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#51 Vaaish

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 10:17 AM

maybe increase the diameter of the missile to give the idea of a larger payload?

#52 j'ordos

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 11:07 AM

Like so?
(length about 5.30m, whereas stingray is approx. 2.80. It's diameter was about 50 cm, would now be about 60-70, and the Stingray's diameter is about 15-20cm.)

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Edited by j'ordos, 30 September 2003 - 11:12 AM.

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#53 Breunor

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 12:24 PM

That's looking good. I like the longer fins stretched along the body, makes a good distinction between the missiles.

#54 j'ordos

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 12:56 PM

Wait, here's one for comparison: the upper one is stingray, the second one is avalanche (original), and the bottom one is the widened and slightly elongated avalanche.

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#55 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 01:20 PM

Bingo! Looks like we have a winner!
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#56 Vaaish

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Posted 30 September 2003 - 03:40 PM

Maybe a quick comparison of what it would look like with the larger diameter but shorter length.

#57 Deimos

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 03:21 AM

I like the middle one :)

#58 j'ordos

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 03:59 AM

The original one :D (well, it was based on the AMRAAM, I tried to keep it's proportions)
Anyway, here's some more comparisons, top to bottom: original, 20% wider, 40% wider, 60% wider. Also different fins, as I'm not completely happy with them as they are now, I think something's wrong but I can't put my finger on it... :(

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#59 j'ordos

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 06:14 AM

Oh well, here's two more...

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#60 Vaaish

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 08:01 AM

I like hte 3rd one down and the fins on the one on the right.

Edited by Vaaish, 01 October 2003 - 08:06 AM.


#61 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 01:44 PM

I agree. I think the swept back look feels less solid somehow and sightly less convincing. The solid stubby wings look more businesslike and serious.
Good work J'ordos

#62 fux0r666

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 02:34 PM

The one to the right in the latest post with graphics (as of this writing), looks old school. It reminds me of early ballistic missile models. I do like, it, though.

The long, swept back look of the one two the right is good, but I must admit that it looks a little less business like. For whatever reason, air to air missiles, minus the pheonix, seem to have knife like fins very close the each end of the missile. It probably has something to do with centre of gravity and leverage.

I think it's important, though, to differenciate the shapes of the two missiles as much as possible.

I have an idea, as I have many ideas for just about everything, well received or not. It's a matter of finding the time. I'll explain it here in case I don't have time to much around with my scanner...

Try to make a long wing like the one you have on the current missile to the left, start is a bit earlier and combine it into a pointed triangular wing like on the front of the sidewinder- only it will start about midship (or whatever they call it on missiles). It should look kind of like the blend of delta and conventional wings as seen on the f16 and f18- I forget what that is called. It would have kind of a functionality to it too as a wing shape like that disperses shockwaves or something. Play around with it.. see what you can come up with.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#63 j'ordos

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 02:46 PM

So, this would be you guys' choice? If it's not 'bl**dy fantastic' I'll have to get back to work ^_^

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#64 Vaaish

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:03 PM

yup, looks good.

#65 Breunor

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 05:22 PM

Very nice, but I disagree with the size compared to the stingray. Comparing the stats to the size, shouldn't they be closer in size?

70 damage to 100
30km to 60km

I'm on the fence here.

#66 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 08:10 PM

Well, 30 km is a lot of distance, it only makes sense that the avalanche would need to be bigger to have a bigger engine and more fuel.
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#67 Breunor

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 06:56 AM

j'ordos and I IM'd about it, it's just a matter of scaling the model. From the last pic comparing both missiles, the avalanche is like 10 times larger regarding volume. I see it being maybe 50% longer and twice as thick, that would still make it bigger but not by such a huge amount. It's not a big issue though.

#68 j'ordos

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 07:28 AM

So I checked the real sizes of a Sidewinder and an AMRAAM, and the Sidewinder has a length of nearly 3m, and the AMRAAM a little more than 3,6m (about 10 and 12 feet respectively), and I changed the models accordingly (the Avalanche is better than the AMRAAM though, so I made it a little longer still, and of course it is the 40% wider version too, it's in fact more of a cross-breed between an AMRAAM and a Phoenix ^_^ )

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Edited by j'ordos, 02 October 2003 - 07:30 AM.

"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
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#69 Breunor

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 12:45 PM

:master: Those look much better next to each other! :happybanana:

#70 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 01:00 PM

I concur, they look like they would fit in perferctly.
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#71 Vaaish

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 03:21 PM

yup, very nice work.

#72 SupSuper

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 03:37 PM

Indeed, pretty good.

I gotta look for some good 3ds max tutorials :hammer:

too bad, now you will never know the ancient secrets of supsupers long gone avatar ;)

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#73 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 11:47 PM

3dcafe.com is alright, tho it is best to play around yourself with stuff. Just say to yourself what you want to achieve and think how it could be done with the tools you currently know how to use. If you think you don't know the right tool find some tutorials that use the kind of effect you want. Everyone is constantly learning so I wouldn't worry too much, as with everything it is just practice and knowing the tools.

