XC-2 StarFire & XC-22 Eclipse

[Breunor]

The size limit would be based on fitting into the hanger facility, which is 50m to a side. Check out the screen shots of the homepage, there's one in there that shows it IIRC. 80 feet would fit fine. The model Drewid made is around 2000 polys IIRC, and includes the interior space for the units to go already. Maybe it's more, I forget now. Jim's right about the shaders and such making it look really smooth in the game, so it will be equivalent in smoothness compared to something like the Osprey for example. The osprey's internal troop compartment is only inches off from the 2x7 meter layout of the skyranger btw. The skyranger is using a turboprop engine for efficiency, and it's much slower than a jet of course, but has very good range. Realism in that area is not really necessary IMO, just a close-enough to be believable.

[Vaaish]

When I built the hanger, I planned for it to be able to house the largest craft, eg the Avenger. That means it can fit a craft that is just about 44 meters long in there and probably about 30 or 35 meters wide w/o exceeding the dimensions of the hanger.

 

And the current poly count for the hanger is 324 polys. That will increase as props are placed into the model and will probably top out around 800 to 1000.

Edited September 15, 2003 by Vaaish

[Guest Jim69]

44 Metres is a lot to work with, it could allow some quite big craft if I have my calculations right

[Breunor]

So long as there's a reason for the size, only the avenger has a need to be big. Deimos and I had discussed some ideas a while back regarding ways to make the lightning special enough that people would use it, and thought about things like a side door for each soldier, so they could all hop out at the same time and surround the plane while only using a few TUs. It would play into the lightning being the fastest response plane in the game. It's one of those marginal v1+ things, as it changes gameplay, but IMO the lightning needs something.

 

I can't tell if the wings on your concept are flat across, or do they angle down like the avenger's? If they are flat and above head level, then the side doors could work there, each door could have a little port hole window so you could spot aliens near the plane too. Just those mods would make the lightning really nice IMO, and balance it for being the smallest/lightest transport.

[fux0r666]

They sweep forward and have an antihedral outboard of the engine nacelles.. (stick downward slightly). This was to capture the ground effect to smooth vertical landings.

 

I will design something else for the lightning. I think it would be better to have it look much more like a reverse engineered ufo.

 

Edit for spelling.

Edited September 16, 2003 by fux0r666

[Guest drewid]

Actually it was a matter of reducing polys, the original model was about 45K IIRC. The current version is for use in the battlescape I think, as it's not near the limit for the X-Net.

As to the "hummer" version of the skyranger, there's no reason why we can't round it off a bit, it wouldn't have to add too many polys.

[fux0r666]

The 'hummer' doesn't look to me like it is capable of flying at mach 1. Large airplanes that fly at mach 1 look like the concorde and the B-1b.

[Guest Jim69]

I think what Fux is trying to say is that currently it is a flying brick, rounding it makes a smoother brick yet still a brick.

[Breunor]

I've renamed this thread to lightning concept. The lightning concept hasn't been finalized yet, although we do have one linked in the assetlist here. We'll consider your design another concept, I suggest doing as you said, reverse engineer a sleek ufo into a small transport. Perhaps a bigger brother to the Firestorm, that still looks like humans made it?

[Guest drewid]

I think what Fux is trying to say is that currently it is a flying brick, rounding it makes a smoother brick yet still a brick.

TBH there is no way the current design would work at Mach 1. (but the the original wouldn't have worked either )

 

Subsonic aircraft can gat away with blunt rounded nose cones, supersonic can't.

(The difference actually kicks in just below mach 1).

 

Aircraft also have a "critical mach number" when the aircraft itself is subsonic, but the airflow over some part of the aerofoil hits mach 1, which is when the problems start aerodynamically speaking.

 

Mach 1 isn't a fixed speed BTW cos the speed of sound varies with alltitude / temperature etc.

 

Anyhow that doesn't answer the question of do we scrap the original.

From a games organisation point of view I would say keep it for now.

We should really be looking at stuff we don't have as a higher priority, and treat the hummer as a placeholder. When we've got all the craft concepts in place come back and redo it.

