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Squadrons & Convoys


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#101 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 06:21 PM

Yup, I agree with the Interceptor not being a UAV, it would devalue their worth I think as they would consider them more expendable. If anything, they should have actual pilots with skills so they are less expendable, but that's a different matter.

We already have a working playable version of the Interceptor window in UFO, and it would be a significant waste of programmers time 2 do all the work 4 a play test of the entire idea posted here. This is why I have started the discussion early, it's gonna take a lot of hammering out if we are 2 change the interceptor window, especially as we have 2 do it without a working model 4 the above explained reasons. I do think it will be a good idea, we just ave 2 make sure it is simple and doesn't detract from the main game.

So, we have 2 decide as a group what we think would be the best way 2 proceed, if we should include certain features, how the combat should be represented, or if indeed if it should be changed at all.

U should always remember that everything in the lab is post alpha, that's the reason 4 it being here. Everything in the workshop's are for 4 upcoming releases and v1.0

#102 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 05:55 AM

BTW, here is a screenshot of how Aftermath is planning 2 do the interceptor window. I think we can do a better job than this, or do peeps prefer this? It is still superior 2 UFO's 1 tho IMO.
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Soz bout the big pic, I ain't got PS on this comp.

#103 fux0r666

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 06:06 AM

I'd prefer less explicit information and more of an abstract representation of the aerial battle. Or maybe what I'm driving it is less cinematic and gaudy. Anyone with a typing hand and a mouse hand can make a airplane model that flies around like a scene out of ID4... It takes a little more of a svelte mind to produce something atmospheric.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#104 Breunor

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 06:52 AM

Hey Jim, I didn't mean that I was annoyed by anything either, just the impression I was getting from the thread. My psychic vibes must be off. The last pic's plane icons was similar to what I was thinking of for how you'd show the planes and ufos. I wonder if the plane picture is actually animated, or just a still. I agree with it being more of the radar variety, as it's your view as the commander controlling the tactics from your base. Making the view more like a military radar view like an aircraft carrier has might look good too.

IMO the balance between the interceptor and ufo abilities are balanced fairly well, until you get plasma cannons the plane is very vulnerable to most larger ufos. If the ufo is made more aggressive you might not need to do much else. Perhaps give the ufos more weapons to fire back. Imagine if you had to send 3 planes to take down even a large scout ufo, and there was still a good chance of losing one of yours, that would be very expensive. Your loot would mostly go to replacing lost planes. I really think aggressive ufos would be better than several less aggressive ones. Say once your plane fires on the ufo, the ufo will attempt to close the range so its weapons can fire back. If it can outmaneuver you it suceeds and it starts firing as fast as possible. That might work out well.

#105 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 08:18 AM

I agree with bruenor. I mean, if you were a evil sectoid who's ship was getting shot at, wouldn't you try and shoot back?

I also agree with keeping plasma cannons the way they are. They are balanced because they are the only weapon that can reliably allow a interceptor to survive a attack against a terror ship for instance.

It looked to me like the aftermath pic was animated, which is cool, but if you want a more simple system, just make interceptors blue triangles and ufos red circles, that is very simplistic.
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#106 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:53 PM

I dunno if ne of u ave played a crappy RTS called Conquest Earth. Had some interesting idea's but was inevitably boring. However, they had little animations that would show up in a box 2 give u an idea of the actions, they were pre-rendered and swapped in and out as appropriate. I think their interceptor window is doin that.

That wasn't what I was tryin 2 draw ur attension 2 tho, I did make a point of posting it tho as I think I remember u posting that idea a while back and I was sorta puttin it there 2 show u what it would be like.

The reason I did it was coz I like the left hand side menu. Simple, too simple IMO, but readable and easily understandable. The main focos 2 me was that it will include multiple UFO's vs multiple fighter jets, which is what I have been alluring 2 4 some time. I know Fux was sayin we need 2 be able 2 compare both 1v1 battles and group battles, well we can when Aftermath is out and we can make an informed view.

