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#1 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 05:39 PM

I was just thinking of a way to make cydonia more intresting, when I came up with the idea of having your avenger stopped for a bit before reaching mars, while aliens in space suits come out after you.

It would be in space, with asteroids, but mainly space. You would need at least power armor, otherwise your men will die. Flight armor will let you move around, while power armor won't (they'll just float!) It would be like any other battlescape, except in space (with space float animations) and with mutons, sectoids, etherials, etc. I think it would be fun.

Maby we could explain it as an alien defense station has you in a tractor beam, and you need to destroy the station in a set number of turns to survive? (Ufos are on their way!)

What do you guys think? Just as a way to spice up the final mission.
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#2 fux0r666

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 06:32 PM

They wouldn't just float in space, they would continue on the vector they received from the initial impulse, so if they pushed away from the ship they could continue on that vector until they hit something. At this point they would impart their inertia to that object and visa versa, and so both would change course accordingly.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#3 mike[F]

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 10:44 AM

This idea doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.. I like my troops on the ground.. or at least within sight of it.

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#4 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 12:50 PM

Thats ok, difference of oppinion makes this project strong. I was just thinking of a way to make cydnonia more intresting.
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#5 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 01:54 PM

Well, 4 one thing there should be less gravity on Mars. Definatly. Would require some new physics tho, I think that is just a case of modifyin the gravity settings on the physics engine. Could be pretty dodgy in a turn based game tho, it is probably why they avoided it in UFO and TFTD. I can't think of a plasable way 2 reinact space in a turn based enviroment.

#6 mike[F]

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 10:56 AM

How about when you're approaching Mars, you have control of successfully navigating your avenger to the correct location? Not sure how it could be done, perhaps in a sort of XC:Intercteptor style... Which could end up stupid... I think this kind of idea might just end up detracting from the game's main emphasis, killing aliens in the most fun, turn-based, way imaginable. :D

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#7 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 01:05 PM

Yeah, I think personally that the main graphical game will be the battlescape, and as much as possible it would be 2d graphics and text based in the Geoscape.

#8 warhamster

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 05:13 PM

Zero-G combat. Might be interesting but it'll make grenade throwing a real beetch. :LOL:

#9 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 06:09 PM

Well, who would use grenades in space?
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#10 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 06:26 PM

I would, the explosive power would cause the shrapnel to keep heading on a vector and spear everyone on the map :LOL:

As long as it was an electric fuse then it would ignite I think. Dunno if gunpowder needs oxygen as part of it's reaction, if it did then all human weaponry apart from lasers would be useless.

#11 warhamster

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 06:31 PM

No! Not more physics! AAAAARRRRGGG!!!! :explode:

#12 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 06:52 PM

Umm, I believe that a bullet doesn't strike with much power in a 0g enviroment. (Slowed down I think) IIRC that is.
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#13 warhamster

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 06:56 PM

That's not true kid. In fact, because there's no air resistance in space, a bullet will have unlimited range. it'll strike with as much force at 3 meters off as it will at 3 million miles off.

#14 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 07:03 PM

Well, I stand corrected. :)

I don't think guns work in space though, probably the same reason they don't work underwater.

Once again, I could be mistaken, as I am just making educated guesses as I havn't ever shot a gun in space. ?:D

Edit: To get back on topic, what do you guys think of spicing up the cydonia assault?

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 09 September 2003 - 07:20 PM.

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#15 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 07:30 PM

Well, I stand corrected. :)

I don't think guns work in space though, probably the same reason they don't work underwater.

Once again, I could be mistaken, as I am just making educated guesses as I havn't ever shot a gun in space. ?:D

Edit: To get back on topic, what do you guys think of spicing up the cydonia assault?

Point 1. Reason guns don't fire underwater is that if they get water in them they jam, it isn't like Rambo where u can wade underwater with the thing u either have 2 cover it up or hold it above the water. Interestingly enough, gunpowder explosions underwater ( assuming that the charge is waterproofed ) are actually far more powerfull, it is infact the basis for ship mines.

Yeah, I do think it could use spicing up a little, but I dunno bout deep space battles. Something needs 2 be done about the fact that the physics on Mars are identical to that of Earth, even if it is just an explination saying that on the asteroid the base is on it is covered by a gravity field or summint.

