? ART-Model Concepts

[Guest drewid]

In that case 500 polys is too high for in game weapons.

we should be aiming at <100 for the battlescape.

 

I thought the soldier in the background of the arming screen was going to be holding the weapons?

 

This is the trouble. It gets hard to judge without actually seeing the things at the right size and res. hmmm.

 

OK folks.

In Game guidelines for handguns:

<150 for small weapons

<300 for big rifles

<500 for huge guns with packpacks and beltfeeds.

these are rough guides only, use more if you have to, but less if you don't.

 

Pedia version. 1000 for simple things. 2000 for complex things.

 

Does that sound reasonable?

Edited May 24, 2003 by drewid

[Guest drewid]

Try again.

in-game socom at 140 polys.

Shrinking the texture can wait till we see it in game at high res so it's still the 256 one for now.

[mikker]

it sure looks real, low poly or not.

 

keep in mind that a granade can be timed, and lie on the ground for several turns. They do throw them, not only holding them in their hand like the socom.

 

 

BTW, will weapons be fully rendered when someone drops it?

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

I'm not a graphics person, so I just have a quick question: why the obsession about super-low poly counts? I mean, in Falcon4, each model is over 2000 or 3000 polys, and this is in a game from 1998 with a fully dynamic real-time campaign that runs smooth as heck on my decent comp.

 

Now, admittedly I'm talking outa my donkey, but why would a turn based, third person, modern game need to have such low poly counts?

 

I'm not looking for a fight! Just a nice answer before I get jumped on for asking this... It just seems for something we are all putting so much effort into, we might as well make it super pretty if possible. Like I said though, I have NO knowledge on this topic, so think of this as an innocent question!

 

Thanks,

Gold

[red knight]

Pedia version. 1000 for simple things. 2000 for complex things.

 

Does that sound reasonable?

15000 as a top level (use less if you can without losing quality) sounds rasonable for Pedia use... 900000 polygons at sustained 60 FPS.... I think GF2 can handle it, i couldnt find the Specs for it in NVidia (they are now with 4 Ti and FX) so if anyone has it i would appreciate it, just to know for sure the poly fill rate...

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[red knight]

must make sure I Post the pic.

Pretty nice renderer model. Just a suggestion, can you try to lower down the iron sights of the heavy plasma and took out the upper horn (¿?). Just to see how it looks in that way...

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[Deimos]

Hey -

 

I'm not a graphics person, so I just have a quick question: why the obsession about super-low poly counts?  I mean, in Falcon4, each model is over 2000 or 3000 polys, and this is in a game from 1998 with a fully dynamic real-time campaign that runs smooth as heck on my decent comp.

 

Now, admittedly I'm talking outa my donkey, but why would a turn based, third person, modern game need to have such low poly counts? 

 

I'm not looking for a fight!  Just a nice answer before I get jumped on for asking this...    It just seems for something we are all putting so much effort into, we might as well make it super pretty if possible.  Like I said though, I have NO knowledge on this topic, so think of this as an innocent question!

 

Thanks,

Gold

I've not seen a lot of falcon 4 but I'd guess that on average there aren't many models on screen at once.

 

In xenocide every thing in battlescape will be a 3d model. If you're looking at 140 polys for a gun, 60 for a single tree, 1500 for each operative (and there are 14 at a minimum of your guys) the transport craft will come in at around 2000-2500 polys, not even beginning to mention alien models, weapons, alien craft, plants, hay bales, buildings, fences and so on and so on.

 

Just for 14 soldiers and one weapon each you're looking at 22,960 polys. Then add in the extra thousands of polys for the rest of the models and add textures and hardware lighting effects and so on and you soon get some seriously high figures. All of which has to be at a high enough frame rate to fool the eye into believing it's seeing motion. Usually 60 frames per second. As you can imagine the numbers get mind numbingly high.

 

Obviously if we can reduce the amount of polys being shifted around it means less work for the gfx card to do and less for the processor to do, which means more time for ai and all the other resources that'll call on the proc and gfx card.

