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#1 SupSuper

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Posted 25 September 2003 - 02:02 PM

i just got 3ds max 4 and decided to give it a go. after a bit of messing around i came up with this: a basic design which could be used for a missile entry (Stingray / Avalanche) in the X-Net Database.
yes, i know it looks plain, but i can't come up with any more ideas. anyone got some good suggestions to make this missile look more agressive or hi-tech?

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#2 Vaaish

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Posted 25 September 2003 - 03:04 PM

try doing a search for images of real world missile systems and then base your design off that. Right now it isn't much more than a few primatives put together.

#3 fux0r666

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Posted 25 September 2003 - 04:00 PM

www.fas.org has a lot of really good information on military system.

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But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
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#4 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 25 September 2003 - 04:03 PM

You may want to make it thinner and sleeker. Like a Sidewinder missile (coincidentially what I based the ctd off of.) You are right on about the 4 fins, and this model has the potential to become a great stingray.
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#5 Deimos

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Posted 25 September 2003 - 10:30 PM

A quick google image search pulls up this http://images.google...G=Google Search

Of which looky what came up on the first page http://www.melcom.fr...allery/xcom.htm coincidence or what :)

#6 SupSuper

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 02:57 AM

thx for the ideas, i'm gonna do my best to improve the missile.
btw, does anyone know how to apply your own custom texture to a model in 3ds max 4?

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#7 j'ordos

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 05:30 AM

Instead of actually putting a few primitives together (this looks like a cartoonish fireworks rocket actually ^_^ ), I think it would be easier if you put an image of a Sidewinder (or any other missile you see fit for the Stingray base) as a viewport background, and draw a line shape following the edges (you can make that very detailed with every diameter difference and all, as it only will be shown in Xnet, unless we will have the craft weapon models appearing on the aircrafts in battlescape too? :unsure: ). You only need to draw one half of the missile like the white shape on the missile in this image (without wings), and then you can lathe the line (the missile image I used can be found here)

edit: or maybe I should let someone else do the explanation :wacko:

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Edited by j'ordos, 28 December 2004 - 04:48 AM.

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#8 SupSuper

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 07:46 AM

Cubik posted a link to a texturing tutorial for lowpoly models, it's on page 3 of this thread.

Instead of actually putting a few primitives together (this looks like a cartoonish fireworks rocket actually ^_^ ), I think it would be easier if you put an image of a Sidewinder (or any other missile you see fit for the Stingray base) as a viewport background, and draw a line shape following the edges (you can make that very detailed with every diameter difference and all, as it only will be shown in Xnet, unless we will have the craft weapon models appearing on the aircrafts in battlescape too? :unsure: ). You only need to draw one half of the missile like the white shape on the missile in this image (without wings), and then you can lathe the line (the missile image I used can be found here)

edit: or maybe I should let someone else do the explanation :wacko:

:huh: :blink: :wacko:

anyways, here's a more missile-looking... missile :P
should i remove the name from the texture? i don't know if it looks good or not

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#9 Breunor

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 08:18 AM

That's certainly an improvement over the first. I would suggest making it thinner still, and have the fins be much thinner than they currently are. For example, check out how thin these fins are; Much less drag. It appears that your fins might be out of alignment to the main body. The texture is a start, but you can use a much higher res image for it (say 512x512) since it will be viewed in the X-Net by itself as mentioned. You could put the x-net name for the missile as well as X-Corps or something like that on the fins, maybe the X-Corps logo instead.

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Edited by Breunor, 26 September 2003 - 08:31 AM.


#10 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 08:18 AM

Stingray 1 go!

Sorry, got transported back to my childhood, the writing is exactly the same I swear :) I'd look for some images on the internet of it and try to replicate a flat pattern of it. It looks a little too new and not metallic enough. True, you can do this in the rendorer but it is easier to have it in the texture first, then effects look cooler. If you zoom in on a picture of a real missile you should be able to see the kind of colours to use and where abouts panels are, screws are etc.

#11 SupSuper

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 12:49 PM

hmmm... indeed, i should fix those fins.
any1 got any ideas of where i can get metallic textures for the missile or a good x-com logo?

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#12 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 01:08 PM

You don't want to use the xcom logo, as xenocide will have its own logo. Just put X-Corps in block letters on the side.
Also, you may want to make the fins more pointy, like real missile fins.