#16 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 07:33 PM

Yes thats it! The aliens can't really tolerate extreme gravity variations, so they have a gravetic field around cydonia! Just give the ctd a few days to come up with it... :D
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#17 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 07:36 PM

Make use of Elerium too, makes less new things necessary and shows the aliens dependance on the stuff. I guess the place that entry would be is in the Cydonia or Bust document.

#18 fux0r666

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 10:01 PM

Guns would fire faster in outer space and would be more accurate, providing you had a stable firing platform. They would also push you backward in the same manner as a rocket engine (or pde), provided you had no such platform. Grenades would explode but there would be no concussive shockwave or anything like that, so the only effective wounding agent at further than ground 0 would be shrapnel (throwing a grenade would also push you back slightly.. and you would continue on that vector until you hit something... and so would the grenade, so you would end up hurling it off of the map if you even attempted to throw it.). And if anything punctured the suits of anyone they would be automatically dead without hope of medical intervention.

If there is space combat I would opt for flying suits only this would get rid of a lot of the weirdness of the whole no pressure atmosphere no gravity thing... although my vote would be not to impliment the feature for these reasons: in order to make it novel you would have to make it relevently different from the ground combat. I see no way of doing that in a turned based environment. The flying suits would act as normal, somethings wouldn't work, and something would work oddly... but the combat would be waaaay too similar.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#19 Extralucas

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 09:09 AM

I was just thinking of a way to make cydonia more intresting, when I came up with the idea of having your avenger stopped for a bit before reaching mars, while aliens in space suits come out after you.

It would be in space, with asteroids, but mainly space. You would need at least power armor, otherwise your men will die. Flight armor will let you move around, while power armor won't (they'll just float!) It would be like any other battlescape, except in space (with space float animations) and with mutons, sectoids, etherials, etc. I think it would be fun.

Maby we could explain it as an alien defense station has you in a tractor beam, and you need to destroy the station in a set number of turns to survive? (Ufos are on their way!)

What do you guys think? Just as a way to spice up the final mission.

THat could change into a chain of pointless missions like in Apocalypse. Still I think it's strange that aliens aren't defending their bases or the Cydonia with some kind of Defensive structures like in human bases.
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#20 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 10:08 AM

Just making the whole battle longer and harder would suit me fine. No need for space missions, to hard to work out realistically.

#21 fux0r666

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 12:11 PM

Perhaps you would have to send your interceptors in on strike missions to engage the surface to air platforms and hyperwave scanners before attempting an invasion...?

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#22 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 12:43 PM

You mean firestorms and lightnings?
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#23 fux0r666

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 12:44 PM

I mean any craft that does not have your troops in it and is capable of getting there.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#24 Extralucas

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 01:47 PM

Then firestorms only, or empty avengers and lightings.
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#25 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 01:49 PM

Any alientech craft, hows that?

And I never said that I like your idea fux0r. So now I am! I think it is a good way to spice up cydonia and make it more worthwile to get there. :D
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#26 fux0r666

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 03:12 PM

I was using the word interceptor as role not as the actual aircraft.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#27 Magstar

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 12:22 PM

Has anyone here seen the original Transformers movie? There's a scene near the beginning when the "bad guys" essentially blast their way in through the hull of a transport ship. Maybe if we made the avenger into a battlescape (it's gotta be bigger than it is in the battlescape. Not even the most hardened soldier would want to travel for hours on end in a standing room only ship just so he could go and get shot at.), we could have the aliens breach your ship and you'd have to fight them off.

#28 Paladin

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 11:20 AM

I would, the explosive power would cause the shrapnel to keep heading on a vector and spear everyone on the map :LOL:

As long as it was an electric fuse then it would ignite I think. Dunno if gunpowder needs oxygen as part of it's reaction, if it did then all human weaponry apart from lasers would be useless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, explosives contain their own oxygen, an explosion is basically an accelerated combustion liberating a whoopass quantity of gas (the blast).
That speed of combustion is only possible if the oxydiser (usually oxygen) is present in sufficient concentration... For instance, solid form is kind of a lot denser than gases.
SO, yes, you can have an explosive device without oxygen, you'll even have explosion sounds in space, the expanding gases WILL knock you back since there's no other gas pressure to contain it...
You just won't hear weapons fire or engine whooshing (unless you're sitting in the craft that fires/accelerates) :LOL:

