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Snd - Issue #250 - Silabrate Set


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#1 LfO

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 04:05 PM

Working concept - Silibrate crawling and munching on something/someone.

Iteration 1

I don't have anything broken down to a repository level yet, so I'm just hosting it myself for review.

Edited by LfO, 17 July 2006 - 10:55 AM.

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#2 kafros

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 06:33 AM

The sound heard two times is a "hiss" or something burnt by lava?
Sounds interesting, go on :)

#3 LfO

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 10:47 AM

Yep - that's what I intend to be the physical attack - a crunchy "bite" sound, quickly followed by searing. I suppose if they bite inanimate objects, that'll be the only sound, but if they bite a human, imagine the same thing with a nice horrific scream played on top. I'll make sure and include that in future examples for this guy...
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#4 kafros

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 11:08 AM

Have you seen the concept and rendered model?
In case you haven't, there is one in the website's gallery :)

I think it shouldn't be a clear biting sound, but more or less a burning one. The silabrate is supposed to be a moving nuclear reactor, causing burns even from a distance

#5 LfO

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:10 AM

Yeah, the render combined with the CTD work on the Silibrate so far are what caused me to request this task - its a really cool concept.

I certainly agree that most of the damage these guys do will by from burning - but, they do seem to have mouths, and it seems reasonable that when they're feeling agressive, they would bite. That would cause them to get close enough to do MAJOR damage.

I'll try and put up another example when I get home tonight with the biting sounds quieter and the burning sounds louder, and you can compare them.
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#6 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 08:34 PM

Actually, it does not have a mouth, it attacks mainly by using heat and defensive spikes on its shell.

#7 LfO

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:03 PM

Actually, it does not have a mouth, it attacks mainly by using heat and defensive spikes on its shell.



The art files indicate that there's a mouth. Whether you call it that or not, there's a main aperture and a few smaller ones at the front of it. How else would it get sustenance?
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#8 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:13 PM

Hmmm, hadn't seen that render before (not strange since getting a render is obviously a painful process), our texts don't indicate a mouth, and I hadn't imagined it'd have one.

However, the Silabrate strikes me as a slow creature, not really keen on jumping at you and trying to bite you, I figure it'd try to use its heat or its spike to attack, what does Mad say?

#9 LfO

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:20 PM

Hmmm, hadn't seen that render before (not strange since getting a render is obviously a painful process), our texts don't indicate a mouth, and I hadn't imagined it'd have one.

However, the Silabrate strikes me as a slow creature, not really keen on jumping at you and trying to bite you, I figure it'd try to use its heat or its spike to attack, what does Mad say?


On closer inspection, there's reference to "stomas" in the Austopsy - here's a definition from Wiktionary:

stoma (plural: stomata)
(botany) One of the tiny pores in the epidermis of a leaf or stem through which gases and water vapor pass
A small opening in a membrane; a surgically constructed opening, especially one in the abdominal wall that permits the passage of waste after a colostomy or ileostomy
(zoology) A mouthlike opening, such as the oral cavity of a nematode
artificial anus
Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stoma"


The art and CTDs combined would seem to imply that it has one or more small mouthlike things in front.

Anyway, I certainly see what you mean about slow moving - but, if its too slow to bite, its to slow to spear someone with spikes. I think I'll try adding some more metalic sounds to the attack, and toning down the "bite" component - the resulting commotion should sound violent enough for an attack, but I'll make sure the clear focus is on the searing sound. I probably won't post a new version until tomorrow.
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#10 Mad

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:55 AM

I don't think silabrates are toooo fast moving. However, they were able to attack your soldiers in pretty well... I think to get a definitive answer to the speed (measured in TU) question you should approach Zombie.
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#11 kafros

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 04:21 AM

The Silabrate does have a stoma. We don't call it a mouth because it wasn't design to have a complete oral cavity. It just reaches an object, burns it and shallows it.

IIRC, the "original" Silabrate from EU was able to move ~8 tiles per turn, and most of the time fire was created at those tiles (which burned for about 2 turns).