Maby you could include a little comment on the missile that some tech painted on? "Take THIS to your leader!" or something similar. Just a thought.
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#13 j'ordos

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 01:30 PM

I was thinking more in line of this for the Stingray (no textures yet, just a quick one)
edit: based loosely on the ASRAAM

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Edited by j'ordos, 26 September 2003 - 01:35 PM.

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#14 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 01:44 PM

That is pretty nice too. :D
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#15 SupSuper

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 03:43 PM

here's the slightly improved missile. the texture isn't so good but it was the best i found <_<
i still haven't added text to the fins because first i need to find out how to merge their "primitives" into one. any help on that?

btw, nice work j'ordos :)

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#16 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 04:37 PM

No offence SupSuper, But I like J'ordos' missile better. It seems sleeker and more modern.
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#17 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 04:47 PM

No offence SupSuper, But I like J'ordos' missile better. It seems sleeker and more modern.

They are both based off two different missiles, so it depends what the Stinger is meant to be.

Edit: And they are both based upon missiles that are 20-30 years old so modern isn't a problem. Usually bigger means bigger payload/speed so it also depends on the stats. I would ave thought that Sup's one could be used for the bigger missile if it were made a little bigger.

Edited by Jim69, 26 September 2003 - 04:49 PM.


#18 fux0r666

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 04:51 PM

Increase the length of the warhead cone and it would be a really good avalanche missile.

This is an example of a real life, very long range, very heavy air intercept missile, the AIM-54 pheonix missile.

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In the game the Avalanche had capabilities sort of in between the the aim54 and the sparrow, and largely eclipsing the performance of the AMRAAM, if I recall correctly. I think it would be a larger missile, either very long or very thick in comparison to the AMRAAM.

One other thing I would make the stabilizer fins thinner and more blade like. They don't have to provide any lift, just stability.

Note that the yellow thing on the front is not the seeker head but a sock over it to protect it.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#19 SupSuper

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 05:10 PM

No offence SupSuper, But I like J'ordos' missile better. It seems sleeker and more modern.

They are both based off two different missiles, so it depends what the Stinger is meant to be.

Edit: And they are both based upon missiles that are 20-30 years old so modern isn't a problem. Usually bigger means bigger payload/speed so it also depends on the stats. I would ave thought that Sup's one could be used for the bigger missile if it were made a little bigger.

well, j'ordos probably has more experience than me with 3ds max so it's bound to be better.

true, one of the missiles could be used for Stingray and the other for Avalanche. slighty bigger in what? length or thickness?

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#20 j'ordos

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 05:14 PM

Heh, just check my first attempts at that thread I linked to for Cubik's post, especially the texture mapping :LOL:

And the Avalanche would be both wider in diameter and longer, but I guess you can still increase the length a lot
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#21 Deimos

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 01:23 AM

Just to put you guys on the right lines here. There are threads discussing differing names for the missiles so don't go putting the names on the weapons as we haven't locked down what we're calling the things and of course we won't be using stingray/avalanche and so on.

Supsuper, don't worry about putting textures onto your missiles, please read the submission guidelines for how and what to post. Thanks.

As the missiles are going to be only seen in X-net the quality must be very high, as an example we should be looking at current games for the level of quality for our models. Think Half life 2, Halo, Project Stalker, Doom 3 and Unreal 2003. I'm not putting anyone's work down, I'm just saying thats the level of quality we need.

Don't skimp on the polys you guys can afford to use as many as you need. Though if you come up with a 6000 poly missile, there's something amiss :D

#22 j'ordos

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 05:23 AM

Ooops :blink:
:LOL: just checked, already at 10k :wacko: Maybe a tad too much?? :hammer:

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Edited by j'ordos, 27 September 2003 - 05:27 AM.

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#23 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 05:27 AM

I thought the X.Net was going to be about that anyway :huh?:

#24 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 08:18 AM

Ooops :blink:
:LOL: just checked, already at 10k :wacko: Maybe a tad too much?? :hammer:

where??? what does the wireframe look like?

