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CTD - Alien Infiltration


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#1 Sinscale17

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 01:03 AM

Alien mission details.
First draught:

Of all the missions carried out by the alien forces on Earth, few, if any match [Alien Infiltration] missions in terms of sheer cunning, or in their immense danger to the survival of the X-Corps project.

Though of little direct threat to X-Corps' bases or personnel, [Alien Infiltration] missions seek to actively subvert friendly governments out of any alliance with X-Corps, and as such, to cut out the very foundation supporting the X-Corps project.

Over the course of several weeks, UFOs of varying sizes can be seen over the targetted country in a frenzy of activity as covert alien operatives investigate the network of the local government, preparing to insert into the country a number of genetically altered humans - unfortunate individuals artificially grown from fetuses extracted from their mothers during grisly alien abductions, their minds enslaved by alien devices implanted directly into their cortex.

Once investigation is complete, and the groundwork for insertion prepared, larger craft will land in the country to offload their human payload, which will swiftly follow out pre-programmed objectives to seek out and establish contact with the national government, bearing examples of advanced alien technology that they will then use to barter for both an alliance, and the country's withdrawal from the X-Corps funding project, the lifeblood of our continuing campaign against the alien forces.

Clearly it is vital that all such attempts to subvert governments against X-Corps be swiftly and irrevocably prevented by whatever means necessary, and the discovery of large numbers of UFOs congregating on any one area should be investigated by X-Corps operatives at the nearest opportunity, to cut such attempts off in the exploratory stage before they can escalate further.

"Damnit Jones, you shot another civvie!"
"But Serge, this one was carrying a suitcase of Xenium! Think we should report this?"



Anyone with ideas, suggestions, critique et al, feel free to comment.
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#2 dipstick

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 02:47 PM

Well, needs to be a tad longer, but its ok thus far. Maybe go into a bit more detail about what the threat is, emphasise it a bit more etc etc. But not bad... =b
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#3 Astyanax

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:07 PM

I agree with dipstick- we (I?) have a tendency to be quite verbose, so a little more text to flesh out the entry might be good! Maybe describe which races are perpetrating the infiltration (I'm not entirely certain myself, but it's not the "brainless" minions behind [alien terror missions])? Hm, I guess you could also expand each of the steps involved in [alien infiltration]: probing the government (observation, the study of language, customs, and political systems, key people in power), abduction and implantation/genetic modification/reprogramming, subversion/assassination of political authorities.

But your current text reads very well. I'm looking forward to reading the next draft, Sinscale17. ^_^

Edit- spelling.

Edited by Astyanax, 14 February 2005 - 10:57 AM.

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#4 mikker

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 08:45 AM

A mindcontrolled clone of the regent could prove a little more interesting, involving alien cloning (we would need to have alien infiltration a pre-requirement for alien breeding then).

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 05:16 PM

I don't think having clones is such a good idea, why the Aliens don't use those clones as troopers then?

#6 mikker

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 05:26 PM

I don't think having clones is such a good idea, why the Aliens don't use those clones as troopers then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Because they'd rather use the cloning machines for aliens. Making thousands of humans arn't quite what they like...

Besides, in their eyes, human are weak. The only good thing about human is their brain, and if they are mind controlled, then.... :OhBrother:

Edited by mikker, 14 February 2005 - 05:27 PM.

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 05:33 PM

I don't think having clones is such a good idea, why the Aliens don't use those clones as troopers then?

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Because they'd rather use the cloning machines for aliens. Making thousands of humans arn't quite what they like...

Besides, in their eyes, human are weak. The only good thing about human is their brain, and if they are mind controlled, then.... :OhBrother:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, according to Alien Goal, they pretty much want us because we're stronger.

edit, how about they use abducted humans (psi controlled permanently by implanting some sort of Psionic devices in their brains) to make contact with the governments? That would get the nasty clone issue out of the way :)

Edited by Azrael, 14 February 2005 - 05:35 PM.


#8 mikker

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 05:37 PM

indeed. And maybe the psi controlled can psi controll itself? :hmmm:

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#9 Sinscale17

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 02:29 AM

Actually, I was basing that part on Alien Abduction missions, where "embryos were implanted and removed", giving that entire activity a little less "randomness" when they actually use them for something.

I'm up to my neck in work at the moment, but I should have a suitably "padded" result within a few days. Could someone give me a general word count to aim for?
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#10 tzuchan

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 03:00 AM

There's no actual wordcount target to aim for... However, I think the minimum that we would consider reasonable would be at least one page long, and must have the there's nothing more to add to it feel, I guess... Albeit, if you get to roughly the same length as my powersuit CT, then some people may start yapping about it being too long...

Try to flesh it out abit, about what kind of techs the aliens may offer, how they go about it...
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Posted 15 February 2005 - 08:23 AM

Length? As long as I want!! Type type type! :whip:
Seriously, the length goes about when we have no more comments, this text will be active until we exhaust our ideas and give the green light for completed :)

#12 Sinscale17

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Posted 17 February 2005 - 06:15 AM

Second Draught

Of all the missions carried out by the alien forces on Earth, few, if any match [Alien Infiltration] missions in terms of sheer cunning, or in their immense danger to the survival of the X-Corps project.

Though of little direct threat to X-Corps' bases or personnel, [Alien Infiltration] missions seek to actively subvert friendly governments away from their alliance with X-Corps, and as such, to cut out the very foundation supporting the X-Corps project.

Over the course of several weeks, UFOs of varying sizes can be seen over the targeted country in a frenzy of activity as covert alien operatives investigate the network of the local government, seeking out centres of authority, national leaders and the executive infrastructure by the kidnapping and subsequent interrogation local civilians, thoroughly researching what seems to be a somewhat foreign concept within the alien’s strictly controlled social hierarchy.
The reason for this dedicated research is far from academic however; all information discovered is used purely as groundwork in preparation to insert into the country a number of genetically altered humans - unfortunate individuals artificially grown from foetuses extracted from their mothers during grisly alien abductions, their minds enslaved by alien devices implanted directly into their cortex after their birth from a cold artificial womb somewhere on the aliens’ homeworld.

Once investigation is complete, and the groundwork for insertion prepared, larger craft will land in the country to offload their human payload, which will swiftly follow out their pre-programmed objectives, seeking out and establishing contact with the highest branches of the national government, bearing examples of advanced alien technology such advanced generators, high powered flight engines and powerful military weapons that they will then use to barter for both an alliance, and the country's withdrawal from the X-Corps funding project, the lifeblood of our continuing campaign against the alien forces.
As all of these technologies are dependent on Xenium, on which a complete monopoly is held by the extraterrestrial invaders, once allied, governments are unlikely to renege on such agreements, as they would lose all the benefits that caused them to turn their backs on X-Corps in the first place.

Clearly it is vital that all such attempts to subvert governments against X-Corps be swiftly and irrevocably prevented by whatever means necessary, as without funding and open access throughout international airspace, X-Corps cannot function, and the alien victory shall be inevitable.
Therefore, the discovery of large numbers of UFOs congregating on any one area should be investigated by X-Corps operatives as a top priority, to cut such attempts off in the exploratory stage, and prevent vital initial reconnaissance data from reaching the aliens.
Hopefully with swift action against the smaller vessels, alien activity can be prevented from escalating further, before they have accumulated enough data to dispatch larger vessels.

"Damnit Jones, you shot another civvie!"
"But Serge, this one was carrying a suitcase of Xenium! Think we should report this?"


A happy medium between the shorter and longer technical descriptions of alien mission CTDs I've checked.
Unless anyone has completely uncovered information, then it's impossible to get a much longer entry without redundant information, repetition, and a generally unprofessional feel emerging within the report.

As per other ideas:
Cloning, if you'd check the alien breeding entry, is an awkward affair to set up and continue. You'd need one clone per leader, and only a single clone at that. This would not be efficient, and would not occur if you were to hold to Gray hive principles. If you're going to clone something, clone lots of that something.

Cloned human soldiers: Humans, on the whole, aren't that great. Cloaks have superior mental faculties to them, mutons simply physically outclass them. They need special tools to even attain basic psi-cognisance, and they're appallingly fragile when it comes to hostile environments or a few shots from a heavy plasma. If they want humans for something, it's probably to transplant their brains into mutons or something, not as soldiers, where they're usually appallingly wimpy.

Pre-requisite Alien Breeding: You can't choose to research alien mission types last I knew, you just discovered them from interrogating aliens, who'd fill you in on their particular area, where you could make sense of them or not. :p
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Posted 17 February 2005 - 11:33 AM

Pre-requisite Alien Breeding: You can't choose to research alien mission types last I knew, you just discovered them from interrogating aliens, who'd fill you in on their particular area, where you could make sense of them or not. :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*sighs* Please read the tech tree for requisites, it doesn't really make much sense to have Alien Breeding as requisite anyway.

