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CTD - Repeater Cannon


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#51 Blehm 98

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 03:06 PM

I found an extremely cool weapon while browsing military.com, although this is 40mm, it could give you a base for a 20mm gun

http://www.military....K19&cat=w&lev=2
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#52 fux0r666

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 05:21 AM

Ah yes, the mk19.

I think the experimental 25mm systems that I was talking about earlier would be a closer match, particularly the xm109.

http://en.wikipedia....i/25_mm_grenade - general about the grenade round.

http://world.guns.ru...nade/gl13-e.htm - xm25, replacement for the m203.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Barrett_XM109 - xm109, a replacement for the .50 Barret m82.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCSW - xm307, a replacement for the mk19 and m2hb bmg.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#53 kafros

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Posted 29 January 2006 - 08:30 AM

So, THIS was the autocannon...... Sry for the confusion people :D

Bumping it for reference.

#54 FullAuto

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 11:54 AM

Changed all of it, mostly just in little ways.

REPEATER CANNON - RC-110
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/Repeater Cannon

The Repeater Cannon is a very versatile weapon, capable of firing 15mm caliber High Explosive (HE), Armor Piercing (AP), or Incendiary (I) ammunition at a high rate of fire (ROF). Unfortunately, the RC-110 is extremely heavy and thus should only be carried by the strongest of soldiers. The AP rounds are standard ammunition and should be used in most circumstances. HE rounds should not be used in confined spaces or in close proximity to the target. Incendiary rounds should be used primarily to smoke out an enemy from its hiding space.

The AR-110 Repeater Cannon is a fully automatic man-portable assault/support weapon. It uses magazines of 14 rounds to minimize weight as much as possible. Unfortunately, the magazines are still incredibly heavy compared to standard 5.56mm rifle magazines. The Repeater Cannon itself is extremely heavy, in spite of the fact that it is primarily made of high-density polymer. Its high ROF, combined with its reasonable accuracy make it a powerful weapon.

Armor Piercing (AP): These rounds utilise a fin-stabilised discarding sabot tungsten alloy dart, designed to provide significant penetration (60mm of rolled homogenous steel armour at 500m). They are the bread and butter of an AC-110 gunner.

High Explosive (HE): Essentially small fragmentation grenades.  They detonate upon impact, the casing of the round transforming into shrapnel, resulting in an effective explosive radius of 2 metres.

Incendiary (I): Better known as white phosphorous (WP, or Willie Pete), this is another impact-detonated round, consisting of a thick layer of WP around a small central explosive charge.  Upon striking the target, the charge explodes, spraying WP in a 3 meter radius and burning until completely consumed or deprived of oxygen.

"When I first came out of boot, Sarge gave me the best advice I've ever heard. He said: ‘Son, don't ever hit on a girl who carries a one-ten. It'd take less effort to rip off both your arms than it takes to lift one of those.’ "
–Corporal Hermann Magstar


Still rough, but it's another step forward.
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#55 Mad

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 12:45 PM

Good job! =b

Could you write a short introduction sentence? Like I don't know, write that it was designed in the whatever wars, but prooved too heavy, or that it is a supreme design right out of the X-Labs, or whatever...

The Repeater Cannon itself is extremely heavy, in spite of the fact that it is primarily made of high-density polymer.

Shouldn't it be extremely heavy despite the fact...?

They are the bread and butter of an AC-110 gunner.

Though I have to agree this reads nice, it should not be used in a scientific report. This is not an advertising leaflet from the manufacturer... :)
Keep smiling while dying

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And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#56 FullAuto

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 12:53 PM

Fair points. :)

REPEATER CANNON - RC-110
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/Repeater Cannon

First appearing as part of several modular weapon concepts at the beginning of the 21st century, the basic design of the Repeater Cannon was then shelved because of weight and size considerations.  When technology caught up with the designer's ambition, several prototypes were quickly built, tested, and found eminently suitable for an anti-extraterrestrial role.
 
The Repeater Cannon is a very versatile weapon, capable of firing 15mm caliber High Explosive (HE), Armor Piercing (AP), or Incendiary (I) ammunition at a high rate of fire (ROF). Unfortunately, the RC-110 is extremely heavy and thus should only be carried by the strongest of soldiers. The AP rounds are standard ammunition and should be used in most circumstances. HE rounds should not be used in confined spaces or in close proximity to the target. Incendiary rounds should be used primarily to smoke out an enemy from its hiding space.

The AR-110 Repeater Cannon is a fully automatic man-portable assault/support weapon. It uses magazines of 14 rounds to minimize weight as much as possible. Unfortunately, the magazines are still incredibly heavy compared to standard 5.56mm rifle magazines. The Repeater Cannon itself is extremely heavy, despite being primarily made of high-density polymer. Its high ROF, combined with its reasonable accuracy and variety of ammunition make it a powerful weapon.

Armor Piercing (AP): These rounds utilise a fin-stabilised discarding sabot tungsten alloy dart, designed to provide significant penetration (60mm of rolled homogenous steel armour at 500m).