Oh, and we definitely need grenade ranges trppled on cydonia... And throwing accuracy reduced accordingly for puny humans not used to throwing them in light gravity...
And no, it would'nt necessarily be a good thing, if ten sectoids on the map each throws you a 'nade in the first turn... (flying suits anyone??)
(And PLEASE kill the rookies in shirt on Mars... it's -20 to -100 without oxygen for cryin' out loud...) :D
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#29 Paladin

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 11:25 AM

That's not true kid. In fact, because there's no air resistance in space, a bullet will have unlimited range. it'll strike with as much force at 3 meters off as it will at 3 million miles off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly, a flake of paint from a previous rocket can dent a connon-proof Space shuttle window with a two-inch wide (and deep) hole...

Eh, the joys of airless physics :devillaugh:
Actually, I've seen a video where they let go of a feather and an apple in a vacuum chamber, it's quite disconcerting to see them fall down hard exactly at the same time and speed (and noiselessly I might add) :LOL:
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then I have to write it down so it doesn't corrupt the rest of my brain.. "

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There is another which states that this has already happened.
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#30 sir_schwick

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 07:17 PM

Actually I would like to see a mini-campaign for Cydonia. Here is the setup.

The 'Cydonia or Bust' research allows the first multi-national project since X-COM itself; the Cydonia Class Carrier. This spacecraft allows for a contingent of X-COM craft, troopers, and support personal to carry on operations outside Earth for months at a time. You would donate Engineers to the construction process and it would take 10,000 man-hours to build. Here are the specs:

'Cydonia' Carrier
6 Hangar Bays
500 Storage Capacity
Living Room for 250 Personnel
150 Manufacturing Space
20 Alien Containment Space
50 Laboratory Space
Psi-Training Labs for 250 Personnel
Medical facilities for all injured.
Supplies for 6 months orbiting Cydonia.
Enough guns to keep planetary defenses and Battleships at bay.

You can build multiple Carriers, but they require a ton of Elerium for each trip. Also, you have to use your own staff and equipment and ships to fill the ship.

It takes about a month for the Carrier to reach Cydonia orbit. Once there you manage missions both there and here on Earth.

On Cydonia:

Air Defence will make landing your Avenger next to the command complex rather difficult. You need to raid outposts and bases for ammuntion, craft, and live subjects to interrogate. Each knowledgable capture will tell you where Air Defence stations, supply stations, military bases, and command stations are located. You can take many approaches to clear the path.

1) Attack air defence stations one-by-one. Expect tons of resistance, especially after the first couple attacks.
2) Take out command nodes and make sections of Air Defence useless. Really heavily gaurded with Psi-Corps to go along.
3) Capture military compounds and start producing tons of HWPs and use those.
4) Find out where entrances to the tunnel networks are and start using those.

Also, you can bring extra Avengers to attack the HWC and HQC.

The ultimate ends of the Cydonia operation is capturing/destroying the Hyper-wave Communicator, which links the aliens to their commanders far away. Once that is destroyed yoru second objective is to destroy the HQ complex. Expect the best of the best in terms of equipment and skill. Psionics out the wazoo and tons of base defences. Once these have been destroyed you have won, but can choose to continue and sweep up that resistance that is left.

Your carrier will head back to Earth after 6 months or if ordered too. A failed mission on Cydonia will lower prestige with nations considerably. You can keep the mission going with reinforcement carriers.

Edited by sir_schwick, 25 November 2004 - 10:38 PM.


#31 Snakeman

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 09:46 PM

I never did fancy the 'or Bust' part of Cydonia or Bust heh. I like the thought of retreating to regroup (at the expense of funding cuts and loss of prestige certainly) to try again. It'd be better in my opinion rather than the save/reload way of things that's replete through the old game.

#32 Durandal

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 02:56 AM

I doubt that the aliens would sit around watching the humans build a fleet of Carriers. Maybe the way we get to Cydonia is by using an Avenger to attack an alien Carrier orbiting Earth. Liek someone said earlier, the Transformers blasting their way into a transport ship. There could be a turn limit, if you take too long the Aliens will alert Cydonia that their ship is being taken over. This would also explain how the Humans can land at Cydonia without being shot down by base defenses or why there aren't 10000 aliens waiting for you when you land.