#14 Astyanax

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Posted 17 February 2005 - 12:23 PM

Red text indicates additions, orange text indicates deletions, and blue text indicates comments or suggestions.

Added [brackets] and capitalizations of the word "Alien" are not denoted. Also, it has been decided that American spellings will be used, so I'll just mark them in red.

Don't get intimidated by the colors- it just looks worse than it really is.

Of all the missions carried out by the Alien forces on Earth, few, if any, match [Alien Infiltration] missions in terms of sheer cunning, or in their immense danger to the survival of the X-Corps project. The word "insidious" might work well in this paragraph.

Though of little direct threat to X-Corps' bases or personnel, [Alien Infiltration] missions seek to actively subvert friendly governments away from their alliance with X-Corps, and as such, to cut cutting out the very foundation supporting beneath? the X-Corps project.

Over the course of several weeks, UFOs of varying sizes can be seen over in the skies above? the targeted country in a frenzy of activity as covert Alien operatives investigate the network of the local government, seeking out information pertaining to centers of authority, national leaders, and the executive infrastructure by through the kidnapping and subsequent interrogation local civilians, thoroughly researching and thorough research into what seems to be a somewhat foreign concept within the Alien’s strictly controlled social hierarchy.

In the previous paragraph, it sounded odd (to me) that the Aliens were seeking authority figures (EDIT- haha, the Aliens were asking, "who's our daddy"? :) ) by kidnapping and interrogating civilians, so I altered it to say the Aliens were seeking information about authority figures through said kidnapping and interrogating.

The reason for motives/motivation behind? this dedicated research is far from academic, however; all the information discovered acquired? is used purely as groundwork in preparation to insert into the country a number of genetically-altered humans to pave the groundwork for the insertion of genetically-altered human agents?- unfortunate individuals artificially grown from fetuses cruelly? extracted from their mothers during grisly [Alien Abductions], their minds enslaved by Alien devices implanted directly into their cortex after their birth from a cold artificial womb somewhere on the Aliens’ homeworld Thanatos isn't the Aliens' homeworld- see Azrael's "Alien Goal" and tzuchan's backstory CTs for reference.  Suggest: "...their minds enslaved from birth by Alien cerebral implants and an endless stream of Alien propaganda and misinformation".

Once sufficient? investigation is complete, has been completed and the groundwork for insertion prepared, larger craft will land in descend upon? the country to offload install, introduce, release? their human payload: agents who , which will swiftly follow out carry out, accomplish, achieve, realize? their pre-programmed objectives, seeking out and establishing contact with the highest branches of the national government, bearing examples of such advanced Alien technology such technologies as advanced generators, high-powered flight engines and powerful military weapons that they will then use to barter for bargaining chips for both an alliance, and the country's withdrawal from the X-Corps funding project, the lifeblood of our continuing campaign against the Alien forces. Although the speaker is presumably an X-Corps agent, the previous paragraph talks very much about the Aliens.  The latter half of the last sentence is a very abrupt transition (to me) between the "Aliens' actions" and "our funding".  Suggest: "...funding project, slowly strangling us through fiscal reduction."

As all of these Since the technologies proffered by Alien agents are powered solely by dependent on Xenium, on which a complete monopoly is held by the extraterrestrial invaders a substance of which the extraterrestrial invaders hold a virtual monopoly of, the Aliens cleverly create a captive market: once allied, traitorous? governments are unlikely to renege on such agreements, because the loss of their Xenium supplier as they would mean the loss of lose all the benefits that caused them to turn their backs on X-Corps in the first place. I like this reasoning!

Clearly, it is vitally important to prevent that all such attempts to subvert the subversion of governments against X-Corps be swiftly and irrevocably prevented by whatever any? means necessary, as for without funding and open access throughout international airspace, the X-Corps cannot adequately, efficiently, effectively? function, and the Alien victory shall be inevitable all but assured?.

Therefore, the discovery of large numbers of UFOs congregating on any one area should be investigated and thwarted? by X-Corps operatives as a top priority, in order to cut avert, hamper, foil, halt? such attempts off in their exploratory stages, and intercept prevent vital initial reconnaissance data from reaching the Aliens before it reaches the Alien mastermind.

Hopefully with swift action against the smaller vessels, [Alien Infiltration] missions activity can be prevented from escalating further, suppressed, precluded, forestalled? before they have accumulated enough data to dispatch larger vessels.

"Damnit Dammit Jones, you shot another civvie!"
"But Serge, this one was carrying a suitcase of Xenium! Think we should report this?"


What can I say? I like this CT! :)

Edited by Astyanax, 17 February 2005 - 05:43 PM.

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#15 Sinscale17

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Posted 17 February 2005 - 12:24 PM

Actually, Alien Infiltration isn't covered in your V1 tech thread, or any of the attached files. Unless the search feature on my browser is dead, and I've lost the ability to read links.
On the plus side, I was already saying that alien breeding pre-req wasn't viable where you quoted, so we're not actually disagreeing on anything. :P


Edit: Blast! Overposted. Curse my slow typing ways! *Gets to reading tweaks.*

Edited by Sinscale17, 17 February 2005 - 12:28 PM.

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#16 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 17 February 2005 - 01:08 PM

Actually, Alien Infiltration isn't covered in your V1 tech thread, or any of the attached files. Unless the search feature on my browser is dead, and I've lost the ability to read links.
On the plus side, I was already saying that alien breeding pre-req wasn't viable where you quoted, so we're not actually disagreeing on anything. :P


Edit: Blast! Overposted. Curse my slow typing ways! *Gets to reading tweaks.*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It isn't!?!?!?!, time to update it then.
As a prerequisite it's the same as the other missions; to have the Tachyon Emissions Detector and to detect a craft on an infiltration mission. :)

#17 Sinscale17

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 10:25 AM

Third Draught:

Of all the missions carried out by the Alien forces on Earth, few, if any, match [Alien Infiltration] missions in terms of their insidious natures, or in their immense danger to the survival of the X-Corps project.

Though of little direct threat to X-Corps' bases or personnel, [Alien Infiltration] missions seek to actively subvert friendly governments from their alliance with X-Corps, and as such, cutting out the very foundation supporting the X-Corps project.

Over the course of several weeks, UFOs of varying sizes can be seen in the skies over the targeted country in a frenzy of activity, as covert Alien operatives investigate the network of the local government, seeking out information pertaining to centres of authority, national leaders, and the executive infrastructure through the kidnapping and subsequent interrogation of local civilians; and thorough research into what seems to be a somewhat foreign concept within the Alien’s strictly controlled social hierarchy.

The motivation behind this dedicated research is far from academic however; as all information discovered is used to pave the way for the insertion of genetically-altered humans, unfortunate individuals artificially grown from foetuses surgically extracted from their mothers during grisly [Alien Abductions], their minds enslaved by Alien devices implanted directly into their cortex after their birth from a cold artificial womb somewhere on the Alien’s centre of operations.

Once sufficient investigation has been carried out, and the groundwork for insertion prepared, larger craft descend upon the country to release their human payload; agents who will swiftly carry out their pre-programmed objectives, seeking out and establishing contact with the highest branches of the national government, bearing such advanced Alien technologies as advanced generators, high-powered flight engines and powerful military weapons as bargaining chips for both an alliance, and the country's withdrawal from the X-Corps funding project, severing the financial ties upon which X-Corps depends.

Since the technologies proffered by Alien agents are powered solely by Xenium, a substance of which the extraterrestrial invaders hold a complete monopoly of, the Aliens cleverly create a captive market; and once the pact is made, corrupted governments are unlikely to renege on such agreements, because the loss of their Xenium supplier would mean the loss of all the benefits that caused them to turn their backs on X-Corps in the first place.

Clearly, it is vitally important to prevent the subversion of governments against X-Corps by any means necessary, for without funding and open access throughout international airspace, the X-Corps cannot function, and the Alien victory shall be all but assured.

Therefore, the discovery of large numbers of UFOs congregating on any one area should be investigated by X-Corps operatives as a top priority, in order to thwart such attempts off in their exploratory stages, and intercept vital initial reconnaissance data before it reaches the Alien mastermind.

Hopefully with swift action against the smaller vessels, [Alien Infiltration] missions can be suppressed before they have accumulated enough data to dispatch larger vessels.

"Dammit Jones, you shot another civvie!"
"But Serge, this one was carrying a suitcase of Xenium! Think we should report this?"