[Anglachel]

Pretty nice renderer model. Just a suggestion, can you try to lower down the iron sights of the heavy plasma and took out the upper horn (¿?). Just to see how it looks in that way...

 

Greetings

Red Knight

As you wish, here it is. It is the rifle. After someones comment about having 4 on the HWP so 2 for the rifle and 3 for the heavy would be better.

[Deimos]

Anglachel I've been playing around with your plasma rifle design as the way it is at the moment it's a little too conventional in its design. The iron sights, pistol grip/trigger and stock just seem too earth based for my liking and give the rifle a clunky feel to it.

 

With that in mind I've been playing around with streamlining the rifle. I've dropped the iron sights and conventional trigger assembly for a glovelike assembly which the alien/ operative puts their hand into to fire. The ironsights I feel are too old tech for such an advanced weapon so with that in mind it's been replaced with an advanced targetter. (Probably works as a part of the aliens psionics). I also think it might be a good idea to have the spikes on the front be a bit more stramlined as well maybe have them flow out from the body and come to a point at the front as they do now.

[demich]

hmm this targetter can be connected to aliens implant so there is no need of iron sights. But when humans adopt these weapon they must add iron sights and later when psi lab will be avaible they will have implants and their accuracy will rise . But if we really don't want to have ironsights we can make something like Apache targetting system.

[Anglachel]

I have already started on a design (kind of similar to yours) that incorperates that kind of glove thing. The problem I see with yours is that it would put too much stress on the holders wrists. I was going to put in the middle of the rifle and attach a strap that would go around the arm just below the elbow to help with stability. Believe me, easier said than done. Edited May 25, 2003 by Anglachel

[Deimos]

Don't worry too much about the 'real' strains and stresses that the rifle would incur. Remember that it's a piece of alien technology. The alien alloys may well be superlight or it would have micro antigrav generators in it to negate the weight.

 

Finally remember that the weapon is designed to be held in both hands. If weight were such an issue for holding single handed, modern day rifles wouldn't use a pistol grip as it puts a similar amount of pressure on the wrist but with even less support. Don't add anything that would make it recognisable as a human weapon as it goes against the style guide. Human tech should be instantly recognisable as such and alien weaponry should reflect the alien nature of it's origins.

[Breunor]

Also remember that a sectoid can handle a heavy plasma easily enough, so our soldiers can twirl them all over the place.

[GreatGold]

The ironsights I feel are too old tech for such an advanced weapon so with that in mind it's been replaced with an advanced targetter. (Probably works as a part of the aliens psionics).

Hey -

 

Just a quick thought on this. If this is the type of sighting system the aliens use, perhaps the psi-amp could copy the targeting systems general design. It would work wonders for the us creative text people, as it gives us a viable avenue of fluff text for psionic abilities, research, and human equipment. So for the graphics people, I guess what I'm asking is, could you put a few extra minutes into that aspect to tie things together (if we choose to do it this way)?

 

Thanks,

Gold

[Deimos]

Greatgold, I think that's an excellent idea. I did reply to your post in the creative text.

[Anglachel]

Someone said something about implants being used for the psychic abilities and connecting it to the targeting (I think someone mentioned before Deimos did here but I could be wrong). So here are two designs. The first one is what Deimos wanted to see.

[Anglachel]

If it is truly implants, my idea on this is like the Matrix. It really plugs-in to you. This way the scope feeds info to the holders brain and info about the holder is sent to the gun so the targeting system would compensate for different traits of the soldier. This could be like ancient alien fiber optics, the last use they have for laser like technology. You see in your mind what the scope sees.

Edited May 26, 2003 by Anglachel

[Breunor]

Perhaps the cable feeds up into a targetting reticle like that used in the apache helicopter. Of course, the weapon still has to point at the target, so I'm not sure how advanced the sights need to be. Once we get to the blaster launcher then the advanced stuff will be needed.