Now that I ave seen the asteroids type view 4 another X-Com remake on this forum I don't really like it that much ne more, I prefer the non-graphical type, possibly with the triggered cut-scene pics tho they could get boring.

The reason I was sayin there should be more fighters is that the aliens are supposed 2 be far in advance of us, and surely we would need more than a 2 of our best craft 2 beat some of their ones, with far superior weapons and armour. Tho others may disagree, I think at present the Interceptor window in UFO completly contradicts the whole game, IMO of cause.

Edited by Jim69, 26 August 2003 - 12:56 PM.


#107 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:19 PM

Well, Maby the ufos are so intent on their mission, that they won't divert from it no matter what. That way, it could explain why the aliens never try to close the distance with you.
Also, I like the idea of an occasional cutscene in the intercept portion, just a missile firing here, a ufo explodeing there... Actually, kind of like
Battletech: The crecent hawks' inception, the first and only battletech rpg, but anyway, this game had a little screen that showed little cutscenes (hand drawn I presume) of a mech firing, or a mech getting hit, or sparks flying around your characters head. I think the intercept window should have something like that. If you want to see what I mean, this game is found on the-underdogs.org
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#108 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:24 PM

Hmm, so when they are attacked they just defend themselves? I find that hard 2 believe

#109 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:27 PM

Well, If someone walked up to you when you really had to get somewhere, and that someone attacked you, wouldn't you try to get away to where you are going?

Edit: and if you couldn't retreat, wouldn't you try to keep your distance from your assailant?

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 26 August 2003 - 01:29 PM.

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#110 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:29 PM

No, I'd fight back, I wouldn't just keep tryin 2 get there. Why take a pummling if u can do something about it? Especially 4 ur example as I'd be the equivelent of Mike Tyson, and u'd be the equivilent of Ben Stiller :/

I can understand not following them if the run off tho, coz u gotta mission 2 complete. Unless u completly pissed em off tho, that should be race specific IMO.

Edited by Jim69, 26 August 2003 - 01:31 PM.


#111 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:30 PM

I meant, like a place where you really really had to get there on time. Lets say that you would get more money than you can dream of, but only if you can get there on time, and not a second later.
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#112 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:32 PM

Then I'd break ur jaw and run faster 2 my destination :) Which is the equvilent of tryin 2 end the battle really quickly, cripplin some craft so they can't follow and chipping off. I doubt an abductor mission is in that much of a hurry tho.

#113 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:35 PM

OK, then if you were already running as fast as you could, and if you stopped to beat up your attacker, then you would get there late.

Ok, maby your right about the abductor missions, but i'm saying that the aliens are single-minded, they only try to complete the mission.
Although it would be cool if they stopped to fry your interceptor...
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#114 Breunor

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:04 PM

Depends on the ufo IMO. If it's a scout, it wants to get its recon and return to base without giving up its target. A terror ship does more good getting to its target than in fighting a couple planes, same with abductor and supply ship. I still think each would just go to max speed to seperate if possible, or maneuver when it can. The battleship's the only one I see pressing an attack. But for the larger ships I still think having at least 1 escort ufo makes sense. If the interceptor is damaged then the larger ship might close and return fire to help finish it off. Of course, if the interceptor is in range despite the ufo's attempts to get away, then the ufo would fire as well.

I think the original system was designed so that you had the opportunity to shoot down any given ufo, if done quickly enough. Say you reach a medium scout that's faster than you, but its weapons have a range similar to the cannon. You could sit back and take free shots with the avalanche, but you might not get it before it accelerates away. If you close in to bring the cannon to bear, the ufo can return fire. Granted, I always got a second avalanche for the plane. Perhaps after you fire on a faster ufo 4 times it will accelerate to maximum speed to escape?

