The Heart Of The Game

[miceless]

We were on about armor, then we went to being hit with no armor and I moved it on to loss of limbs. Fun this.

 

Losing limbs is certainly possible, assuming we can accurately tell where damage is done and to what extent. All of that can be sorted out later.

 

I suppose the question we need to answer is how the armor is going to work.

[red knight]

I agree with Red. This will be mostly a full time job. But I'll have to disagree with you on one point. Knowledge of physics and math are useful, but nothing actually beats play testing to come up with an effective representation of battle.

You dont need physics for this, just Statistics and Probability... Thats why I asked for at least an algebra or calculus course, cause Statistics is based on Calculus and algebra open your mind... You need to have a model for playtesting, if you try to playtest something without a known model you will end up trying to fix something that do not need fixing or the other way arround... If you have a model, then you revisit the model (apply the changes to the model, test it, and if satisfactory then we modify in the game ruleset). It is far easier to playtest using an spreedsheet (doing simulation) than in the game... believe me...

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[Guest Jim69]

A lot of it is personal preference, isn't it? Would be easier to find the calc's UFO uses, discuss any problems we have with them ingame and adjust them from there?

[miceless]

Is it possible to find the calcs that the original used? Im ot sure if it is. I guess we could try and see how it worked in game.

[[stewart]]

It is totally possible. Some by simple inference, others unfortunately by simple hex editor. :crying:

[Guest Jim69]

Does ne1 think that someone may have compiled a list of some of the calcs? I'll take a look, maybe someone on x-com.co.uk might know.

[Fred the Goat]

I vote for the GURPS method. Armor has Passive Defense, Damage Resistance, and a whole lot of Hit points. If it gets hit, first there's a chance the passive defense deflects the shot entirely (a bullet ricochets, a laser just heats the armor a little, whatever), if it doesn't deflect, then damage resistance subtracts from or divides the shot's damage, or both, depending on your system preference. Then whatever gets through hits you, and whatever was blocked reduces the damage resistance and/or the hit points of the armor.

 

I personally like the way it was in X-Com 1. Your soldier can get hit in the head with a plasma pistol and no armor, and they won't even be hurt. It won't happen every day, but once in a while the shot just slices your hair, or catches the edge of your uniform, or blows off your headset, or whatever. And yeah, there are creases in even the most powerful armor. If you get shot, you might die. That's one of the many reasons War is Bad. I definitely vote for keeping the randomness in. Most games are not random enough, precisely because people b!tch about random events because they only remember the ones that didn't benefit them.

 

-Fred

[Guest Jim69]

Well, small nicks should IMO be done by ray tracing so it don't look so blatently fake, it the shot hits the outside of the model then u can survive with a few hit points lost, but the more of the beam/bullet hits u the more damage it does.

[[dipstick]]

But the randomness surely should be eradicated...??!

Pretty please....?

[miceless]

No, it shouldnt. Shh.

 

I agree with Fred here, the randomness is good, but it has to be controlled. Must be tested for balance.

[Guest Jim69]

I think the randomness of the shots is enough, without having blatent straight hits counting as a near miss. BTW, if they only do skim u then they should injure u a little and carry on going past u. IMO.

[warhamster]

Point taken RK.

 

I guess we do have to slice up Xcom one way or the other to get an idea of how our system should work.

 

With regards to armor, I liked Paladium's method of armor. Armor has armor rating(AR) and damage capacity(DC). When someone hit's someone with armor, the roll has to go above the AR or it will do no damage to the wearer, instead, it goes to the DC. When DC is depleted, AR is reduced to zero. In playing this system, playing with dice was kind of an inconvenient since you had to roll several times to determine one sword hit, but i imagine this will not be a problem in a computer game.

[miceless]

I think the randomness of the shots is enough, without having blatent straight hits counting as a near miss.

Yeah, i think we should stick with a black and white model of hit / miss i.e. not have near misses. But the randomness is good!

[[dipstick]]

Sounds good to me!

[Breunor]

The randomness factor once your hit applies IMO, as it suggests getting hit straight on or a glancing blow. The difference between a bullet through your shoulder versus through your head, makes a big difference in the damage taken. There also has to be a variable to determine which body part was hit, as the old armor had different stats for different areas. I also vote for the armor having HP, and each shot's damage is reduced by a certain amount. That amount is absorbed by the armor, coming off its HP total. If the shot was a glancing blow, it could absorb all the damage, but if the shot was dead on, enough gets through to damage the soldier. If that dead on shot was to the head, the lower armor absorb rating lets enough get through that you're killed even wearing power armor.

[Guest Jim69]

Yeah I agree with that, there should be a chance of the bullet goin straight thru the armour, like in a weak point, and takin out some of the armour hit points and then some of the normal HP's. Maybe a 1:1 ratio.