High Explosive (HE): Essentially small fragmentation grenades.  They detonate upon impact, the casing of the round transforming into shrapnel, resulting in an effective explosive radius of 2 metres.

Incendiary (I): Better known as white phosphorous (WP, or Willie Pete), this is another impact-detonated round, consisting of a thick layer of WP around a small central explosive charge.  Upon striking the target, the charge explodes, spraying WP in a 3 meter radius and burning until completely consumed or deprived of oxygen.

"When I first came out of boot, Sarge gave me the best advice I've ever heard. He said: ‘Son, don't ever hit on a girl who carries a one-ten. It'd take less effort to rip off both your arms than it takes to lift one of those.’ "
–Corporal Hermann Magstar


Edited by FullAuto, 12 March 2006 - 12:56 PM.

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#57 Mad

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 01:24 PM

Much better. :)
You might want to work on the third paragraph (§).
Maybe turn around the sentence with the heaviness of the cannon. like "despite beeing... it is extremely heavy"
Could you elaborate on the last sentence of the 3rd § so it becomes a § of it's own? Because I feel it doesn't fit in the 3rd §, but would look strange if left allone. :)
Can you find a way around the three "should" in the first §? (AP..should, HE...should, I...should)
I don't know if it should be changed, so just for your consideration: What about the end of the 1st §? Was the cannon really designed that short before the beginning of the game (so it's more or less still a prototype) or has it seen some action somewhere? I just stumbeled over the last part "[...]and found eminently suitable for an anti-extraterrestrial role." It somehow feels strange, like it all happened in an extreme rush - but maybe it's just me.
Keep smiling while dying

Of course I have gone mad with power! It would be completely ridiculous to go mad without power!
And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#58 FullAuto

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 01:34 PM

Changes in blue.

REPEATER CANNON - RC-110
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/Repeater Cannon

First appearing as part of several modular weapon concepts at the beginning of the 21st century, the design and prototypes of the Repeater Cannon were then shelved because of weight and size considerations.  When technology caught up with the designer's ambition, several were quickly built, tested in combat through several small classified engagements and found eminently suitable for an anti-extraterrestrial role.
 
The Repeater Cannon is a very versatile weapon, capable of firing 15mm caliber High Explosive (HE), Armor Piercing (AP), or Incendiary (I) ammunition at a high rate of fire (ROF). Unfortunately, the RC-110 is extremely heavy and should only be carried by the strongest of soldiers. The AP rounds are standard ammunition, to be used in most circumstances. HE rounds should not be used in confined spaces or in close proximity to the target. Incendiary rounds are best utilised to drive enemies from cover.

The AR-110 Repeater Cannon is a fully automatic man-portable assault/support weapon. It uses magazines of 14 rounds to minimize weight as much as possible. Unfortunately, the magazines are still incredibly heavy compared to standard 5.56mm rifle magazines. Despite being primarily made of high-density polymer, the RC-110 is extremely heavy, yet its high ROF, combined with its reasonable accuracy and variety of ammunition make it a powerful weapon.

Armor Piercing (AP): These rounds utilise a fin-stabilised discarding sabot tungsten alloy dart, designed to provide significant penetration (60mm of rolled homogenous steel armour at 500m).

High Explosive (HE): Essentially small fragmentation grenades.  They detonate upon impact, the casing of the round transforming into shrapnel, resulting in an effective explosive radius of 2 metres.

Incendiary (I): Better known as white phosphorous (WP, or Willie Pete), this is another impact-detonated round, consisting of a thick layer of WP around a small central explosive charge.  Upon striking the target, the charge explodes, spraying WP in a 3 meter radius and burning until completely consumed or deprived of oxygen.

"When I first came out of boot, Sarge gave me the best advice I've ever heard. He said: ‘Son, don't ever hit on a girl who carries a one-ten. It'd take less effort to rip off both your arms than it takes to lift one of those.’ "
–Corporal Hermann Magstar


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#59 Mad

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 01:44 PM

Reads good. You should delete the Willi Pete stuff I think.
Are the radii correct? Maybe ask Zombie about this.
Keep smiling while dying

Of course I have gone mad with power! It would be completely ridiculous to go mad without power!
And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#60 FullAuto

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 01:49 PM

I doubt the radii are correct, though you can feel free to increase them if you have the game scale sorted out.
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#61 Zombie

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 02:20 PM

Are the radii correct? Maybe ask Zombie about this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Area effects? Sure, I know all about that. *ahem, glances at avatar* :blush1:

For the AC-HE round, the damage is imparted to a radius of 3 (ignoring Ground Zero). This equates to a diameter of 7. If you want to see a pic of the damage "shells" for AC-HE, look here. The AC-I is a little smaller. It has a radius of 2 (diameter of 5).

Assuming one tile equals one meter, then the two numbers need to be switched around in the text. :wink1:

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Edited by Zombie, 12 March 2006 - 02:23 PM.

