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#1 A_dxman

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 09:03 PM

Somewhere between X-com 01 and X-com 03 a bright spark decided that it might be nice if you had 4 different types of labs in the game.

X-com 01 you just had labs.
X-com 03 you had Large and small Biological and physics labs.

Personally I think if you marry the two ideas then you could come up with something great!

I Thin Xenocide should have both large and small labs (simply meaning research is more efficient and therefore faster)
You should have:
Biological Ė Psi lab
Physics Ė weapon lab
If you think about it having a Biological Ė Psi lab makes sense, if you wanted to communicate with Aliens then you need Psi, cause they donít talk English like in Star Trekô
If you think even more (taking aspirin so you donít hurt you self) Physics and weapons donít necessarily come under the same banner but it would make sense to have a physicist trying to make a heavy plasma work.

#2 fux0r666

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 12:24 AM

In star trek I think they have a device called a universal translator...

Anything the labs develop would be cross disciplinary... In order to contain plasma, 4th state, ionized matter (chemistry) you need to find a way of keeping it off of the material of the user and the weapon, probably with magnetic fields (physics)...

My vote is to keep the lab the same and not to muck with where you draw the line between disciplines.

Biology has a high chemistry content, etc. I wouldn't say that you hier scientists in your budget, per se, but you budget a certain number of scientists in and higher them on a project basis, and the upkeep cost of the lab facility includes refitting it for various different experimental environments.

Edited by fux0r666, 24 August 2003 - 12:32 AM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#3 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 06:47 AM

I don't know, it worked well in Apoc, and each 1 had 2 stages, the normal and an advanced 1 that was as big as the hanger. Seemed fine 2 me IMO, breaks the research down nicely ( especially as I'd like 2 see new research paths, including new weapons etc. but thats v2.0 at least )

#4 Breunor

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 11:31 AM

I'm for keeping the original single lab type, but maybe adjusting how the research is done a little. Diminishing returns for tons of techs on one item, maybe having scientist limits but using research skill stats like apoc, something like that. Just take the lab and split it into 4 corners, and put a limit on how many researchers can fit in there to learn something. The more they do, the higher their skills become, allowing them to research the harder stuff later in the game without taking forever.

#5 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 11:40 AM

I think there should be an advanced lab 4 bigger items like the craft items, excluding Elerium, and 4 researching the bigger aliens. I'm also 4 advanced workshops 4 complicated stuff, dunno what, but it would stop the player rushing ahead with research too fast and make the earlier used 4 longer.

#6 mikker

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 01:13 PM

i'd go with the frag part.

EDIT: i think we can use normal size / big size. The larger one is more efficial then 4(?) small ones (would fill like that?), but be more expensive then 4(?) small ones.

Edited by mikker, 24 August 2003 - 01:20 PM.

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#7 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 01:15 PM

Personally, I think it should be kept like the original, I mean, it got hard to keep track of my biologists/physicists and it took up more space in the base for the different labs. And it would require the labs to be remodeled with bio crap and physics crap instead of general science crap.

Also, you don't need a adv workshop to build anything because you could just manufacture the parts and assemble them where they are required. For example, you make your new avenger's hullplates first, then merge them together in the hanger, then the powersources, hook them on in the hangar. You see where I am going here?

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 24 August 2003 - 01:28 PM.

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#8 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 01:34 PM

It wasn't about hwo big they are in Apoc, it was about how advanced they are, and how u need more space 2 do it and bigger tools that simply don't fit into the small type. Fair play about the seperate Bio and Physics labs tho. I like Mikker's take on it also.

#9 Breunor

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 08:41 AM

Rather than require a different lab or workshop then, why not require the lab or workshop be upgraded at some point then? I agree that the craft are assembled in the hangar, that's why you have to have a hanger available when you start making one.

Say once you reach a certain point you have to upgrade, this could happen twice during the game. It would stop research/building while it's being done, cost a chunk of cash and increase teh maintenance costs for the fancier gear. I'm not much of a fan of making larger versions of facilities to make them more efficient, even if the cost is higher. But that's just my opinion.

#10 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 08:45 AM

I agree with bruenor, space is always at a premium at my bases, so I think that it would be better to just upgrade your labs with better equipment as the game progresses.
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#11 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 08:47 AM

Yeah, but shouldn't there be a point where u need a bigger lab to get more equipment in?

#12 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 08:54 AM

Nope, who says you need bigger equipment? Or more equipment for that matter?

You can just have small, miniturized equipment so that it takes the same space as the old stuff, but can do more. Like comparing a 60's room computer to a modern desktop. Like that.
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#13 Breunor

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 09:00 AM

Exactly. The upgrades make newer tech smaller and more efficient than the existing stuff. It allows each tech to do more work, effectively increasing their work speed/skill.

#14 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 09:24 AM

Alright, fair enough, I just think there should be a bigger 1 with MORE equpment, not just better equipment. I seem 2 be in the majority here tho.

#15 A_dxman

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 08:08 PM

so what happenes if you what to reserch a battel ship and one, lets say the drive componant, is twice the size of you lab> the answere is simple, you build a bigger lab, or put it in the hanger bay and do you reserch there.