I totally agree with LFO's approach

#12 LfO

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 08:51 PM

Alright - here's the next iteration. Everything is the same as before except for the changes discussed above.

Iteration 2

Edited by LfO, 17 July 2006 - 10:55 AM.

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#13 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 09:11 PM

I like it, awesome job, but when I hear it I cannot help but imagine boiling water being spilled, is that how's it intended to be?

#14 LfO

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 09:40 PM

That's actually one of the component sounds - well, not spilled, but there's boiling water and boiling oil (my house smelled wierd all day after recording this...), along with some other elements. My hope and expectation is that when you hear it in the context of the game, you'll just think "ouch."
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#15 kafros

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:12 AM

Better, although I visualize someone cooking :S

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:26 AM

That's actually one of the component sounds - well, not spilled, but there's boiling water and boiling oil (my house smelled wierd all day after recording this...), along with some other elements. My hope and expectation is that when you hear it in the context of the game, you'll just think "ouch."

I do think 'ouch', but just don't think it's the kind of 'ouch' I should be thinking of when seeing an Alien :)

#17 LfO

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 08:05 AM

Yeah, I'm hearing it too now (always helps to have fresh ears). I think the natural reverb/ambiance from the pan and stove make the source too obvious. I'll see what magic I can work with EQ, and maybe try to find some other sources...
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#18 red knight

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 08:33 AM

Will add to the assets SVN tomorrow when I come home.

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#19 LfO

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:28 PM

Iteration 3
I've spent a lot of time trying to find a "voice" for the Silibrates. The first non-crawling sound is now a wounded scream, then the bites, then two alternate death screams. I understand that, hypothetically, they might not actually scream (lacking mouths and all that), but I think its preferable to assert that they phonate through their stomas, than to just have them just quiet down (as they cool) when killed.

Let me know what you think of the revised bites.

Edited by LfO, 17 July 2006 - 10:57 AM.

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#20 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:35 PM

I think it still sounds too much like boiling water, and there is a sound also that makes me think of the noise wood makes when its on fire, dunno how to put it, but I don't think this is quite it yet.

Maybe make the burn noise (boiling water noise for now) sound a bit more like an acid burn? like the sound in the movie Aliens when the creatures blood hit the ground or a trooper.

#21 LfO

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 08:02 PM

Your ears don't lie - I added some burning wood - it didn't sound very good to me, either, but I figured I'd see what others thought.

I'm constrained to use sounds that I can record of find in the public domain, hence the familiar sounds. I'll just have to watch Aliens for homework, and think on it ;)
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#22 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 08:35 PM

I thought you sound people used synthesizers and other software to make your sounds, and use sound libraries, don't you?

#23 kafros

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 10:28 PM

Sometimes it's easier, sometimes it's not.
Nevertheless, it's supposed that "the real art of SFX recording" is... to record RL sounds, and change them in a nice way

#24 kelargo

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 08:30 AM

I've been using samples from the Freesound project...

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/

Pretty good sound samples that can be mangled, chopped and streched to your hearts content.
Lot of good stuff to play with. and no license restrictions!

Edited by kelargo, 14 July 2006 - 08:31 AM.


#25 LfO

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:17 AM

Azrael - the term "synthesizer" encompases a lot of components, but the original source of the sound in a synth (as opposed to a sampler) is typically a group of oscillators and a white noise generator. No matter what you do, the results are going to sound like a synthesizer. Its possible to approximate some non-musical sounds, but it would be prohibitively time consuming. Most modern synthesizers, though, incorporate some sampling, which basically means recordings of real-life sounds. They do some wild things to them, but the source is still RL. In any case, I don't have access to any synths that would be good for trying working on this kind of effect (for robotics and such, it would be a different story).

Before a few weeks ago, I had never done any SFX work, just music - so, I don't have any libraries. Most high-quality libraries seem to have restrictive liscensing, frequently including royalties. That's where I'm looking next for this task, though.


Kelargo - Thanks, I had seen this site before, but had forgotten about it. Unfortunately, after a couple of quick searches, I haven't found anything to aid my current dilema, but I'll look more later.
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#26 kelargo

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 11:59 AM

Kelargo - Thanks, I had seen this site before, but had forgotten about it. Unfortunately, after a couple of quick searches, I haven't found anything to aid my current dilema, but I'll look more later.