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of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#62 fux0r666

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 04:15 AM

I have a suggestion:

The modern fragmentation devices utilize a notched wire wrapped around the warhead for fragments. The notched wire flies appart at the weak points, producing a cloud of cubes of steel that measure a few mm's in length.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#63 FullAuto

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 04:33 AM

No point. The casing of the explosive could be notched, just as effectively producing shrapnel. Using a casing and then a layer of notched wire would reduce the amount of explosive you could put into the casing.
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#64 fux0r666

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:21 AM

In the real world, notched casings do not reliably produce fragmentation. This is why the notched wire is used.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#65 FullAuto

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:26 AM

In the real world, notched casings do provide reliable fragmentation, though the effect is not always as 'even' as with a more easily damaged material like notched wire, and an outer casing is then necessary to protect the wire (in grenades, for example) as well as offering a more ergonomic shape for holding and throwing.

This isn't necessary in this case, as protection is offered by the jacket of the round right up until it is fired.
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#66 Mad

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:32 AM

In the real world, notched casings do provide reliable fragmentation, though the effect is not always as 'even' as with a more easily damaged material like notched wire, and an outer casing is then necessary to protect the wire (in grenades, for example) as well as offering a more ergonomic shape for holding and throwing.

This isn't necessary in this case, as protection is offered by the jacket of the round right up until it is fired.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I may interrupt the experts conversation here, isn't it HE amunition? Not a fragmentation grenade like type of fragmentation amunition? What I want to say, would it be reasonable imaginable, that there is no fragmentation at all, and it is just used for the blast? Like the good old demolition explosives?
Keep smiling while dying

Of course I have gone mad with power! It would be completely ridiculous to go mad without power!
And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#67 FullAuto

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:36 AM

The round isn't big enough for that, sadly. Sorry. Unless you want to use a bigger round (though the HC is 25mm, right? So if you scale this up, you might have to scale that up) then fragmentation is your best bet.
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#68 Mad

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:43 AM

The round isn't big enough for that, sadly.  Sorry.  Unless you want to use a bigger round (though the HC is 25mm, right?  So if you scale this up, you might have to scale that up) then fragmentation is your best bet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it? What's about an aerosol bomb like priciple?
Keep smiling while dying

Of course I have gone mad with power! It would be completely ridiculous to go mad without power!
And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#69 FullAuto

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:51 AM

It is, yes. With an aerosol (deploying an explosive agent into the air around it upon impact and then detonating, I presume you mean), you would get a less powerful, though probably wider in area, explosion, what with the mass being relatively diffuse compared to thickly-packed solid explosive.
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#70 Mad

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 09:27 AM

It is, yes.  With an aerosol (deploying an explosive agent into the air around it upon impact and then detonating, I presume you mean), you would get a less powerful, though probably wider in area, explosion, what with the mass being relatively diffuse compared to thickly-packed solid explosive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's what I meant. Hm.. too bad...
Keep smiling while dying

Of course I have gone mad with power! It would be completely ridiculous to go mad without power!
And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#71 FullAuto

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 10:37 AM

You could still use that idea, by all means. I have no doubt it's feasible, even with today's technology to make a similar round. It wouldn't be very powerful, probably next to useless against hard targets, but it would probably make a good anti-personnel weapon. We are talking about a decade in the future, after all. If you want aerosol-based, let's have it. It'll certainly be a change from the norm.
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#72 Mad

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 10:42 AM

Nono, don't get me wrong. I do not insist on that. It was merely an idea I had, because, if I remember correctly HE is pretty bad against armoured targets. But I could be veeery wrong with this. Zombie? :)
Keep smiling while dying

Of course I have gone mad with power! It would be completely ridiculous to go mad without power!
And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#73 FullAuto

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 10:44 AM

I think most of the HE weapons just aren't powerful enough to be much use against some of the later aliens in the game, if I remember rightly.
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#74 Zombie

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 12:55 PM

... because, if I remember correctly HE is pretty bad against armoured targets. But I could be veeery wrong with this. Zombie? :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All alien targets in EU have some armor; and having armor does is necessarily mean that the target cannot be hurt/killed. HE has a couple things going for it over conventional ammunition: the blast always does a minimum damage > 0, and it affects Under Armor at GZ, GZ+1 and GZ+2. Therefore, a unit standing 2 tiles away from ground zero will have it’s under armor affected.

To put this in perspective, AC-HE can injure all Superhuman aliens in the game except for the Sectopod (it has too high Under armor). To kill aliens it sometimes requires more power. AC-HE is actually enough to kill all Floaters and Sectoids, and can kill all Snakemen except for the commander (it needs a grenade). Surprisingly, AC-HE can even kill a Reaper with one shot!

So as you can see, HE is not a bad choice. In fact, it is a better choice than conventional bullet-type ammo in quite a few situations. :)

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#75 fux0r666

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:22 PM

Yeah, the fuel air explosive has been deployed in rounds as small as the SMAW rocket launcher's 83mm round. It has been observed to totally collapse smaller residential dwellings with a single hit- but I think that the shockwave and vacuum effects created by such a system would be limited by the small amount of filler that could be fit into a 25mm shell.

