Grenades Overpowered?

[Voller]

Hi Everyone,

 

It recently occurred to me that grenades and explosives are so much more powerful in ufo2000 than in the old x-com. In the old days you could prime and throw _one_ grenade in one turn (and maybe take a step or two if you were lucky), whereas in ufo2000 you can prime and throw _two_ grenades during one turn.

I think that is quite a lot!

I'm not a great fan of the "blow everything up" tactic. In my opinion it doesn't have any style and isn't much fun. Being able to prime and throw two grenades in one round makes that tactic even easier. I'm sure I'm not the only one with that opinion out there.

 

So, why the overpowering of explosives in ufo2000?

 

Voller

[[Blehm 98]]

well, the only overpowered explosive is the high explosive. All the others are fine IMHO

[Sporb]

i remedied this in the ufo2k weaponset (current version is unreleased) by making Heavy explosives highly volatile (if you sneeze on them they go off!) and powerfull and by making smaller grenades like fraggles lower powered with a higher damage bias and more stable (IE if you get bombed your men wont explode like they will if your silly enough to pack em all with HE's)

[Jezulkim]

It's not the grenades that are overpowered, but the explosions they create. Look here: http://ufo2000.xcomufo.com/mantis/file_dow...id=147&type=bug. The upper images are from xcom the big image under them is ufo2000. Compare the far right xcom image with the ufo2000 one. See the difference?

[Voller]

sorry, my bad. With "overpowered" I mean that you can prime and throw two in one turn, which I think is just too much. Certainly if they are as devastating as in the picture Jezulkim just posted.

I don't know much about the different types of grenades and their explosion power I'm afraid. Haven't actually played ufo2000 very often yet

 

I suppose there was a reason why grenades in ufo2000 were implemented taking so much less TUs than in xcom. I would like to know what that reason is so I can disagree

[Sporb]

i guess that falls to the whims of the weaposets developers. Though it might be hard coded - i havent messed with the LUAs in a while. Priming time would be a nice feature

 

EDIT: i just checked the LUA and i think reload time for a grenade controls the time taken to prime it. Thus, it lies soley with the weaponset developer to ballance grenades

Edited June 20, 2006 by Sporb

[frogfoot]

It's not the grenades that are overpowered, but the explosions they create. Look here: http://ufo2000.xcomufo.com/mantis/file_dow...id=147&type=bug. The upper images are from xcom the big image under them is ufo2000. Compare the far right xcom image with the ufo2000 one. See the difference?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've only recently started playing the game, but I do agree. Any explosion can level almost all the walls up to its maximum blast radius, which seems excessive when compared to the old xcom. It's especially unfortunate because, in games with a lot of points, and unless you're playing in a map with particularly tough walls, it's a cheap way to blow through cover willy-nilly.

[Sporb]

hobbes also mentioned this issue and i think he developed a patch for it - Try Xcom Modified weapons and if that fails, edit the LUA's to fix it. It pretty straight forward.

[Tain]

I don't think the normal grenades are too powerful at all. At least not explosion wise. Anyone who has played Terror From the Deep should be well accustomed to this kind of explosive power being tossed around like plastic beads at Mardi Gras. What IS a killer however, was already mentioned a few posts above. That is the ability to prime, move and throw the grenade all in one turn.

 

Also, as for the wall destruction problem with grenades, that is a big problem but i don't think its a grenade problem. Walls seem to be taken out by just about every type of explosive you can carry, thrown or fired, and its pretty silly.

Edited June 22, 2006 by Tain

[Oldtype]

What is the damage formula for grenades anyway?

Can you modify that formula in the weaponset too?

Does it get weaker with distance?

[[Blehm 98]]

i believe so but grenades always do damage to underarmor only, so that needs to be fixed

[Sporb]

the wall damage problem is due to the original Xcom mappage IIRC. We can tweak the amount of damage a wall can take now in the form of a value up to 256(?) but the Xcom maps are unaffected by it

[Blood Angel]

You can tell grenades are overpowered, because I usually field my ~20000 point team without grenades and I invariably lose.

