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T-shirt Armour: merged topics


Guest drewid

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Vary the breasts too, a little DD here, a little EE there :biggrin:
J/K but you are correct Jim, a xcom girl would be athletic, and muscular. And, due to recovered alien technology, have Lara Croft sized breasts! (Hey that alien surgery has to be for something right? :D

I assume we will have even more difference between male and female model when in personal armor. The ctd seems to think that the pers. Armor is manufactured to be generic, the armor later adjusts itself to fit its wearer.

Power armor would be like the original game, you can't tell wether it is a male, female, or :naughty: chryssalid under that suit.
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[quote name='Vaaish' date='Aug 21 2003, 10:07 PM']Jim: before you get too far, remmeber to make the head as a separate object so we can swap them in and out easily.[/quote]
Isn't it a simple case of detaching it? Or should I build it completly seperate? I take it that this is 4 the female/male ones, if not then it is just a texture issue right?

BTW, what kind of poly limit and I looking at? The X.Net issue isn't particulary complicated as there is always meshsmooth, but its a pain in the arse 2 make it less poly's in my (little) experience. Tho there is an optimise modifier, I've never tried it so I don't know how effective it is, or if u lose a lot of the shape that way.
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[quote name='Jim69' date='Aug 21 2003, 05:27 PM'][quote name='Vaaish' date='Aug 21 2003, 10:07 PM'] Jim: before you get too far, remmeber to make the head as a separate object so we can swap them in and out easily.[/quote]
Isn't it a simple case of detaching it? Or should I build it completly seperate? I take it that this is 4 the female/male ones, if not then it is just a texture issue right?

BTW, what kind of poly limit and I looking at? The X.Net issue isn't particulary complicated as there is always meshsmooth, but its a pain in the arse 2 make it less poly's in my (little) experience. Tho there is an optimise modifier, I've never tried it so I don't know how effective it is, or if u lose a lot of the shape that way. [/quote]
In a way yes it iis but you will have to rebuild the bottom of the head, either way it in't a big thing but I did want you to be aware of it before you meshed the skull and neck with too much detail.

For xnet e are looking at around 3000 polys but for battlescape 1500 max. I'd stick with hte 1500 for now since it is fairly easy to add detail and alot harder to take it out. Alsot try to stay away from the auto optomise features since they usually don't do quite as good a job as a human.
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Cool, that's pretty much what I thought, easy to add poly's but a bastard 2 get rid of. Anything else I should be awere of? I take it the bone's are gonna ave the neck join, sholder, elbow, hip and knee joints?
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[quote name='Jim69' date='Aug 21 2003, 06:13 PM']Cool, that's pretty much what I thought, easy to add poly's but a bastard 2 get rid of. Anything else I should be awere of? I take it the bone's are gonna ave the neck join, sholder, elbow, hip and knee joints?[/quote]
Don't worry about boning for now. just remeber to add extra polys at the elbow and knees minimum and if you have it a few extra on the shoulders waist and wrists.
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I got plenty extra, this is only comin in at about 700 polys :huh?: Err, I used the MeshSmooth mod. and it converted it 2 NURBS, which I didn't expect. Oh well, should I change it back, or is NURBS not a problem?

Edit: I know the arms look like matchsticks, I'll fix that 2morrow as I was workin more on getting the legs right :)

BTW, I tried doin a placeholder skin when I was bored and I couldn't apply it 2 my model. Is that coz I ave done it with splines? Edited by Jim69
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I'm merging several topics together here about the T shirt armor, so this thread will look a little different to those recently posting...
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OK, sometimes I think that things need a little tweaking, and sometimes I just have 2 throw things out and start again coz I made a mess of em. This time it's the latter. I think ( dunno bout ne1 else ) that my model look suspiciously like a lego model, crap and completly out of sync with Vaaish's power armour model. I know it's my first try at something this complicated but I have 2 demand better since I, like everyone else here, doesn't want a shoddy product. So basically I ave started from scratch and come up with something I am a little happier with.

I am still like a new born baby seeing the world 4 the first time at modelling, so please just say if it's crap I won't be offended, I often need that 2 push myself that bit further. So, 2 that end I ave done what I think is a far superior model.