[Anglachel]

I was thinking of something like that, but I still don't know which way to go on this yet.

[Guest drewid]

I like the shape of the front handle, and the place you stick your hand in. That looks pretty wierd and alien, and i think its a better idea than having a standard stock.

 

maybe that means alien pistols are more like a glove with stuff built onto the back??

 

I also like the look of the targetting emmm thing.

The idea of having it plug into your head is a bit unpleasant, but it does stop recruits just picking them up and using them straight off before any research has been done.

 

Maybe the weapon acts like the smart gun in aliens and auto aims for what the wearer is looking at. but self compensates for range and other outdid influences.

Edited May 26, 2003 by drewid

[Breunor]

I think the aliens thing was just cameras for the command post, but the tracking system from predator fits that bill. The helmet had the laser sight and the weapon tracked it. But here the soldier is pointing the weapon, I can look one way and fire another with this weapon. The handles look cool though. You can say the alien weapon detects the fingerprint of the user to allow firing, and that's keyed prior to battle. So only after humans research and make their own can they use the weapon.

[Anglachel]

The idea of having it plug into your head is a bit unpleasant, but it does stop recruits just picking them up and using them straight off before any research has been done.

Frankly I wouldn't want it plugged into my head either. I was just throwing an idea out there in conjuction with the implant everyone is talking about for psionics (which sounds like bio-tech implants which do not sound to pleasant to me either, but I hate needles).

[LordT]

I'm I the only one that confuses that one with a stone? The texture is a little "rocky".

[Breunor]

Yeah, the texture is more of a placeholder since the sheen effect won't be texture based from what I hear.

[LordT]

Then I'm fine

[Breunor]

Here's a sample for the motion scanner. I figured the view screen would be textured on there. I could make it higher res for the xnet shots, and lower res for the battlescape. It's currently scaled to about 20 inches tall and long, 10 inches wide. Probably should be a little smaller. This could also be a single dish with the emitter sticking out of it, but the 2 dish version looks like it could scan 360 degrees better. Any comments or suggestions?

Edited May 27, 2003 by Breunor

[Anglachel]

I'm I the only one that confuses that one with a stone? The texture is a little "rocky".

It is a place holder like Breunor said. I only bother to texture cause somethings blend together when it is all grey, helps them stand out a little more.

 

I could apply the sheen like they want, but I am not sure how to get it to look like the bubble I made instead of that rainbow trout thing I posted in the sheen thread. So if I can figure out some way around a script problem in POV-Ray, I might get it to work, but so far their tech support has not responed to me and I am all by myself on this.

 

I am not very good when it comes to graphics. I am a pencil and charcoal (sp?) drawer myself. I really want to leave anything dealing with color to those who are at least average (unlike me).

[Breunor]

I'm playing with my first texture job, Deimos would be proud. Also learning how to use Photoshop in the process, so this is not anywhere near done. I was just happy to get the bevel look around the edge of the display.

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

To answer the psionics thing, I wrote up the Human Psionics Ability post a few days ago, didnt go to indepth with it, I aplogize if it confused anyone in terms of what models could be used for its conceptual implementation.

 

I do like the "hook into head idea", works wonderfully for explaining the question that is always asked: "Why can't I just pick it up and use it!!!". And if we have a seeable reason for this, its better than "because thats what the designers wanted!" responce... So Ithink we should go with it, if for no other reason than that.

 

In terms of the psionics, again, it is really useful and fits in perfectly, if you guys continue with the psionics mechanism...we can figure out the fluff writing etails of it later easily. Also, I was thinking that this mechanism could help with an over all alien "theme" to the weapons, to make them completerly distinguishable from human ones at a glance.

 

Gold

[Breunor]

Do all 3D apps let you apply the texture as a sphere map? I'm pretty green with this stuff so I don't know if that's a given feature or not. But I was playing with the texture for the scanner and set it to that, and it gave a sweet mirror effect as I panned around. With a complex texture, it looks like it's reflecting the surroundings very well. Looked nice IMO.