#25 mikker

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 08:48 AM

that looks more like a topedo imo

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#26 j'ordos

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 09:15 AM

Well, I just slapped it together as a concept pic, so I didn't worry too much about polycount, and making the seams between plating part of the model didn't help :D
(about it looking like a torpedo, just do a quick image search for 'asraam')

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Edited by j'ordos, 27 September 2003 - 09:17 AM.

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#27 Deimos

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 11:35 AM

That is one finely detailled model, to the point of overkill :D

#28 j'ordos

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 03:06 PM

I'd say it crossed that line by a longshot ^_^
(I wasn't expecting to get audited though :LOL: )
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#29 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 03:36 PM

Well, It is only going to be seen in the x-net right? So can't we go up to the poly limit of a gf2? Isn't that 10000? I don't know. :D

Anyway, I based the stingray off the sidewinder, and the avalanche off the AMRAAM. I can always change this, but Id rather not. :) As long as it looks like it could evolve from one of the missiles I just mentioned, I will be content. :)
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#30 Deimos

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 04:12 PM

Cpl.F The poly limit is high on the GF2 but thats not the end of the story, you have to take into consideration lighting, mapping and any special effects. We decided a while ago that keeping the poly level down to a reasonable level would give us plenty of overheads when it came to putting it in the game.

We originally bandies around a figure of 3000 polys per item but that ws flexible. Basically if you can use 500 polys instead of 10,000 then it makes good sense to do so. Which is why I said above as high a detail as possible but keep the polys under control.

6000 polys is a good absolute limit which allows for a huge amount of detail to be modelled in, just remember that there will be at least a bump map, texture map and in most cases some kind of environmental map as well.

Basically if we allow for a leeway once it comes to putting these high res images into the engine we should be able to keep the specs we set out. However if we max out on every detail it not only will make the engine work harder but it will give us much less headroom when putting it together. Remember its not just the model that'll be onscreen but also the ui as well. It all adds up.

Jordos, think of yourself as unique. You're the first person to be asked to drop the quality level of a model. We usually ask for more detail ;) So consider it as an indicator of a good thing tm.

Edited by Deimos, 27 September 2003 - 04:14 PM.


#31 SupSuper

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 04:45 PM

Supsuper, don't worry about putting textures onto your missiles, please read the submission guidelines for how and what to post. Thanks.

hmmm...
well, here's my missile, longer and completely raw and textureless (looks real ugly IMO). does anyone know how to get the number of polygons my model uses? or how to change the background color of the rendering? i use 3ds max 4 :P

edit: thx for the help. changed the rendered image and got a 3288 polygon count.

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Edited by SupSuper, 28 September 2003 - 06:55 AM.

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#32 SupSuper

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 04:46 PM

and here's the zipped 3ds file of it.

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#33 j'ordos

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 04:52 PM

1) polygon counter: under the 'utilities' tab on the right hand panel, click 'more' and there you can choose to see the polygon counter (in max5 you can press 7 to see the number of polygons too, maybe that works in 4 too?)
2)background colour: choose 'environment' from the 'rendering' menu at the top, and there you can change the default rendering background colour, IIRC

edit: I'd make the nose cone have a sharper point, and a smoother transition between the body and the nose would be good as well. Maybe this one can have larger fins as well? (I like those of the Phoenix ^_^ )

Edited by j'ordos, 27 September 2003 - 04:56 PM.

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#34 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 04:56 PM

Supsuper, don't worry about putting textures onto your missiles, please read the submission guidelines for how and what to post. Thanks.

hmmm...
well, here's my missile, longer and completely raw and textureless (looks real ugly IMO). does anyone know how to get the number of polygons my model uses? or how to change the background color of the rendering? i use 3ds max 4 :P

Pain in the arse innit :) Took me a while to figure out, go to the Rendor options and go to Enviroment. You can change the background there.

#35 Breunor

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 08:19 PM

What about making those fins as tall as the diameter of the main body? So if the missile's 12 inches thick, make each fin that tall as well. I like having the fins up front too. Poor j'ordos, he made a 10k poly vibrator... :D Hey at least it's really smooth! ^_^

#36 j'ordos

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 03:26 AM

Oh well, since the first one wasn't very well received (not as a missile anyway ^_^ ), here's another one, this time based more on the Sidewinder (happy, cpl? :D )
Oh yeah, now at only 2.8k polygons :naughty:

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"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
"The mind is like an umbrella, it functions best when open" - Walter Gropius
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#37 mikker

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 03:51 AM

woot!

