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When To Stock-up On Engineers


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#51 stewart

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:17 PM

. . . Laser Tanks on the otherhand are . . . still nowhere as good as . . . motion scanners . . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Nope you make more money selling laser tanks than motion scanners.

Laser tanks are /almost/ as good as laser cannons. Something like $97/h vs $96/h or something like that.

$57/h ish for Motion Scanners; a distant third.

Please see the first post of this thread.
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#52 Sharp

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 04:45 PM

Whoops, yeah your right Stewart, my mistake, motion scanners are the best early on money makers, but the difference between laser tanks and cannons is quite large depending on the scale of your money-making operation.

@Dover

Plasma Guns are much better then Fusion Ball Launchers, but the main thing of this is to get money. Each hovertank would give you around 100k profit, 100,000 not a million, the tanks sell for 1million overall, but they cost around 900,000 (excluding raw materials) to make, with the bug that would be only one batch of Elerium and Alien Alloys but still only making 100k but it takes over 1000 engineer hours, Laser Cannons (and FB Launchers) are much more profitable. For base use, fine quite good, but still wouldn't mass produce them, would make a few and then start churning out laser cannons for cash (unless its the bug and then fusion ball launchers).

#53 stewart

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:58 PM

Honestly even with the bug, with laser cannons you are still gonna be hip deep in money anyhow; your just gonna be piling it up.

A base with 255 engineers working round-the-clock building laser cannons nets you: $11,452,050/(average month). I have at least two factories in case the bugs nab one.
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#54 Zombie

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 11:15 PM

A base with 255 engineers working round-the-clock building laser cannons nets you: $11,452,050/(average month).  I have at least two factories in case the bugs nab one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL

Speaking of stocking up on engineers... I was fooling around in the game (CE version) and noticed I could order a group of 255 at a clip. Assuming you have plenty of living space, when that group arrives you can still go out and buy some more. Unfortunately, 255 is the max. If you get one more (for a total of 256) your base shows no (0) engineers are present. Point is, don't try to overstock your base with more than 255, otherwise you will end up buying more. :D

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#55 Dover

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 10:19 AM

@Dover

Plasma Guns are much better then Fusion Ball Launchers, but the main thing of this is to get money. Each hovertank would give you around 100k profit, 100,000 not a million, the tanks sell for 1million overall, but they cost around 900,000 (excluding raw materials) to make, with the bug that would be only one batch of Elerium and Alien Alloys but still only making 100k but it takes over 1000 engineer hours, Laser Cannons (and FB Launchers) are much more profitable. For base use, fine quite good, but still wouldn't mass produce them, would make a few and then start churning out laser cannons for cash (unless its the bug and then fusion ball launchers).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]

Just so we're on the same page, the "bug" is where you try to produce an item, don't put any engineers on it, go to the geoscape, go back, put some engineers on it, and then produce it right? Because that one gives you your item entirely free, both of cash and E-115.

#56 NKF

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 01:21 PM

You only have to start the project with 0 engineers. After the project has begun, change the batch amount to 1 and then set your engineers. This makes the first item in the batch free of cost and raw materials.

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#57 stewart

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 01:38 PM

Oh God so you make them one-at-a-time? :(
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#58 Sharp

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 01:41 PM

No this is the bug where you can make as many as you want but only use one set of elerium/alien alloys, you still have to pay cash per item (i think).

The one-at-a-time instabuild bug is useful for tanks and crafts, very boring though.

#59 Zombie

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 03:23 PM

Nope, you don't have to pay the manufacturing costs by producing one-at-a-time. That's why it is useful for producing big-ticket items such as advanced craft or hovertanks. ^_^

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#60 stewart

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 04:11 PM

but if you use it to produce advanced craft do you have to have at least TWO free hangars?
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#61 Zombie

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 04:51 PM

Why 2? I can produce them just fine with one free Hangar. :)

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#62 stewart

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 06:00 PM

Do you need to start by declaring a lot larger than one first or not?
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#63 Zombie

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 07:17 PM

To use this bug in your favor you have to follow these steps:

Manufacture ---> New Production ---> Select Item ---> Start Production

After these steps, do not assign any engineers or the quantity - leave these fields blank.
Continuing on:

OK ---> OK ---> Select Item (again)

Now you can assign all (or part) of your engineers and one unit to manufacture. If you select more than 1 item, the first will be free, while subsequent units will cost you. ;)

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#64 Pherdnut

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 09:13 PM

I really need to try making that straight run down the research path to laser cannons one of these games. Sooner you start cranking those out, the easier it is to spread out all over the world, I would imagine and laser HWPs aren't bad. Normally I don't get them until March or April. The PlayStation version is lame because you only get one save slot.