[Cubik]

I don't what program you are using, but 3DS MAX allows you to change the mapping options for every separate texture. Sphere enviroment map always gives that sweet chrome/mirror effect, so with a couple of separate enviroment maps, it is pretty easy to fake reflections.

[Deimos]

I'm playing with my first texture job, Deimos would be proud.   Also learning how to use Photoshop in the process, so this is not anywhere near done. I was just happy to get the bevel look around the edge of the display.

Heh, I'm proud of ya Bru

 

Actually the screen with the bevel looks as though it would have been tough. If you want any pointers on the old PS give me an IM. I've been using it for about 4-5 yrs. Before that I was stuck with coreldraw/paint, paintshop pro and various other paint programs.

 

Cubik IIRC Bruenor is using Milkshape for modelling. Which though not as advanced as 3dsmax, it doesn't cost anywhere near as much either.

[Breunor]

Here's the latest version with an updated texture. The dishes get an interesting effect with the angles and the texture, they look sort of fuzzy and transparent inside when you pan around them. The texture is a 128px square png. Same number of polys as before, 262 I think.

 

Thanks for the offer Deimos, I've got a couple questions still, what an aggravation using PS so far! I'm sure it's awesome once you know what you're doing. The display I was able to make using a bevel effect, and then filled in the center a different color. I was tempted to use a very faint button effect to give it a glassy look, more to play with there.

 

What's everybody's opinion of this design? It's about 15" tall, 10" wide, 16" long right now. Should I keep the dishes, make them smaller? What about the emitter? Make it shorter, wider, lose it? I think the whole thing needs to be smaller still, under 12" in each dimension to realistically fit into just 1 space in the arming screen. But I don't like the original design of a box and handle. Maybe a wire antennae like they use when tracking collared animals?

[Deimos]

It sort of reminds me of the the scanner the crew made up in Alien. I know it's a different style but it has that, this is a prototype look about it. Which is a good thing tm:)

[Breunor]

Here's some changes to make it smaller. It's now about 12" tall/long, 10" wide. Angled the dishes in some as well, 260 polys:

[mikker]

It looks nice Breunor.

 

 

I have had a few problems with the front "triangles" of the heavy laser. i think i have to make them front start again :crying:

 

 

They take about 150 polys, and they are really messed up.

[mikker]

forgot that i could inline! WOAH! What a blunder!

 

I have made this new pattern. Should i create a "hole" in the triangles so thay they go all the way though, or just extrude them in a little?

[mikker]

the pic. Edited May 28, 2003 by mikker

[mikker]

I am not good at attaching files >. Edited May 28, 2003 by mikker

[Breunor]

are these spikes at the end of the barrel, similar to the plasma weapons? If the pattern shown is for creating texture, just make it flat and use a pic for the effect.

[mikker]

No, i am thinking of more like deepen it, so it is more "inside", with a "negative extruding". My question is: Should i make it go all the way though?

 

 

Yes it is the one at the end.

Edited May 28, 2003 by mikker

[Breunor]

If you want an open look to the barrel, sort of like holes bored through it, I'd go all the way. I think it would take fewer polys than having recessed sections.

[mikker]

It sure made it look better!

[mikker]

Hmmm.....549 polys....how can i lower it......hmmm....

[demich]

hmmmm make cylinder 8 or 12 sided instead of 32-sided

[mikker]

I know were acturly doing it right now

 

 

I calculated it to be precise 500 when i'm done

[Cubik]

Or even better, make it six-sided. Then our guns will match.

[Cubik]

Rocket Launcher, as per order . Optimized to drewids' standard polygon limit, 304 polys:

[mikker]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/smaw.jpg

 

try making it longer, and add some of the SMAW to it. It looks nice acturly.

Edited May 29, 2003 by mikker

[Breunor]

It doesn't necessarily have to be longer just because the SMAW is, unless you were trying to duplicate the design exactly. It's very nice work, and will look great textured up. I'll add the screenshot to the assetlist.