In real life, straight HE explosives are fairly ineffective against pretty much everything when compared to systems that employ HE + another role-specific system to augment its performance (ie. HEAT, HE-frag) or by employing a combination of systems (HE-DP (HE-frag + HEAT)). Most 40mm grenades fired from systems like the m203 are HE-DP, I believe.

edit: curiously, what protects one against conventional explosive weapons actually increases the effectiveness of FAEs. Personal armour, cover proxmity to the ground actually amplifies the destructive effects of the very cohesive shockwave produced by FAEs. There's very little you can do to hide from them, and they provide a good compliment to conventional explosive rounds.

edit: not AT4, SMAW-NE.

Edited by fux0r666, 13 March 2006 - 05:32 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#76 FullAuto

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 09:28 AM

You could use a shaped charge type, but in that case the explosion would be focused in one direction (like demolition charges or High Explosive Anti-Tank rounds). So that's no good. There are HE-only rounds available for various weapon systems, so there's no reason the RC can't have one, the explosion would just be smaller (obviously). Fits in ok with the 2/3 metre radius.

Edited by FullAuto, 15 March 2006 - 09:51 AM.

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#77 fux0r666

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 10:20 AM

The point I was making was that straight he is good for nothing in such small amounts. It's not good for apers effects and it's not good for AP effects. Thus, HEDP. You're thinking of much larger rounds, I believe.

edit: the 20/25mm calibre grenades are mostly HEAB airbursting he. They provide similar casualty effects to a 40mm points detonating grenade- which is only a 5 meter area at any rate.

Edited by fux0r666, 15 March 2006 - 10:30 AM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#78 FullAuto

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 10:40 AM

Nope, there's a few HE-only rounds available for the M203 (very popular 40mm grenade launcher) and at least one for the M79 (M203s direct predecessor). Same for the Mk19, there's more HE-only rounds than there is HEDP.
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#79 fux0r666

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 03:45 PM

right, those rounds have 2ce the diameter we are talking about.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#80 FullAuto

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 12:51 AM

The effective casualty radius (defined as the radius of a circle around the point of detonation in which it may be expected that 50% of exposed troops will become casualties)of a 40mm HE-only grenade is 5 metres. Same as the HEDP round.

http://www.fas.org/m...s/land/m433.htm

http://www.fas.org/m...s/land/m406.htm

Looks like HE only is a viable choice. Nice one.

Edited by FullAuto, 16 March 2006 - 01:18 AM.

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#81 Mad

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:28 AM

The effective casualty radius (defined as the radius of a circle around the point of detonation in which it may be expected that 50% of exposed troops will become casualties)of a 40mm HE-only grenade is 5 metres.  Same as the HEDP round.

http://www.fas.org/m...s/land/m433.htm

http://www.fas.org/m...s/land/m406.htm

Looks like HE only is a viable choice.  Nice one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop it! Both of you! This is after all a game! It's nice to have a good background, but it's not worth spending more then three days discussing if it will be HEPD or plain HE. This is in the Future after all. I don't care what exactly you will use, but just write something feasible. Maybe they invented a new plastic explosive which is much more efficient and develops more "bang-per-gram"™ so that the original design will work again.
Don't get me wrong, I love to get in details, and I love it if people are discussing a lot, but there are only a few weapons enthusiasts, who will be able to tell, if it's 100% correct, or, if it's only 95% correct. It's not that you are describing something completely out of way. Just think of it. We will use neutrino detection for the UFOs! And this is supposed to be the same tech level as the autocannon.
Keep smiling while dying

Of course I have gone mad with power! It would be completely ridiculous to go mad without power!
And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#82 fux0r666

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:35 AM

I just want to make sure that you know that we aren't talking about 40mm grenades. We're talking about 25mm grenades.

http://www.defensere...article&sid=730

The XM25 precisely delivers air-bursting munitions in all conditions, including MOUT and complex terrain. It is five times more lethal at the M203 maximum range and continues to provide lethality well beyond the M203's maximum ability. The system is designed for optimum performance at 300 meters but will perform to 500 meters and beyond.

It includes five different types of ammunition:

- Thermobaric

- Flechette

- Training

- High Explosive Air Bursting

- Non-Lethal"


Thermobaric is another option, as the xm25 has no straight HE round... conceivably because a 25mm HE grenade would be useless.

Edited by fux0r666, 16 March 2006 - 01:36 AM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#83 fux0r666

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:49 PM

I forgot to add that the M381 and M551 40mm point-detonating HE grenades contain a notched wire for fragmentation. These were the most common rounds for the m203 circa 1980. I think they've moved towards the M433 HEDP now.