Although the idea of space combat may seem odd for XCom, you'd only have to do it once. Personally I always thought that Cydonia is too easy, kill a few dozen aliens then wipe out their brain-leader and you win. A few more sub-missions like a space station one and more aliens would make it tougher.

#33 Snakeman

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 03:13 PM

I too thought it too easy as there weren't really what I would call "stepping stones" to the final mission. I actually thought it more feasible to have the location of the Cydonia base with the brain in it ought to have come from another alien base on Mars you had to deal with rather than a commander holed up in an Earth-side base.

On Space Battles, I don't think they should happen in the traditional sense that I think some might be thinking. If the ship you were headed there in was something like what sir shwick is proposing, i.e. a big ship with smaller ships detached to it, then all you need to have is the same sort of intercept screen you use on Earth but for dealing with UFOs in proximity to this roving base of yours.

As for combat, I'd have it take the same form that X-COM base defense missions start out with, with the ship's weapons firing at the enemy. If they fail, it can come off being just like those defense missions, only now your just talking room/corridor/hanger/room combat in a ship's environment, hopefully with what all that means taken into account (might just wanna stick to laser weapons as anything stronger could rupture the hull and suck some of your guys out into the void heh).

Might be fun to, to be able to take the battle over to the alien's vessel during all this while its attached to your ship. I've always liked the notion of ship to ship combat like this. Keep it soldiers, but keep it a boarding op sort of affair.

#34 dipstick

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 06:25 AM

I like a similar idea to the one employed in Apoc - the alien dimension. While not being like that, I think there should be many different alien buildings, and you should be able to PICK which ones you enter. I think that you should be able to use an avenger fleet (or possibly special types of spacecraft) to assault the base, then you have to take troops down there to attack various strategic buildings.

For Example, you research the Cydonia mission. Then you have to put engineers on the immense task of a space station (like above) which orbits EARTH. From there, you have a better chance of detecting UFOs that enter the atmosphere.

From there, you discover new types of UFO - and you can only use avengers in space remember :naughty: and these UFOs are only in space. So, naturally, you attack them, but they are very tough. Maybe you need several avengers to take it out. Then, when you rescue the debris (and send scientists up to the starbase to research it) you find a better alien alloy. This alloy, combined with the video of the various new UFOs, gives your scientists the idea of various spacecraft, and the range of these craft augments as you see more UFOs. I don't think there should be a strict if-you-see-this-you-get-that thing though.

Effectively, this starbase occupies a base slot, and you get roughly DOUBLE the space of a normal base. This would be due to 3D buildings as no rock or foundation restriction, just volume. you can transport things to and from the base, but it takes, say, a month to do so, and to do so requires an avenger to be out of commission for the entire month. (until you research a special freighter which takes 2 weeks, and is specialised for the job)

I think that this starbase should be similar to the ones in Interceptor, in that you have to have defenses, and these defenses have to researched based on previous research (eg laser, plasma, fusion, and new special space defense) and maybe stuff like missiles etc. You could have attacks from B-ships, or new UFOs, as these UFOs would be better equipped to fight in space. To make this happen, I think that ANY damage done to non-space UFO should be doubled, and should be increased by 50% for avengers. This should reflect the added dangers of space.

Finally, getting back to the original point. I think that there should be a second stage to the entire xcom project, in which you prepare to attack cydonia, but you need to take out the aliens in space first. I think also, that cydonia itself should consist of multiple buildings, but you can pick and choose your assault.

/long post :blink:
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#35 sir_schwick

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 11:14 AM

I would most like the idea of Cydonia having its own Geoscape. Once you have the base industry for it, you could start taking the fight to the Cydonia map the same way the aliens took it to yours. Also, on space battles:

It would be cool if the ships were on the map and had interesting building properties.

1) The engines, which could be controlled in the 'engine room' would determine the direction of the craft.
2) All the beams and turrets would be able to be controlled and fire on the other ships.
3) The insides of the ships would have atmosphere until a breach was formed.
4) Since the environment is destructible, walls and stuff would go down.
5) You need Power or Flying Armour to avoid decompression death.
6) Alien troops would have their own space suits, because they have the same problems.
7) THere would be various gang-plank type units that could be deployed to make travelling the space part of the map faster.

