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#101 mikker

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 03:23 PM

That is the same as for the living quarters...They need to make room to 50 people in a 1X1 room! Man! maxium 8 or 10, if they use 2 per bed. like with the aliens, there are alot to consider for space and safety.

I see space over safety...

1) Unless a cryssaloid or psi man brakes out, there are minimal danger, because they have no weapons.

2) They are frozen down...many errors would make an alien live up by itself.

3) If it DOES wake up, it still need to get out of the cryo-champer, and then out of the alien containment, (if those 2 are not part of the accident that made the alien awake) and then either to the general stores to get the weapons back, the hanger to hijack your firestorm ( ;) ), or to the lift area (or the personal quarters if its an cryssaloid :devillaugh: )

4) How could such an accident happen?

5) If you DO have the safe thing, you have to scrap 2 more faccilitys for making space for the same ammount of aliens.

6) How many aliens are there space to in the containment area? 10?

7) i doubt accidents would BE in the game (not even for V1.0+)...

I like drewids concept, it really fills out space, and also making it look safe. It would also give space to more aliens, if we use a system, like the ones in lost in space, for 4-5 agenst the wall.

Edited by mikker, 25 June 2003 - 03:27 PM.

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#102 Vaaish

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 05:43 PM

That is the same as for the living quarters...They need to make room to 50 people in a 1X1 room! Man! maxium 8 or 10, if they use 2 per bed. like with the aliens, there are alot to consider for space and safety.

I see space over safety...

1) Unless a cryssaloid or psi man brakes out, there are minimal danger, because they have no weapons.

2) They are frozen down...many errors would make an alien live up by itself.

3) If it DOES wake up, it still need to get out of the cryo-champer, and then out of the alien containment, (if those 2 are not part of the accident that made the alien awake) and then either to the general stores to get the weapons back, the hanger to hijack your firestorm ( ;) ), or to the lift area (or the personal quarters if its an cryssaloid :devillaugh: )

4) How could such an accident happen?

5) If you DO have the safe thing, you have to scrap 2 more faccilitys for making space for the same ammount of aliens.

6) How many aliens are there space to in the containment area? 10?

7) i doubt accidents would BE in the game (not even for V1.0+)...

I like drewids concept, it really fills out space, and also making it look safe. It would also give space to more aliens, if we use a system, like the ones in lost in space, for 4-5 agenst the wall.

Mikker, I designed the barracks to comfortably house 48 with a 2 shift hotbunk setup.

the current setup for alien containment that I posted has room for 7 aliens in cryo and 2 in observation. I think it can stretch to 10 if needed, same as how the barracks holds 50.

the only problem with Drewids idea is that it is tactically very bland. who has the longest range and can bring in the most firepwoer accurately. no chance for even a little supprise.


For the time being I think the central column idean melded with the containment cells adequtely acieves the objective for a secure and somewhat diverse containment facility.

Edited by Vaaish, 25 June 2003 - 05:45 PM.


#103 stoopher

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 05:33 AM

do they all have to be grey?!?

Will the battle scape be like the original or more like the last hope mod?

#104 Breunor

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 06:07 AM

None of them will be grey, all models are first submitted in flat shaded view without textures. Once the design is approved and tweaked, textures are applied to the models. Battlescape will use the isometric 'birds eye view' from the original, with additional camera controls.

#105 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 06:35 AM

Yes that is even more secure and might save on polys if the tubes never have to come out but what does that do to the tactical situation.  I personally like it better with the central column because it spices up the tactics a bit more than who has the longest range w/o sacrificing the overall security. if we have to I can easily slap the glass around each level do that when you need a cylinder it just slides down and you have access.

sorry , yeah you're right. I was coming at it from the storage space angle.
The column version probably would play better. it just looks a bit inefficient to me.

Mind you I think having the pods stacked would also look better, especially with some cool lighting in them.

I wonder if there is a design which will fulfill the tactical criteria but look more , for want of a better word, likely.