#65 stewart

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:40 PM

To use this bug in your favor you have to follow these steps:

Manufacture ---> New Production ---> Select Item ---> Start Production

After these steps, do not assign any engineers or the quantity - leave these fields blank.
Continuing on:

OK ---> OK ---> Select Item (again)

Now you can assign all (or part) of your engineers and one unit to manufacture. If you select more than 1 item, the first will be free, while subsequent units will cost you.  ;)

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Okay got it thanks.
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#66 Oldblue153

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:01 AM

I really need to try making that straight run down the research path to laser cannons one of these games. Sooner you start cranking those out, the easier it is to spread out all over the world, I would imagine and laser HWPs aren't bad. Normally I don't get them until March or April. The PlayStation version is lame because you only get one save slot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't really need them to spread out I generally make a new base on about Jan 20 (usually had a few scenario's and mebbe that dreaded first Terror mission by then base to be fully operable on Mar 1) and one on the 20th of every month By the time Apr or May roll around I have enough UFO's to not worry too much about the cash** note I only use 50 Scientists so if you're a hundred type of player than I guess Feb 22 n every month after.

N Really only 1 save spot? I first played X-com on the PSX and I was sure I had more than one spot I had a Game save n a Scenario save for sure as i used to reload a lotta missions back then :) doesnt it take like 4 blocks?..mebbe I had two cards ..been like 10 years

#67 NKF

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:07 AM

Here's a related note. It's sort of the reverse of the 'feature' mentioned above.

A production batch that's started with a count of 0 will mean that the first item in the batch will be free.

A batch started with 1 or more objects will mean that you'll pay for the first item. The catch is that you pay for the first item immediately when the project begins, before the object is built.

If you choose to cancel a project that started with 1 or more objects, you will NOT get repaid the amount you already paid.

What I'm saying is that if you keep starting the project with 1 or more objects and cancel them, you'll eventually exhaust your money or raw materials and not get anything back in return. It's a money drain!

It's no big deal for the occasional cancelled project, and is rather unnoticeable. The $20,000 for a laser rifle can be easily missed. However it's quite significant for the bigger and more expensive projects like the advanced ships. The Avenger for example, or any elerium powered weapon clips.

- NKF

P. S: Regarding the PSX version of X-Com. I've got a PS2, and that uses individual 8 meg memory cards (a bit of a let down compared to the X-Box's internal hard drive, considering how identical the two systems are - but that's neither here nor there), doesn't the original playstation also use memory cards? Surely you could have one per card?

Edited by NKF, 23 February 2006 - 12:15 AM.

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#68 Zombie

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:23 AM

N Really only 1 save spot? I first played X-com on the PSX and I was sure I had more than one spot I had a Game save n a Scenario save for sure as i used to reload a lotta missions back then :) doesnt it take like 4 blocks?..mebbe I had two cards ..been like 10 years

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A Geoscape save requires 3 slots, while a Battlescape save requires 4 blocks in the PSX.

Right, cancelling a 1 or more item project after it has begun does not automatically refund the money you already paid in at the beginning. I guess you could consider it a pre-payment to the engineers on reserved services or something. LOL

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#69 Pherdnut

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 08:47 AM

All I know is that the game just loads. I never get a menu to select which save I want to load. Maybe it does that if you're plumb out of space for additional saves but I think I cleaned the card out recently.

And yeah, I'll actually do 150 scientists if I'm rich enough fast enough. I can still manage to get another base up on the other side of the world and listening posts typically kick in when the laser cannons start rolling out.