I just think that if you make every ufo very aggressive and have them fly in groups that the early game is lost for the humans without using lots of interceptors, which is too expensive to do. I totally understand the desire for a more comprehensive system, and since this is the lab any and all variations are valid. I think these ideas can work (more interceptors, more/tougher ufos), so rather than worry about graphics details, what else would need to be adjusted in the game to balance it out? It would appear that the player needs to keep more interceptors on hand to send in flights, so that would require more hangars and certainly more cash to pay for them. Perhaps if the ufos only start showing up in pairs with the larger craft, not the smaller scouts, then it wouldn't require extra money up front?

#115 fux0r666

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:30 PM

I think that UFO aggression should be intelligent in that if they are in a fast ship and they feel they have a good chance of destroying you they will attack.

If they don't feel they can win they should try and run away.

If they have never encountered you before they should circle you and feel you out a bit.

I don't like this notion of describing the sectoids as evil. What they do is terrible, for sure, but I think that having the sectoids sitting around and giggling at how their brilliant and cruel plan is coming together misses it's mark. I think that the sectoids have an agenda and they will stop at nothing to acheive their goals.. and I think that since they live in a collective like society, that individual life is cheap to them- but I don't think that that should make them attack happy... especially not if it's at their own peril. I don't think that losing a scout ship and 5 sectoids is worth downing an interceptor if the chances of downing it are slim to none.

Another way of going about the problem of larger air battles is to make different classes of ships in order to fill that role. One could have a corvette type cruiser and an all purpose destroyer, and then increase the size and power of the battleships. After you'd destroyed a few of the important vessels, like the harvester or terror ship, they'd start showing up with corvette escorts so that when you move to intercept, the bigger, slower ships move away while the escort moves to intercept you. In keeping with their class, the corvettes would be incredibly fast and heavily armed but quite small and less robust. Like a scout with a heavy plasma weapon.

The destroyers could be the most common war vessel- and as an interesting twist your scientists could classify them as battleships until they actually see a battleship.

I have an additional idea about classifying ships. When a UFO is detected, a screen could pop up with a computer rendered image of the radar reflection of the space ship. It would be a snap shot of how the UFO is oriented in relation to the xcom base, and only a fuzzy, green blip of a leading edge and some of the more oblique structures would be visible (it would kind of have the look of an ultrasound test)- this could be available to you after you research and build a more advanced radar. I think it would be a good interim between the hyperwave and regular radar, and would allow the player to try and classify the ship on the basis of the vague shape and size of the contact.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#116 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:11 PM

Fux0r, that is a great idea! I understand now!

Anyway, how about this interm radar is the large radar? I mean, even if you started building it the first day, you wouldn't get it for a month. But, Xcom would need to get some sort of counter to corvettes and destroyers (Avengers fill the latter role, maby we should make lightnings faster and one manned?)
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#117 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:17 PM

I agree that we shouldn't ave every UFO travelling in a group, it's a waste of Alien resources 2 ship a group of UFO's 4 every mission. I like the one about the more u p1ss the aliens off the more they start guarding their ships, makes it harder 4 the player if he is doin 2 well, much like the T sites in the original did.

They shouldn't really guard scouts, but use scouts 4 cover sometimes, as well as maybe a new class of ship, escort fighter, that is small, manuverable, has a minimum crew and medium weapon systems, to help weight and so they aren't too expendable. They wouldn't care so much about the alien life lost IMO, more about the materials lost and it would also be cheaper 4 them 2 have these fighters around. They should only really be escorting missions like Terror and Infil.

Dunno bout making the player try and figure out what size ship it is from a picture, not really the Commander's job, that's 4 Intel.

Edit: And the reason I posted a pic is coz, don't know bout u guys, but I get a much better feel 4 how the option would work in a picture. It could just be me tho.

Edited by Jim69, 26 August 2003 - 07:25 PM.


#118 fux0r666

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 09:00 PM

http://southport.jpl.nasa.gov/

Imaging radar arrays.

This is a very rough draft of what I would expect it to look like. I actually would make the saucer on less of a square angle so you see more bottom... but it was a quicker paint this way and easier to estimate which surfaces were closest.