Well, enough criticising myself 4 now, here it is. :)

Edit: I'm still unsure about the groin area but I don't know what it is, can someone else spot it? Edited by Jim69
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he needs more form inthe chest area, right now he looks like he got crushed. try to get a side view of a human and base the form off that a bit more.
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K, found a concept drawing of a humanoid that someone was usin 2 model from so I got that. Made him look a bit feminine in the ol' chest department so I altered it a little and got this. I also modelled the boots, took some work 2 get them 2 not look crappy but I am happy with them now :)
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Based on the pic taken from the front, the arms appear to be 1 stack from shoulder to wrist. Is that the case? I suggest at least 2 or 3 stacks for the shoulder, several for the upper arm, several for the elbow joint, and several more for the lower arm. I suggest making the male version first, as the arm muscles would be a little more pronounced. For proportions, check out some of the mens fitness magazines, not where it's a body builder, but more of the "healthy/active guy" build. Granted, most of the muscle details will be hidden under the field uniform, but we could make the soldiers wear tank tops like Arnold did in predator. :rock: Well, I guess just having it come in a little tighter at the elbows to suggest some muscle is all that's really needed, since it'll probably be long sleeves in any case. Just wishful thinking...

As to poly count, don't forget that the 1500 poly count includes the head and any pouches/backpack type stuff too, so keeping the main body to 1000 is a good thing.
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Don't worry, I'm on the case :D Poly's will be just under 1500 I think after I optimise it, as is it is 800 but there is more 2 go on, hands, head, packs towards the back and the Land Warrior eye piece. Here's a pic of the structure of the body 2 show u where I ave put the joints, that look enough?
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Vaaish will know best about the joints deforming. Could you post a wireframe pic of one of the armors Vaaish? Or Jim could download the model if it's on the server, and compare. On the milkshape web site there's a tutorial for making a halflife model of a woman that is very detailed. You can find it [url="http://www.dosfx.com/tutorials/csgirl/default.asp"]here.[/url]

It might take a while, as it's all made a vertex and poly at a time. If you get some profile shots to work with, you can create your own version the same way.
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Hmm, I looked at it but it seems a mighty waste of time doin it vertex by vertex when the spline tool can create any shape u want, and if u need more verticies there's always the split edge tool. It may be different in Milkshape tho, I've used it b4 when I was younger but being 14 and tryin 2 do things without ne help was a challenge :) I dunno if it was just that bad experience but I much prefer 3DSM, at first it is more complicated but pays off in the end IMO. Altho it is expensive, unless u ave a bro who has got it on his comp from Uni :LOL:

Edit: OK, here's the l8st. Ne1 see ne thing wrong with the model as is? I figure this is the view it will be seen by so this is the best view 2 use 4 a screengrab. Ne1 know a good way of doin hands? Edited by Jim69
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K, here is my finished version, tho I think it could use some work, especially on the hands but I'm not quite sure what's wrong with it. It weighs in at 1506 convinently, especially considering that I didn't even plan how many poly's it would take and haven't optimised it at all :)
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make the BDU's a bit more baggy and make the pouches onthe waist cubes instead of the lozenges you have to save polys then add more detail to the flack jacket and add a few wrincles to the BDU's as well. for the hands make an tapered oval for the main part of the hand and a bent stick for the thumb.
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K, but won't a lot of the wrinkles of the flak vest and shirt be better to be on the texture than with poly's? I'll try the hand thing and change the belt items as well, as well as making everything a little more baggier. The legs are OK as far as that goes I think.
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[quote name='Jim69' date='Aug 25 2003, 06:08 PM']K, but won't a lot of the wrinkles of the flak vest and shirt be better to be on the texture than with poly's? I'll try the hand thing and change the belt items as well, as well as making everything a little more baggier. The legs are OK as far as that goes I think.[/quote]
actually I think the legs are what needs to be a bit more loose.

Yes you are right texture can do alot of the wrinkles but a few here and there can really spice up the model. since textures are flat and what looks like a wrinkle from the front might now from the top or side.
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OK, I see ur point, but at the kind of zoom we are talking about usin 4 the game noone is gonna see these fine details on the model are they? Fair play about the legs tho, I'll widen em a little.

Edit: For the X.Net it's a different story tho. How many poly's ave I got 2 work with 4 the X.Net design? Coz I think I can create a really detailed model 4 that once the lower poly one is rdy, but I don't wanna go over budget :) Edited by Jim69
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It could be the camera angle, bit all of his limbs are out of joint. If any of you 3d artists wants me to make a few human physiology templates for you, I'd be glad to do it. I've got an extensive knowledge of bone and mucle placement and joint oreintation.

