computation of hit percentages; it just goes with logic and balancing out probabilities. And yet, we find it is the most successful role playing system ever deviced. One that is pirated in many other games.

 

Anyway, at least it seems we are mostly in agreement that one of the major steps to finishing this game is to write up a game enigine. So who wants to throw away all semblance of a normal life to start writing this out. hehe. Me, I have very little to throw away to begin with.

 

 

 

p.s. Just a side note. I was trying to figure out formulas on how a computer generates a recruit's stats. The only thing is that I figured out that each stat actually has it's own formula. How these stats grow is another thing as the growth and maximum value of each stat is actually different from each other. Can I propose somthing a little more standard like DnD?

[Guest Jim69]

1 thing: I dont actually play paper RPG's but I do know someone who does, and they said something about not using guns, in fact apart from bow ( I think ) there are no projectile weapons 2 use physics 4.

[j'ordos]

I already posted this somewhere else, but this seems like the right place to put it actually. Is there any consensus yet on 'how' armor would work in the game? Will it block a percentage of shots? Will it reduce damage by a certain number? Or something else? Will soldier stats use the same scale as in Xcom?

[[dipstick]]

Oh, thanks j'ordos, you reminded me. I want armour to be increased in strength, and it to absorb ALL damage until the armour reaches 0. Then, it will become useless for that battle. It would get repaired when it gets back to base. Only if every piece of armour was destroyed would the entire armour need replacing.

 

eg all armour would be around 100-200 for basic stuff.

Then when you get hit with heavy plasma, the armour absorbs it all - say 125 with modifiers. Then the head only has 75 armour left . When that goes, the health is depleted by remainder.

 

How was it done in the original, because it seemed a bit uneven.

[miceless]

Im not sure it should absorb all the damage by default, but I like the idea of it degrading when it gets hit. A kevlar vest can stop bullets at long range, but if you are close up/get hit by something bigger, then it might not work so well. In your example, the kevlar would then be completly gone, even though its only been hit once. Am i making any sense?

 

Maybe each piece of armor can be tracked throughout the game and it can get worse and worse. Then, the user can decide if he wants to keep it or make a new one. Repairing could also be a possibility, but it would have to have a good balance.

 

If im being confusing here, say so, and ill explain more fully after some coffee. I am still not awake this morning.

[[dipstick]]

WE had noticed.....

 

well, the way I was on about seems like a fair way. If you get hit with a heavy plasma which does how much damage?? Around a 100 or so isn't it?

 

Get hit by that, and theoretically most people should die with basic armour and health or about 35-50 shouldn't they?? So how did the old system work?

 

I think a reduction in damage should be in order, and a reordering of hp etc

[miceless]

But if a man has armor of 250 and he gets hit by shots at 100, are you saying that he should never take any damage at all from the first two? And then you are telling me that after the third shot the armor has no affect at all? Im not sure I like that idea.

 

How did the original game work?

[j'ordos]

DID that work? Sometimes your unarmored soldier didn't blink an eye when hit by a heavy plasma, while your soldier in a flying suit died with the first shot...

And if he got wounded but did not die, well, I never found a system behind it just how wounded he would be, or how much of his armor was gone

[miceless]

I think that is because it did not automatically absorb all the shot, even if it could have done. This is good, as sometimes the armor just doesnt work or the bullet happens to hit a weak spot.

[j'ordos]

Yes, but it seemed as if someone was flipping a coin every time: oh, now he's going to die with this shot... and that one will be unscathed...oh and this one's wounded now, let's see how much exactly

 

Anyway, are there any plans made up on how this will work in Xenocide yet?

[miceless]

Which is why we should have it more organised. Its always good to toss in a bit of randomness, but for the most part it should be statistical. -_-

 

As far as i know there are no plans on how this will work for Xenocide.

[Guest Jim69]

Which is why we should have it more organised. Its always good to toss in a bit of randomness, but for the most part it should be statistical.  -_-

 

As far as i know there are no plans on how this will work for Xenocide.

Well, there should be a couple of basic rules to that end. If a direct hit of a high damaging weapon hits someone with no armour, they should die. Simple as. They should definatly be wounded it the get hit by nething without armour on IMO. I think them getting hit by a hvy plasma with no armour on and surviving was a bug myself, so it is something that should be addressed 4 v1.

[j'ordos]

Well, in order to get stats like health, armor and weapon damage right I should know how armor is going to work, how damage will be calculated,... the whole bunch. Guess I don't have to hope that will happen for a while then

[miceless]

What if the guys get hits in the arm with a heavy plasma? Its gonna hurt like heck but hes not gonna die. Not immediately anyway.

 

Addin a rule that you have to die if you get hit with no armor on is just plain silly. I agree that it should be unlikely, but its not impossible.

[j'ordos]

I agree. After all, it could be a ehrrmm... what's it called? A hit but it barely scrapes your skin, a near-miss? Maybe it just sizzled the lucky SOB's hair

[miceless]

Near miss? Close call? Flesh wound?

 

Even if the shot takes his arm off at the elbow, he wont die instantly. He might faint, and heck probably bleed to death (would plasma weapons cauterize wounds?), but he wont die instantly (excepting heart attacks).

[[dipstick]]

well, fair point, but surely there should be some stats that apply ALL THE TIME??

 

The reason I suggested what I did was because it seemed fair; of course it will need to be balanced and playtested.....

 

I was also on about it being limb specific. eg, only left arm armour being affected etc.

[Guest Jim69]

Well, the shock of losing ur arm, despite the fact that u would b completly unable to fire a weapon, would more often than not kill u. Maybe the hvy plasma shot shouldn't kill u all the time with no armour, but the figure should be about 80-90% of the time. THere should also b an "Unable to fight" percentage with enforced retirement at the end of the mission if u lose a limb. I mean, who could fight effectively without an arm of leg?

[[dipstick]]

No, we are on about ARMOUR not losing limbs, are we?? I certainly wasn't....