These battles could be pretty fun, battleships pulling up to your carrier after some initail firing. Turrets firing on infantry and sections of ships, boxes being sucked into the void.

#36 tzuchan

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 12:33 AM

While I kinda like the idea of giving mars a geoscape of it's own, we have gotta consider something first:

Our main objective, in order to defeat the alien menace, consists of taking down the brain. Given what we have researched back on earth, it is only logical that we already have a rough idea of where the enemy is, given that this time we are not aiming at a giant face on mars...

Given the difficulties involved with transferring personell and equipment from earth to mars, I would see that we won't strike until we have a good idea of where the main base is, and at the most, we'd setup an outpost for recon flights.

More logical would be the construction of a "mobile base" back on earth, with say two to three hangars, living quarters for soldiers and stores for equipments and radars/hwd for the ship's sensors, and nothing else. You have to bring along at least one Avenger, and can fill up the rest of the hangars with any of the alien tech crafts.

Initially, when you reach mars, you conduct recon flights to find the main base, and during the process, you can come across and engage ufo patrols, or locate outposts and such. When that happens, the aliens will know you are there, and will immediately start stepping up thier assault on earth, meaning more terror missions, more infiltrations in an attempt to stop you. Also, if you leave the mobile base in one location for too long, they will locate and attack the mobile base, much like a base attack. If they manage to destroy the mobile base, you can still build and launch another, as long as you haven't lost the support of the countries yet. If you lose your funding, but still have the mobile base, you would then have one last chance at the final mission.

Also, when the mobile base is at mars, it cannot receive any support from earth at all. Any replacement of equipment would then come from battlescape equipment retrival.
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#37 Durandal

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 08:05 AM

I would most like the idea of Cydonia having its own Geoscape.  Once you have the base industry for it, you could start taking the fight to the Cydonia map the same way the aliens took it to yours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Sweet, two games in one!

#38 sir_schwick

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 01:11 PM

Well, the mobile base idea sounds alot like the 'Cydonia' class carrier I was proposing. While the carrier was slightly bigger, the idea was the same. Supplies would be generated or captured by the alines. You would need to knock out defenses and find a way into the Overmind complex. Capturing manufacturing facilities could prove useful for the few hours of HWP production you gain(imagine reprogramming the master AI on the new SEctoppods to fight for you). Raiding armouries gets you all the ammo you need, etc.

#39 Snakeman

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 07:29 PM

Well, the mobile base idea sounds alot like the 'Cydonia' class carrier I was proposing.  While the carrier was slightly bigger, the idea was the same.  Supplies would be generated or captured by the alines.  You would need to knock out defenses and find a way into the Overmind complex.  Capturing manufacturing facilities could prove useful for the few hours of HWP production you gain(imagine reprogramming the master AI on the new SEctoppods to fight for you).  Raiding armouries gets you all the ammo you need, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


nitially, when you reach mars, you conduct recon flights to find the main base, and during the process, you can come across and engage ufo patrols, or locate outposts and such. When that happens, the aliens will know you are there, and will immediately start stepping up thier assault on earth, meaning more terror missions, more infiltrations in an attempt to stop you. Also, if you leave the mobile base in one location for too long, they will locate and attack the mobile base, much like a base attack. If they manage to destroy the mobile base, you can still build and launch another, as long as you haven't lost the support of the countries yet. If you lose your funding, but still have the mobile base, you would then have one last chance at the final mission.

Also, when the mobile base is at mars, it cannot receive any support from earth at all. Any replacement of equipment would then come from battlescape equipment retrival.


I like what you have here tzuchan, with the only thing I have exception to is that losing a carrier and being free to be able to build any more be solely relied on funding nation's support. I'm still a big believer in the notion that one of X-COM's objectives, especially late game when funding is ify at best, should be to become self sufficient as much as is reasonable. Well, as long as the black market is still functioning at any rate. Then I would have to say that if it ceases to function, then your really out of luck.

Or maybe not...

:OffTopic:
Maybe at this stage of playing, we can introduce the ideas from that other thread about still being able to play a different sort of game from a very precarious foothold (i.e. your losing big time (territorialy speaking), your bases gone, your forced to conduct more raids to get what you need in order to "start over" - with one objective to construct a new base with whatever's left that could flee). Basically you go into hiding and you have to conduct these activities from a meager camping location (the plus here though is that if you still have a craft with fuel, you can move anywhere you want within range if that site get's compromised).