At any rate, if you are going to have an HE grenade in the 20-25mm calibre, it is my opinion that you should include a blurb about it having notched wire for fragmentation effects. My view is based on:

a) the fact that you already have a blurb about some mechanism for fragmentation effects, but that mechanism was outmoded shortly after world war 2

B) I would hazard to say that all modern antipersonel grenades use this fragmentation method

c) Aesthetically, you can vividly describe the cloud of jagged cubes perforating the targets in a 5m area, causing area-wide tissue destruction and disfigurement

Stop it! Both of you! This is after all a game! It's nice to have a good background, but it's not worth spending more then three days discussing if it will be HEPD or plain HE. This is in the Future after all. I don't care what exactly you will use, but just write something feasible. Maybe they invented a new plastic explosive which is much more efficient and develops more "bang-per-gram"™ so that the original design will work again.
Don't get me wrong, I love to get in details, and I love it if people are discussing a lot, but there are only a few weapons enthusiasts, who will be able to tell, if it's 100% correct, or, if it's only 95% correct. It's not that you are describing something completely out of way. Just think of it. We will use neutrino detection for the UFOs! And this is supposed to be the same tech level as the autocannon.


We're having what is essentially a discussion about the aesthetics of the text. Some details are incorrect, and I think that it would be more realistic and vivid to include this notched wire text. There has been much more heated discussions here about much more minor details. I think that this discussion was one worth having.

Also, it's not a heated discussion, I'm just conveying what I know about the subject. Research is important. I think that what this project, namely the awd and ctd departments could use is MORE research, not less. If I'm doing nothing but inspiring FullAuto to do some research, I would consider that valuable.

Moreover, the neutrino detection system (whose continued existence as a project asset has been contested), is part of a high-tech detection array. We are talking about expendable, non guided, anti-personel ordinance. Essentially, we're talking about a fat, slow bullet. These things aren't analogous.

Edited by fux0r666, 16 March 2006 - 02:03 PM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#84 Mad

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 02:26 PM

We're having what is essentially a discussion about the aesthetics of the text.  Some details are incorrect, and I think that it would be more realistic and vivid to include this notched wire text.  There has been much more heated discussions here about much more minor details.  I think that this discussion was one worth having.

Also, it's not a heated discussion, I'm just conveying what I know about the subject.  Research is important.  I think that what this project, namely the awd and ctd departments could use is MORE research, not less.  If I'm doing nothing but inspiring FullAuto to do some research, I would consider that valuable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say it was a heated discussion. It is just, that I don't see a reason to overcomplicate this topic. You are both investing a tremendous amount of time, which I think could be used wit greater benefit somewhere else. Now this is your decision, I won't tell you what to do in this case, but I seriously think, there are more pressing tasks to accomplish.

Moreover, the neutrino detection system (whose continued existence as a project asset has been contested), is part of a high-tech detection array.  We are talking about expendable, non guided, anti-personel ordinance.  Essentially, we're talking about a fat, slow bullet.  These things aren't analogous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think you got my point here. What I was trying to say, is, that we are using explainable, yes, but very difficult explainable, technology in several parts of the game. Nearly all weapon technologies use more then just enhanced versions of todays technology. There is always a great detail of futuristic stuff, the author invents when writing his (or some day maybe we could have a "hers" :) ) CT. The only thing he has to care about is explaining this new technology in a plausible way. For example, I really don't see a problem, to just produce a simple non fragmenting HE projectile with 20mm diameter. I agree; todays explosives don't deliver enough power for such an appliance, but there is no disgrace in "inventing" a more powerful explosive which would allow just such a projectile. This is something noone will worry about. After all this will take place in the future.
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#85 FullAuto

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 05:45 PM

a) the fact that you already have a blurb about some mechanism for fragmentation effects, but that mechanism was outmoded shortly after world war 2

I would hazard to say that all modern antipersonel grenades use this fragmentation method

c) Aesthetically, you can vividly describe the cloud of jagged cubes perforating the targets in a 5m area, causing area-wide tissue destruction and disfigurement


A) Nope. There were rounds still in use during Vietnam and after that didn't utilise notched wire, and these still had a 5 metre effective radius. They relied on the casing for fragmentation, and killed people just fine.

B) We're not discussing antipersonnel grenades, we're discussing a 15mm round.

C) We can vividly describe whatever the heck we like. I bet after a few iterations we could make a jack in the box sound like the deadliest killing machine the world has ever known. Whether we use notched wire or not, the principle is the same. The round goes off and hot bits of metal blast through flesh.

If we're going with an explosive powerful enough to create a 2/3m radius from a 15mm casing, we don't need notched wire, nor do we need metal casing, really. We could have a lovely light casing made out of whatever the heck we like, relying purely on the HE, which would fit in nicely with the slightly futuristic setting of the game. Divorcing it almost entirely from modern weapons and unproven 20/25mm systems.

I agree; todays explosives don't deliver enough power for such an appliance, but there is no disgrace in "inventing" a more powerful explosive which would allow just such a projectile. This is something noone will worry about. After all this will take place in the future.


Could of sworn I already said that. ;) I wonder if Astyanax has seen the latest version of this yet.