----

Proof suggestion notes-

‘Word insidious might be good here’

Yeah, I thought that first time, but couldn’t think how to put it in there.

‘…and as such, cutting out the very foundations supporting (beneath) the X-Corps project.’

I preferred “supporting” to “beneath” as wording goes. Beneath here is a tad redundant unless you’re talking about “cutting them out from beneath” something.

‘In the previous paragraph, it sounded odd (to me) that the Aliens were seeking authority figures (EDIT- haha, the Aliens were asking, "who's our daddy"? ) by kidnapping and interrogating civilians, so I altered it to say the Aliens were seeking information about authority figures through said kidnapping and interrogating.’

That’s crazy talk. The aliens were saying “take me to your leader”. :P

‘this dedicated research is far from academic, however; the information discovered’

Grammatically speaking, the comma after academic is incorrect, as is -I feel- “the” after the semi-colon. Likewise, later in the sentence, new information more correctly “discovered”, than acquired; hence my retaining the original wording.

‘Thanatos isn't the Aliens' homeworld- see Azrael's "Alien Goal" and Tzuchan's backstory CTs for reference. Suggest: "...their minds enslaved from birth by Alien cerebral implants and an endless stream of Alien propaganda and misinformation".’

I had actually intended the homeworld as an assumption of ignorance on that matter, but you’re probably right in that it needed changing, however, with the alien forces consisting of 90% enslaved minds, the other 10% something like Cloaks, brain and mindless war-machines, the concept of “propaganda” seems as much of a foreign idea as the concept of “government”, hence their merely being utterly mind-controlled.

‘artificially grown from foetuses cruelly extracted from their mothers’

Later in the sentence, the process is described as grisly; I don’t feel the need to enforce the ickyness aspect any further than that. And ‘sides, humans extract foetuses all the time

‘Xenium, a substance of which the extraterrestrial invaders hold a virtual monopoly of, the Aliens cleverly create a captive market’

I intentionally stated complete, because X-Corps does not hold any true control over Xenium supplies. Fifty units of Xenium per ship, limitless ships, an endless number of Xenium powered ammunition clips, and Light knows what else. The aliens have Xenium to burn. X-Corps can safely be considered to hold less than 0.01% of any Xenium supply within the solar system, and even this, they are reliant upon Alien encounters to maintain; the aliens are to humanity as Microsoft is to Apple.


‘X-Corps cannot “adequately, efficiently, effectively?” function,’

If X-Corps has no funding, it’s game over for the player, X-Corps is shut down. I didn’t want to imply that X-Corps might be able to function sans funding at all (If this has been changed and I’ve not noticed, then I’ll add it in a future revision).

‘Therefore, the discovery of large numbers of UFOs congregating on any one area should be investigated “and thwarted?” by X-Corps operatives as a top priority.’

Investigation is advised primarily to discover whether these ships are indeed infiltrators, or on some other mission type, whilst “thwarting” alien activity of any type can be filed under “well, duh” when it comes to X-Corps’ reaction.

And yeah sorry, I don’t speak American; nor does my non-internal spell checker, so feel free to “correct” any and all Anglican spellings to your American monstrosities. :P
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#18 Astyanax

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 11:57 AM

The usual clauses: Red text indicates additions, orange text indicates deletions, and blue text indicates comments or suggestions.

Added [brackets] and capitalizations of the word "Alien" are not denoted.

Of all the missions carried out by the Alien forces on Earth, few, if any, match [Alien Infiltration] missions in terms of their insidious natures, or in their immense danger to the survival of the X-Corps project.

How about: "...match [Alien Infiltration] missions in terms of their insidiousness, their sheer cunning, or their immense danger..."?

Though of little direct threat to X-Corps' bases or personnel, [Alien Infiltration] missions seek to actively subvert friendly governments from their alliance with X-Corps, and as such, cutting out the very foundation supporting the X-Corps project.

Over the course of several weeks, UFOs of varying sizes can be seen in the skies over the targeted country in a frenzy of activity, as covert Alien operatives investigate the network of the local government, seeking out information pertaining to centers of authority, national leaders, and the executive infrastructure through the kidnapping and subsequent interrogation of local civilians; and thorough research into what seems to be a somewhat foreign concept within the Alien’s strictly controlled social hierarchy.

This sentence/paragraph is very long.  Perhaps break it down into 2+ sentences to separate the thoughts?

The motivation behind this dedicated research is far from academic however; as all information discovered is used to pave the way for the insertion of genetically-altered humans, who are? unfortunate individuals artificially grown from fetuses surgically extracted from their mothers during grisly [Alien Abductions], their minds enslaved by Alien devices implanted directly into their cortex after their birth from a cold artificial womb somewhere on the Alien’s center of operations.

I still disagree with your however-comma assertion, but we could neatly sidestep the whole issue using, "However, the motivation behind this dedicated research is far from academic; as all information..." or even, "However, the motivation behind this dedicated research is far from academic.  The discovered information..." :)  Also suggest splitting this sentence/paragraph for clarity.

Once sufficient investigation has been carried out, and the groundwork for insertion prepared, larger craft descend upon the country to release their human payload; frighteningly efficient/ruthless? agents who will swiftly carry out their pre-programmed objectives, seeking out and establishing contact with the highest branches of the national government, bearing such advanced Alien technologies as advanced generators, high-powered flight engines and powerful military weapons as bargaining chips for both an alliance, and the country's withdrawal from the X-Corps funding project, severing the financial ties upon which X-Corps depends.

This sentence/paragraph is also very long.  Suggest breaking it down into 2+ sentences.

Since the technologies proffered by Alien agents are powered solely by Xenium, a substance of which the extraterrestrial invaders hold a complete monopoly of, the Aliens cleverly create a captive market; and once the a? pact is made, corrupted governments are unlikely to renege on such agreements "on such agreements" is a bit redundant because you were referring to "pact" in the previous phrase, because the loss of their Xenium supplier would mean the loss of all the benefits that caused them to turn their backs on X-Corps in the first place.

Suggest breaking down this sentence/paragraph into smaller sentences.  One suggestion: "...captive market.  Once..."

Clearly, it is vitally important to prevent the subversion of governments against X-Corps by any means necessary, for without funding and open access throughout international airspace, the X-Corps cannot function, and the Alien victory shall be all but assured.

Therefore, the discovery of large numbers of UFOs congregating on any one area should be investigated by X-Corps operatives as a top priority, in order to thwart such attempts off in their exploratory stages, and intercept vital initial reconnaissance data before it reaches the Alien mastermind.

The first part of this sentence feels a bit cumbersome.  Suggest: "Therefore, (a large spike in/a large increase in/an escalation of) Alien (UFO?) activity focused on one particular area should be investigated..."

Hopefully with swift action against the smaller vessels, [Alien Infiltration] missions can be suppressed before they have accumulated enough data to dispatch larger vessels.

"Dammit Jones, you shot another civvie!"
"But Serge, this one was carrying a suitcase of Xenium! Think we should report this?"

Very nicely done, Sinscale17. =b Even if it was rife with British monstrosities... :D

Your explanations make sense, for the most part; the only one I really disagreed with you was the however-comma issue. As far as I know, I've never seen "however" without a comma (well, except when it's actually a part of the sentence: e.g. "I will do this for however long it takes!"), but I suggested an alternative above to circumvent the issue.

-Asty
p.s. Keep up the good work over in the X-Com strips thread! :naughty:

Edited by Astyanax, 23 February 2005 - 01:45 PM.

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#19 dipstick

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 01:13 PM

British monstrosities - what on earth do you mean??

And talk carefully... :sly: :NyaNyaNya:
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Posted 23 February 2005 - 02:09 PM

British monstrosities - what on earth do you mean??

And talk carefully...  :sly:  :NyaNyaNya:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh oh :P

#21 Astyanax

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 02:12 PM

British monstrosities - what on earth do you mean??

And talk carefully...  :sly:  :NyaNyaNya:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh oh :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, but I always talk carefully! ;)

:JK:
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Posted 23 February 2005 - 02:20 PM

British monstrosities - what on earth do you mean??

And talk carefully...  :sly:  :NyaNyaNya:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh oh :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, but I always talk carefully! ;)

:JK:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Don't worry... both are monstrosities :P

#23 Sinscale17

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 03:29 PM

Insidiousness and "severe cunning" have many of the same connotations, it's really one or the other.