Attached Files


Edited by fux0r666, 26 August 2003 - 10:35 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#119 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 07:17 AM

Wow, I like that picture, it would fit in pretty well with the radar.
I feel that only important ufos should be escorted. Like abductore, supply ships, terrorships, medium-large. Battleships don't need escorts because they can stop anything short of an avenger gunning for them.

I also like the idea of a litttle cutscene window for small cutscenes like an interceptor firing, etc.

Edit: Jim, this would be replacing the "view ufo" button in xcom's original intercept window, not making you decide the size.

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 27 August 2003 - 12:13 PM.

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#120 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 02:29 PM

What? So instead of just looking at the thing they are gonna use some kinda radar? Seems pretty pointless IMO.

#121 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 03:01 PM

They would be too far from the thing unless they were using cannons. Actually, didn't xcom weapons have an obscene range compared to real weapons? Like the cannon had a range of 15? km. And, besides it would look cool to have the thermal imaging.
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#122 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:18 PM

There is such a thing as high powered camera's u know, how do u think they image the ground when they bomb? They are like 15,000 feet above ground and still get good picture. Since this would not improve the gameplay of the interceptor window let's not worry about it yet, I think eye candy is something we can worry about l8r, let's try and sort out how we can improve it b4 we start worrying about little things like this. Like how we are gonna represent the battles etc.

#123 fux0r666

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:25 PM

It's not thermal it's imaging radar.

The range of xcom's cannons was a little far, the GAU-4 has a range of 'several thousand yards' according to the Federation of American Scientists. The cannon rounds would probably remain effective against aircraft over longer distances than that but their dispersal would be such that it a hit would be improbable.

The range of the stingray is comparable to the AIM-7 Sparrow although it resembles an AIM-9 sidewinder greatly (at least in the xcom ufopedia). It outranges the Aim-120 AMRAAM by about 50 percent. The Avalanches closest real life couterpart would be the AIM-54 Pheonix missile. The Pheonix outranges the Avalanche by about 40 nm, though.

As far as I know, it would be incredibly hard to take a picture of something moving at 2400km/h at a range of 100 miles, but this would not replace the visual contact window, Jim. It would be brought up BEFORE the aircraft were launched by the imaging radar array.

edit (aim-9, not aim-0).

Edited by fux0r666, 27 August 2003 - 06:10 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#124 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:35 PM

Well, 4 starters u r not looking at 2400km/h because the speed of the interceptor cancels out a great deal of that, and I have seen pictures of aircraft being tracked at about 60 miles, so I doubt it's impossible.

Imagining radar u say? So it would be at the base then. So the commander would see a version with a lot more information than just a picture then wouldn't he? That is intel's job, 2 decifer imaging photographs like this and give useful information about it 2 the commanding officer.

However, u have come onto a more important aspect of this part of the game: What weapons represent what, what ranges should we have the aircraft at? It seems u know a little about air battles so maybe u can give a rough diamater of the contact zone, obviously it's not going 2 be in the same place but the size of it isn't gonna change. So if we can work out a decent range that we give b4 the craft are considered retreating then we can work from there I think.

#125 j'ordos

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:36 PM

As far as I know, it would be incredibly hard to take a picture of something moving at 2400km/h at a range of 100 miles, but this would not replace the visual contact window, Jim. It would be brought up BEFORE the aircraft were launched by the imaging radar array.

Like when the message: 'UFO-007 detected' shows, along with the basic info (speed, bearing, altitude,...) That would work, you can see in a glimpse whether your interceptors stand a chance :naughty:

Edited by j'ordos, 27 August 2003 - 05:37 PM.

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#126 fux0r666

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:13 PM

At least someone in here isn't having trouble decyphering prose today. Thanks J'Ordos.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#127 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:20 PM

U mean someone that agrees with u then :rolleyes:


Well, I suggest someone moving it to another topic then since it has little or nothing 2 do with this 1.