Missiles just look right to me btw, can't think of a better term than right for them :)

#74 Breunor

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 07:08 AM

Phrase for Jim: "The visual conceptualization of the missiles fits quite succinctly within Jim's Xenocide reality schema."

#75 SupSuper

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:48 PM

3dcafe.com is alright, tho it is best to play around yourself with stuff. Just say to yourself what you want to achieve and think how it could be done with the tools you currently know how to use. If you think you don't know the right tool find some tutorials that use the kind of effect you want. Everyone is constantly learning so I wouldn't worry too much, as with everything it is just practice and knowing the tools.

Missiles just look right to me btw, can't think of a better term than right for them :)

well, all i know how to do is put primivites and add to them color/texture so i think i'll go have a look at 3dcafe.com ;)
3dsmax 4 includes tutorials, but they require some Learning CD :cussing:

too bad, now you will never know the ancient secrets of supsupers long gone avatar ;)

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#76 Rhyos Beoulve

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 01:27 PM

;0; *bawls for joy* Beautiful...

#77 j'ordos

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 04:14 PM

Well, I don't hear anyone complaining so I have uploaded the Avalanche to FTP too, and replaced the Stingray file with a new one that has the correct size. (they are saved with the fins as separate objects (instanced, don't know if that carries over as .3ds?), I would think that's easier for skinning but if it's not, tell me and I'll upload them again as one single mesh object)

Edited by j'ordos, 04 October 2003 - 01:00 AM.

"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
"The mind is like an umbrella, it functions best when open" - Walter Gropius
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#78 fux0r666

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 07:23 PM

This is quick sketch of what I had in mind.. well, kind of. I got a little carried away in the few minutes I was sketching this out. It was fun!

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Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#79 Deimos

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 09:51 AM

Jordos, just a quick Q as yeah everyone likes your missiles (don't take that the wrong way ;)) Do they fit in with our scaling? Other than that I'd say yeah call it and move on.

Fux. Although the concept is nice, it doesn't fit in with the style guide. Human weapons are ultra modern and based on real technology.

Also it wouldn't fly, well not with any accuracy. The aerodynamics are just plain wrong. There would be vortices that would seriously destablise the missle in the gap betweenthe big fin and the rear fin and also on the frontal fin area. The rear fin shape would create a huge amount of drag with those leading edges. It'd be very manueverable at low speed but thats easily corrected with vectored thrust anway.

#80 Crix Dorius

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 09:56 AM

Like this Fux ?!?

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#81 j'ordos

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 11:44 AM

Jordos, just a quick Q as yeah everyone likes your missiles (don't take that the wrong way ;)) Do they fit in with our scaling? Other than that I'd say yeah call it and move on.

How do you mean? They don't actually show in game, just in xnet, right? So what would the scaling do? (If it makes you feel any better, the last pic on the previous page shows the Avalanche and Stingray in their respective sizes, the Stingray being 3 m long, the Avalanche about 3.75 m)
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#82 Maverick

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 12:12 PM

scaling doesn't mean a whole lot within the game, it should just be a matter of setting the scale that you want the model displayed at. However, it would be good if the model was built to our scale so that we don't increase/decrease its size to much when trying to scale it. If you can find information about real missiles and use that to determine if those are the right length (according to my calcs, the missiles are between 9 and 12 feet long...i've never seen a real one, but that sounds a little big). Its not of paramount importance, but if you aren't doing anything else, scaling it saves us time later.

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#83 Deimos

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 12:54 PM

Basically what Mav said. :)

#84 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 01:03 PM

Well, could we use fux's (and Crix's model) missile for the fusion missile launcher?
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#85 j'ordos

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 01:17 PM

scaling doesn't mean a whole lot within the game, it should just be a matter of setting the scale that you want the model displayed at.  However, it would be good if the model was built to our scale so that we don't increase/decrease its size to much when trying to scale it.  If you can find information about real missiles and use that to determine if those are the right length (according to my calcs, the missiles are between 9 and 12 feet long...i've never seen a real one, but that sounds a little big).  Its not of paramount importance, but if you aren't doing anything else, scaling it saves us time later.

-Mav

Ok, in that case...

i based them on the Sidewinder and Amraam, and kept their real lengths (I was surprised too, but they really are that long). Since the Avalanche is more powerful than the Amraam I did make that one somewhat longer, but only 10-20 centimeters.

edit: and the models are life-size too

Edited by j'ordos, 14 October 2003 - 01:18 PM.

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#86 Deimos

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 01:56 PM

Well, could we use fux's (and Crix's model) missile for the fusion missile launcher?