Edited by FullAuto, 16 March 2006 - 05:49 PM.

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#86 fux0r666

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Posted 17 March 2006 - 01:15 AM

It's 15mm now? Ugh. That's barely greater than .50 cal. Now you're just telling stories out of school.

Around the end of the war, I think, they did trials on the pinecone grenades and such and found that the notches did nothing to gaurantee an even fragmentation pattern. I don't know what you think you know, but it's certainly not what I've read.

Edited by fux0r666, 17 March 2006 - 01:18 AM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#87 tzuchan

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Posted 17 March 2006 - 11:05 AM

Chill people, time out.
Both of you have very valid concerns. Fux is right in that most frag type grenades do not use pineapple style shells anymore, and FullAuto is correct in the sense that a HEAP round of the proposed size, even if you bump it up to 25 mm(Which is realistic, considering the XM25), you won't have much room for notched wires.

I think the major problem is that both of you may be a little to hung up on the idea of notched wires vs weakened shells and HE vs HEAPers.

I admit that I have to side with Fux on the HE vs HEAPers argument. Fragmentation adds alot of bang for a little more buck. Yes, you have a weaker overpressure effect, and it's a whole less visually stimulating than the nice HE explosions that we see so often in movies but the frags are the real man killers. Yes, aliens wear armor/have thick hides/etc, but that doesn't change the fact that frags would more likely wound them as opposed to knock them silly for a bit(Why they use HE aside from visual? If they actually used frags, the heros would be mince meat IMHO).

As for FullAuto's concern about size, that's what Frags are all about in the first place. Yes, you sacrifice abit of the explosive matrix for steel pellets packed tightly around the matrix, but then, you won''t want a thick shell then! A nice light easily destroy casing is what you want so all that lovely pellets can fly all over the place, making hash out of enemy targets.

But at the end of the day, I don't care about any of this, I just want to play Xenocide. I want to have my strongest soldier pull out the AC-110 and lay down some suppressive fire with the explosive ammo. I don't care whether it's a frag round or a pure HE round, I just want a nice visually satisfying explosion. And if the CT about the ammo I'm using fits in with the real world, all the more better!

HEAPears is realistic, HE looks nice. But since this is a game, we can say it's a HEAPears and show a nice HE style explosion. Worst comes to worst and people complain about it not being realistic, we can always say that its a visual guide for the destructive radius projected by the frag grenade. An explosion is easier to gauge than tiny barely visible projectiles anyway.
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#88 Astyanax

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 11:03 AM

Most looks pretty good- just a few comments here and there. As for the discussion between Fux and FullAuto, I was sort of waiting for them to come to some conclusion since I haven't the slightest idea what was actually being discussed. To be honest, I still don't really know if it has been resolved, so the text still may need to be tweaked.

Changes in green

REPEATER CANNON - RC-110
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/Repeater Cannon

First appearing as part of several modular weapon concepts at the beginning of the 21st century, the design and prototypes of the Repeater Cannon were then shelved because of weight and size considerations.  When technology caught up with the designer's ambition, several were quickly built, tested in combat through several small classified engagements and found eminently suitable for an anti-extraterrestrial role.

Maybe: "When technology had advanced far enough to realize the designer's ambition..."?

Also, is the repeater cannon available at the beginning of the game? If so, the repeater cannon was probably designed for roles other than anti-extraterrestrial warfare and later co-opted into that role.

The versatile Repeater Cannon is a very versatile weapon, composed almost entirely out of strong, high-density polymer and is capable of firing 15mm caliber High Explosive (HE), Armor Piercing (AP), or Incendiary (I) ammunition at a high rate of fire (ROF). Unfortunately, the RC-110 is extremely heavy and should only be carried by the strongest of soldiers. The AP rounds are the standard ammunition, to be used, typically in most circumstances. HE rounds should not be used in confined spaces or in close proximity to the target. Incendiary rounds are best utilised to drive enemies from cover.

Perhaps: "Unfortunately, the RC-110 is still extremely heavy, and carrying one for the duration of a mission is will fatigue all but the strongest of soldiers"? (May be too wordy.)

I also think the description of HE rounds should include something phrased in the positive, instead of just "HE rounds should not be used when so-and-so..." Maybe: "HE rounds generate small, area of effect blasts that are particularly effective against clustered unarmored targets. The user of the repeater cannon is not immune to the explosive radius, so HE rounds should not be used in confined spaces or in close proximity to the target." (It's kind of wordy.)

The AR-110 Repeater Cannon is a fully automatic man-portable assault/support weapon. It uses magazines of 14 rounds to minimize weight as much as possible. Unfortunately, though the magazines are still incredibly heavy compared to standard 5.56mm rifle magazines. Despite being primarily made of high-density polymer, the RC-110 is extremely heavy, yet its high ROF, combined with its reasonable accuracy and variety of ammunition make it a powerful weapon.

Removed "unfortunately" because it was used in the last paragraph.