[Breunor]

I agree with Drewid that we should use the current skyranger design that's already modeled and textured and done as the placeholder, and those with creative juices can squirt them at spots not done yet. We can go back and tweak models once they're done, the main point here is that when the current design was done, everybody liked it and it was accepted. Now this design comes along and people like it. 2 months from now another design comes along, and it's discussed and many hours go into making it look cool and it's accepted. And on and on we go. Once we have models for every item we need in the battlescape done, even as definite placeholders, we can then go back and look to tweak designs or replace models with ones everybody likes better.

[fux0r666]

Yeah, if this is the case perhaps this should be the skyranger topic still and open a new one for the lightning. I feel that this is not appropriate for anything with alien technology and even less so as a fighter. I would not confound the discussion of what the lightning should look like by trying to cram this into the mold just because it looks appealing. If you want to change it, do so. If not, don't. I think there are better lightning ideas to be had out there than this cargo plane.

[Breunor]

Well, since it's been suggested as a skyranger, lightning, and avenger concept by various people, how about we rename this " human aircraft concepts"?

 

If I came across as terse, I didn't mean to btw. Just wanted to point out something I've seen happen several times before so we don't do it again. To finish your design, perhaps you could do a side and rear view showing the scale needed to fit the units? So for a skyranger concept, showing at least the 2x7x2.5 meter interior cargo area, and the other dimensions for whatever you think it should be? The current lightning concept model had to be scaled out quite a bit from the drawn concept to fit that required space inside, is why I bring this up. You may not like the overall shape after you do this.

[Deimos]

I'll agree with what the other senior art members have said here. Its pointless to contunally discuss/tweak things we already have made up.

 

Seeing as it was a majority vote that liked the current skyranger design we decided to sign it off to the next stage. Unless we're going back to the discussion in antoher thread where the opinion of one or two members is more important that a majority team descision, we should consider the skyranger concept threads/discussions closed.

 

The lightining and the rest of the game awaits. For the lightining lets get some concpets up and posted so we know where we should be going.

 

In the original the Lightining was a 12 soldier transporter with a single hardpoint and a single width exit off the ground. There were 28 available spaces in the craft. For gameplay reasons these should not and will not be changed.

 

Concepts should either be classic ufo with human build levels or be based as an advanced jetfighter with alien parts. I like the latter (I'm thinking as an inspirational source of the Startrek Voyager with the borg enhancements)

[[[Micah]]]

I agree with Drewid that we should use the current skyranger design that's already modeled and textured and done as the placeholder, and those with creative juices can squirt them at spots not done yet. We can go back and tweak models once they're done, the main point here is that when the current design was done, everybody liked it and it was accepted. Now this design comes along and people like it. 2 months from now another design comes along, and it's discussed and many hours go into making it look cool and it's accepted. And on and on we go. Once we have models for every item we need in the battlescape done, even as definite placeholders, we can then go back and look to tweak designs or replace models with ones everybody likes better.

Fux, you need to re-read Breunor's post. That is the senior teams' position on this issue.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

In the original the Lightining was a 12 soldier transporter with a single hardpoint and a single width exit off the ground. There were 28 available spaces in the craft. For gameplay reasons these should not and will not be changed.

Uhh Deimos, what do you mean that it only has room for 12 guys, but has 28 spaces?

 

IIRC the xcomutil lightning had 28 spaces. I think.

[Deimos]

Yep but you can only take 12 guys on a mission.

[Breunor]

I thought the Avenger had 28 spots, and the xcomutil gave the lightning additional ones to make it useful? If you can only carry 12 guys and no HWPs, wouldn't it make sense to have the interior hold just those 12 spots, with perhaps additional seating areas like Drewid's skyranger design? Then the hull could be smaller and sleeker in keeping with the lightning being really fast. I honestly don't remember what the original lightning without xcomutil looked like, I never built it myself. If it did have 28 spots for some reason (which makes no sense), then our version should as well. I guess it would be the faster, weaker cousin to the avenger then.

[fux0r666]

The original Avenger looked like a failed startrek concept.