-hmmmmmmmm

edit-
How about this - you still get the tactical situation going on, but the storage looks more "realistic".
It's easy to see all the pods from the security point of view, you can get to the top ones from the walkway for maintenance. There is space for twelve aliens, (or ten if one of the central pods is actually a cooling system for the others in that cluster)

There's still space in the middle of the floor for a floor mounted crane/forklift thing, and you still get the stacked pods with all that means tactically and visually.

#106 mikker

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 07:25 AM

Mikker, I designed the barracks to comfortably house 48 with a 2 shift hotbunk setup.

Ups sorry....i was talking about the ones in X-com...

I still don't see tactics in the alien containment room to be so importent. For V. 1.0 that is, if we are going to give aliens additional missions.


a comment for the commander-on-run idea for V 1.0+, it would be easier to implant if cryotubes were placed along the walls. Easier for the aliens to get access to the commander, and perhaps also other aliens?

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#107 Vaaish

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 08:41 AM

Yes that is even more secure and might save on polys if the tubes never have to come out but what does that do to the tactical situation.  I personally like it better with the central column because it spices up the tactics a bit more than who has the longest range w/o sacrificing the overall security. if we have to I can easily slap the glass around each level do that when you need a cylinder it just slides down and you have access.

sorry , yeah you're right. I was coming at it from the storage space angle.
The column version probably would play better. it just looks a bit inefficient to me.

Mind you I think having the pods stacked would also look better, especially with some cool lighting in them.

I wonder if there is a design which will fulfill the tactical criteria but look more , for want of a better word, likely.


-hmmmmmmmm

edit-
How about this - you still get the tactical situation going on, but the storage looks more "realistic".
It's easy to see all the pods from the security point of view, you can get to the top ones from the walkway for maintenance. There is space for twelve aliens, (or ten if one of the central pods is actually a cooling system for the others in that cluster)

There's still space in the middle of the floor for a floor mounted crane/forklift thing, and you still get the stacked pods with all that means tactically and visually.

I'm thinking about putting one attached to the wall under the control balcony or on the floor below it. for the time I'm going to call it a prop and build it later after the main modules are finished.



@mikker. the whole point of the game is strategic play melded with tactical play. If we give a bunch of tactically uninteresting and open areas that facilitates the he who has the bigest gun wins thinking poeople are going to get board of it real fast. The big thing is it needs to be tactically challenging and diverse. the central column provides limited cover on the top level and a means to ambush sildiers and nearly point blank range. if you have to get to the lower level you have to go pat the column or if you enter the room from two of the doors you are right by it.

it presents the options to just enter the room as you get to it or take a specific route to come in near the column for protection but you don't know if the aliens are thinking the same thing.

#108 GreatGold

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 10:11 AM

Hey -

Mikker did get me thinking. It would make a lot of sense for aliens to rescue their brethren when they attack your base. Tat would be a neat little feature. If they make it into the alien containment, and then back to the Access Lift, you should loose some of the aliens your storing, starting with the highest ranked ones.

Also, the more aliens in your unit, the higher the likelyhood of a raid. Just some ideas.

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#109 Vaaish

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 11:43 AM

Hey -

Mikker did get me thinking.  It would make a lot of sense for aliens to rescue their brethren when they attack your base.  Tat would be a neat little feature.  If they make it into the alien containment, and then back to the Access Lift, you should loose some of the aliens your storing, starting with the highest ranked ones.

Also, the more aliens in your unit, the higher the likelyhood of a raid.  Just some ideas.

Gold

or think of them thawing out their brethern and rearming them.... suddenly those last two sectoids multiplied into 3 mutons, 2 sectoids, 3 floaters, 3 chrysalids, and a etherial. of course this would be 1.0+

#110 mikker

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 05:09 AM

I can see your point Vaaish, but that was not what i ment.