However without a comma is valid, because it's actually at the end of a "sentence". In typical short sentence (typically American :P) writing, a semicolon is usually replaced by a full stop. However, with that sentence it's not ", however the information discovered" it's "far from academic however". This may seem wrong, but it is not however; commas don't go with however at the very end of a sentence.
Not enough people use semicolons correctly nowadays, but they are used to break up paragraphs and sentences in much the same way as a period is; hence why my sentences can usually run on for a full paragraph when I'm feeling particularly verbose - I tend to retain the older literary habits of endless sentences divided by the relevant punctuation, without descending to making a period between every separate point I make.
I guess I'll see what I can do to shorten them however. (Ha! Again without the comma! :devillaugh: I'm such a deviant)

And my final comment on the last paragraph I should probably just replace it with "numerous UFOs", knock off three words and all. :P

And if I can think of anything up there with Power Suit shenanigans, I'll be sure to post it on up in the strips thread. It's fun to get into a little pixel art again. ^-^

I'll have another draught up once I'm feeling less lazy and/or busy.
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#24 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 03:58 PM

Two things that caught my eye.
First, X-Corps stands for Xenocide Corps, therefore it's not "X-Corps Project", it's "Xenocide Project", correct all instances of it. Also, X-Corps Project (to be corrected to Xenocide Project) at the end of the first para and the beginning of the second para is repetitive, I suggest changing for "our organisation" for example.
Second, this paragraph

Since the technologies proffered by Alien agents are powered solely by Xenium, a substance of which the extraterrestrial invaders hold a complete monopoly of, the Aliens cleverly create a captive market; and once the a? pact is made, corrupted governments are unlikely to renege on such agreements "on such agreements" is a bit redundant because you were referring to "pact" in the previous phrase, because the loss of their Xenium supplier would mean the loss of all the benefits that caused them to turn their backs on X-Corps in the first place.

Seems awfully vague and not self-explanatory. You vaguely imply that the Aliens give the governments Xenium in exchange for their allegiance. I must object to this, Aliens giving Xenium to Humans doesn't seem correct, mainly because it's scarse and it'd be a dire strategical mistake by the Aliens to give it on a regular basis. Besides there is also the point of Terror Missions, their purpose is to scare the population to coerce the government to sign a treaty of some sorts, I suggest you change that.
The fluff may need a little work as well.
It's a great work overall, keep it up =b

#25 Astyanax

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 04:20 PM

Insidiousness/sheer cunning: Sometimes I use multiple words of similar meaning for greater emphasis, but it's not necessary.


About the usage of however and commas...

"The motivation was not academic, however." (Incorrect?)

"The motivation was not academic however." (Correct?)

EDIT- I guess the same rule would apply to sentence-ending "though"s, and -ly adverbs (i.e. unfortunately, luckily, etc.)?

If that's true, well, I guess I've learned something new today. :)

As for the semicolon, I think we're agreeing since I didn't move the semicolon. Just make sure that the parts on each side of the semicolon are complete thoughts. ;)

Personally, I like semicolons, but your long sentence/paragraph structure reminds me an awful lot of Hemingway (except, well, you don't mention rain enough :) ). I suggested splitting the sentences up to prevent subject confusion.

Edited by Astyanax, 23 February 2005 - 04:45 PM.

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 04:22 PM

I have to agree with Astyanax on the use of the coma after and before the however, but maybe I'm wrong too.

#27 Sinscale17

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 06:03 AM

Yes Astynax, exactly like "though". Often, in a sentence, though is used linking two portions together:

"Great party, though there wasn't not enough booze."

Note the comma, which divides the two concepts of the sentence.

"Great party, not enough booze though."

In the second example, there are still two concepts that are divided by the comma, but here, this division is carried not by the though, but by the not. Though is not linking a second concept within the sentence, so a comma is unnecessary.
Finally, a sentence without a comma at all is easy to reach, simply by dividing the two concepts between sentences.

"I enjoyed myself! There wasn't enough booze at the party though."

Forgive me if I seem to ramble. I'm a writer by my preferred trade, and I do find the many peculiarities of English absolutely fascinating. Hopefully this is a helpful explanation on it. ^-^


Enough on English, onto business. =b (Amazing how I manage to write this much non-CTD stuff when I'm "busy" isn't it?)

1: Xenocide rather than X-Corps? No problem, I just didn't know. :)

2: I'd have to defend the idea of Aliens providing Xenium to treacherous countries actually.

A: No other material is 100% unreplicable by Earth technicians.
A gift of a kilogram of Alien Alloys can be researched, duplicated, and put on the production line within five years tops (if you really think X-Corps' scientists are that much better, it only takes THEM a week). Does this bind a government to a standing non-aggression pact? Are politicians really that honest?

B: All alien technology is Xenium dependent.
They power their coffee machines with it for Light's sake, are they really going to start inventing new toys purely to show off to the humans?

C: No other material is as large of a bargaining chip.
Think how dependent you are, late game, on Elerium in UFO. You need it for your armour, you need it for ammunition, you can't even fly your Avengers without it. Psi. Amps need it, ship power sources need it... Everything above Laser Weapons and Personal Armour has at some level, a dependency on Elerium.
The same happens in Xenocide, and Earth governments - which lack the technology to even shoot down a UFO, yet alone stand much of a chance capturing a landed one, have one choice:
Keep supporting the Aliens, and get given 50 units of Xenium a month (think how far THAT will go, it's as much as one power source), or stop supporting the Aliens, and lose your experimental jet, your high powered plasma cannon-based howitzer, your experimental jet's fusion ball launchers.... and your alien coffee machine.

D: It's actually pretty plentiful.
Calculate for a moment.
One large scout - nine aliens, each alien is carrying one alien grenade, one plasma weapon, with one reload, one of the aliens is also carrying a Mind Probe.

2(2x9)+51 = 87 units of Xenium used. Per scout. 2 units per alien grenade, 1 per plasma clip, 1 per Mind probe. Minimum. If you assume that every alien is carrying a heavy plasma instead, that's 123 units of Xenium. And a battleship carries the best part of 400 units of Xenium per vessel, fifty per power source, and assuming only twenty aliens.

How many scouts do you typically find a month? Even assuming only around 5, that's half a thousand units of Xenium. Add a few battleships, constant supply ships.... you can easily reach upwards of two thousand Xenium per month. And do these ships need refuelling like the Avenger?
Just because it's rare for humans doesn't mean it's rare for Aliens. One way or another, they have Xenium, manufactured or otherwise.

E: Terror missions don't work right.
If somebody punched you, and told you to be friends with them, or they'd punch you again, would you? You don't coerce people into alliances with force, or they will betray you.
Besides, if there were a link, then terror sites would coincide with infiltration attempts. They don't, nor are they said to be in the Terror Mission CTD. I don't believe this alternative would work.


3: I'm a writer, not a fluffer! Get somebody else to fix it. :P

If anyone else has any comments, better to make them now before I smooth things out again. *Goes back to work.*
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#28 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 06:25 AM

2: I'd have to defend the idea of Aliens providing Xenium to treacherous countries actually.

A: No other material is 100% unreplicable by Earth technicians.
A gift of a kilogram of Alien Alloys can be researched, duplicated, and put on the production line within five years tops (if you really think X-Corps' scientists are that much better, it only takes THEM a week). Does this bind a government to a standing non-aggression pact? Are politicians really that honest?

True, but anyway, only X-Corps know what they do and only they have the technology to make proper use of it, I doubt the Aliens will also give governments plasma weapons to play with Xenium.

B: All alien technology is Xenium dependent.
They power their coffee machines with it for Light's sake, are they really going to start inventing new toys purely to show off to the humans?

Exactly, they cannot afford to give up what powers their war machine, Xenium is unique. They cannot get more, in fact, Alien Goal stands on the fact that eventually they'll run out. :)

C: No other material is as large of a bargaining chip.
Think how dependent you are, late game, on Elerium in UFO. You need it for your armour, you need it for ammunition, you can't even fly your Avengers without it. Psi. Amps need it, ship power sources need it... Everything above Laser Weapons and Personal Armour has at some level, a dependency on Elerium.
The same happens in Xenocide, and Earth governments - which lack the technology to even shoot down a UFO, yet alone stand much of a chance capturing a landed one, have one choice:
Keep supporting the Aliens, and get given 50 units of Xenium a month (think how far THAT will go, it's as much as one power source), or stop supporting the Aliens, and lose your experimental jet, your high powered plasma cannon-based howitzer, your experimental jet's fusion ball launchers.... and your alien coffee machine.

It doesn't matter, it's still WAY too valuable for the aliens to give it away, they are mercyless conquerors, not friendly conquerors, they are not here to conquer with pretty words and cute gifts. I hardly think that the aliens will give things like plasma weapons, fusion ball launchers and stuff, those are powerful weapons they don't want Humans to get their hands on.