[warhamster]

Exactly why the idea of Armor Rating was so nice. But it should be remembered that Xcom is a a game of tactical finesse. If we were to design the armor sytem so that we'll not be afraid to take hits, i'm afraid that Xenocide will lose the flavor that was so unique to Xcom.

[[dipstick]]

I think we should just make it blatantly obvious in the stats how effective the armour is, and what health is affected by. eg, in the stats you have 30 armour - what does that mean?? that it takes 30 damage, or does it protect you for 30 chances out of 100?? Or both?

[warhamster]

Hmmm... sounds good. AR 30 means 30% chance of blocking a shot. In which case the armor takes all the damage. Also this means that your armor can take 30 points of damage before kicking it. So let's say power armor rates 80. It has a good chance of saving you 1 or 2 hits from a plasma blast. But that doesn't encourage you to go out into the middle of the field Rambo-style.

 

Just another question? How does the kind of damage affect armor effectivity. Do we implement it at all? Like in TFTD where sonic weapons do diddly to lobster men, but armor piercing actually turns out to be so much more effective.

[Guest Jim69]

At the end of the day, it should be a rare occasion that armour stops any weapon for more than 4 shots or, as others have said, it will be like an RTS where they stand and shoot each other 4 about 5 minutes b4 they die. There should always be the danger of a 1 shot kill on ur men, or it loses the whole X-Com appeal IMO, and I'm sure others as well.

[warhamster]

Exactly my point. Finesse, my friend, finesse... not brute strength.

[Guest Jim69]

Yup. I can see this being difficult, hmm, maybe we should start from the Power and Flying Armour values, the most protection we would want without it being stupid, and work backwards from there. I think that is the only way we can achieve a good balance of not being Superman with bullets bouncing off u, and actually having the armour make any effect.

[warhamster]

True... if armor can protect you for 1 or 2 hits then I guess it's done it's job. The problem with trying to define armor values now is that we'll have to define weapon damages as well. And defining AR means we go back to the topic of this post... we need a system t work with already. Hehe... We've come full circle people.

[Guest Jim69]

Well, the order we should do it IMO is this:

 

Weapon damage model

Human Armour model

Alien Armour/Damage model

 

If we do it in this way we can create something simular to UFO but 2 our own personal preferance.

[Cavoe]

I'm from the battletech school of damage/location stuffs. My though is KISS - Keep it Simple, Stupid =) Load up the HPs of the PCs and NPCs, have armor absorbtion vars generated for each based on the type of armor they're wearing. figure out the average damage for the weapon being fired and randomize it ( let's say a rifle does 30-60 points of damage, find the average and rand it +- 4-5 points). Then subract the protective effect of the armor. Just a thought... *Rolls 12* Head shot!

 

Errr... Forgot to add, simple random for head, left arm, right arm, center torso, left leg, right leg, rear torso... (no point in doing left/right torso like on Mechs)

Edited August 19, 2003 by Cavoe

[warhamster]

Hmmm... I suppose that's possible. But it would be easier to define now how we determine hits or misses with regards to percentage.

 

For starters, and anybody, feel free to suggest otherwise...

 

Hit percentage is defined by a character's accuracy. let's say we come up with a character who has an accuracy of 100.

 

This is modified by the type of attack.

 

Aimed 75%, Snap 50%, Autofire 25%

 

He chooses Aimed so his hit rate is now 75

 

Key in the weapon's accuracy

 

Let's say laser rifle with a hit accuracy of 110%

 

So his current hit rate is now 84

 

How do we key in range now? I'll just assume that it's -1 per square away (or hex).

 

So the alien is 10 hexes away... hit rate is now 74.

 

Any factor's like cover, just for arguments sake reduces hit rate by 50%

 

So his hit rate is now 37, for an aimed shot with a laser rifle at an alien behind a bush at 10 hexes away.

 

roll the 1-100. He rolls 66 and up, he hits. We roll 70. it's a hit!

 

now let's key in alien's armor. theoretically at 65 (he's a tough skinned alien, i guess). The roll goes through the armor. Subtract damage from the alien's health.

 

Any comments?

 

EDIT: Sorry Cavoe, your entry came in just as i was writing my entry. So i wasn't able to react to that.

Edited August 19, 2003 by warhamster

[Guest Jim69]

Yeah, but don't u think there should be a damage to the armour? Afterall, it DID just go thu.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

How about instead of having armor stop all damage to somebody, how about we have it reduce all damage by varying amounts ex: T-shirt=0% reduction Personal Armor= 40-50? % reduction powerarmor= 60-70, flying armor= 80-90? Hows that?

I like it, and it is simple. Imo.