Otherwise, I would suggest downloading that drawing of Leonardo Da Vinci's that Nasa put on the voyager space probes as an embossment.
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Yeah, I've been more worried about gettin the basic shape 2gether, I'll fix arm lengths/joint positions at the end. I know the pic u r talkin about, good idea, I'll get myself a copy and work out the correct placements.
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That would be very helpful, thanks. However, I think a lot of the joints would ave 2 be moved once the bones 4 animation are created so all the models are uniform, but it still helps 2 ave them in position b4 they start. Saves the poor animator(s) a lot of unnecessary work.

I also agree with ur comments about unnatural positions 4 arms etc., it isn't a trivial matter and can really detract from the game IMO. Edited by Jim69
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Here is my human male template I quickly cranked out while watching CSI.

Note the fingers on the extended hand are a little too long.

The ribcage like space I drew in is to give you an idea of the body's mobility, it's doesn't actually represent the ribcage. It's too large. I appologize for the large format but I thought it would be much better to give you a picture that was too large than too small.

Other notes: This head is 1/8th the total body height. In life the head is actually more around 1/6th, but it looks more proper in 2d media if it's smaller. I added a bunch of guide lines for basic perportion/shoulder/eye/mouth/nose placement and the like. I hope you find it educational.

Also note that the forarms do not connect with the humorous at 180 degrees. They are offset on an angle towards the thumb. Edited by fux0r666
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Thanx a lot, don't worry I got a fast connection ne wayz and at 1600x1200 everything looks small :)

I'll load it up in the BG and make the alterations when I get back.
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For the X-Net model you can play around with 5-6K. I know the vert by vert method seems slow, but it really does give you the best control and detail, at least in Milkshape IMO. Since I haven't used the other apps I expect the mileage varies. Edited by Breunor
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[quote name='j'ordos' date='Aug 26 2003, 12:25 AM']Is it me or do the arms look to long for that body? I can't really tell for sure because of perspective, but it looks like his elbow reaches his hip :wacko:[/quote]
Just reread ur post and dunno bout u but my elbow comes down to the top of my hip bone :huh?:

Ne wayz, here is ( hopefully ) a more anatomically correct model. This better than the last, or should I go back 2 that 1? Edited by Jim69
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What are you, a gorilla? :P My elbow definitely does not reach my hip, and i checked with some others here, with identical results (at first I thought it was my arm that was short, but seeing that I started doubting you :D )

About those proportions, could you give a view directly from the front?
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As you can see on the drawing I gave you that the elbow does indeed come close to the top of the pelvic bone, although there is a certain variation in the species. The elbow coming down to the hip bone, however, is slightly abberant and less than ideal. Are you slouching at all whilst you take those measurements?
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The top of my my elbow hits the very top of my hip bone, which is about 4 inches from the very bottom of my rib cage. I was standing up straight and I didn't measure, just digged my elbows into the side 2 get a rough estimate of where they fall. Tho on my previous model they came down more towards the middle of the hip bone, which is more like a gorrila -_- Edited by Jim69
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Well, that's what I meant, it seemed the elbow came to the same height as the widest part of the hip, sorry if I was a bit vague.

But my arms follow the shape of my body, so my elbows are at the same height as my waist, which seems to be about 5 centimeters (+/- 2inches) above the top of my pelvic bone (maybe I'm a freak though ^_^ ) Edited by j'ordos
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If I'm not mistaken, that's about 185-190 centimeters, that's a bit longer than I am (180)

But in the end it probably won't be a big deal, as long as the hands aren't touching the knees when standing straight, or not even reaching his hips I doubt anyone will notice, on the scale this game will work. (ok, for X-Net, that's a different story, but individual variance can be the cause for any discrepancy between pic and player ^_^ )
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Well, unless they are standing 2 attencion 4 the X-Net then it won't be a problem.