The thing there is, if one is losing badly, that doesn't have to mean the game ends. I think it should really end when you've lost every and all means to fight. No craft, no troops, no weapons. Even in a losing scenario, when all nations have stopped funding, and the market disolves (no where to liquidate items to cash/no buyers), you'd still have an economy of sorts, it just converts to one of probably a bartering system between any surviving humans. Anyway, I like the thought of this kind of slippery sloping gameplay cause I can see a lot of uses for the raid mission type here.

But let me drag myself back on topic here ;)

Supplies from Earth to Mars I think is doable. Cost prohibitive sure, not impossible. While the Carrier concept, coming in later (when you've got info about Mars that opens up the option) can cover immediate needs, what it lacks is an ability to keep the pressure on the aliens for any great length of time. It's role as a roving base I definitely view as a valuable one, but it too will need rotation back to Earth to resupply unless you can set up a way for it to get resupplied in other ways. Using any Avengers it has on board to conduct boarding missions in space with the aliens is one way, but maybe another stepping stone outpost can be made someplace for it, somewhere that's not on Mars.

I was viewing base construction on Mars its self as one of your final objectives prior to the final push. Its value though is probably only as good as it can be for as long as it can remain undetected by the enemy. This is why I was also kind of keen on an alternate idea too of gaining the knowledge over time in the game to actually usurp an alien vessel for mission specific goals to your organization (i.e. Trojan Horse concepts, or even acting as the supply ships you'd need to get things through, assuming the aliens aren't looking too closely at them).

The Earth Carrier is a great idea mind you, but presumably too, it, just as with the Avengers will come off looking very much like a hybrid craft...easily set apart from the UFOs its abilities were adapted from. Perhaps its use in this context can be distraction, unless or until your able to actually find the Brain's digs to help assault it. I've always thought that with troops on the ground operating out of a base on Mars conducting raids and interrogations of leaders there would be more definitive at discovering his location than sensor sweeps from orbit. i.e. With a carrier launching sorties to Mars, you can risk having it lose some of its covering protection for the duration troops from there are storming bases down below.

Anyway, I like both prospects for opening up the larger end game, although I wouldn't want to forget Earth. While all this buildup is going on, aliens will presumably still be trying to get UFOs through to cause mayhem that you couldn't stop with your space forces in time.

So with regard to Geoscape(s) here, I wonder how hard it would be to have it so that you wouldn't have both needing to be loaded too quickly after one another. Or if something could be explained, objective-wise, that Earth was taking a substantial upturn in defending its self to negate having to have its Geoscape load in favor of Mars' - if/when you've built a surface base there.

#40 sir_schwick

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 09:17 PM

In regards to multiple geoscapes, I was thinking the way two-channel simulcast TVs do it. They can split the screen even, or one is in the corner while the other fills up the other space. This gives three options.

Even split
Mars bigger.
Earth bigger.

Since you can slow down time whenever action is hot on both geoscapes, management should not be a problem.

____________________________________________________________

After researching, "Cydonia" Class Carrier, you can then research the "Mars" Class Supply Vessel.

Mars Class Supply Vessel
-Takes Three Weeks to reach Mars orbit and return
-Carries 1000 units storage. Can switch some storage capacity for personnel at 5 units a person. THis means it can have max 200 people.
-Does not contain facilities for sustained operations and costs about 1/4 the cost of the Carrier.


Remember, the Cydonia Carrier has its own food and atmosphere regulation capacity. It also carries facilities for research and extended operations. With Mars SVs, it could harass aliens indefinitely. Of course it cannot control the skies over Mars, just in its immediate vacinity. This means the aliens will still pressure Earth. As for Carrier defense, it is designed to handle mutliple battleships with no problem.

Building your own base on Mars would be nearly impossible if not impractical. On Earth, in known terrain, it takes weeks to construct the base. This is not on the home turf of the aliens in unkown terrain with limited quipment. The only feasible option would be to capture an alien facility on Mars. Those facilities could be quickly retooled to provide for human needs. Also, they could get access to ground units which would allow ground assaults(something the aliens never planned for) and the transportation grid. Of course the conquered base will be attacked a lot, so make sure you can keep your new assets. If you do capture a manufacturing facility, the new bots can really help with base security. Eventually you will find the overmind base you must attack(expect alot of casualties).