Maybe instead of "Despite being primarily..." (I moved the"high-density polymer" part to paragraph 2): "Despite the considerable weight of the RC-110, its high ROF, reasonable accuracy, and variety of ammunition make it a powerful weapon able to complement most squads' needs." I'm trying to replace some instances of "extreme" with other adjectives, too.

Armor Piercing (AP): These rounds utilise a fin-stabilised discarding sabot tungsten alloy dart, designed to provide significant penetration (60mm of rolled homogenous steel armour at 500m).

High Explosive (HE): Essentially small fragmentation grenades.  They detonate upon impact, the casing of the round transforming into shrapnel, resulting in an effective explosive radius of 2 metres.

Incendiary (I): Better known as white phosphorous (WP, or Willie Pete), this is another impact-detonated round, consisting consists of a thick layer of WP around a small central explosive charge.  Upon striking the target, the charge explodes, spraying white-hot WP in a 3 meter radius and burning until completely consumed or deprived of oxygen.

"fin-stabilised discarding sabot tungsten alloy dart": That's an awful lot of adjectives- does it need commas? If somebody says it's correct, I'll take their word for it.

I agree with Mad: delete the Willie Pete part.

I added "white-hot" to help readers visualize what's going on, but that depends on what the AWD decides to do... if incediary blasts are yellow like in X-Com 1, then we should probably change it to something like "blistering," "searing," or "incandescent."

"When I first came out of boot, Sarge gave me the best advice I've ever heard. He said: ‘Son, don't ever hit on a girl who carries a one-ten. It'd take less effort to rip off both your arms than it takes to lift one of those.’ "
–Corporal Hermann Magstar


Well, that's my take on the text. It's not as colorful as some of my previous contributions, but it might still be plenty eye-blinding. :)

Edited by Astyanax, 18 March 2006 - 11:16 AM.

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#89 Blehm 98

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 12:48 AM

REPEATER CANNON - RC-110
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/Repeater Cannon

First appearing as part of several modular weapon concepts at the beginning of the 21st century, the design and prototypes of the Repeater Cannon were then shelved because of due to weight and size considerations. When technology caught up with the designer's ambition, several prototypes were quickly built, tested, introduced into combat in combat through several small classified engagements and found considered eminently suitable for an anti-extraterrestrial role X-Corps.

The AR-110 Repeater Cannon is an automatic man-portable assault/support weapon, designed for maximum firepower and portability. The magazines have 14 rounds of 20mm of ammunition, in order to minimize weight yet still have enough ammunition to allow the weapon to function for some time without reload. It is made of high density polymer, also designed to reduce weight, yet it is still extremely heavy, and only the strongest X-Corps personel should be assigned to carry the AR-110.

I split these two paragraphs as well…

Of the three ammunition types, the AP rounds are standard ammunition, and are to be used in most circumstances. The HE rounds are of course explosive and unsuitable for close quarters or engagement of nearby enemies, but very effective against groups of enemies and cover, the HE rounds are immensely effective. The Incendiary rounds are filled with Thermate, which upon detonation will create an immensely hot fire, causing everything within 3 meters to spontaneously combust. They are best suited to blocking off possible escape or flanking corridors, and for flushing enemies out of enclosed areas, as not only will the fire spread, forcing the enemies to move, but suffocating fumes and smoke will make it impossible to hold position.

I tried, could still do with some work, dealt with the IC problem too :)
I also fused the two paragraphs, but it could do with some work


so yeah, it could still do with some work, but i have to say i think it looks alright
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#90 Blehm 98

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 10:02 PM

alright lets see, the MK-19 weighs 33 KG unloaded, and a 16 round magazine would be about 10 kilograms, so yeah... I'm not sure how to put that in, but i could probably fit it into the CT next revision
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#91 Zombie

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 11:15 PM

Ok, my revisions for the first two paragraphs. Strikethroughs for deletions and blue for additions.

REPEATER CANNON - RC-110
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/Repeater Cannon

First appearing as part of several modular weapon concepts at the beginning of the 21st century, the design and prototypes of the Repeater Cannon were then shelved because of due to weight and size considerations. When technology finally caught up with the designer's ambition, several prototypes were quickly built, tested and introduced into combat in combat through several numerous small classified engagements and found considered to be eminently suitable for an anti-extraterrestrial role in X-Corps.

The AR-110 Repeater Cannon is an automatic, man-portable assault/support weapon designed for maximum firepower and portability. The magazines have Each magazine holds 14 rounds of 20mm of ammunition in order to minimize weight, yet still and have enough ammunition to allows the weapon to function for some time without reload. It The casing is made of constructed using a high density polymer also designed which is also intended to reduce weight. Unfortunately it is still remains extremely heavy due to manufacturing difficulties, and so only the strongest X-Corps personnel should be assigned to carry the AR-110.