Its a single room. It would be, in my point, better if the thing is just stuffed up tight, instead of dropped into strategic posisions for maximal security. I can see what you mean, if this was the entire base.

I made this. It shows how it could be tactical. I know alot of it would be diffrent, and this is just a quiuck sketch.

1) you cannot see to the far site of the room, because the 2 staged cylender area is in the way.

2) easy access to the frozen aliens.

(hope you can see what it is....)

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#111 Vaaish

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 10:15 AM

Where would the lift to the lower loevel go or the holding cells? where is the control balcony?

I think that the current model is working well enough. I hate to continually reiterate but the offset column makes for limited cover in a small room, a situation that we don't really have in the other rooms. If we stich the comumn in the center it is going to turn the room into a case of run in circles. eg I move right to get a clear shot at the alien, he moves right to stay in cover. or I send a squad around both sides and sandwhich him.

the offset gives the option to hide and possibly be trapped but be in a semi-secure secure area but have the advantage of a better shot at forces trying to surround you or duke it out with the enemy if you think you have better equiptment. plus the control balcony on the opposite side gives a liile cover to those trying to circle around. Of course if you are stuck in the lower floor you are prety much dead unless you can hide in on of the containment cells.

In my estimation the current solution is appropriate to the base structure as a tactical whole and individually. We can discuss the nuances day in and day out and we won't get anywhere on the project. I thak you for your imput but I believe this model is finished and contains a majority of the ideas mentioned here.

#112 mikker

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 10:18 AM

okok, but it would be nice to see some cryos at the walls...

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#113 Vaaish

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 10:23 AM

okok, but it would be nice to see some cryos at the walls...

I agree with you, however polycount rears it's ugly head. if the limit was 2000 polys per base view module I could probably squeeze a few on the walls but with everything else we are throwing into the engine I'm playing it safe for the most part and trying to keep the rooms w/o props to about 500 polys and with props 1200 - 1500.

#114 mikker

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 11:34 AM

hmmm....it doesn't need to be SO detailed. I would say 1 container would be...54 polys...

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#115 Vaaish

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 11:53 AM

That stacks up fast. Right now the containers are about 100 polys at half the detail they would almost be unrecognizable. If we find we have polys to spare after we get it up and running then we can see about putting more in.

#116 mikker

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 02:51 PM

oh....i see....

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#117 Deimos

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 06:40 PM

As far as I'm concerned the design Vaaish posted is pretty much finished. We can go round and round in circles forever discussing tactical and realism but until we have an engine to put the model into and actually have soldiers and aliens running around, its all moot. So unless Vaaish has anymore tweaks to do to the model I'll consider this topic closed.

#118 Vaaish

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 10:00 PM

Ok here is the defenses module. I will be adding in a turret mount on that raised platform and some form of ordinance dolly for the missile system. The room layout will stay the same for all defense modules with the differance being the weapon mounted and for energy weapons the ordinance will be changed to a generator.

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#119 Vaaish

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 10:02 PM

and the next one. the thin thhings blocking off the sections are just placeholders for the doors :)

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#120 Vaaish

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 11:00 PM

If there are no comments I'll assume that this is acceptable and will go ahead with the ordinance delivery and launch rack.

#121 mikker

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 06:05 AM

Its nice, but what is it for? Is it for the basedefence rockets?

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#122 Vaaish

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 06:21 AM

Yes this is the standard layout for all basedefense modules (laser. fusion ball, missile, etc.) the diferance will be the turrets and oridinance delivery systems. (In the case of lasers etc it will be generatos)

#123 Breunor

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 06:26 AM

Looking at the platform that the missile system would sit on, what if there was no wall around it, but the platform was about 5 feet tall? That way you could see the enemy but couldn't shoot at it unless you were flying. I wonder how the opportunity fire system would handle that for the aliens? I suggest this over the wall just for the variety it might provide in the base defense. And it's fewer polys! ^_^