[Voller]

I'm not sure if I understand the structure of the weapon sets LUA. For guns, there are two variables accuracy and time. For example

 

AddXcomItem {
       cost = 300,
       name = "HEAVY LASER",
       pInv = pck_image("$(xcom)/units/bigobs.pck", 6),
       pMap = pck_image("$(xcom)/units/floorob.pck", 6),
       health = 999,
       damage = 85,
       dDeviation = 100,
       importance = 12,
       width = 2,
       height = 3,
       pHeld = pck_image_set("$(xcom)/units/handob.pck", 16, 8),
       damageType = 3,
- - -> accuracy = {0, 50, 84},
- - -> time = {0, 33, 75},
       weight = 18,
       isGun = 1,
       minimapMark = 1,
       twoHanded = 1,
       sound = cat_sample("$(xcom)/sound/sound1.cat", 11) or cat_sample("$(xcom)/sound/sample2.cat", 11),
}

 

If I'm not mistaken, the last two entries of accuracy and time are snap and aimed shot respectively (as percentages). What is the first entry though? Is it the auto shot? In this case this would fit, because a heavy laser doesn't have and auto shot, but in other cases the first value corresponds neither to auto shot nor throwing. It is too low for either of the two. Also, why is there no such variable for grenades?

 

This is the code for the grenade

 

AddXcomItem {
       cost = 70,
       name = "GRENADE",
       pInv = pck_image("$(xcom)/units/bigobs.pck", 19),
       pMap = pck_image("$(xcom)/units/floorob.pck", 19),      
       health = 999,
       damage = 50,
       dDeviation = 50,
       exploRange = 5,
       smokeRange = 5,
       smokeTime = 2,
       importance = 1,
       width = 1,
       height = 1,
       pHeld = pck_image_set("$(xcom)/units/handob.pck", 120, 8),
       damageType = 2,
       isGrenade = 1,
       weight = 3,
}

 

If I'm not mistaken, there is nothing to set the throwing and priming time for a grenade. Has it been hard coded? The throwing time taken seems to be the same for any object.

 

 

Also, can anybody explain to me how to get tab spaces working? I had to replace them with spaces. Thanks

[Sporb]

the ufo2k weaponset has another variable named reload time. I wonder if its just a relic from a cut/paste long ago though - you could try adding it to asee what happens.

[Voller]

AFAIK the TUs for the grenade with the original and the ufo2000 weapon set are exactly the same

 

EDIT: reloadTime = 100 added to the grenade. Doesn't change a thing.

Edited June 25, 2006 by Voller

[Oldtype]

Also, can anybody explain to me how to get tab spaces working? I had to replace them with spaces. Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That depends on what text-editor you are using.

[Sporb]

AFAIK the TUs for the grenade with the original and the ufo2000 weapon set are exactly the same

 

EDIT: reloadTime = 100 added to the grenade. Doesn't change a thing.

 

I thought this might be the case, ill lodge a report on mantis. I like the idea of having to take longer to prime a big demo pack while a small frag might take less time.

 

Link to report

Edited June 25, 2006 by Sporb

[Voller]

That depends on what text-editor you are using.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, I meant here on the forum using the [ CODE ] tag. I copied straight from the file, but when I posted, all tabs were ignored and I had to change them into spaces.

 

Anybody know how exactly how the time and accuracy variables work? Why not use the following format:

 

accuracy = {Throw, Auto, Snap, Aimed},
time = {Throw, Auto, Snap, Aimed},

 

for guns and

 

accuracy = {Throw},
time = {Throw, Prime},

 

for grenades?

 

@Sporb: I like the idea. Maybe needing two turns for priming and deploying a demo pack would be good.

[Kratos]

Formula similar to guns for grenades...I like it. I for one do not like grenades being primed without a % rather than a fixed number, which really doesn't make sense compared to guns.

 

And the explosions, I hope everybody (developers) that explosion radius has been changed, meaning they are somewhat bigger than normal.

 

But bluntly, it truely is how a weaponset is developed under the owner. Having said that, default sets WILL eventually conform to the tactical purpose of ufo2k, not a owner's ideals.