[fux0r666]

Aparently I'm not allowed to edit anymore. It's a shame because I make a lot of mistakes. What I meant to say was that the orginal lightning looked a lot like a small scout with a hardpoint at the top.

[fux0r666]

I mean medium.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

True. Why cant we edit anymore?

 

Ok, how about we make the lightning cigar shaped (like some ufos have been reported to be.) Or how about we make it pyramidal? An aerodynamic pyramid? Just throwing out ideas here.

[Breunor]

Yeah, since the Firestorm is a diamond shaped craft, you could work off of that idea perhaps, making the big brother version.

[fux0r666]

I had something in mind for the firestorm that would easily be adaptable to the lightning. All I would have to do really is adjust the sizes of certain components to change the impression of scale. It's more of a saucer than a diamond, though.

 

In my humble opinion I think that the firestorm would look much better without the purple flames coming out of those ports. The alien propulsion is supposed to manipulate false gravity wells, no? Those are my two bits.

[Guest drewid]

Lots of UFOs are triangular, might be worth trying out.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

I was thinking more pyramidal (sp?) like a pyramid. Like one of the egyptian pyramids grew engines and is now flying around. Of course, a triangular lightning could look cool too.

[j'ordos]

Like in Enki Bilal's 'Gods in Chaos' (as I believe the English translation is), where Egyptian Gods play monopoly in a flying pyramid that ran out of fuel above Paris ::

[Guest Jim69]

I was thinking more pyramidal (sp?) like a pyramid. Like one of the egyptian pyramids grew engines and is now flying around. Of course, a triangular lightning could look cool too.

Like Stargate?

[Breunor]

The downside to a pyramid shape is the lack of aerodynamics IMO. It's supposed to be the fastest transport we have, so it should be as sleek as possible while still fitting the troops inside.

 

The jets coming out of the firestorm are there as a render shot, you won't see it in the game anywhere that I can think of at the moment.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Yes jim like stargate. I was thinking more like the guo'old cargo ship in sg1 though. It was a pyramid (roughly) and still seemed a little aerodynamic. It wouldn't take too much to make it aerodynamic I think.

[Aosar]

guo'old

 

Wasn't it "gua'uld?"

 

It's supposed to be the fastest transport we have, so it should be as sleek as possible while still fitting the troops inside.

 

I'd suggest a water drop shape, IIRC it is the optimal aerodynamical shape...

[Guest drewid]

I'd suggest a water drop shape, IIRC it is the optimal aerodynamical shape...

Only at low speeds.

 

Once you get near the sound barrier you need a log tapered shape to part the air smoothly and feed the shockwave off the back end cleanly.

 

blunt shapes work well up to 700mph ish.

 

Aerodynamics don't matter too much below 70mph. That when drag starts kicking in.

[Deimos]

I thought the Avenger had 28 spots, and the xcomutil gave the lightning additional ones to make it useful? If you can only carry 12 guys and no HWPs, wouldn't it make sense to have the interior hold just those 12 spots, with perhaps additional seating areas like Drewid's skyranger design? Then the hull could be smaller and sleeker in keeping with the lightning being really fast. I honestly don't remember what the original lightning without xcomutil looked like, I never built it myself. If it did have 28 spots for some reason (which makes no sense), then our version should as well. I guess it would be the faster, weaker cousin to the avenger then.

If you look at some of my early equipscreen concepts I made a similar mistake. Basically I equippedone in game with one soldier just to get a floorplan shot of it. I'll see if I can dig it out (might be one of the ones I lost in the crash) I used Micah's super save to build it and I went back a little later as something didn't ring true with the figure of 28 soldiers so I equipped it fully and in the base equip screen the maximum allowed is twelve

Also as there's onlt a single width exit on level 1 there's now way for a hwp to exit.

 

If I can't find the original I'll build up another and grab a shot and post it here.

[BlackAce]

Hi,

 

Im Volkan Arman, I have joined to team yesterday, I will be an another 3D guy I guess I heard about your project while I was searching about X-Com on a search engine. Im a X-Com fan(atic) I guess you also think that its too bad that there is no good sequel to the X-Com UD and as Publishers has finished this game there wont be any unless some fans deal with it. So its great to see that some people working on it, and Im glad to help.