D: It's actually pretty plentiful.
Calculate for a moment.
One large scout - nine aliens, each alien is carrying one alien grenade, one plasma weapon, with one reload, one of the aliens is also carrying a Mind Probe.

2(2x9)+51 = 87 units of Xenium used. Per scout. 2 units per alien grenade, 1 per plasma clip, 1 per Mind probe. Minimum. If you assume that every alien is carrying a heavy plasma instead, that's 123 units of Xenium. And a battleship carries the best part of 400 units of Xenium per vessel, fifty per power source, and assuming only twenty aliens.

How many scouts do you typically find a month? Even assuming only around 5, that's half a thousand units of Xenium. Add a few battleships, constant supply ships.... you can easily reach upwards of two thousand Xenium per month. And do these ships need refuelling like the Avenger?
Just because it's rare for humans doesn't mean it's rare for Aliens. One way or another, they have Xenium, manufactured or otherwise.

That's not important, it's irreplaceable, it's illogical to give it away.

E: Terror missions don't work right.
If somebody punched you, and told you to be friends with them, or they'd punch you again, would you? You don't coerce people into alliances with force, or they will betray you.
Besides, if there were a link, then terror sites would coincide with infiltration attempts. They don't, nor are they said to be in the Terror Mission CTD. I don't believe this alternative would work.

Here is where I disagree completely. Terror Missions work perfectly, that's the thing. The Aliens don't want friendship, they want submission, and force is the way to accomplish that fast. If somebody punches me, I doubt it is to ask me to be his friend, it'd want something from me, and depending on the circumstances (if he is pointing me with a gun for example), I could very well do what he says, it's not that easy to risk your life that way. Terror Missions are made to scare population, by scaring population the governments are under pressure by the people to do something, the governments have to do something, so expecting to end the attacks, they sign a treaty that says that they will not support anymore an organisation destined to kill the Aliens and in exchange they live and once the Aliens conquer, they'll live better. So governments in desperation believe this lie, seeing no other way (or thinking that's the best way to keep their lives) sign the treaty and cut funding. I think this aspect of Terror Missions are vital to the Aliens' strategy.

3: I'm a writer, not a fluffer! Get somebody else to fix it. :P

If anyone else has any comments, better to make them now before I smooth things out again. *Goes back to work.*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Neither am I :), I've only managed to write some good, but not many, especially since writing funny fluffs in english is not that easy to me :D
Hmmm, let me try...

"Ehhh, sir, I think this country is under Alien control..."
"What makes you think that son?, those policemen threatening us with their plasma pistols, that UFO landed on that parking lot, or that Grey and that old man playing chess?
"...Actually, it was that 'I heart Aliens' sticker on that car..."
- Sgt Thompson and Private Williams, captured on Alien-controlled country.

Ok ok, I said I'm not a fluffer either :P

Edited by Azrael, 24 February 2005 - 10:55 AM.


#29 Astyanax

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:25 AM

Well, I guess I've learned something new about comma use. Thanks, Sinscale17.

How about this:

The Aliens give Xenium away as part of their grand plan to subjugate humanity- get all the terrestrial governments dependent on Xenium, then when the time is ripe, cease giving Xenium, leaving the Earth particularly defenseless and easy to take over. That way, it's a method of the Aliens to hold Earth governments in thrall and control.

EDIT- or the Aliens taint their Xenium or give equipment that has been crippled in some unknown fashion. And since one of the stipulations of the government's pact with the Aliens is a non-communication clause, the X-Corps can't take a look at the gadgets or tell them they're being had...

Edited by Astyanax, 24 February 2005 - 10:57 AM.

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:52 AM

I don't see much logic in that... :(

edit: besides, if it is as you two want it to be, then Alien Terror Missions lose a LOT of strategic value, and leaves them as the aliens trying to have a good time firing at those civillians while those annoying X-Corps try to ruin the fun <_<

Edited by Azrael, 24 February 2005 - 10:54 AM.


#31 Astyanax

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 11:04 AM

On the issue of the Aliens' limited Xenium supply, I guess that would depend on the Aliens' assessment of how dangerous the X-Corps really is.

If the X-Corps is deemed very dangerous, then "buying off" countries using, say, 10-20 units of Xenium a month might be very economical. Instead of fighting a head-to-head battle with the X-Corps which has resulted at that point in losses of both manpower, Xenium, and UFOs, the Alien subversion method might be a more attractive route for the Aliens. Alien Terror Missions would still be useful as a method of allowing the Aliens to get to the negotiations table (the Aliens force the government to capitulate, broker a lop-sided agreement, and appease the subjugated government with mere trinkets of their technology).

Alternatively, it can always be said that the Aliens only gave away technology initially; one of the conditions of the pact is to let Aliens sit in on important meetings in secret allowing Alien psionicists can manipulate decisions. Still, this kind of negates the "allied countries don't renege on the Aliens due to Xenium dependency" reasoning, though it opens up the "allied countries don't renege on the Aliens due to the higher government being psionically controlled puppets of the Aliens" approach.

Edited by Astyanax, 24 February 2005 - 11:07 AM.

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 12:12 PM

I'm completely against the Aliens giving Humans Xenium, or any weapons of any kind. I feel that Terror Missions play a very important role in the Aliens' plans, and is very much linked with Alien Infiltration. Besides, I don't care how much they have and how economical they can deem giving a few governments a few Xenium, it's unique, think of strategy, would you give up the one resource you can't get more of?, it's a serious strategical mistake.

#33 Sinscale17

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 12:12 PM

Firstly, terror missions - Terrorism in human terms frequently has a lot of "hidden" strategic value. Think of September 11th (I apologise in advance to people offended, if there are any, by my ramblings here). There was no technical "gain" by the terrorist agency that carried out this attack, the actual death toll was low to minimal in the scheme of things, the buildings themselves were actually rather ugly things and rather unpopular, and the overall "damage" to the country as a whole was marginal at best.

Yet the effect the attack had was huge. People lost faith in their previously unquestioned immortality as a young nation and their government's ability to protect them; the general complacency and feeling of safety was lost.... The overall effect of a few hijacked planes? Huge.

Alien terror missions aren't about intimidating governments into pacts, they're about just that, Terror. The alien forces are engaging in terrorist activity to make the government lose faith in all they rely on, and the effects are huge - the government may reduce or cut funding on the strength of a single terror mission, hence the huge impact on score. Even neighbouring countries cut funding on a successful terror mission. This might pave the way for future infiltration, but it is far less important than the primary effect of a successful terror mission.


Secondly, the logic of a Xenium trade is purely one of economics.

- Every scout shot down is 87-123 units of Xenium lost.

If you could save just one scout per month by cutting off the airspace above a country and get the related country to attack X-Com FOR you, then giving even fifty whole units of Xenium to a country saves you a minimum of fifty percent of that investment extra. Even if it's a non-renewable resource, that's successful economics in action.

- This is purely a temporary measure. If you successfully cut 100% of X-Corps' funding, then you can immediately cease every single alliance - they can't stop you with their top of the line "ten plasma pistols, three alien tech fighters armed with large scout plasma beams, and three alien grenades" which will run out of juice in a few months anyway.

Without X-Corps, with the unknown factor and threat they represent as "best of humanity", the Alien forces can take out one country at a time, just as the Romans took out the client kingdoms of ancient Britain (they did so, incidentally, by giving away valuables of theirs of great worth, making them dependent on Roman goods, before absorbing them into the Roman empire - Divide and conquer has a good history behind it).


The aliens don't even need an ulterior motive beyond this. The only threat to them is X-Corps. Even supported by low-end alien technology, no single country can muster the same response to the threat as they can, and once they fail to take out X-Corps with traditional methods, this more subtle approach is one of the most efficient methods available to combat them. It's cheaper than base attacks, harder to counter than terror missions, and cuts millions of dollars from X-Corps' budget in one fell swoop. They don't even need to waste a Cloak to sit in.



And that's the ultimate in efficiency. Something you don't need to maintain beyond a suitcase of Xenium a month, something that costs less to maintain than it does to ignore, and something that hurts your enemy without you lifting a finger.

There's a reason why Alien Infiltration is the most dangerous mission.
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#34 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 12:28 PM

I seem to have you both against me this time <_< .
First a few comments.

There was no technical "gain" by the terrorist agency that carried out this attack,

That's what you think.

and their government's ability to protect them

[deleted commentary]

Please no more references to the Twin Towers, as I'm sure we have conflicting views and I don't want discussions about it.