#41 Snakeman

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 12:16 PM

n regards to multiple geoscapes, I was thinking the way two-channel simulcast TVs do it. They can split the screen even, or one is in the corner while the other fills up the other space. This gives three options.

Even split
Mars bigger.
Earth bigger.

Since you can slow down time whenever action is hot on both geoscapes, management should not be a problem.


Makes sense. At all times you'd have at least one of these Geoscapes filling the screen. Any others they might come up with including Mars' could be minimized squares. Clicking on one of them shrinks the present one and enlarges the one selected.

I was toying with this other aspect in another thread, but perhaps something here can help determine a Geoscape's loading priority, such as when Retaliation or Research/Scouting missions are detected by your HWPs. Retaliation missions are a given, they're trying to make a bee line to the territory your base has to be found in. Research is just thrown in there since they use this for things like scouting you out or prior for them setting up bases of their own. Basically an early warning system that could threaten a given base on a given Geoscape.

Any other times you might load one Geoscape over another is to conduct actions of your own manually. Still, your right though about slowing down time. I'd hope that sorties are spread out enough at this slow speed that you won't have to load new geoscapes too often. In any case, this won't be much of an issue until you gain the capacity to build bases on other bodies or using a carrier in space.

On retooling an Alien base to act as your first Mars base, I like this action too, as it relates too to my idea above about usurping an alien craft for that specific purpose, then continuing to use that same craft for your supply needs. If its not a Trojan Horse type mission, it could still be used to construct a base. Besides, I think unless the technology was available to your men there, I don't think you could hide that alien base's sudden dissappearance in brain activity from the Big Brain ™ its self. He'll know something's up and send a team.

A more dangerous prospect setting up a foothold base that way perhaps than using the captured craft to form one up on your own. Later on though, if you did find yourself needing more real estate on Mars, then it only puts those new locations at direct threat of reprisal than your first starter base there (presuming again here that it could remain secret for a while).

Another thought on resupplying the Mobile Carrier base ship. Depending on the number of hangers it can have, you could also include an alternate way of resupply by setting up a run between it and Earth. Granted its potential supply stream back and forth won't be as steady as perhaps continued sorties orbiting Mars or from boarding operations with other ships, but its something extra.

The downside of course is that you have to either assign a dedicated ship from the Carrier or from Earth to do this, but either way as well you'd need a free hanger slot on the Carrier to recieve the goods. So I'd think that 6 hangers on this Carrier design concept might be good, since you'll want a couple ships to defend, perhaps one for assaults, while dedicating 1 or 2 ships for staggard runs back to Earth (for trying to further optimize supply flows to the Carrier, staggard runs might be best. i.e. 1 launches a couple of days/weeks before the other is sent.)

Slightly more difficult logistically speaking if your trying to avoid rotating the Carrier its self back to Earth for repairs/supplies than it might be using an alien craft to supply the groundside Mars base (again, at least for as long as it doesn't raise alien suspiscions).

I think too, just as an addition to supply drops here, it would be a further help to be able to syphon off a designated batch of supply types for Carrier shuttle pickup. Things that come to mind off the top of my head would be any ammo the ship/base needs, elerium, alien alloys, and maybe some repair kits. These lists could be differentiated from the stores your bases on Earth or in Earth orbit need to sustain themselves, with the remainders in a seperate que you can monitor for Mars and/or the carrier. Adding to things manually is a must too for when your replacing soldier losses, or adding any other components you might have missed (navigation, small arms etc).

To avoid some tedium there though, workshops can cover much of these needs, by placing manufacturing goods in this que for the supply ships, though again, that still leaves you the judgement for adding things like soldiers or more specific goods. Plus, given whatever meager resources the Carrier forces can take from its actions, it let's them stay out a little longer, so if fuel becomes a major concern for example, that leaves the Mars side base in the position of making elerium capture one of its primary tasks if Alien-to-Earth activity drops too low.

I actually do sort of want Alien-To-Earth activity to drop greatly on some difficulties if you made it this far with X-COM's infastructure, if nothing else, to enliven the Carrier/Mars game a bit more.