Edit: I got so consumed with arm lengths and exactly where they fall that I forgot what I was talking about b4. Ne1 see any probs with the overall shape? If not I'll get the hands and boots done rdy 4 the skinning ( the hard part :cussing: ) Edited by Jim69
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The overall shape will have to be tweaked as you allow for clothing and equipment. For now it look good enough to get the hands and feet on.
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Heh, I was thinkin of some tight leather 4 the laydeez, seemed 2 work 4 Tomb Raider think how many peeps brought that :P I'll make the whole thing a bit looser :)
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The torso (not including the head) should be 3 eights of the total body height in length. The first eighth terminates at the nipples, the next, the belly button and the next the bottom of the crotch. The next four eigths are all leg, the thighs and the shins including the feet are both two eighths long. There is a scale next to the body that I put in after I drew the body and arms but before I put in the arm handing down. It's partially eclpised by the left arm and it was slightly eaten by the scan but you should be able to make it out. Edited by fux0r666
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I don't think it needs 2 be that precise personally, as long as it looks fairly accurate. I'll move the crotch down a little but there is no point in coming up with precise measurements since the zoom is gonna be 2 far 2 make it worth while. At least 4 the battlescape version, these kinda things would prob be needed 4 the X.Net version tho.
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I'm a little more perfectionist, myself. I would iron out every conceivable flaw so as to have less to do later.

How will these be animated? In my 3dsmax course we built our caracters like GI Joes and assigned a skeletal heirarchy. It was the easiest way to keep track of exactly where the joints connected, and you could model them around like dolls very easily to adjust keyframe poses.
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[quote name='fux0r666' date='Aug 30 2003, 08:45 PM']I'm a little more perfectionist, myself.  I would iron out every conceivable flaw so as to have less to do later.

How will these be animated?  In my 3dsmax course we built our caracters like GI Joes and assigned a skeletal heirarchy.  It was the easiest way to keep track of exactly where the joints connected, and you could model them around like dolls very easily to adjust keyframe poses.[/quote]
Probably as a single piece deformable skin since this usually tends to leave fewer oddities with clipping at the joints. With a proper rig it shouldn't be an issue with keying for animation.
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I split out the discussion about concept art in 3D classes to another thread. Here's the part of Jim's comment that was moved yet was relevant here:

[quote]I understand ur concerns, I don't want a shoddy product any more than u I think, but the point is that tweaking this model 2 perfectly line it up with true human physiology is a waste of time. The reason is this: It doesn't matter how much I tweak it, when the overall bone structure is done by the animator ( I take it we are gonna reuse the same bones 4 all human models ) then all the joints will be moved ne way. If u ne good at animating ( I've never tried it ) u could do a skeletal design 2 use if there isn't already 1 done, then there won't be any scaling or joint altering issues on any of the human models.[/quote]

I think it would make very good sense to have a reference drawing that's as close to scale as possible. Models made from it will look right in both the X-Net and battlescape, and animations will work best as well.
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k, I see ur point but AFAIK won't the joints need 2 be moved when animating anyway? Just coz 1 person has a scaled model 2 human physiology doesn't mean that the next person has used the same template, so joints aren't gonna be the same straight away but the animating skeleton will be.

Ne wayz, I got everything modelled just need tweaking here and there, however I'm not very good at spotting this kinda thing, guess it's coz I am new 2 it. Here's the pic:

Edit: I know that the legs look like they are different but it is just the angle, I have floated round the whole model and I am confident that is the reason. I also applied a test skin the other day and found out that slight shading problems are completly hidden by the skin 4 some reason.

Poly's: 1142 Edited by Jim69
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There is very little variation in human physiology in terms of where the joints are placed and the relative sizes of things, especially when you're referring to a class of human beings who all have the same general habits: ie. soldiers. I doubt there will much disagreement in the general make up of the human characters, especially with the 6' size template.

The pic looks good. Check out pictures of helmets to fine tune the shape of the head.

[url="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/pasgt.htm"]FAS.org PASGT helmet page[/url]

[url="http://www.rbrtactical.com/markii_helmet.asp"]RBR Tactical PASGT helmet Mkii w/o cover from 3/4 side view.[/url]

[url="http://www.rbrtactical.com/combat_helmet.asp"]RBR Tactical PASGT level IIIA helmet w/o cover from square front and side view.[/url]
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Has ne1 created a skeleton 4 animating yet? Really I do need 1 just as a reference point b4 I start skinning, I spent the last couple of days splitting up the model into flattenable chunks but b4 I start doin the UV Map's I need the skeleton 2 line up the joints. I got them pretty much close 2 human anatomy but it really needs 2 be inline with the other models.
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