Now, let's continue.
First, what are humans going to do with Xenium?, it's used to power warmachines and warships, governments have little use for it, except in the case they research it. If they research it, they have the chance to develop new technology; the Aliens don't gain anything by this.
What you said about Terror Missions is pretty much what I've said; the Terror Missions make the people scared, the governments to lose faith in what they rely on. If they lose faith in what's supposed to keep them out of harm's way, then they have to find other means to save themselves, then the Aliens show up telling them they'll cease the attacks if they cut funding to X-Corps, the country does that and the Aliens cease to attack (until they win the game, there's when the Assimilation begins, and all treaties go to heck).
I still don't see a valid reason to give away Xenium, nor understand your views of the Alien Terror Missions.
I had attempted to create a summary of where each mission stand in the great strategy of the Aliens in my Alien Goal, I thought Astyanax had agreed with me mostly :huh:

#35 Sinscale17

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 02:18 PM

What is possible with Xenium? The most advanced propulsion technology available, advanced weapons that can easily rival and out perform an equivalanet nuclear arsenal (yes, the USA would most certainly be interested in this prospect as assuredly as any other nation, that's the nature of nations), super advanced standard infantry weapons without rival in human technology, the ability to power an entire country's electric grid with a tiny fraction of this, the sudden access to an entirely new frontier to the limits of energy production.
Alien surgery kits powered by Xenium, advanced cloning methods, powered by Xenium. Alien Entertainment, a whole new economy booster without negative side effects.... There's not exactly a limit to the alien techs a government might find interesting.

Does it matter what humans research to utilise this product in? Not really. Xenium is not a replicable substance, and the Aliens control how much can be gained by each government. No matter what weapon they come up with, in the ten or so years tops before the aliens are victorious or beaten, they most likely wouldn't even have successfully fabricated a working hybrid system, let alone anything beyond the specific alien weapon examples that are so alluring.

Infiltration missions, I seem to recall, were less likely to succeed in a country with good relations towards X-Com, though I could be wrong there. This is not, however, a total link in dependence to Terror missions, because otherwise, as I've already said, terror missions and the like would be requisites to Infiltration missions, and this is simply not the case.


As for the reasoning for Xenium trading, I've covered it extensively above. It's simply cheaper in Xenium terms to trade trinkets of high technology for an alliance, than it is to continue without one, if you assume the country will move to protect UFOs in its airspace. The risk is zero, since as it's been said, even with the minor Alien tech that tempted them initially (and again, the same tech that will become obsolete , without the unified Xenocide project, no single government can stand against the Alien forces).
Without Xenium to hold the government to its agreement, you could have one month a government signs a pact, the next month it comes back. This doesn't happen in the game, and Xenium explains why, intimidation doesn't.


Terror missions, the strategy is the same as behind all guerilla warfare, all civilian killing aspects of war, destroying non-military structures, the entire World War II air raids of Britain is similar to one long Alien Terror Mission. It's all to weaken resolve, to inspire surrender and lessen overall resistance. Germany didn't expect Britain to sign pacts after they bombed them enough, and the idea most certainly wouldn't have been entertained, but there was a military and strategic advantage of wearing down militaries and populations.

I had attempted to create a summary of where each mission stand in the great strategy of the Aliens in my Alien Goal, I thought Astyanax had agreed with me mostly


I'm sorry if this seems blunt, but that's the downside of writing such a document before the relevant CTDs are in place. The alien goal should link together pre-written CTDs, it should not attempt to shape them prior to their creation, and it seems that you're trying too hard to push this CTD into a template already set by this.


If this seems short and/or excessively blunt, I apologise; I've family visitting, hopefully I can expand as needed later when I'm less sociable.
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#36 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 02:31 PM

What is possible with Xenium? The most advanced propulsion technology available, advanced weapons that can easily rival and out perform an equivalanet nuclear arsenal (yes, the USA would most certainly be interested in this prospect as assuredly as any other nation, that's the nature of nations), super advanced standard infantry weapons without rival in human technology, the ability to power an entire country's electric grid with a tiny fraction of this, the sudden access to an entirely new frontier to the limits of energy production.
Alien surgery kits powered by Xenium, advanced cloning methods, powered by Xenium. Alien Entertainment, a whole new economy booster without negative side effects.... There's not exactly a limit to the alien techs a government might find interesting.

Yes, I'm sure the Aliens want us to create more Xenium-powered technology, advanced weapons are not an obstacle in their conquest plans.

Does it matter what humans research to utilise this product in? Not really. Xenium is not a replicable substance, and the Aliens control how much can be gained by each government. No matter what weapon they come up with, in the ten or so years tops before the aliens are victorious or beaten, they most likely wouldn't even have successfully fabricated a working hybrid system, let alone anything beyond the specific alien weapon examples that are so alluring.

The fact of researching it to produce new weapons doesn't matter?

Infiltration missions, I seem to recall, were less likely to succeed in a country with good relations towards X-Com, though I could be wrong there. This is not, however, a total link in dependence to Terror missions, because otherwise, as I've already said, terror missions and the like would be requisites to Infiltration missions, and this is simply not the case.

The AI document has not been finished, this is not X-Com 1, in fact, I'll talk with JakeDrake about this.

As for the reasoning for Xenium trading, I've covered it extensively above. It's simply cheaper in Xenium terms to trade trinkets of high technology for an alliance, than it is to continue without one, if you assume the country will move to protect UFOs in its airspace. The risk is zero, since as it's been said, even with the minor Alien tech that tempted them initially (and again, the same tech that will become obsolete , without the unified Xenocide project, no single government can stand against the Alien forces).
Without Xenium to hold the government to its agreement, you could have one month a government signs a pact, the next month it comes back. This doesn't happen in the game, and Xenium explains why, intimidation doesn't.

Yes it does, successful X-Corps operations can bring new hope, as failures more fear.

Terror missions, the strategy is the same as behind all guerilla warfare, all civilian killing aspects of war, destroying non-military structures, the entire World War II air raids of Britain is similar to one long Alien Terror Mission. It's all to weaken resolve, to inspire surrender and lessen overall resistance. Germany didn't expect Britain to sign pacts after they bombed them enough, and the idea most certainly wouldn't have been entertained, but there was a military and strategic advantage of wearing down militaries and populations.

The Germans weren't Aliens with plasma weapons and nearly invincible battleships (which are invincible to all terrestrial craft)

I had attempted to create a summary of where each mission stand in the great strategy of the Aliens in my Alien Goal, I thought Astyanax had agreed with me mostly


I'm sorry if this seems blunt, but that's the downside of writing such a document before the relevant CTDs are in place. The alien goal should link together pre-written CTDs, it should not attempt to shape them prior to their creation, and it seems that you're trying too hard to push this CTD into a template already set by this.

That discussion was going to happen sooner or later, I tried to create a text to prevent this sort of discussion, no one had complained, Astyanax had agreed with the strategy I plotted, now it seems, he doesn't.

#37 Astyanax

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 02:36 PM

I had attempted to create a summary of where each mission stand in the great strategy of the Aliens in my Alien Goal, I thought Astyanax had agreed with me mostly

It's not that I'm against you, Az, I'm just playing around with new ideas. It's quite possible that this Xenium idea might be scrapped entirely, but I'm entertaining the ideas to see if it can be modified to fit within what has already been established.

But Sinscale, you have to realize that there are a lot of existing texts, and making significant changes can impact many CTs. Understandably, there is going to be some amount of resistance to change. If we were having this discussion several years ago right when the Xenocide project was started, there'd be a lot more room for suggestions. Unfortunately, we all have to contend with the fact that we can't lightly throw away texts we don't like- we have to compromise and see if we can tinker with the texts within the existing framework.

This is, I think, why Az is frustrated about your new ideas- they are perhaps too "revolutionary" and would require sweeping changes. Frankly, there's enough to be done without re-doing what has already been finished. I also wouldn't mind more collaboration instead of butting heads, myself. :P

Edited by Astyanax, 24 February 2005 - 02:45 PM.

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#38 Sinscale17

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 05:28 AM

But Sinscale, you have to realize that there are a lot of existing texts, and making significant changes can impact many CTs. Understandably, there is going to be some amount of resistance to change. If we were having this discussion several years ago right when the Xenocide project was started, there'd be a lot more room for suggestions. Unfortunately, we all have to contend with the fact that we can't lightly throw away texts we don't like- we have to compromise and see if we can tinker with the texts within the existing framework.


No problem, I'm not averse to changing my work if there's legitimate cause, hence why I'm discussing the reasoning and failings of the alternative rather than going "Rawr. My CTD, go away. Rawr." :) I do feel perhaps, a trifle ignored in some of this reasoning, rather arbitrarily, but I can work around that.