Edited by Snakeman, 14 February 2005 - 12:19 PM.


#42 sir_schwick

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 01:47 PM

Of course the brain will realize you jacked his base and send a shiat load of men after you. THis is why when you dedicate your Mars operation to taking a base, you need lots of men and HWPs. Also, you would transport along some makeshift heavy weapons and start adapting base defences. This is why raiding/short holding manufacturing facilities is so vital. Also, considering ammo needs based on success, you might use laser weapons a lot more.

At least on Mars, you should be able to jimmy rig alien craft so your soldiers/navigators can use them. It looks like it takes at most 8-10 guys to run a battleship. IMagine a fleet of battleships whenever you raided a shipyard/hanger bay.

Also, on a programming note, I would assume both geoscapes are running simeoultaneously. Considering hte computers that should be median by 2008, this should not be an issue.

#43 Snakeman

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 03:58 PM

True about the programming involved with multiple Geoscapes. While I'm sure its a hurtle, in these discussions, part of me still dwells on the inferior processing potential of the first game in my head I guess :) I sometimes forget where we are now in comparison to those days.

About the specifics of base setup on Mars here, I like them both, and perhaps there's room for both methods of initial base forming here. I think they offer their own degree of challenges, this is why strategy I believe is a major factor. Taking an existing base may mean not only coming with the materials just to keep your men alive down there, but many more things to defend it from an inevitable quick counter attack by the Brain. The benefits I readily see here for this first method are:

Base Capture
1) Minimal base infastructure equipment to bring along which minimizes base construction costs overall and,,,

2) Immediate benefits of whatever alien structures there are left intact not to mention any other artifacts you could use virtually right away (i.e. no research required for those).

3) Probably not as much effort to convert the atmosphere inside to be breathable, water to be generated or food to become available.

The other method is probably just as costly if not moreso. While its true you may benefit by using that alien craft to build a base from scratch, just to get that little bit of initial "secrecy" about that task, you have much more construction material to bring with you for the base, the tanks and men to defend it, and you've got to generate a means to keep them self sufficient as far as food, water, and air go.

So basically the main benefit to starting your own base is secrecy in the beginning. Costs are much more numerous, base materials, plus equipment needed for surviving there. You could further elaborate on these costs too by having them tied directly to whichever class of ship you captured to get you there in the first place equating to how many base "modules" can be placed there per return visit from Earth.

i.e.

Class of UFO vs # of Module Capacity in Base Construction

By a per visit basis...

1) Scout Class - Can bring materials for 1 module building that's dimention is 1x1/1 square
2) Medium Scout - Can bring equipment for 2 modules - 1x1s
3) Large Scout - Materials for 4 1x1 modules in a visit or 1 hanger sized 4 squared building.
4) Supply Ship/Abductor Class - 4 1x1s/1 hanger sized building + 1 additional 1x1 module.
5) Battleship Class - Can bring material for 8 1x1 structures or 2 hanger's worth.

You still have the complexities involved in base construction along the lines of 'cannot build a structure that isn't already connected to a completed portion', but if factoring in the class used by its propulsion systems, you could also strike a kind of balance between time to module completion and the arrival of others coming from Earth.

For example, using the scouts or medium captured UFOs, you'd probably have the optimum lag time needed between module(s) being copleted and the next run arriving at Mars from Earth, but your limited to 1 or 2 new modules to build respectively.

Alternatively, if you've got a Carrier built by this time and its Avengers can be used to ferry down modules from it that it brought, you've got a much shorter lag time for delivery but possibly at the expense of the base and/or carrier being detected (if not already because this was a captured alien base). So I'd probably recommend having at least one smaller captured UFO operating out of the carrier if you'd gone with the 'building a base from scratch=a bit of secrecy' choice.

Edited by Snakeman, 14 February 2005 - 04:08 PM.


#44 sir_schwick

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 09:00 PM

I thought another useful characteristic of the Cydonia carrier and its mission in Mars orbit. While using WMD on Earth against alien bases would have blown your cover, the NASA boys are looking the other way on Mars. You could research and use Advanced Fusion Burrowers. If you could even scout out the outside of an alien installation on planet, your burrower might hit the spot. Another option is raiding the facility, placing a transponder, and then getting out of there.

Remember that the aliens will probably try similair stunts on any of your facilities on Mars.