 

As a fresh member I know very little about your previous discussions and ideas, but I will try to catch up. But dont afraid I remember all X-Com series well (still playing...)

 

 

Anyways, I supposed to post something about lightning, but couldnt find any better place to explain myself. So lets proceed with Lightning, After I get details from Deimos I have modelled my "lightning" you can reach its photos via these links;

 

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/lightning_01.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/lightning_02.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/lightning_03.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/lightning_04.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/lightning_05.jpg

 

As I have been elevated to member rank today, I have seen some of your models just a moment ago. I see that Crix Dorius is very good at designing and modelling of aircrafts. So you may say that my model definately need more work, (or scrap it man) before changing it I would like to express my design idea for this aircraft.

 

First of all, design of this model based on B-2 Style Alien Tech cargo aircraft. Becuase I thought that adding cargo bay of a bomber to a UFO style aircraft ("firestorm") would give me what I need. So here it is.

 

At the moment, like X-Com Lightning Troop Transport, it has room for 12 man in 3 seats 2 corridor 4 lines formation or just 4x3 tiles where soldiers stands on their feet. Loading hatch is a two fold door, one is raising up and the other lowers down, but not enough doorway to load a tank just like in real Lightning. As this craft is quite huge it wont be any problem to add a weapon hardpoint,

 

Im going to suggest that we should add several hardpoints, otherwise it would be a useless aircraft I think, because I had never used this craft in X-Com due to lack of firepower. But if we add more space for weapons than it could be something like AC-130 Gunship and it would be a formidabble fighter/cargo aircraft. so it would be much more usefull than before only drawback could be the top speed by the way.

 

Im waiting for your comments,

Edited October 20, 2003 by BlackAce

[BlackAce]

If those links seem broken, please enter the link to your browser manually, mine is having some problems with opening the link directly from this forum...

[Breunor]

That's a nice concept for an aircraft, but I'd be concerned about the scale it would be at. Consider that it needs to hold X soldiers in a standing position (12 I think?), each soldier getting about 1m square of floor space. The hangar is 50m square, you will find some pics linked off the main page that includes the hangar. You'd have to scale the plane to fit inside that hangar, yet still have the interior 2x6x2.5m space for the soldiers. I would double-check your dimensions to make sure it meets these criteria, if it already does then I look forward to seeing anything else you have, don't worry about relative skill between the artists, as it's the concept you're promoting here, not a finished model.

 

Also, you can insert the pictures into the post rather than linking them from a remote site as well. Just cut and paste them into a single image if you want it to be a single post.

[Guest Jim69]

Personally I would prefer something a little more human using alien technology. Something like the black project ( forget the name ) with the engine compartment converted into a much larger troop compartment, the alien engine towards the middle ( making the middle section larger and the troop part longer as well ) and having instead of the wings exaust or whatever is on the Firestorm and Avenger currently. Plus certain critical parts being shielded by alien alloys ( not the whole thing ). Gives more a we don't know what the if-you-see-Kay we are doing but we are going to try it anyway kinda reverse engineering feel about it rather than going out and out Sci Fi. This is a modified picture of the aircraft to show at least what I am thinking, me and Fux are going to work on it to create something good.

[BlackAce]

TO Breunor;

What I impressed from your comment is one man will use 1msquare x 2.5m. If its correct then here is my scale for this aircraft,

 

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/ligh...g_scheme_01.jpg

 

Hanger is 50msquare x 25m, (represented by the big black box) and if we consider a landing pad smaller than 30m2 it will fit easily anyway,

 

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/ligh...g_scheme_02.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/ligh...g_scheme_03.jpg

 

for stowing soldiers; (each red box representing a soldier, 1m2 x 2.5m) regarding this values we may even load up a tank but I guess we wont.

 

Note: Aircraft dimensions are; 24.5m Width (Wing Span) / 20.1m Lenght / 5.5m Height

 

TO Jim69; Your concept model seems very nice, wings could add some more visual saturation I guess. anyways, I have been advised to create a round model rather than standart sharp delta aircraft frame so I tried to stick to real models as much as I can. About selection of model for Lightning, it will be judged by senior members I guess, so I cant say much about which is more proper for Lightning concept.