Of the three ammunition types, the AP rounds are standard ammunition, and are to be used in most circumstances. The HE rounds are of course explosive and unsuitable for close quarters or engagement of nearby enemies, but very effective against groups of enemies and cover, the HE rounds are immensely effective. The Incendiary rounds are filled with Thermate, which upon detonation will create an immensely hot fire, causing everything within 3 meters to spontaneously combust. They are best suited to blocking off possible escape or flanking corridors, and for flushing enemies out of enclosed areas, as not only will the fire spread, forcing the enemies to move, but suffocating fumes and smoke will make it impossible to hold position.

The third paragraph needs some work to eliminate overuse of the words "effective" and "immensely". Also, I really question the use of Thermate in this instance. True, it can function underwater which is a handy feature. However, it is not true to the physics of the original game. In X-COM, fire could not destroy weapons, ammunition, most buildings or meal floors. Thermate would be capable of such feats. Also, Thermate has a small area of effect, while white phosphorous is basically unlimited. It works fine for this text, as the application is small, but larger areas would require WP. That's why I suggest using WP as the only incendiary method for PX. This is pending a reply from a Xeno senior on the subject, however. :wink1:

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Edited by Zombie, 16 June 2006 - 11:17 PM.

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#92 Blehm 98

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 11:36 PM

yeah, but its only like 2 or 3 meters, and WP i think is further than that. I personally believe thermate would be best suited to the task, although the capabilities of the IC ammunition would need to be altered (as in destroying everything, yes)

however, white phosphorus is primarily just shards of stuff that burn, so it wouldn't be as effective as the IC in xcom. the Xcom IC in fact reminded me of Napalm, but thats unbelievable, but since thermate burns so hot it would cause a fast spreading fire
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#93 Mad

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 06:53 AM

Spreading fire is a bad idea, because we will have ice-maps too, and well, as you know, ice burns pretty bad.
But I have to admitt I have no idea what thermite really is (and I lack the time to check it right now) so, well, I would recommend the usage of WP or a fictional substance.

Edited by Mad, 17 June 2006 - 06:53 AM.

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#94 Blehm 98

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 10:34 AM

1) Of course, spreading fire is V1+ at least, if it gets implemented, so it i guess wouldn't be version one

2)Thermite is a mixture of a iron oxide and aluminum (usually) that when melted creates an immensely hot reaction. The problem is, Thermate (a mixture of thermite and some other things to make it better suited for military purposes) only covers like an area within 1 meter of the explosion, although its definitely hot enough to sponateously ignite anything within 2 or 3 meters that is flammable.

3) Those guys who came up with Xcom IC system... dunno what they were thinking, there is nothing in the world that can mimic the effect :(

ah well, someone more educated on pyrotechnics should say something now
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#95 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 12:08 PM

3) Those guys who came up with Xcom IC system... dunno what they were thinking, there is nothing in the world that can mimic the effect :(

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They were most likely thinking in the engine's capability, gameplay and other factors that did not allow them to make everything super-realistic.

#96 Moriarty

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 12:10 PM

as far as I recall, fire could spread in XCom, so why not?
I agree that we should probably use a fictional substance, because incendiary ammo as it was in XCom doesn't really exist.

the "everything within a certain radius spontaneously combusts" thing sounds a little bit too hot for me... something _that_ hot would do more damage. in XCom, fire could stick to people, so why not use some kind of incendiary gel, kind of like napalm, only more advanced? perhaps something that doesn't use environment oxygen, but brings its own oxidant. otherwise we'll run into trouble explaining why it works on mars :)
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#97 Mad

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 01:49 PM

as far as I recall, fire could spread in XCom, so why not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough: Fire cpreading is a good thing. And it will be in v1 for sure. But, what I meant was: If working with thermite and it's limited radius explaining the extended radius by instantly spreading fire is a bad idea due to the limited burning possibilities of ice.
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#98 Blehm 98

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 03:56 PM

oooh, i get it now
problem is, White Phosphorous wouldn't work to well in ice or snow either. It would melt a hole down, then the water would suffocate it. So something that has properties of napalm while being self powered...

what comes to mind is perhaps a gel with Potassium Chlorate. That burns at around 1100 degrees Celsius i believe, and it spontaneously combusts with a lot of things (maybe even martian soil, as there is iron and oxygen in it), and it has an internal oxygen source as well.
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#99 kafros

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 11:56 PM

ah well, someone more educated on pyrotechnics should say something now

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I definitely ain't educated (actually, I don't have the slightest of ideas about this stuff :P), but I have a nice chemistry ebook: "Military explosives"

Chapter 3 divides the energetic materials field into three categories: explosives, propellants, and pyrotechnics.

So, question one: What will the Repeater use?

Edit: I did an Internet research, and it seems that the commonly used IC rounds contain Chlorine trifluoride, or a mixture of White phosphorus, thermite and Napalm... Just my 2 cents

Edited by kafros, 18 June 2006 - 01:27 AM.


#100 Blehm 98

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 01:45 AM

hmmmm
that mixture you posted and the Potassium Chlorate gel stuff i posted are probably the most likely
the problem is that white phosphorous and napalm need oxygen to burn still...
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