Que? what is this fusion missile? Where is it and how much are they and can I buy them in bulk? :P

Surely you mean the fusion ball launcher, in which case a funky looking missile just ain't gonna work :whatwhat:

#87 Breunor

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 02:38 PM

Perhaps a fusion missile was mentioned in the lab as a v1+ weapon? Certainly not in X-Com however. Fusion ball launcher wouldn't fire a missile like that.

#88 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 02:39 PM

It fired a type of Blaster Bomb did it not?

#89 Cmdr. Luke

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 02:47 PM

It fired a fusion ball. (unless your talking about something other than UFO Defense).

#90 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 02:49 PM

Which was based upon Blaster Bomb technology IIRC.

#91 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 03:16 PM

Well, I always thought that that "fusion ball" was rather odd, so I called it a fusion missile. Oops. ^_^

Anyway, I was just trying to think up a way to incorporate Crix's model into the game because it looks damn good.
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#92 j'ordos

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 03:30 PM

Maybe by removing the front wings and using it as missile for the missile tank? The rear wings would be retractable, so it could be a FFR (Folding Fin Rocket)?
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#93 red knight

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 06:53 PM

For a HWP rocket it looks cool, cause in that case you have slow velocity but you need high maneubrability (or how the heck you spell it), so mobile parts are needed to direct the air flow..

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#94 fux0r666

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 07:45 PM

Yes, indeed, Crix. I love you.

This missile is totally based on the technology of today. It takes the pheonix missile and makes the fins seem a little more advanced.

I intended it to demonstrate different possibilities for fin shapes and other kinds of things that can be put on missiles. I thought perhaps I would help flesh out the idea pool while I had a moment.

I don't have anything against the other missile designs but I'm at odds with the fin designs of the avalanche missile. It looks a little like the model rocket kits that you see advertized in the backs of old comic books.

I think something based on the TOW or LAW would suffice for the rocket launchers. You don't need a heck of a lot of missile to deliver a warhead capable of cracking light armour, especially if the charges are shaped or designed to expel fragmentations or a spalling sabot. Half of the problem with the original xcom is the utter absurdity of the size of the weapons and munitions.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#95 Breunor

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Posted 15 October 2003 - 09:17 AM

The fuxor/Crix missile looks like a good concept for the missile-HWP to me.

#96 fux0r666

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Posted 15 October 2003 - 08:14 PM

Realistically, however, those missiles would be unguided rockets.

If it's anything other than a long range air to air missile, it would be a SAM for the missile defense... I don't really care if you use it as is or not (in all seriousness, it was just all the features I could think of put on a longrange looking AIM).. but if realism is what you're going for, the missiles that come out of the HWP's would be folding fin rockets, in all likelihood. After that they would be tube launched, laser guided missiles, about the size of a plumbing pipe. Surface to surface missiles are usually fired line of site at relatively low speeds, there is very little need for them to maneouver.

The decision to put the vectors on was heat of the moment. I figured that it would be designed to chase the next generation of 3d vectoring fighters like the su-37... and since you can see long range missiles coming at the edge of your radar range, I figured they would need to be very maneouverable to get the drop on those bastards... and I was looking for an excuse to make the Avalanche more accurate than the stingray when shooting down these aforementioned supermaneouverable ufos.

I've always had trouble with that concept. If the ufos can stop on a dime and accellerate beyond human limits of human visual sensory perception, they must WANT to get shot down or they must be going easy on the humans... whom they pitty... or something.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#97 j'ordos

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 08:32 AM

Well, since I haven't been working on a skin yet anyway, thought I'd try some more then for the Avalanche. Well, now it's more of a cross-over between Phoenix/AMRAAM/BVRAAM (those pods on the side stem from that one, just type in BVRAAM or FMRAAM in google, searching for images)

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"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
"The mind is like an umbrella, it functions best when open" - Walter Gropius
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GRRGH RGGHH SNORRTT GHACKHGG

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#98 Deimos

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 08:33 AM

Yeah it'd work in the more low speed application of the Hwp's where manuverability is more important.

Fux, I never really questioned the feasability of firing a missile at a ufo, I guess becasue its an extension of suspeding disbelief :)

Like you say if ufo's can stop on a dime and bugger of a a fantastic rate of knots a missile wouldn't cut it. But at the start of the game xcom are facing "enemy unkown" so they wouldn't be using missile with all the bells and whistles on them but current off the shelf hardware.

It'd be a bit strange to be basing all the other base level human tech on their real world compatriats and then go the whole hog on a missile :)

Edited by Deimos, 16 October 2003 - 09:23 AM.


#99 j'ordos

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 08:34 AM

And without those pods

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#100 Deimos

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 09:14 AM

I don't mean to be horrible but it looks much better and more business like without the pods. The forward facing spikes kinda make it look like a medieval version. :P It look smuch cleaner without.