If it had more information it could be OK, tho I think the color scheme thing could be much better used if it wasn't pinks and greens, looks far too cartoonish IMO. If it's gonna be a radar image at least make it recognisable as a radar image in shades of green and black, it may be a steriotype but it's instantly recognisable.

#128 fux0r666

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:24 PM

I see someone didn't visit the link I provided to NASA's imaging radar site.

And no, Jim. I meant that it looks like someone's actually reading what I'm typing and making an effort to understand it. It seems to me that by the points that your raise that you decide to disagree, then read three sentences, then get fed up with reading something you've already decided to disagree with and then proceed to write a reply to something that you haven't adequately read.

Edited by fux0r666, 27 August 2003 - 06:29 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#129 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:29 PM

*sigh* Don't talk 2 me about not reading stuff since u obviously didn't read my post

Ne wayz, all this is gonna be is eye candy it's not important right now. What is important is nailing down how we are gonna go about depicting the air sorties since this is the point of this topic. I've posted an example of how I think they should be interpreted, ne1 got any better idea's on how 2 do things? Since the size of combat zone is obviously gonna be quite big this needs 2 be shown visually, and I don't think my version does that.

#130 fux0r666

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:43 PM

Just read my posts before you reply.

In my version the contact zone would be elastic as the an xcom satellite would be looking down at the furball. The relevent engagement radius would be the maximum range of the longest range weapon in the engagement.

All of this is purely academic, you understand.

Edited by fux0r666, 27 August 2003 - 06:44 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#131 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:45 PM

Fair enough, at least we back on topic. Right, the only problem I see with that is that there has 2 be a range just beyond the maximum weapon range that is the stand off range, since we are gonna keep the 4 ( I think it was 4 ) ranges in UFO.

#132 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 07:02 PM

Are we going to be able to tell interceptors to engage specific ufos? I mean, if I want interceptor 1 to kill the supply ship, and interceptors 2 and 3 to kill the escorts, can I order them to do that?
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#133 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 07:28 PM

These are all suggestions here, so any idea's are welcome. That would seem 2 be a good plan, there could be situations where that could be essential, and the plus being more tactically challenging which is always good in this kinda game.

#134 fux0r666

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 08:04 PM

Remember, Cpl, this is just kind of a brainstorm. Whether anything in Labs will be implimented into the game at all at any point in time is tenuous.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#135 Breunor

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 08:07 AM

While I like the idea of having the vague image of the ufo when it's first detected, in most cases you wouldn't be able to see it at all, would you? If it's within say 50 miles you might, but the small radar has a 300 mile range and large has 450(which was not to scale by any stretch in the geoscape). Both are linked to satellites for ground coverage according to the ufopedia. So maybe the pic would show an overhead image of some kind if you wanted it. This would show multiple ufos if they were present. Then you could determine how many interceptors to send based on the number of ufos. Due to size and speed IMO the images should be blurry and hard to make out exactly how many there are. You could tell the difference between 1 ufo and 4 though. But whether it's a terror ship or a battleship would be unknown until you make direct contact? If the ufo got close enough to your base (300-450 miles), then teh radar could scan without using the satellites and tell you which type it is. I don't remember if you were ever told what the ufo was prior to the hyperwave decoder, you were just shown a picture of the craft in the interceptor window.

As to how engagements would work, it seems most here agree that larger non-scout ufos would have an escort of small, heavily armed ufos. Those escorts would engage interceptors while the larger ship attempts to finish its mission, unless it's obvious they overpower the human craft and then they'd attack to end it quickly. The player should be able to deploy several interceptors, and could target a specific ufo with each plane. If the larger ufo is targeted, the interceptors have to bypass the escorts, which allows them free shots. If some interceptors engage the escorts, the escorts would then return fire on those craft.

So what kind of limits should there be? Max # of interceptors, # of escorts, etc? Formation types, if any?