Edited by Pherdnut, 23 February 2006 - 08:49 AM.


#70 Oldblue153

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 11:22 AM

Wow 150 you don't like to waste time do ya?

I did 100 on the PSX game I played, n got burned on breaking the 255 limit on engineers hehe..ahh the things you learn along the way :)

I do remember # of saves being a bit of a problem for reloading prior to glitches but i'm still confident I had at very least 2 possibly 3 saves ( n NO I never swapped out cards while my machine was on heard that can short out the memory card slot and I replaced enough "Fuses" on the boards to believe it to be true).

Oh n at 150 you best go for the Lazer cannons fast ya really need that extra income for that dead month that comes in Feb or Mar n it doesnt take all that long to research i went Lazer tech to Lazer rifle switched out for Alien gernade (even with 32 Sceintists this can be done by Jan 20-25 or so)then went back to complete the Lazer tree to Lazer cannons.

#71 stewart

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:34 PM

What I'm saying is that if you keep starting the project with 1 or more objects and cancel them, you'll eventually exhaust your money or raw materials and not get anything back in return. It's a money drain!



Hey that may be the key to Zombies "sell nothing challenge"
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#72 Zombie

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 08:58 PM

Maybe. But the main problem will be to minimize the disposal costs. In addition, you probably do not want to get rid of Elerium in the process. This really limits your possibilities.

To get rid of excess Power Sources and/or Navigations, the cheapest way is to manufacture Firestorms. Still, that carries a fairly hefty price tag of $400,000 per unit. Of course, the cheapest method would be to destroy those objects in the Battlescape.

As for getting rid of alien alloys, there are a few items which fit the bill:

Item               Cost          Alloys          Cost/Alloy
Avenger          $900,000          120             $7,500
Lightning        $600,000           85             $7,059
Firestorm        $400,000           65             $6,154
Personal Armor   $ 22,000            4             $5,500
As you can see, Personal armor is the cheapest method to get rid of alloys without depleting your Elerium stockpile. Here again, the best method would be not to recover any alloys. That can be accomplished by not finishing a UFO mission. :)

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#73 stewart

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 09:25 PM

That fits with what I said here!!!!
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#74 Zombie

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 09:53 PM

Indeed, mathematics proves your point. =b

However, sacrificing Firestorms takes a toll on your point score too. Each one you send to its doom will cost you 250 points. That could really add up. And since your only income will be coming from happy countries, score plays a gigantic role. :(

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#75 stewart

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 09:57 PM

You and I, in particular, know VERY WELL how to pump up your monthly score (both our earths look like - I believe you called it - a christmas tree). :P So we can send entire Wings to their doom. B)
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#76 Zombie

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 10:36 PM

A "christmas tree" it was. :P

I gotta try this out sometime soon. It would really be an interesting challenge and a completely different strategy to follow.

Speaking of engineers (and getting back on topic), I filled one of my bases with 255 engineers. Then I ordered 1 more. Technically, until the new engineer arrives you are safe. So I waited until the last possible minute, and transferred one engineer to another base to avoid losing everyone. Instead of having 255 at my base again I now had 254! Bug alert! I tried this again with a purchase and subsequent transfer of 50 engineers. Now I only had 205. Not good. :(

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#77 Oldblue153

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 10:42 PM

Uhhmm I think theres another prob with the no-sell scenario.

As far as I can remember if your stores are full you cannot start manufacturing something different..you may go over with present production but when you try to manufature something else it says not enough stores...least I seem to remember that ...don't often go over anymore so mebbe someone can confirm this one.

#78 Zombie

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 10:52 PM

No, General Store space plays no role in your ability to produce items. In fact, you can produce items with no General Store modules built. As long as you have engineers willing to produce, items get stacked, well, anywhere there is room! :)

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#79 stewart

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 11:41 AM

A "christmas tree" it was.  :P

I gotta try this out sometime soon. It would really be an interesting challenge and a completely different strategy to follow.