Edited October 20, 2003 by BlackAce

[Guest Jim69]

Just adding another to the mix, the more the better choice seems to be the way forward I think. It's probably easier to draw it in pencil for concepts unless ( like me ) not great at drawing Look at what has already been done, both the Avenger and Lightening. Read the style guide too, tho it is fairly vague to allow for creative control so most things will probably fit into it. If you had an idea IMO post it even if it does look a little hard lined, smoothing is easy as pie to add later. Edited October 20, 2003 by Jim69

[Deimos]

Ah the switchblade. Jim we considered that ages ago for one of the craft but as I'm sure you're aware people don't dig the forward swept wings (which you seem to have cut off). If you want to try looking either on the forums or google for the Boing bird of prey which was much better recieved all round than the switchblade.

 

Blackace, nice work I like the b2 styling to the craft and it retains a certain level of ufo like styling in there as well. Good stuff. My only concern is that its not a high enough detail level (you can use more polys ) but for a concept it rocks.

 

BTW like Breunor says you can post your pics straight into the forum now you're a member. Look just above the add reply button for the file attachments and browse for the image

[Guest Jim69]

I was awere, and by the time we are finished with it the picture will look completely different. For starters I cut off the wings because I don't want them on there, they will be replaced by something we just haven't thought what yet. The main body of the fighter is what I am interested in, especially using the engine space to create a hold for troops ( obviously expanded ).

 

It seems to me whatever has Fux's name attached to it will be rubbished right away, I hope this is not the case as it is another concept for consideration and as we all know Fux is a talented artist and I have a lot of ideas, put us together and we can come up with something good, trust me

 

Plus the fact that I think this could lead nicely onto the Avenger which is of a simular style but more advanced, which is the point is it not? That and the fact that the Bird of Prey has exactly no chance of being able to hold troops, there is no room for modification on it whereas this is a bomber/fighter and so has a fairly large hold anyway and can be adapted.

Edited October 20, 2003 by Jim69

[Breunor]

I agree with you Jim that the more concepts the better, keep the concepts rolling.

 

Blackace, those proportions look great, seeing all that sets my mind to ease :happybanana: That's looking good, since you're doing the concept via 3D model I suggest making the central body in an upper/lower split, so you can remove the top part like it would happen in the game. It's easier to do it up front than come back and split it up later IMO.

Edited October 24, 2003 by Breunor

[BlackAce]

There some small details I will add on to it, but most of the detail will be on texture, and I will also add some bump / reflection maps to make it more detailed, But bump / reflection maps will be only valid for X-Net shots I guess...

 

PS: Attaching too big or too much picture to a post may cause problems like slowdowns, so I prefer this way, but I will attach more important stuff to posts to make them more permament.

[Guest Jim69]

Like I said, what it seems like to me. Could be wrong but it seems like a lot of his designs are either ignored or rubbished whereas others ideas may be embraced a little more warmly. If this is just me then it is just me, I say what I think and unless you have a very big gun thats unlikely to change

 

Really the only place the model will be seen is in the X.Net or maybe a cut scene. As for effects IMO use what you want, there's a thread about Iridium Sheen if you do a search for it, you may want to use that for your model, it's become somewhat of a standard for Alien Alloy ships.

[Deimos]

I was awere, and by the time we are finished with it the picture will look completely different. For starters I cut off the wings because I don't want them on there, they will be replaced by something we just haven't thought what yet. The main body of the fighter is what I am interested in, especially using the engine space to create a hold for troops ( obviously expanded ).

 

It seems to me whatever has Fux's name attached to it will be rubbished right away, I hope this is not the case as it is another concept for consideration and as we all know Fux is a talented artist and I have a lot of ideas, put us together and we can come up with something good, trust me

 

Plus the fact that I think this could lead nicely onto the Avenger which is of a simular style but more advanced, which is the point is it not? That and the fact that the Bird of Prey has exactly no chance of being able to hold troops, there is no room for modification on it whereas this is a bomber/fighter and so has a fairly large hold anyway and can be adapted.

