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Interceptor(s)


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#1 Caid

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 02:52 PM

I will return to question of primary XCOM interceptor, partially discussed in some other threads a while ago. Idea of more types available sounds very well to me. There may be more types of them, having different characteristics. YF-23, which seems to be already made, could be harder to hit (low profile), but maybe with lesser armament and speed, while MiG-31 is much faster, but easily put into reticle etc. Models are made in Milkshape, originally for Freelancer, so aren't very large in filesize.

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MiG-31
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#2 j'ordos

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 02:58 PM

Heh, you didn't have to repost this you know, I had only split those last posts off to relocate them, but well, since you've reposted it I'll delete those :)

Cool models btw, another distinction could be price: the F23 could have a higher survival rate (at the cost of armament storage space, but also at a far greater cost. How many MiG31's can you get for one F23? :P
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#3 Caid

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 03:06 PM

I think we made it synchronically :D

About the cost, we may look www.aeronautics.ru, you have a pricelist there... MiG-31 should be cheaper, about 3:1 when compared to YF-23. Chasing battleship would be a dear action anyway.

#4 fux0r666

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 03:29 PM

If anything I think the mig25 woud be a better choice.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#5 j'ordos

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 03:45 PM

Eh? Why? The MiG31 is a successor to the MiG25, isn't it? Same role, but updated weaponry and equipment, iirc
"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
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#6 Caid

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:32 PM

MiG-31 is slightly slower (not 3 M but 2,85 M...) in maximum speed, but if you reach it, you don't have to change engines each flight as with -25, you know :D In fact, the model would need some work, as it is truly a MiG-25 - hardpoints under wings, no cannon, you see.

#7 fux0r666

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:32 PM

and slower by .5 mach.

Edited by fux0r666, 18 June 2004 - 05:33 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#8 Caid

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:42 PM

Still faster than any western counterpart...tough ie F-15 or Su-27 have better acceleration. That's the problem. Planes in XCOM start at 2400 kph, while for most planes it takes usually few minutes to reach 2 M. MiG-25, for example, needs at least 10 minutes after take-off to reach 3 M, MiG-31 is very similar in this rate. Maybe it would be better as long-range pursuit craft, while there may be some F-15 like unit, which would chase targets quicker.

Edited by Caid, 18 June 2004 - 05:46 PM.


#9 fux0r666

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:44 PM

As far as fighters go but it was designed to catch the b-70 Valkyrie mach 3 strategic bomber than never went into production.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#10 Caid

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:48 PM

As far as fighters go but it was designed to catch the b-70 Valkyrie mach 3 strategic bomber than never went into production.

Actually, according to RSK MiG, MiG-25 program was started even before B-70... they thought about it as a perfect recon plane and strategic missile interceptor.

Edited by Caid, 18 June 2004 - 05:49 PM.


#11 fux0r666

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:58 PM

Intercepting ICBM's with aircraft is pure fantasy. I'm sure the mig design bureau caught wind of plans to design an insanely fast bomber and then decided to design an extremely fast fighter. The fact that the turbofans need to be replaced after every flight hints that the design was sort of rushed and high priority.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#12 Caid

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 01:18 AM

Well, in 60s strategic missiles weren't like today. Engines had to be changed only in cases like 2 hours in 3 M speed and such, you know :D It's good for high-speed cruising around 2,7 M, changes of speed (and afterburner especially) lower its performance. Like when you have to outmaneuver missiles going after you...

#13 j'ordos

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 02:59 AM

Euhm, manoeuvring and MiG25 are two words I would NOT use in the same sentence :)
"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
"The mind is like an umbrella, it functions best when open" - Walter Gropius
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GRRGH RGGHH SNORRTT GHACKHGG

Now presented in DoubleVision™ (where drunk)

#14 fux0r666

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 04:09 PM

No aircraft travelling at supersonic speeds should really accompany maneuverability in the same sentence. A 9 g turning circle at 3,000 km/h is extraordinarily large.