#124 Vaaish

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:47 AM

Looking at the platform that the missile system would sit on, what if there was no wall around it, but the platform was about 5 feet tall? That way you could see the enemy but couldn't shoot at it unless you were flying. I wonder how the opportunity fire system would handle that for the aliens? I suggest this over the wall just for the variety it might provide in the base defense. And it's fewer polys!  ^_^

I'm putting in the wall based on the info on the assets list... it is supposed to contain the explosions if something goes wrong. (just make sure to put alien containment on the otherside of the blast doors leading to the launcher to vent everything :) ) I'll see about what the poly count is after the turret and ordinance delivery systems are in, but I'm only running right about 400 poys ATM so I'm not too concerned with poly count yet :)


removing the wall will make the entire module more open and give more space for ordinance and delivery systems. probably end up with a module that has lots of LOS but few areas to actually get a shot through. Not a bad thing, definately something to think about.

What do you think about extending the wall on the other side so that the turret and ordinance side is similar in layout to the control module?

#125 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 10:58 AM

First-pass textured thing.
These textures will be re-used across different facilities.

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#126 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 11:02 AM

and another one

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#127 Vaaish

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 11:09 AM

I like it drewid, though I don't think that the black and yellow strpe is necessary around every pannel on the door since the entire door drops into the floor.

Now I can't wait to see the rest of the base assets... (ok so I'm just waiting for you to get far enough along that I can send you the next set ) :unsure:


EDIT: Are we going to use dynamic lighting in the base view or are we going to have to bake lightmaps for it?

Edited by Vaaish, 30 June 2003 - 11:16 AM.


#128 Breunor

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 12:46 PM

The wall makes sense for containing the blast, yes that's a good thing! ^_^

Attached is the almost-done model for the Interceptor, it includes the torso of a now familiar power armor for fun. It should be to scale I think, it's around 20 meters long. Could you toss it into a hangar and see how they compare Vaaish?

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#129 Vaaish

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 01:29 PM

yikes... the good news is my 3ds importer works... the bad news is it doesn't seem to keep scale. It is coming in at 8 meters long :( this is how it looked default (UAV anyone?)

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#130 Vaaish

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 01:30 PM

and after I scaled it to just about 22 meters (actually about 22.3 rightnow)

BTW, very nice model I like.

EDIT 995 polys for the whole thing excluding the Power Armor torso, Brunor we can probably use this model in the baseview and battlescape if you get get landing gear in there with about 50 to 100 polys. Because with the base hanger selected it only takes a total of 1300 polys and if you take another 100 for the gear that leaves 100 to 200 minimum and up to 400 possibly for props in the room.

very nice job!!

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Edited by Vaaish, 30 June 2003 - 01:36 PM.


#131 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 02:45 PM

Damn, I can't wait to blast some aliens in that :D

#132 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 03:33 PM

I like it drewid, though I don't think that the black and yellow strpe is necessary around every pannel on the door since the entire door drops into the floor.

Now I can't wait to see the rest of the base assets... (ok so I'm just waiting for you to get far enough along that I can send you the next set )  :unsure:


EDIT: Are we going to use dynamic lighting in the base view or are we going to have to bake lightmaps for it?

OK I'll just leave stripes on the outside and top edges.

Lighting RK? I'm assuming generally a couple of direct lights and an ambient which would leave some overhead for an occasional dynamic point light.

I'm burning some lighting into the textures, in a very general shadows-in-corners sort of way, mainly lit from top(ish).

I haven't needed to resort to lightmaps yet but I'd like an option on some alpha blended second-pass textures for effects / steam / nitrogen frost / glows etc. Ideally we'd need a way of getting a second uv set out of whatever package but I've not investigated that in Max, (It's easy in Maya).

Edited by drewid, 30 June 2003 - 03:33 PM.