For sweeping changes, to what do you refer? I've read the Alien Abduction, Terror and Alien Goal for references, and even the Alien Goal is neither contradicted by, nor contradicts what I've written.
The Alien Goal actually fails to address Alien Infiltration missions at all, whether by oversight or intentionally, whilst no mention of this overriding goal of alliance by force is mentioned, or even hinted at, in Alien Terror. Since Alien Infiltration and Alien Terror are separate mission types for a reason, they quite rightly have no reference to one another at present, so forgive my uncertainty here.

As to the idea of my idea being "revolutionary", I actually based it entirely on the original Alien Infiltration:

Alien Infiltration

Earth governments can be infiltrated by alien agents which are human in appearance. This can result in official contact between aliens and governments at the highest level. The climax of this activity is characterised by intense UFO activity in the vicinity of major cities. The aliens will attempt to sign a pact with an earth government by offering knowledge of their superior technology. In return the government will allow the aliens to conduct their activity unhindered. This alien mission represents the worst threat to XCom. If a government agrees to a pact then its funding will cease.


From my point of view, not even the new Terror Mission CTD mentions a link to creating new alliances, nor does the game possess such a framework in it; so actually linking the two seems more "revolutionary" to me, as linking the two missions either proposes a drastic change in the games tactical side - stopping terror missions dead in their tracks every time would severely hamper alien infiltration "threats"; or proposes a fallacy, that a government would take any such threats seriously when they've neither been targetted by a terror mission, or all such missions were thwarted by X-Corps.

This doesn't even include the aforementioned impermanence of such an alliance. In the game, there is zero chance (I'm supported by official and unofficial X-Com guides alike, bugs do not a trend make) of a government which signed a pact returning to the project.
Again, with the "stick rather than carrot" version of Alien Infiltration (a misnomer by the way, this would need renaming to "alien intimidation"), either a drastic tactical change is suggested - and what could be more drastic in UFO terms than a country resuming funding? Or again, an unexplained flaw - Governments don't return to support Xenocide, but don't have much particular reason, particularly when X-Corps has started mass-producing the Vengeance class of ships, has eight bases, one of which is in the effected country, regularly shoots down fifteen battleships a day... you get the idea.


Anyway, onto the rest:

"Yes, I'm sure the Aliens want us to create more Xenium-powered technology, advanced weapons are not an obstacle in their conquest plans."

Correct. Though I'm sure you didn't expect that one. :P

No matter what Xenium powered weapon governments produce, it possesses numerous fatal flaws.

1: It's Xenium powered. The moment the alien forces decide to do so, they can sever this supply entirely. Your super ultra plasma ion mega death ray doesn't work terribly well when it can only shoot once, your standard issue Plasma Miniguns aren't terribly exciting when after a single burst of fire, they run out of ammo.

2: It ties the government more strongly to their pact. If you'd just created a new toy, would you be willing to render it useless?

3: It's Xenium-based technology. This is actually in the Aliens' best interests. If humans come up with a weapon more efficient and deadly than the Heavy Plasma/Blaster Launcher combination, then the Aliens, who are better equipped to maintain and handle such weaponry, are rewarded for relying on human invention.
If it's not of course, then this brings us to 4.

4: It's not as good. X-Corps has the best scientists - worldwide, the best engineers - worldwide, and the best equipment for both - worldwide. The best weapon they can come up with that isn't a direct copy of alien design is the Fusion Missile Launcher, and this does not beat the weapon system of an Alien Battleship, merely equals it in range and vague firepower, though the Battleship has more ammo.
In order to reach this state, the blaster bomb needed to be researched. To research the Plasma Cannon, you need more than a Plasma Pistol to build the scientific foundations to make this possible, which brings us to the possibility of 5:

5: It's not possible. To make the Vengeance, the only ship really comparable to a Battleship, you need not only the best theorists in the world working in tandem on the hugely advanced theories to make it work, you also need manufacturing tools that simply aren't advanced enough in all but the four or five most economically and technologically advanced nations in the world, not to mention research of UFO construction, Power source and navigation, alien alloys, Xenium....
To severely limit human advancement, all the Aliens would need to do is hold back the high level information and technology that is required to quickly understand the principles of the designs. Without the ability to see how high power plasma reactions work, you cannot then apply those same reactions to a heavier weapon.
Without anything to work on, and working in a region of physics formerly unknown, a government would need decades to reach the same level as the Aliens are already at.


So, yes. Aliens probably would be interested in what humans might make with their Xenium sandbox, and no, advanced weaponry that they control is not an obstacle to their invasion plans, I agree entirely.


The AI document has not been finished, this is not X-Com 1, in fact, I'll talk with JakeDrake about this.

Yes it does, successful X-Corps operations can bring new hope, as failures more fear.


I believe you've said it yourself quite a few times:

"Red Knight has asked not to meddle with gameplay"

Changing the permanence of pacts (and indeed, the entire nature of missions) as you suggest is a pretty big meddle.
This is not UFO, but that doesn't mean you should start trying to change things from the original game that don't fit your CTD ideas. That's why we have the Laboratories; to plan the game AFTER 1.0, the entire idea for 1.0 however, is to follow the original UFO game as close to the original as possible.
The task of the CTD is to make the entries fit the game, not make the game fit the entries; Even if this means you don't get to make them exactly as you may like.


I'm really not just being stubborn or abrasive here (well, okay, I'm quite proud of being stubborn and abrasive most of the time, but currently I'm not being so), hence why I've looked over to limit my usual blunt style of writing.

I've mentioned several times why the alternative doesn't work, how my current suggestion - based entirely on an original UFO outline - is a viable and realistic military tactic to adopt, and how it fits into the intended gameplay of Xenocide.

Rather than simply attacking my explanations and as such going round in circles, I'd appreciate it if you could repay the courtesy and promote your alternative in a similarly constructive manner in terms of gameplay results, and the underlying logic; preferably without resorting to simply trying to enforce what you've written Alien Goal, which is actually a less relevant CTD in terms of gameplay, and largely unimpacted by this, as I've mentioned above.


And on a lighter, megalomaniacal note:

Unfortunately, we all have to contend with the fact that we can't lightly throw away texts we don't like- we have to compromise and see if we can tinker with the texts within the existing framework.


Bwahahaha! Give me a slow week and I can rewrite them ALL! :devillaugh: I'm such a geek it's actually true.
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#39 Astyanax

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 12:04 PM

Don't worry, Sinscale, I understand what you're trying to achieve. I honestly think that both ideas can exist simultaneously, but, well, could you be a little gentler?

Not everyone here is native to the English language, and these texts represent many, many hours of hard work on their part. While it's true that I often make drastic changes while proofreading, I try very hard not to belittle their contributions to the project.

Bwahahaha! Give me a slow week and I can rewrite them ALL!  I'm such a geek it's actually true.

Believe me, I might've said the same thing when I first came here, too. I don't doubt your writing prowess, but you'd step on a lot of toes in the rewriting process, and you quickly make yourself unwelcome. Try to work with the existing texts, and be patient with the discussions (I know, I can be pretty impatient as well) because the internet medium will never be as efficient as face-to-face communication.
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#40 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 01:01 PM

The AI document has not been finished, this is not X-Com 1, in fact, I'll talk with JakeDrake about this.

Yes it does, successful X-Corps operations can bring new hope, as failures more fear.


I believe you've said it yourself quite a few times:

"Red Knight has asked not to meddle with gameplay"

Changing the permanence of pacts (and indeed, the entire nature of missions) as you suggest is a pretty big meddle.
This is not UFO, but that doesn't mean you should start trying to change things from the original game that don't fit your CTD ideas. That's why we have the Laboratories; to plan the game AFTER 1.0, the entire idea for 1.0 however, is to follow the original UFO game as close to the original as possible.
The task of the CTD is to make the entries fit the game, not make the game fit the entries; Even if this means you don't get to make them exactly as you may like.

Had you read the FAQ or the many mentions by Red Knight, though we follow pretty close the line of X-Com, this is not X-Com, this is a different game. Otherwise, we wouldn't have JakeDrake be developing an AI document which differs from X-Com. And I'll ask you to let me take care of how the texts affect gameplay or which aren't, because you may not know, but you are writing this text because I chose to add it into the Tech Tree, and I think I have a little more time here, so please feel free of not lecturing me how Xenocide works, what do we have the Labs for and how we are to follow X-Com's line.

I've mentioned several times why the alternative doesn't work, how my current suggestion - based entirely on an original UFO outline - is a viable and realistic military tactic to adopt, and how it fits into the intended gameplay of Xenocide.

Rather than simply attacking my explanations and as such going round in circles, I'd appreciate it if you could repay the courtesy and promote your alternative in a similarly constructive manner in terms of gameplay results, and the underlying logic; preferably without resorting to simply trying to enforce what you've written Alien Goal, which is actually a less relevant CTD in terms of gameplay, and largely unimpacted by this, as I've mentioned above.

