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#1 Exo2000

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 07:03 AM

Well, I've started on my biggest map ever!!!! It's a 40x40x8 Missile Launch Silo, Spacerocket style, not Nuke. I'm going to ask this now:

Does ANYBODY want to help me?

If we can all work as a team on this, it should be pretty awesome. I can do the rocket, and maybe the Launch Control. Once I've done the interior and exterior of the Rocket, I'll post it up.

The map won't be playable in UFO2k due to size/height restraints, as well as the 255 MCD limit. The map uses Alien Base parts, X-COM Base parts, Avenger, Lightning and Skyranger parts as well as some Urban bits for the ATC.




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(Awwww damn! It's acting really wierd and the tiles are messing up -BIG TIME-. I dunno what's up with it. All the dirt suddenly got turned to Avenger walls and the rocket is ****ed up big time I might have to start over and just do it all in one go ><)

~~

If UFO2k eventually gains 8-level support we could make it into a map/tileset, perhaps like Skyranger Factory. The bottom of the launch shaft has access, but only by either jumping in off the side of the access ramp or by finding the secret bunker/entrance thing which is made so you can escape from the bottom of the shaft if you fall in.

Edited by Exo2000, 23 August 2004 - 07:38 AM.

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#2 Twilight Owl

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 04:31 PM

The map won't be playable in UFO2k due to size/height restraints, as well as the 255 MCD limit.


So why have you posted it in the UFO2000 forum?
Probably you need this one: http://www.xcomufo.c...p?showforum=192

Edit: remembered that i'm a moderator, so moved the topic to the right forum :)

Edited by Twilight Owl, 23 August 2004 - 04:39 PM.

Sorry for my English :)

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#3 stewart

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 07:28 PM

Stewart gives Twilight Owl 3 way-to-go points!
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I'm starting to like the heavy cannon more and more.

#4 Deathskull

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 07:41 PM

i might be able to help. just post a "blue print" of the silo and tell what to do
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#5 Exo2000

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 07:52 PM

http://www.xcomufo.c...?showtopic=5511

^New Thread

This is the old one, check there for more info.
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#6 Hobbes

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 08:25 PM

Dude, you are insane :)

I am working on a new 60x60 map so i won't be able to provide much assistance but here's a couple of tips that might help.

If you just want to draw it and place a pic I don't think you will need to pay attention to the 255 mcd entries limit and create a new tileset for it. Simply try to assign the terrain files you want and draw it. It's much easier than to recombine existing .mcd files.
The thing you described about the tiles messing up is probably because you changed the order of the terrain files assigned to each. If a map has, for instance, Roads, Urbits, Urban and Frniture assigned, that is the order by which the mcds are loaded by the program. If you change it you get toilets on the roof :)

If the 255 mcd entry limit does apply (or if you want to make it playable) then you'll have to get Daishiva's PCKView to change the images on the .pck files. Keep in mind that you can only use existing .pck and .mcd files so you will have to combine the existing files.
To help, here are the sizes of the Terrains you mentioned: Avenger (59 mcd entries); Skyranger (65); Lightning (42), XBase1 (97), XBase2 (62), UBase (67), Urban (112), Mars (36). Remember that the game assigns the Blanks terrain automatically, so the real limit is 253 (+2 Blanks).
And afterwards, well, there's tons more stuff related to it but I will shut my mouth for now. :wacko:

#7 Exo2000

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 08:53 PM

I know I'm insane :D

The thing is, I assigned the terrain files in the said order and it STILL messed up. It always happens with the majority (whichever terrain there is the most of) winning over the minority and messing it up.
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#8 Hobbes

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 09:49 PM

I know I'm insane :D

The thing is, I assigned the terrain files in the said order and it STILL messed up. It always happens with the majority (whichever terrain there is the most of) winning over the minority and messing it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Weird....did you remove any terrain files? If you did so, unless the file you removed was the last one on the list, it will mess the rest since you are changing the loading order. Ah.....just remembered one something, with Map Editor you are still bound by the 255 mcd entries limit. If you go over that limit, the program overwrites the extra entries over the first ones.

#9 DaiShiva

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:30 PM

I know I'm insane :D

The thing is, I assigned the terrain files in the said order and it STILL messed up. It always happens with the majority (whichever terrain there is the most of) winning over the minority and messing it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Weird....did you remove any terrain files? If you did so, unless the file you removed was the last one on the list, it will mess the rest since you are changing the loading order. Ah.....just remembered one something, with Map Editor you are still bound by the 255 mcd entries limit. If you go over that limit, the program overwrites the extra entries over the first ones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, the editor will have no problem, you can have millions of different tiles, but once you save the map, anything over 255 gets wrapped around (limitations of the .map format) and we are stuck with that until some other project comes along and comes up with a better way of doing things.