#136 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 08:47 AM

I think the maximum number for a single squardon of interceptors or ufos (escorts count as ufos too) should be 6, that way, it is not too big to be unmanagable, but is reasonably easy to afford a few months into the game.
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#137 dipstick

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 01:26 PM

Just give a couple of days - I have already thought along these lines, and have written some X-net articles for 2 new medium UFOs - the escort class and the cruiser class UFO. As it is on paper - give a little while to transfer to computer :D
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#138 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 04:21 PM

1 prob with writing CTD files, tho I don't doubt ur skill, is that all this could be scrapped very easily if enough peeps don't like it. I like Breunor's take on the battles, it is pretty much what I had in mind. 6 sounds like a manageable number, tho 5 sounds even better 2 me ( tho maybe there should be less UFO's if this happens, coz remember that the battleship took 4 Avengers per ship, so with additional help...)

Tho I think the main ship should try 2 stay at the back, and if possible try 2 escape. This would necessatate sending enough 2 deal with the escorts and still have enough fighters 2 bring down the main ship, or even just stall it till the other fighters can finish off the craft. There should also be different classes of escort, and maybe a random selection of escorts for the ship each time u encounter them. That way it would keep u on ur toes and numerous tactics 4 what ratio of fighters per class is needed, and of cause this would change from fighter 2 fighter.

I think the formation could work, as long as it is no more complicated than the system in UFO. If u think about it UFO did ahave a type of formation in that for the 4 craft that u could ave attacking at 1 time u could have them at different ranges, or as they called it aggresion levels. We should find a way of making these btn's more useful IMO tho.

#139 fux0r666

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 05:24 PM

I think the finger four formation is the most common attack formation...

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#140 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 05:56 PM

Not entirely sure what the figure 4 formation is I'm afraid, but I don't know a lot about air 2 air combat. I was having a little look around the net 2 find info on ATA and I found a website that had basic comabat techniques. If we really wanted 2 go into depth then we could include dog fighting at close range with things like this. Obviously they would be top down representations of these things, but if we programmed certain scenario's on event of 1 craft performing such a manuver, and likelyhood of it happening, we could have a very varied combat scene. What I mean by that is that 4 each manuver there is a counter, or an oppotunity for a free shot 2 the defending craft, and an oppotunity 4 the attacking craft. Some options would be void 4 certain craft/weaponry, so they would be lost automatically, and then odds of a UFO outmanuvering an XC-1 are higher than the other way around. That would create the battle effect I am looking 4 I think.

Here are some of the basics, I know a lot of u will already know these, especially those fans of fight combat sims, but I'll post em anywho so that peeps can get an idea of what I am talking about. 4 those interested, it is from a site called Scramble! which I think is a cancelled fight sim attempt, tho I didn't really look into 2 much depth. Here's the site.

One-Circle Turn

In the One-Circle Turn (figure 3.1), two opposing aircraft appoach head on. At the point in which they meet or merge, both turn in the same direction at Time 2 and continue the turn and meet headon again, inscribing a circle as the name states. In figure 3.1, neither aircraft came out with an advantage at Time 3.

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To win in the One-Circle Turn you can either turn tighter, bleeding off more energy then the target which he can use against you, or add separation or Turning Room (figure 3.2). Turning Room allows for a Lead Turn or early turn towards the target and also prevents a possible collision, however, any Turning Room you can use the opponent can use aslo. If he is awake the merge will more likely be neutral. Generally the One-Circle Turn gives the greatest angle gain per knot of airspeed loss, and should generally not be used against a tighter turning target making the One-Circle Turn a contest of turn radius. In figure 3.2 the blue aircraft added some Turning Room to the bottom of the page at Time 1, lead turned at Time 2 with almost 90 advantage. The aircraft in blue pressed this advantage and come out with 90 on the target at Time 3. The aircraft in the blue can reverse his turn the other way at Time 3 with the advantage, and a possible shot.