#133 Vaaish

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 04:33 PM

@ drewid ok

ok here is the final missile defense. 1750ish on the polys. Tough thing is making the loading mechanism look like it could work. my idea is that the ammo is stored under the module and that lifts bring it up and it gets picked up by the arms and attached to the side of the turret.

after this I'll start of the laser ones, Mikker, can I get your fusion ball launcher in 3ds to base the cannon off of?

and is there any major identifiers to the laser tech?

I'll get some generators put in place of the ordinance loading mechanisms and the I should have a good number of polys left to attach the cannons with.

I decided to extend that wall to make the ordinance loading easier to fix up.

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#134 Vaaish

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 04:35 PM

Oh yeas I'll be heading out tomorrow so it will probably be the weekend before the remaining base D units are finished.

here is thesecond pic.

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#135 mikker

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 04:40 AM

hmmm.....those are really small rockets for a battleship UFO. I have thought of more like 3 times the size of that...

here is the 3ds version.

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#136 Breunor

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 06:11 AM

I share Mikker's impresion regarding the size of the rocket launchers. If it was scaled to 200% of the current, it should still have plenty of room to rotate on the platform.

Regarding my tiny plane ( :D ), I actually scaled that UP before exporting it. It would have looked like a toy plane otherwise! ^_^ All the models so far have been scaled to that block.3ds model linked on the assetlist. It's 1 meter square and 2.5 meters tall. I suggest you import it into a facility and just see what scale you're at. As we mentioned via PM, it's easy enough to scale it all in the end, so I guess it doesn't really matter right now. Regarding the plane itself, I already have a low poly version with landing gear that comes in around 350 polys (without the gear it's 160!). I can add the same gear to this one, but I don't think we need anything other than the front gear, as the wings block your view of the rear ones. So an additional 100 polys or less is no problem there.

Vaaish, as you complete these facilities, could you send me the 3ds export? Drewid, could you send me your updates with the textures applied? I'll upload it all to the server and update the assetlist.

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 06:33 AM

I've just imported the second base object and the scaling is wildly different from the first. I don't know if it's something in the translation path or what.

Once they are done we should check tha scales as we bring them into the final scene. Should be easy enough.

#138 Breunor

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 06:37 AM

Easy enough, as I receive each model I'll import it, scale it and make sure it's rotated to the correct axis. (remembering that Milkshape considers the X-Y plane to be on a wall in front of you, rather than on a table. Y is up-down, and Z is toward you-away.)

#139 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 11:45 AM

I've redone the door on the lift, and I've done the linking door section. I'll post them from work tomorrow.

#140 Vaaish

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 12:02 PM

I share Mikker's impresion regarding the size of the rocket launchers. If it was scaled to 200% of the current, it should still have plenty of room to rotate on the platform.

Regarding my tiny plane ( :D ), I actually scaled that UP before exporting it. It would have looked like a toy plane otherwise! ^_^  All the models so far have been scaled to that block.3ds model linked on the assetlist. It's 1 meter square and 2.5 meters tall. I suggest you import it into a facility and just see what scale you're at. As we mentioned via PM, it's easy enough to scale it all in the end, so I guess it doesn't really matter right now. Regarding the plane itself, I already have a low poly version with landing gear that comes in around 350 polys (without the gear it's 160!). I can add the same gear to this one, but I don't think we need anything other than the front gear, as the wings block your view of the rear ones. So an additional 100 polys or less is no problem there.

Vaaish, as you complete these facilities, could you send me the 3ds export? Drewid, could you send me your updates with the textures applied? I'll upload it all to the server and update the assetlist.

OK I'm back briefly... still trying to get internet access straightened out up here.

I am unable to import the 3ds block as it keeps telling me that the file isn't a known type or is corrupted (your yf23 worked correctly though so it might just be the file.) . I also cannot export to 3ds. What I've been doing is exporting to maya binary and sending it to drewid, since his version of the base modules will have the UVW mapping it would probably be best to get them from him.