In the 60's, space administrations were delivering payloads to the moon. Transorbittal veolcities of the typical ICBM are 6 km/s. That is 21,600 km/h. Even theatre ballistic missiles reenter at 2km/s (7200 km/h). Interecepting missiles midflight with aircraft would be like intercepting jet aircraft with a biplane. No doubt it is remotely possible, it is not feasible considering the loss of life involved if a nuclear icbm should penetrate your defenses. The USSR must have realized that their money would be better spent on developing a unmanned rocket or laser interception system. All in all the best response to a nuclear threat is to develop so many nuclear missiles yourself that attack would be suicide on a global scale... this is exactly how the cold war played out, and rightly so.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#15 Caid

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 04:46 PM

Theories of Reagan won't fit to era of MiG-25. Many silos were placed at Alaska, just a halfhour from russian bases on Sachalin and Cukotka. If Russians would fire missiles first, it would take at least this halfhour for Americans to detect them. However, in that time, when they'll silos will be launching counterattack, MiGs would be already over them, or at least with them in reticles. Strategic SS missile is heavy and starts slowly, not like some Stinger, you know. And no joke, F-15 could outrun Saturn V rocket in first 14 km height over ground. That's a lot of time.

That's why they made it. Part of prepared victory in nuclear war.

#16 fux0r666

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 05:56 PM

Mutually assured destruction was not a concept new to the Reagan administration. The proliferation of nuclear arms was steady up until Reagan. There is no way that a russian jet could intercept the thousand of simultanous icbm launches, especially over the soil of their enemy whom has extensive anti-aircraft defensive measures, including interceptor aircraft of their own. Entertaining the prospect that nuclear extinction could be averted by an interceptor jet is highly unrealistic, given the rate and number of rockets launched in a nuclear exchange and their speed and trajectory. Given a fast jetcraft can outrun an icbm in the first 14 kilometers, the craft would have to be in weapons launch range ~ 30 k for the first 43 seconds of flight. Expand that to include a missile top speed of about mach 8 for a flight time of seconds, and you have your window of opportunity. After that, there would be no catching it. Given that small window, I don't think that the designers would have thought that the Mig 25 would have been an effective measure against ICBMs.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#17 dipstick

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 06:09 PM

Alright, calm down you two :D

Let's get back to the topic in question, shall we?
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#18 Caid

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 06:43 AM

Mutually assured destruction was not a concept new to the Reagan administration.  The proliferation of nuclear arms was steady up until Reagan.  There is no way that a russian jet could intercept the thousand of simultanous icbm launches, especially over the soil of their enemy whom has extensive anti-aircraft defensive measures, including interceptor aircraft of their own.  Entertaining the prospect that nuclear extinction could be averted by an interceptor jet is highly unrealistic, given the rate and number of rockets launched in a nuclear exchange and their speed and trajectory.  Given a fast jetcraft can outrun an icbm in the first 14 kilometers, the craft would have to be in weapons launch range ~ 30 k for the first 43 seconds of flight.  Expand that to include a missile top speed of about mach 8 for a flight time of seconds, and you have your window of opportunity.  After that, there would be no catching it.  Given that small window, I don't think that the designers would have thought that the Mig 25 would have been an effective measure against ICBMs.

Primary MiG-25 weapon, a R-40 missile, had a range about 60 km, newer missiles like R-27 exceeds even 100 km range... Ok, but such weapon would need a more powerful warhead, ie nuclear (like Avalanche in XCOM, as written in its description), so we remain with R-40 (or if you want, F-108 with GAR-3). If MiGs would be ready, I see no problem. That's why so much resources were put to strategic submarines.

What was the topic? Ah yes. Imagine alien battleship starting with a 3 M interceptor over it. Don't you think that MiG will fire as soon as it will be showed on a radar?

#19 fux0r666

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 02:59 PM

Not if it was travelling fast in the opposite direction, was higher than the plane or travelling in perpendicular to the radar beam. Such actions would severly descrease the effective range of the missile. The maximum effective ranges are only good for stationary targets and provide little information on the missile's ability to intercept hot, high and maneuvering air targets.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#20 Caid

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 03:06 PM

Starting rocket isn't very maneuvering...with descending it would be harder, that's sure :D

#21 fux0r666

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 05:03 AM

oh yeah, they don't maneuver at all. What I was saying is that the maximum ranges of missiles is highly variable.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#22 Caid

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 08:19 AM

I found an interesting interceptor concept made by one plastic modeller firm in 70s. Maybe it wouldn't be bad, if we could intercept enemies which have not yet entered atmosphere... Maximum height range (with missile effective range 70 km) of MiG-25 and A-12 (armed version of SR-71) is about 100 km, this Ragnarok would be able to shot down even ISS, if it would be really made :devillaugh:

#23 fux0r666

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 03:54 PM

LOL atomic engines and nuclear tippied missiles... cruising at 8,000 mph. At 150,000 feet it cruises at mach 10. Hehehehe.

No wonder all alien invasions have successfully been repelled!

Edited by fux0r666, 23 June 2004 - 04:09 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image