I have not restricted the editor to only have 255 tiles because there are future projects of mine that i will probably need the extra space =)

#10 Exo2000

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 08:43 AM

Ah, so it's the actual .map that's causing the bug not the editor, ok..

Well, if anybody wants to make a terrain set with the slopes, big block (full square one) and undamaged ground from Cydonia, the main UFO parts (dissection not needed in this case, all I'll need is walls and floors/roofing) and pretty much ALL of the X-COM Base, including the walls and stairs, but not with some of the junk like the bunks and the defenses, excluding the missiles because they're gonna go on the outside of the rocket. I'll need the radar dishes.

BTW, I suggest making (if possible) a special map format that can't be read by X-COM or TFTD so therefore the 255 MCD limit need not apply. That would solve a few problems. Of course, if that's not possible, who knows?

What I need:
Walls from Avenger and Lightning
Walls from Alien Base (and floors, and the gravlift and lasers)
Alien Control Panels and Chairs
Lightning & Alien Powercores
X-Com walls, floors, dirt box, stairs
Radar Dish
Filing Cabinets (blue one and the grey cupboard, x-com base)
Wall Console (the little one in the X-Com base, Hobbes will know the one I mean, it looks like those scanners from Half-Life, cept it's grey and it has a keyboard underneath)
Missile from Missile Defense
Cydonia slopes + "dirt" box

Preferably, as much invincible as possible, I don't want people making holes in the Rocket. They can shoot the furniture, but I need most of it to be invincible. And make the powercores particularly explosive, for the over-inquisitive or sneaky.

Edited by Exo2000, 24 August 2004 - 08:45 AM.

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#11 Hobbes

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 10:33 AM

Well, based on your wish list I think the easiest way is to use the following terrain files:
U_Wall02 (47 entries)
XBase1 (97)
XBase2 (62)
Mars (36)

They add up to a total of 242 mcd entries. You can replace unused tiles on these sets with the tiles of the Avenger and Lightning tilesets that you want. Keep in mind that craft occupy a lot of tiles, so you better check first what space you have in unused tiles. And you still can add the U_Pods mcd (11 entries) if you need extra space.

One thing to take attention is the difference between .pck and .mcd files. The .pck files contain the images for each entry on the .mcd file. Sometimes there's more than one image assigned to each entry to animate the tile (the best example is the sliding doors). It is better NOT to delete those extra .pck images, if you aren't using them, because it will change the order by which the images are loaded and completely mess up the graphics. If you don't want to have to edit the .mcd files to remove the animation simply replace those images with the same one.

Well, better shut up again. If you find someone to change the .pck files (it's not hard at all after you get the hang of it, only time-consuming) I will be happy to change the .mcds for you to remove unnecessary animations and to correctly readjust the type of the entries as ground/walls/objects.

#12 Serge

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 02:34 AM

The map won't be playable in UFO2k due to size/height restraints, as well as the 255 MCD limit.


So why have you posted it in the UFO2000 forum?
Probably you need this one: http://www.xcomufo.c...p?showforum=192

Edit: remembered that i'm a moderator, so moved the topic to the right forum :)

Heh, but after we add support for 8 level maps, should we move this topic back to UFO2000 forum? ;)

Support for 8 level maps is quite easy to add (at the cost of making the game slower when using such large maps). A bit more difficult is to overcome 255 mcd entries limit. But we can have mcd files assigned to each map block and not to the whole map, so it will be possible to mix map blocks from different terrains and also have 255 mcd entries applied to a single block and it should be enough for everyone :)

Anyway, if Daishiva makes a new format for storing maps, we will add support for it in ufo2000.
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#13 Exo2000

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 05:28 AM

Well, based on your wish list I think the easiest way is to use the following terrain files:
U_Wall02 (47 entries)
XBase1 (97)
XBase2 (62)
Mars (36)

They add up to a total of 242 mcd entries. You can replace unused tiles on these sets with the tiles of the Avenger and Lightning tilesets that you want. Keep in mind that craft occupy a lot of tiles, so you better check first what space you have in unused tiles. And you still can add the U_Pods mcd (11 entries) if you need extra space.