What kind of sound samples are you looking for?

Sometimes, the members of the Freesound board are able to sample something... they have a request area.
possibly worth submitting a request.. ?

ona different note... for anyone curious...
cSound is a pretty cool tool for sound synthesis... google mp3 csound and one can find whole compositions using that tool.

#27 LfO

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 12:31 PM

What kind of sound samples are you looking for?

Sometimes, the members of the Freesound board are able to sample something... they have a request area.
possibly worth submitting a request.. ?


Actually, I spoke too soon. After a bit more digging, I've found a number of potentially useful samples.
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#28 LfO

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 02:41 PM

Iteration 4

So, the last link I posted was the same as the one before it (I've since edited to fix) - and none of you called me out for not making any sense in my post (about the screaming and all that)!

Anyway, here's attempt #4.

After putting some thought into it, I have to disagree with your recommendation, Azrael. I just don't think that pursuing an acid burn concept is appropriate here. The actual damage the Silibrate is doing isn't alien at all - its just the effect of high temperatures, so I maintain that normal buring and searing sounds are most appropriate.

I think the problem before wasn't that the sounds were those you might hear in a kitchen, but the sound of the kitchen itself. With some help form kelargo's site, I think this will work.

While I'm happy with the sounds themselves, and both attack samples use the same base sounds, the way I incorporated them differs significantly - so, I'd like to know how you think the two compare. And, of course, the wound- and death-screams - those are kind of important too ;)

Edited by LfO, 24 July 2006 - 09:41 AM.

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#29 red knight

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:45 PM

I do agree that the acid is not working. Think of the silibrate attack as an explosion of heat by itself do not cause sound, it is the environment the one that reacts and make sounds... after that focus on the effort the alien has to do to expel all that heat through the exotermic caparace and mix them.

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#30 kelargo

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 06:28 PM

$0.02

The sample is around 35 seconds long...

Instead of one long linear collection of predetermined events.

I think it would be better to have the shorter samples of individual sounds, which get triggered by events in the game play, that represent the current actions and environment at that moment of game play.

Try to focus on single sounds that represent a specific event / action.

For example, dont mix Silabrate movement sounds with other body action sounds and background ambience ... as it would change depending on location and action.

PS are those cow-bells in the background?

#31 LfO

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 09:08 AM

Red Knight - what I've posted is not the result of pursuing the acid concept - it is intended to be precisely what you said - the surriounding things and people searing, plus the sound the alien makes in attacking.

Your statement makes me rethink the second part, though - that component is now the modified version of what had been intended as biting - I didn't think of the Silibrate deliberatley increasing its temperature, but that concept has potential - I'll explore.

Kelargo - what I've been posting are sequences of component sounds - kind of the audio equivalent of Concept Art, to make discussion here easier - refer to my Morlock sound set in the Asset repository, and this thread:
http://www.xcomufo.c...topic=242025594
for the intended end product. Sorry, no cowbells - just swords, rocks, and music stands being banged together.
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#32 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:01 AM

I like this one, definitely an improvement, however the burning wood noise still doesn't fit, IMHO, and there is a sound that sounds like metal being shaken, which also sticks out a little bit.

I like the death scream :D

#33 kelargo

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:37 AM

I like this one, definitely an improvement, however the burning wood noise still doesn't fit, IMHO, and there is a sound that sounds like metal being shaken, which also sticks out a little bit.

I like the death scream :D



I think I understand what you're aiming for... having a composite collection of sounds...
but I think the sounds that are not the Silabrate detract from hearing the Silibrate.

could you post just the Silibrate sounds? and not the sounds it induces?

maybe I'm off the mark on this?