[Cavoe]

Hehe, That's true, forgot to add that in my post... Gunnery skill. in Battletech-ese let's say... the sectoid is 6 hexes away, that's short range, so +4 , I'm getting ready to fire with my plasma rifle that does 80 damage. There's a tree in my way, so that adds +1 to my 'to-hit'. I walked, so that's another +1. the sectoid walked, so it's another +1. Now where up to a 7 I need to roll (out of 12, now here's were we part from battletech stuffs), But it turns out I'm kneeling so my aim is better, so we give a -2 to the overall to-hit. now we need to roll a 5 to shoot that bastard. but my character isn't a good shot, ( 4 gunnery = no + or - to 'to-hit'... below you -, above you +). My guy really sucks and is a 5, so I add a +1 to-hit. I need a 6 to fry 'em. *rolls* (engine gets a 9) Hit the bastard! (engine rolls location... = 7) Center torso, the sectoid has had it, he's dead.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

I liked battletech, but I could never figure out the board game. I loved the games though.

 

Anyway, in the mechwarrior games, didn't armor come first, then hull (hp) come after all armor in a particular location is gone. I like the fps route better (armor reduces damage., wears out over time. Didn't the fallout system reduce damage?

[warhamster]

Disclaimer on the system I just thought up... I just wrote that down in trying to decipher xcom's system of hit's and misses. I'm not sure if it's accurate, but it does kinda make sense.

[warhamster]

Yeah, but don't u think there should be a damage to the armour? Afterall, it DID just go thu.

 

I suppose it could, but let's just say for argument's sake that we hit at a vulnerable spot that's why the armor doesn't sustain damage. Plausible right?

[warhamster]

Revamp of my system... I looked at the Ufopedia in XCOM1 and realized that each weapon has 7 statistics. Damage, TU for aimed shot, TU for Snap, TU for Auto, Hit% for aimed, Hit% for snap, and Hit% for auto.

 

Also looking at accuracy stats, my commander Kevin Johnson(as of aug 19, XCOM time) was 69. So I guess this is how it was keyed in back then, at least for hit percentages.

 

The assumption is that he's using laser rifle.

Hit% for aimed - 100, Hit% for snap - 70, Hit% for auto - 40.

 

So if Kevin aims for an alien with a laser rifle, his hit% is 69. If he snaps for an alien, his hit% is 48. And 28% for auto.

 

I don't know how they're keying in range and cover, plus I know there's a penalty for firing with someting in your other hand. But basically, that's how the system worked. Do we stick to this or do we design a new sytem?

[fux0r666]

If something goes through armour it's only relevent if the same hole gets hit again.... If it has ceramic plates or something that plate is destroyed which would make that hit location more vulnerablle.

[Jerry]

Having spent many of my own youthful hours in PnP development, I certainly relate... Having spent many of my youthful hours playing around with electronic games, and my of my adult years working, I know that computers work by a different set of rules, and what is most fun on PnP may be dull on computer, while what is most fun on a computer is nigh-on impossable without it. (the analogy here would be the difference between books and screenplays; what reads well does not necessarily look good, and vice versa).

 

The upside (depending on software-engine) of a computer is it's very good at a lot of math and knows a lot about what's going on. It would be possible (for example and given the proper engine) to literally draw a line from the gunman to the target, take a look at visability and use that to determine a shift for the percieved target from the actual target, draw a line from the gunman to the percieved target, have him fire, determine based on everything from his posture to his skill to how many TUs he has left how many degrees and on which axis he missed his target point, trace the projectile along its actual flight path and "see what it hits".

 

Of course, there are issues of computing power (do you want to use "hit-boxes" or actually check for polygon impact (can the bullet go through the space between the target's legs and therefore miss).

 

What options we have in regards to the "to-hit" system from the developers bcomes of paramount concern. If the software developers will give us a piece of code that will actually tell us where on the target the bullet hit, then looking at things like armor, cover, and "called shots" is a different kettle of fish than if the software developers want an algorithem to determine hit-miss and then simply animate it. (will the bullet potentialy hit other things?).

 

This, and decisions like weather we want local damage (hit in the arm) also play in as to how one does armor, damage, and injury.

 

There's, of course, a great deal more; but the people working on the underlying hit and damage system should really brainstorm with the graphics-engine people to find out what the options are. Wherever we can really track something rather than "fake it", we probibly should.

Edited August 20, 2003 by Jerry

[Jerry]

Actually, let me addendum that, as I'm designing backwards

 

The first concern has got to be game-play. What deicisions about advancement and RPG control will make for the best game? How many attributes should the troops have to make them entertaining without becoming burdensome? What kind of skill-range should we have? How should it improve? What kinds of actions do we want (I presume we want somethimg more similar to the original X-COM than, say the feats and skills system of D20).

 

Once you have a "required" and "wish" list for features of character work, combat, and advancement; you can start looking at what rules systmes can both accomplish those goals, and be produceable with a reasonable amount of development and within the game engine.

[fux0r666]

I have a few ideas written down about the battlescape portion of the game and I would like to post it. I'll do so on a seperate thread so it is not lost to those who don't want to participate in this particular discussion (I find muscling through large, well established threads with 3 pages of posts very daunting).