I have the units in Maya set to meters and the grid set to 25 meter increments with 25 subdivisions. Thats the scale I've been using for all the base modules and the avenger and power armors. If anything I think that my 3ds importers is not properly keeping the scale of the objects as that would seem to be the area where the problem is.

For sake of consistency, put in both the front and rear as it will still be within safe grounds and will be there in case somehow it is possible to see it.



@ drewid: getting hte obvious out of the way first... you didn't pull in the hanger did you?

the size of each modules should be 24x24 meters and the hanger should be 49x49 meters so as long as they are scaled to that it should be fine. I don't know what might have happened with export since I've been able to pull in all of the modules I sent you and composite them together w/o scaling for the base image I rendered off.

Again it might be Maya messing up with the import/export of the scenes.


ok here is a new pic with the missiles scaled up 2x

of course take a look at ID4 Independence Day. The nuke missiles the b2's were firing probably weren't that large either and as the basic defense platform the missile is the weakest not something that was probably designed for taking on such large targets.

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#141 Vaaish

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 12:03 PM

and the next

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#142 mikker

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 02:10 PM

hmm...Well, it looks kind of blocking the doorway...

You could just delete the stuff out in the sides, and move it out there. Then you could dublikate it to the other side. Then you could go though.

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#143 Breunor

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 09:57 PM

I expect that a question with that design would be where the loader goes for each launcher. Why not just have personnel who load the launchers? You have to pay quite a bit in maintainence each month for a facility that might not get used, so the cost reflects people who are always checking the equipment and running diagnostics. If you fire the things, they can relaod it as well.

#144 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 12:41 PM

Here's the textured lift and corridor in Max and 3ds formats along with textures.
I'd forgotten that 3ds uses 8.3 naming format (aarrrrghgggghhghghgh).
I think I snagged all of them but Breunor - please check carefully for blank polys or other gaffes.

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#145 Vaaish

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 10:56 AM

hmm...Well, it looks kind of blocking the doorway...

You could just delete the stuff out in the sides, and move it out there. Then you could dublikate it to the other side. Then you could go though.

I've checked the layout and the launcher does not block the door. it may appear that way in those views but there is about 1.5 meters at the closest points. the design needs to be a single launcher since the missiles and turret eat up a huge chunk of polys. The reason I'm doing an auto loader is that in the energy weapons modules the loading mechanisms on the sides will be replaced with the generator equiptment. Also remember that there would be a "door" of sorts above the launcher for it to be lifted into place on that platform. More launchers meand more platforms and more polys.

I'm thinking that this is primarily an automated system to free up personnel as such there really isn't need for alot of space for walkways since most operations would be for maintenance anyway. Defense modules will probably be some of the more crampted and constricting modules out there because of the automation to fit in the biggest possible payload.

When I get back to the room I'll pull in the armor model and post some pics.

#146 Vaaish

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 06:07 PM

ok here is a pic showing the space between the missiles and power armor... also show why it is necessary to have an automated system. you would be wasting alot of personnel moving these missiles.

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#147 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 06:29 PM

I'm gonna assume that the wall next 2 missile is a blast wall IIRC thats what it said somewhere, but I can't be arsed 2 read 5 pages 2 find it.

Is the blast wall at the front or rear of missile when firing? If at the front, which it looks like in that pic, then isn't it a little redundant? Forgive me if it isn't, I know not what I do :wacko:

#148 Vaaish

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 08:28 PM

the platform the launcher is on lifts to the surface for launch operations. The walls are there in case ordinance goes off while relaoding or in a raid.

The other idea is to do away with the turret and lift all together and put the missiles in silos. I think this will save polys and I should be able to put in more missiles primed for launch. Should also make the missiles larger and solve the problem with the close space (if thats a problem)

#149 Vaaish

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 06:44 PM

If there are no comments as to sub style missiles tubes vs platform launchers or other ways to accommodate the space I'll consider this finished and move on to the remaining base assets.

#150 Deimos

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 06:15 AM

Call it and move on Vaaish