So, you are accussing me of attacking your ideas, perhaps you haven't seen the many posts suggesting cooperation between us. Well I'll tell you that accusing me, is not cooperation at all, and can be considered the opposite. You are making it difficult for me.

#41 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 09:44 PM

This (should) end this senseless discussion. This is from the AI Design Doc.

1.6.8. Infiltration: Attempt to persuade a fearful country to discontinue funding to X-Corps.
1.6.8.1. Destination = Country with high Fear (See 3.1.4.)
1.6.8.2. If goal is reached, funding to player from that country is ceased.

3.1.4. Fear
3.1.4.1. CTD REVIEW: “...the aliens are aware of the delicate political balance on which X-Corp relies”.  Keeping the human population in constant Fear not only decreases X-Corp credibility (and therefore funding) but also increases general alien morale, showing that they are indeed winning this war.
3.1.4.2. To quote LockNLoad with his brilliant suggestion: “The globe will be broken down into areas (countries) and Alien influence (Fear) will go up when the aliens successfully complete a mission there, and it will go down when they fail the mission. Human bases would have a modifier that radiates out from their location, as would alien bases (maybe? Depends on if everyone knows they are there). If the alien influence is high enough, the OM may decide to send an infiltration team to try to subvert the government. If the alien influence is really low, the OM might send a scout out to see if there is a human base close by to hit. This sounds great, except I think I'd make the influence map a standard grid overlayed on the globe, and then add up all of the grid elements that are inside the country's borders to get the country's average influence. I would do this to balance out the size difference in some countries. I think that the original X-Com did influence based on the country, but the AI could gain a lot from using a more granular approach. The biggest advantage would be that a human base just off the US-Canada border would effect both countries almost the same amount, instead of the US getting all the benifits and Canada getting none.”
3.1.4.2.1. All these values are averaged into a single overall Fear value (with larger weighting for countries with more Importance.)

There it is, Terror Missions are decisive in Alien Infiltration.

#42 tzuchan

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 10:07 PM

*Looks around, shakes his head and gets down on all four*
ROWR! RUFF RUFF RUFF!!!!Chill you two! we are both part of the same pack!
RUF GRR GROWR RUFF!!!Quit fighting each other and start thinking together!
GROWR GROWR ROWR RUFF RUFF GROWR RUWR!!!!I'll grab the next one that is overly sarcarstic and is too sensitive to criticism by the nape and shake 'em like a little puppy!

Look, I'm the one who suggested that the text needed a little more indepth about the deals made. And admittedly, the Aliens are too heavily dependent on xenium that any worthwhile tech they offer may need xenium. On the other hand, who says that they need to hand off pure xenium to the goverments. For example, what if the aliens signed an arms deal with the goverments. The goverment provide the aliens with some of the resources the aliens would have previously required to harvest on thier own, the aliens cease all overtly/actively hostile acts(ie Terror missions) and supply the humans with xenium powered weapons, but not xenium nor the tech to make more.

Edited by tzuchan, 25 February 2005 - 10:14 PM.

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#43 Astyanax

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 10:44 PM

:master:

Heed the wise barkings of the canine tzuchan! Oh great guru of the pack, bless us with further growls of wisdom!
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#44 Sinscale17

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 04:09 AM

Not everyone here is native to the English language, and these texts represent many, many hours of hard work on their part. While it's true that I often make drastic changes while proofreading, I try very hard not to belittle their contributions to the project.


If I've seemed to belittle anyone's work, I whole-heartedly apologise right now. I don't believe in beating about the bush when commenting on what works and what doesn't, but I certainly don't intend to make people feel badly about it, I'm actually trying to be helpful, even when my comments are negative.
In most of the past projects I've worked on, people have tended to be rather thick-skinned, so I'm not used to sugar coating anything I say, I've actually been rather restrained here, at least for me. Otherwise there'd probably be a lot more shouting. ;)

Try to work with the existing texts, and be patient with the discussions (I know, I can be pretty impatient as well) because the internet medium will never be as efficient as face-to-face communication.


Yeah. I seriously was joking about rewriting everything though, I'm far more mellow that I might seem, just incredibly blunt. It's why

So, you are accusing me of attacking your ideas, perhaps you haven't seen the many posts suggesting cooperation between us. Well I'll tell you that accusing me, is not cooperation at all, and can be considered the opposite. You are making it difficult for me.


Actually, I was - rather politely in my mind - asking you to be more constructive, rather than negative, in your discussion is all.
A tendency of many people is to only pick out the parts they disagree with, or that annoy them, and ignore any good points (and yes, this is called "attacking an idea". it's not a negative statement though, because without criticising an idea, how can you dispute it? It just needs a little moderation). Because they don't focus on any of the good points, things are trapped at the most fundamental disagreements, and start going in circles.

For example, in each post of yours I replied to, I tried to read the entire piece as a whole, and reply to each relevant point made. When you replied, you tended to deconstruct specific parts of my reasoning, without trying to promote your own opinions or answer any of the other comments I had made, even when I pointed out that the CTDs weren't in contradiction of one another.

If someone were to apply the same mentality to this post, then they might percieve this as me accusing you of not bothering to read, or for being bad at arguing - I'm not, hence why I've included the constructive commentary, and an explanation of my reasoning - and why I've been doing so since the beginning of the discussion.

Without constructive commentary and clarification to balance out the negative criticism, you can't cooperate, you can just try to override other people and force them into your way of thinking (and I'm certainly old enough and crotchety enough to push right back =p). It's easier on everyone if both sides can adhere to this.
And please, don't think of this as me trying to tell you what to do or how to behave, just friendly advice. =)

On the other hand, who says that they need to hand off pure xenium to the goverments. For example, what if the aliens signed an arms deal with the goverments. The goverment provide the aliens with some of the resources the aliens would have previously required to harvest on thier own, the aliens cease all overtly/actively hostile acts(ie Terror missions) and supply the humans with xenium powered weapons, but not xenium nor the tech to make more.


And this is exactly the constructive reasoning I was talking about. I was thinking about Xenium being needed as fuel for most of the tech, but it could easily be already integrated. It loses the possible disadvantages Azrael raised about Xenium research, but keeps the "binding" contract of dependency to discourage them simply bouncing from side to side like a yoyo, and there's still nothing to suggest that the lack of confidence in X-Com a low score indicates (that IS what all failed missions are basically represented as, after all) isn't a deciding factor in whether governments will pursue such measures as a one-sided arms pact independently.


One thing that does spring to mind concerning this, is that in UFO, Alien Infiltration was an indication of an alien reaction to heavy losses against X-Com, not of increased power. They were incited into alliance with different factions of humans because they weren't doing well, not because they especially wanted to.

With the idea of Infiltration missions now being linked to alien success, they lose a lot of their potency, because you wouldn't even need to catch on to the presence of infiltrators if you have a successful track record of stopping terror missions.
In addition, without Infiltration, aliens lack an important tool that they used in an attempt to even the playing field (without the risk, and probable failure, of a base attack). How is this resolved without infiltration?
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#45 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 08:44 PM

This text needs to be completely rewritten to be in sync with Alien Goal.

#46 Mad

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 02:21 AM

Since the new alien goaL CT is advanced enough to give a framework, this CT is free for anyone willing to give it a shot. (Anyone besides Kafros of course - hes already has like 1000000 CTs on his hands... :P )
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#47 kafros

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 04:50 AM

Since the new alien goaL CT is advanced enough to give a framework, this CT is free for anyone willing to give it a shot. (Anyone besides Kafros of course - hes already has like 1000000 CTs on his hands... :P )

[...]together with some zillion pieces of homework and lines of C code for university and 2nd semester examinations starting next Tuesday until 27 July, thank you :P ;) ^_^

#48 Davo

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 08:37 AM

Righto lads, Ill take this one and try and work on it in my 'spare' time. Will get back to you all on it soonish

#49 Mad

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 07:54 PM

Righto lads, Ill take this one and try and work on it in my 'spare' time. Will get back to you all on it soonish

Very well! I'll be waiting anxiously to read your draft :)
Keep smiling while dying

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And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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#50 Mad

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 07:20 AM

Righto lads, Ill take this one and try and work on it in my 'spare' time. Will get back to you all on it soonish

Very well! I'll be waiting anxiously to read your draft :)

and I'm still waiting....
Keep smiling while dying

Of course I have gone mad with power! It would be completely ridiculous to go mad without power!
And no, this is not a quote from the Simpson's movie, I want it on paper, that I actually wrote that quite some time before the movie came out.

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