#34 LfO

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 12:23 PM

Everything you hear is intended to be the silibrate. In my Sonar project, I'm developing groups of each type of sound seperated sepately - some movement samples, some attack samples, etc. When I'm ready to get feedback, I export some of each type of sound, then import them to a different project and put them in the "example" sequence I've been developing here - there are no non-Silibrate sounds present.
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#35 LfO

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 06:38 PM

Iteration 5

This time, its just attack samples, since they're the main subject of debate. I've completely gotten rid of most of the orignal "bite" crunching, and replaced with something along the lines of the deathscream.

I've also made further changes to the burning/searing sounds.

Let me know what you think.




EDIT: You know what? Lets have another:

Iteration 6

The "voice" is the same between iterations 5 and 6 - but 6 is more of a overhaul of the burning sounds.

Edited by LfO, 24 July 2006 - 09:43 AM.

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#36 red knight

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 08:55 PM

Mhhh sounds like burning oil... try the following:

Position the Silabrate in a Metal case, show us how it sounds.
Do the same with a Brick case, and then with natural environment dirt + vegetation (clean sounds)... then pair them with the attack scream (I like that one) with some blending (as called in graphics :) ).

I somehow knew the Silabrate was going to be tough, didnt though it would be that much...

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#37 LfO

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Posted 19 July 2006 - 06:54 PM

To "put a sound in a _______" isn't really a clear statement in audio-land. My best translation is to introduce the many echoes and reverberations (using a Reverb unit) that would be present in an enclosed space. The "brick" sample is basically just a standard "room" reverb setting, with fairly light processing. The "metal" sample is processed quite a bit more heavily (since its flat and non-pourous, metal wouldn't absorb sound nearly as efficiently, so it would just keep bouning around). I think the "metal" sample sounds pretty bad, but I'm very happy with the "dry" and "brick" versions.

Each sample is two attacks - the "burn" components are somewhat different - in my opinion, the first resembles more of a burning fuel pipe, the latter has a woodier sound. I prefer the first bite in each case. This component was present in Iteration 6, but I've turned it up.

I've also removed some more kithen-esque components.


Iteration 7:
Dry
Brick
Metal

Edited by LfO, 24 July 2006 - 09:45 AM.

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#38 red knight

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 09:02 AM

Lets put it this way, you are the Sound Engineer not me ;)

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#39 LfO

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 09:45 AM

I just wanted to clarify how I implemented your suggestion. What do you think of the results?
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#40 kafros

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 01:24 PM

I think Iteration 6 is "looking" at the right direction. :)
Iteration 7 sounds too ethereal.

Could you make #6 sound "darker" and "more alien" by adding some reverb?

#41 red knight

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:50 PM

I am commiting as we speak, my general appreciation on Iteration 7 is that it is cool, but the alien part is too low. However, you did a great job in Iteration 6 on the alien part in there... so I like the direction and with minor volume tweaks I think we can consider it done for the scope of an initial implementation of the Sound Effect for Silabrate.

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#42 LfO

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 08:42 PM

Sorry for the delay - I've directed most of my energy to Stackless Iteration 3 support recently. Here is Iteration 8:

Iteration 8

You may notice that there's only one "At Rest" sample, but its a long one. It probably seems kind of strange that I'm not adhering to the requirements that I wrote a few weeks ago - but, I've been working with FMOD designer, which I believe we will be using for Audio implementation, and it looks like this type of sound would be better implemented as a single long loop.

All of the previous examples I had posted included the At Rest sound. Now they're seperated out, so be aware that it will be played (fairly quietly) along with every other sample here.

I'm personally pleased with the current state of the Physical Attacks, but you all may think otherwise - let me know.

The Character sounds are new - they're primarily the "voice" of the silibrate sounding creepy, but there's a bit of the "bite" sounds I had initially used in the Physical Attack as well. I'm not sure if this helps or hurts the overall effect.

Finally, I'm least confident about the Panic sounds. I don't want to waste time on them if everyone else thinks they're fine, but I suspect I'll end up redoing or revising them.
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#43 kafros

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 09:26 AM

They all sound nice, very good work :).

Just an opinion: MAYBE the panic samples are too short and the death ones too long. The physical attacks are good.

#44 LfO

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 09:43 AM

Come to think of it, do terror species ever panic? I've never seen it happen...
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