Its funny how good ideas go round and round I had a similar idea when I first saw the switchblade especially about boxing out the main engine area for troop storage

 

Where has that come from? I'm getting quite annoyed with these accusations and as I said last time, everyone's got an equal chance and its the design that generates the most excitement as well as fitting into the slot needed that will get chosen so please can you both just drop these silly ideas and get on with some actual work.

 

As I recall the circular ufo designs were very well recieved by all and we're probably going to expand on them for inclusion into the game so why the hissy fit? Chill out, what I was saying was that when I presented the idea way beofre you were a member no one liked the forward swept wing design.

 

All I'm doing is pointing you in the right direction to the popular views of the forum and senior members. I would be doing much of a lead artist job if I didn't point out these things.

 

To your final point we don't want a design for the mid level of human that looks similar to the ultimate level of tech as we're not creating a clearly defined look for each tech level. Level one- hypermodern jets. Level two well that's pretty clear from Crix's amazing firestorm model. Level three - Avenger.

 

To have models with no clear identity of their own isn't good as gamers won't identify with them as much which is why no one really liked the firestorm and Lightining as they were too close to ufo's and not as useful in the game. So people just used them as a stepping stone to the Avenger.

 

Something that we'll be addressing with our craft. The lightining will as Breunor came up with 'the fastest craft in the game'. Ok it keeps its 12 man no hwp capacity but makes up for it by being quicker than everything else. It'll have to be playtested but that's the general idea.

[BlackAce]

Yes, all of fux0r's concepts are banned...   Not at all, not sure where that concern came from, I agree with you Jim that the more concepts the better.

 

Blackace, those proportions look great, seeing all that sets my mind to ease :happybanana:  That's looking good, since you're doing the concept via 3D model I suggest making the central body in an upper/lower split, so you can remove the top part like it would happen in the game. It's easier to do it up front than come back and split it up later IMO.

"....since you're doing the concept via 3D model I suggest making the central body in an upper/lower split, so you can remove the top part like it would happen in the game. It's easier to do it up front than come back and split it up later IMO."

 

hmm, I guess there is the point which I missed. In X-Com, Soliders in Aircraft were standing in 2nd level, and they go down to 1st level via ramp, but my aircraft isnt at that height.

 

Now, it isnt a big problem, if new game engine going to use similar level feature to old X-Com's (thats what I get from your post), I have to move up my aircraft cabin to 2nd level, and then I have to increase lenght of the ramp to reduce gradient.

 

Soon I will send some shots of the modification,

[Breunor]

I understand your concern Jim. fux0r had an interceptor concept that looked good as a concept, but we had already bolted the interceptor down and it was dragged out way too long as lets open the doors again. That's why we said go for lightning with it. I like your concept as much as the others, there's no attacking going on here. I think it's hard to notice the tone of posts as it's just text, but hopefully these posts will explain that nobody is trying to attack designs. Deimos was posting in humor that the swept wing was bashed a long time ago, like late last year, and now it comes back in a different form. By all means, develop that concept just like the others, and if there's not a clear choice we can vote on which to use for v1.

[Breunor]

Hey Blackace, we're using freeform positioning, so there won't be a level 1,2,3 per se. All I meant was to have an upper chunk that can easily come off so we can see the guys inside. Check out Drewid's skyranger model for an example of what he did. All you really need to do is have the roof come off along with the door. Movement can happen in chunks smaller than 1 meter steps, but for model placement we're using the 1m by 1m tiles for consistency.

[Guest Jim69]

How big was the original? That one is like 20m long innit? Or am I just spacing?

[BlackAce]

Here I have added some "details" on the fuselage, but I still have to think something for weapon hardpoints. I would appreciate if you can help me on this, for now Im thinking of something like a cannonhole on one of the shoulder, (similar to F-16 cannon, right above the LERX what they call "shoulder") and also I have to add some landing gear...

 

And there is a point I want to learn, now I have almost finished the concept, so what is next? should I texture it or is there anything to do first? (cabin interior and pilots' cabin are still pending by the way)