Speaking of engineers (and getting back on topic), I filled one of my bases with 255 engineers. Then I ordered 1 more. Technically, until the new engineer arrives you are safe. So I waited until the last possible minute, and transferred one engineer to another base to avoid losing everyone. Instead of having 255 at my base again I now had 254! Bug alert! I tried this again with a purchase and subsequent transfer of 50 engineers. Now I only had 205. Not good.  :(

- Zombie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


From one of the chapters of Zombies book "How I turned a million dollars in realest into $25 in cash"
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#80 stewart

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 12:12 PM

Oh, silly us. I just thought. Of course you can do the no-sell game. Once your stores are full all the game does is complain, it doesnt crash or anything. So we really dont have to focus too hard on destroying stuff.
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#81 Dover

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 01:45 PM

Maybe. But the main problem will be to minimize the disposal costs. In addition, you probably do not want to get rid of Elerium in the process. This really limits your possibilities.

To get rid of excess Power Sources and/or Navigations, the cheapest way is to manufacture Firestorms. Still, that carries a fairly hefty price tag of $400,000 per unit. Of course, the cheapest method would be to destroy those objects in the Battlescape.

As for getting rid of alien alloys, there are a few items which fit the bill:

Item               Cost          Alloys          Cost/Alloy
Avenger          $900,000          120             $7,500
Lightning        $600,000           85             $7,059
Firestorm        $400,000           65             $6,154
Personal Armor   $ 22,000            4             $5,500
As you can see, Personal armor is the cheapest method to get rid of alloys without depleting your Elerium stockpile. Here again, the best method would be not to recover any alloys. That can be accomplished by not finishing a UFO mission.  :)

- Zombie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Okay, so you have Armor, how do you get rid of it? Strap it to a rookie I suppose, but that costs you an extra 40k that wasn't considered!

How about making Fusion Ball Launchers? Would that be better? it could be used in-combo with all the blown-up firestorms.


Oh, and congrat Stewart, on getting 10k posts! =b

#82 stewart

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 01:56 PM

:blush1:
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#83 Sectopod

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 10:27 AM

I always make Fusion Ball Launchers :P They don't use up Alien Alloys at all. (I'm using Collectors Edition... but did the old UFO need AA's?)

Once I ordered my Engineers to make a bang smack of 500. Very nice profits :)

#84 NKF

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 03:00 PM

It's the same between the collectors edition or the dos version. The first fusion ball launcher in the batch doesn't use alien alloys, all fusion balls after that do.

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Edited by NKF, 11 March 2006 - 03:01 PM.

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#85 Kratos

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 07:22 PM

Alien alloys are plentiful (if you actually raid anything that is :P ), so why would it matter? :) Ellerium is rare, unproducable, and the most consuming alien source ever. Alien alloys don't matter that much compared to it. ;)

#86 Zombie

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 07:55 PM

No matter what I do alien alloys can quickly clog my stores and prevent me from purchasing anything. Nabbing 231 alien alloys from a battleship is almost overkill in my book. :wink1:

Recently, I started using the "just-in-time" inventory method when it comes to alien alloys. I just sell it all off except for perhaps 120 units (enough for an Avenger). Then if I need to manufacture an Avenger, I send my troops to a Supply Ship (141 alloys) to replenish the stockpile. Works like a charm. :)

- Zombie
The Mr. Grognard of X-COM

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!


#87 NKF

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 02:09 AM

Heh, I do the same for the power sources and navigation. I keep 1 UFO Navigation and 2 Power Sources and sell off the rest. That's enough misc parts, not counting alloys, for constructing an Avenger. The key is to get into a habit of clearing out your stores every so often.

---

Back to the fusion ball launcher and laser cannon issue, even without taking the cost of the alloys into account, the laser cannons can still bring in quite a tidy sum as it takes 100 less engineering hours than a fusion ball launcher.

244 engineers working on 20 laser cannons can churn the batch out in 24 hours while the same crew working on 20 fusion ball launchers would need 32 hours. The profit for the fusion ball launcher at the end however will be much higher, about $5,286.67 more than the laser cannons. But, at the cost of 8 additional hours. And if you want to take into account the alloys, the value of 19 (20 - 1) raw alien alloys.

Still, in the short run, the fusion ball launcher's fine enough for small production runs. The laser cannon beats it when it comes to large scale production.

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