One thing to take attention is the difference between .pck and .mcd files. The .pck files contain the images for each entry on the .mcd file. Sometimes there's more than one image assigned to each entry to animate the tile (the best example is the sliding doors). It is better NOT to delete those extra .pck images, if you aren't using them, because it will change the order by which the images are loaded and completely mess up the graphics. If you don't want to have to edit the .mcd files to remove the animation simply replace those images with the same one.

Well, better shut up again. If you find someone to change the .pck files (it's not hard at all after you get the hang of it, only time-consuming) I will be happy to change the .mcds for you to remove unnecessary animations and to correctly readjust the type of the entries as ground/walls/objects.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



:wacko:

you lost me somewhere in there...
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#14 Hobbes

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 11:06 PM

:wacko:
you lost me somewhere in there...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Don't worry....I feel that sometimes when I am rearranging an entire .mcd file ;)

After seeing your tile list for your rocket I got curious to see what the end result would turn up. So I started figuring out how to fit all of those tiles into the same map without overcoming the 255 limit and without having to change too much the terrain files. I don't have time to do it myself for you but here's how I would do it:

First, assign to a map the terrains listed above. It's probably better to list the XBase1 and 2 together and the same with the alien terrain because they will appear grouped on MapView's tile selector.
Then get PCKView, open a terrain which contains images that you want to use (e.g. Lightning) and save them as .bmps. After, open one of the terrains you will use and substitute the images of tiles you don't want (eg. the floor lamps on XBase) with the walls of the Lightning. Remember to make a backup of the Terrain folder first so that you can have the original files.
After substituting the images and saving, the .pck file will now contain the images you want. However, when you use MapView you will probably notice that the Avenger walls appear listed on the tile selector as ground or objects. Since the map is unplayable that really doesn't matter, otherwise it would be necessary to change the settings mcd entry for the image to correct it.
This was an attempt to help out with your project but probably this didn't made much sense also.....messing up the terrain files probably must have the side effect of messing also my brain. :wacko:

Regarding 8 level maps.....right now I am not sure it would be worth it. Large and complicated maps seem to get boring after a while, plus slowing the game could be a major turn off to playing.

Edited by Hobbes, 25 August 2004 - 11:10 PM.


#15 Serge

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 02:48 AM

Regarding 8 level maps.....right now I am not sure it would be worth it. Large and complicated maps seem to get boring after a while, plus slowing the game could be a major turn off to playing.

I don't like playing on very large maps too. But maybe having possiblility to use 30x30x8 or even 20x20x8 maps could be fun to play and also not suffer from the last alien problem. It would be interesting to have a rocket starting platform with a deep shaft as Exo2000 suggested.
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#16 Hobbes

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 05:26 AM

Regarding 8 level maps.....right now I am not sure it would be worth it. Large and complicated maps seem to get boring after a while, plus slowing the game could be a major turn off to playing.

I don't like playing on very large maps too. But maybe having possiblility to use 30x30x8 or even 20x20x8 maps could be fun to play and also not suffer from the last alien problem. It would be interesting to have a rocket starting platform with a deep shaft as Exo2000 suggested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, I completely agree that there can be designs more playable than others. And one thing that might help to solve the problem of the last alien are scenarios such as hold or assassination since there you know where the target is and so does your opponent.
I had an idea the other day about using maps bigger than 60x60, in order to allow for more tactical movement during the game (bigger ambushes, flank maneuvers, etc.). During the initial phase the players would move their soldiers using the minimap by pointing to locations on the map to which they should move. The engine would then move automatically groups of soldiers to that location to speed up the process. The game would only go to tactical display (that is, the battlefield view) when the teams spotted one another.
Although this idea is hardly new, since a lot of games already use it, it might be interesting to consider it.

#17 SupSuper

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 10:58 AM

yes, that would be a good idea to implement in ufo2000 :)
another similiar thing is that you can freely move your squad around (real-time like), in tactical view, and when one of the teams spotted the other, the game would switch to turn-based and battling could go on as usual.
any of them would do, as long as it cuts down the "searching for enemies" time, which can be very boring ;)

too bad, now you will never know the ancient secrets of supsupers long gone avatar ;)

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#18 Hobbes

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 11:15 AM

I also agree that if it was possible to implement real time until both squads met it would be even better. But that is probably a thing too hard to implement at the moment so I suggested using the minimap since it already displays the leader's movement during the assassination/escape missions.

#19 Exo2000

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 05:13 PM

True, it will be kinda on teh big side if I do the entire launch pad... I might do what Serge suggested and just make it into the main stand/launchpad with all the scaffolding and such.
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