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#38 Deimos

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 04:48 AM

Jordos, I liked your first missile (Breu I don't want to know where you've seen vibrators shaped like that :D) though the second one rocks.

Seeing as your second one is based off the sidewinder it could be used for the stingray replacement and the vib.. I mean high poly one could be used as the avalanche replacement.

To be quite honest there isn't much difference in detail between you first and second models, I'd go as far as saying the second has more detail on it, so maybe with some tweaking your first one could be brought down to a similar poly level? See how I'm going on about this? I like it lots so stick some fins on the front drop the polycount and I reckon it'd be a winner as well.

#39 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 08:24 AM

Yes J'ordos, I am happy now. That missile is really nice.
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#40 SupSuper

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 09:25 AM

OMFG that is one sweet missile, j'ordos! great work :D
actually i was basing mine on that one but i'm simply not that good :wink:

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#41 Micah

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 12:27 PM

OMFG that is one sweet missile, j'ordos! great work :D
actually i was basing mine on that one but i'm simply not that good :wink:

That's alright, SupSuper. Nothing wrong with inspiring each other.

#42 j'ordos

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 03:53 PM

Well I was tweaking the second one some more, I'll try that possible Avalanche tomorrow. There are some changes done to the Sidewinderlike missile, and I've posted some views of it (rear and front view are about the closest possible without it looking ugly, it now has ~2500 polygons, but if the xnet view incorporates zoom I can give it higher detail and come out at about 3000-3500)
Are there any more obvious changes needed, or can I call this one done for now? (or should I make it still less detailed and create more detail with textures? ^_^ )

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"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
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#43 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 04:33 PM

I like the anodized black look, tho it could be a little more matt. I'd say the texture is a nice detail level, maybe some minor imperfections could be put into the metal to make it look more real if you know what I mean. Looks good tho.

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Posted 29 September 2003 - 06:02 AM

looking good

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Posted 29 September 2003 - 06:06 AM

acutally looking bl**dy fantastic

#46 Breunor

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Posted 29 September 2003 - 07:02 AM

Awesome looking missile, I'd leave the imperfections out IMO, since it hasn't been fired it shouldn't have any damage from flight. Plus the XC-1 has internal weapon bays, so even in flight the missile would be kept clean. The texture looks great, I wouldn't reduce polys or anything like that, your current total is good. I'd call it a keeper, just toss it up on the ftp server with the texture and you're done. Since we don't have a final name for it yet, just call it stingray.3ds and stingray_texture.png for now.

#47 j'ordos

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Posted 29 September 2003 - 10:10 AM

Actually, it's not textured yet, this was a quick play with materials to get an idea of how it could look. For the texture there are some things I don't know how to do yet, like the transparent cover in front of the seeker, any ideas?
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#48 Vaaish

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Posted 29 September 2003 - 10:18 AM

basically you would need an alpha map for the cover and then add in a specular map to make it visable.

#49 Deimos

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 08:03 AM

Yeah, what Vaaish said :) Though IIRC in 3dsmax, you need to apply the alpha map onto the material and you might have to tweak the alpha map especially if you're putting any other detail on the non transparent bit of the nosecone.

#50 j'ordos

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 09:47 AM

Ok, I've redone that first stingrayattempt, while basing it off the AMRAAM this time (more or less *cough*) Better? Or not quite there yet? ^_^ (maybe it looks too much like a flying bomb :unsure: )

And I've uploaded the .3ds file of the final stingray to ftp, If anyone feels like skinning it... I'll try it out sometime but it could take quite long :D
But if I implement a specular map, won't the missile keep glowing in exactly the same way (the light and darker spots staying put on the missile), as if the lightsource is rotating with it? Or am I totally wrong here?

edit: about 1600 polygons

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Edited by j'ordos, 30 September 2003 - 09:50 AM.

"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
"The mind is like an umbrella, it functions best when open" - Walter Gropius
Posted Image
SNEKK BLOG U-LAR MEKHH! GAHGHH! RK!
GRRGH RGGHH SNORRTT GHACKHGG

Now presented in DoubleVision™ (where drunk)