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Because of the attackers high angle on the target, he will likely overshoot before time 4 (figure 3.3), allowing the target to reverse his direction of turn and begin the Flat Scissors, which is covered in the ACM section of Scramble, which is a contest of pilot ability, turn radius, and quickness of reversals. If the defender continues his direction of turn at Time 3, the attacker will overshoot, but will be in a lag pursuit behind the defender maintaining his advantage.

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#141 fux0r666

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 06:14 PM

The finger four formation looks like the configuration of the four fingertips of the human hand.

And this is the kind of flying scissors combat scenario I was talking about when I said we should have a 2d, satellite overhead view of the furball to capture the speed and motion of the combat.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#142 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 06:17 PM

Oh OK, I get u now. not entirely sure how u want 2 represent the battle tho, could u get an example or do a quick mock up in photoshop or summint, I really think having visual representations of these manuvers could be something good 2 sit back and watch, I've always been interested in dogfights but never really known much about them. As long as it is simple and clear 2 read it could be quite interesting.

#143 Thurstan

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 06:00 AM

If it is decided to stay with the xcom1 style of air combat, we could explain the ability to hover back at a specific range by using jet helicopters (Airwolf style) rather than fighters.

A lack of general availability of such craft could help to explain why the national air forces cannot deal with the highly manoverable UFOs.

A few people wondered why the aliens do not seek out and attack xcom craft, perhaps they cannot seperate them from the mass of other aircraft in the sky until you actually attack them? A similar problem for xcom might also explain why there is such a low probability of the xcom radars spotting the ufos (10% IIRC).

#144 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 06:05 AM

I don't think that's a viable explination, but we don't need an explination ne way the user will figure out their own. I just think it is crazy 2 have them stay still and fire at each other, helicopters have the ability 2 hover but get them in an air battle and see if they hover and fire at each other.

#145 fux0r666

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 06:26 PM

I always envisioned a swirling airbattle. And I NEVER thought that the UFO's were highly manoeuverable. Like I said, just because they can generate gravity wells and fold space doesn't make them jedi of the stratosphere.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#146 Kenshiro

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 08:38 PM

With UFOs we kind of have to go with the common mythos of UFOs, by most reports UFOs can accelerate and decelerate immediately and change course without being affected by inertia. In the bulk of sighting accounts, individuals saw UFOs either keep pace and then rapidly accelerate to impossible-to-follow speeds or made some conventionally impossible maneuver, such as shooting at right angle up into the air from a straight-and-level flight. Military pilots reporting a UFO often related the UFO "toyed" with them by literally flying circles around them, or coming impossibly close to a collision before breaking off.

#147 fux0r666

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 09:07 PM

However, for game purposes that is not viable UFO behaviour.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#148 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 12:48 PM

Why isn't it? I mean, that is what happens in real life, so won't people think it is odd that the ufos just sit there while you are shooting them full of avalanches?
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#149 mikker

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 12:52 PM

they don't. You don't see its every move. It tries to get away, and the interceptors onbord computer tries to make the location of the UFO. The ceptor stays on target, so if it turns, the conputer turns it with it. You won't see other things then running away or the like.

Some people say that dreams are a portal to the subconscious. If that is so, I am a very disturbed person.

the truth about scientology

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 01:19 PM

On a pretty unrelated topic, yet still keeping with the topic's title L :) I have come across a little info.

In the Falklands the Harrier was said 2 be useless in Air Combat because it was slower than a regular plane ( an arguement I have heard about here ) and there didn't seem 2 be a use for standing still in mid air. Then the pilots came up with summint. They parked their planes where they knew the Argies were gonna be and when their planes saw them they made it look as tho they were running away. So the planes followed them and the Harrier's just stopped in mid air.

The planes flew straight past the Harrier's leaving an ultra close 20m shot for the missiles. They never missed, but the Argies avoided Harrier's from then onwards. Moral? That VTOL can be extremely useful in combat, tho I am not sayin the Interceptor SHOULD be VTOL, I am sayin it COULD be VTOL.