#16 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 08:34 PM

U don't actually need 2 build the craft in front of u 2 design it, and all the UFO pieces are quite small, being the Nav. Elerium, Power Supply and Alloy's

#17 Micah

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 10:26 PM

so what happenes if you what to reserch a battel ship and one, lets say the drive componant, is twice the size of you lab> the answere is simple, you build a bigger lab, or put it in the hanger bay and do you reserch there.

No, the answer is simpler than that. There will be no components in the game that are bigger than the capacity of the lab....

#18 j'ordos

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 11:40 AM

so what happenes if you what to reserch a battel ship and one, lets say the drive componant, is twice the size of you lab> the answere is simple, you build a bigger lab, or put it in the hanger bay and do you reserch there.

You never research a battleship, you interrogate an alien engineer/technician which gives you the info you need about the UFO. No problem there.
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#19 mikker

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:43 PM

...though it explains why you need 100 scientists...

...to drag the battleship into the research facility! :LOL:

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#20 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:01 PM

In Apoc, the advanced lab's weren't just bigger. They had better tools, and more of em. That's why they were better, and why u couldn't research some things. U didn't ave the tools needed 2 research it.

#21 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:08 PM

But, you could say that the labs' tools are upgraded as required, meaning that big labs are useless.
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#22 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:16 PM

I don't really care that much about this, so I'm gonna shut up after this. It's not about being upgraded, it's about having the right tools 4 the right job. As more complicated jobs are coming thru they need more tools. 2 ask an engineer of scientist 2 only have the tools they need at any 1 time on hand is plain crazy, as I dunno bout ne1 else but I like 2 know my tools, I won't use someone else's tools coz I am used 2 mine. I know a lot of other tradesmen that feel the same way.

#23 Breunor

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:24 PM

I understand the point, that making a psi amp or hull plating for the avenger requires different tools than those needed to make med kits and pistols. Having a seperate facility to handle "level 2 tech" lets you do that. Consider that 1 minute after you finish making 1 item in the shop, you can start working on another totally unrelated item. If realism is the key, then there should be a certain amount of time to resupply the shop, reprogram the CNC tools to be used and all that, when you're not producing anything.

I'm not knocking anybody's point, but there are several issues the game ignores related to this. The workshops appear to function like multiple assembly lines. You get 1 item at a time, but there's no beginning delay as the first part goes through all the steps, and then the rest are done a little quicker as the delay is only in the last step of the line.

Perhaps we should discuss "how" items are made or researched (since these are related IMO), and then determine how extra techs affect output or what limits/room sizes there should be. Does that make sense?

#24 fux0r666

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:38 PM

In the workshops I don't think anything is standardized and everything is built by hand by the engineers. This is why it takes so many engineer hours to built a single item of technology. This would also solve the problem of having to refit assembly line machines, etc.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#25 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 06:10 PM

Yeah, I was just giving a possible explination has 2 how u could ave 2 different classes of lab and workshop. And it really doesn't take long 2 build the respective items, a couple of days 4 an alien gun is far better than I would do, tho the future of the world ain't on my shoulders, just a nice overtime check :)

Ne wayz, gamplay b4 realism and all that, so if it is too complicated then we can explain around it easily enough. If it makes it we could explain 4 it now as well, so I don't think we ave 2 worry there.

The biggest problem I see is that a lot of milling would ave 2 be done, in the workshop as well since milling machines aren't small, and tho these can be computerised they take up a lot of space. And that's just 4 punching holes in metal.

If we do start goin down the route of how things are built we will paint ourselves in a corner methinks, since it is physically impossible 2 get a whole weapons research lab into a square, let alone the other equipment needed. And it is much the same 4 the workshop, we could probably blag something tho :)

#26 fux0r666

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 06:34 PM

Don't forget that there are multiple floors.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#27 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 06:44 PM

2 floors wouldn't help, firstly the ave 2 get the equipment up 2 the second floor, and it's not a good idea 2 have heavy machiery on a top floor as the vibrations of it being used would carry right thru and annoy the heck out of peeps. And 2 floors or not, there simply isn't enough space 2 manufacture weapons, craft items, exotic alien items and anything else u can think of. So maybe an explination isn't a good idea, as the idea of having it in such a compact space isn't feasable IMO.

#28 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:07 PM

Well, maby the second floor is thick and vibration proof.
And, it does not take that much to make a gun, just some machinest's tools, and some skill. Craft items are not so large that they cannot be made in a high tech garage either. Alien personal weapons wouldn't be that hard to manufacture in teh given space, as they are fairly small, so with the right equipment...
Xcom bases are underground, so you must use all available space because it is limited, unlike a surface facility.

The real question is: How do you fit fifty scientists into a lab? It is tiny on the battlescape!
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#29 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:23 PM

It's not so tiny anymore, and ave u been into a workshop b4? If we are goin 4 realism here, it is not easy 2 manufacture a regular rifle, sure it is possible I could POSSIBLY do it in my work if they were trained properly, but not in such a confined space. There simply isn't enough room 4 the equipment 2 go, and I seriously doubt they would put a heavy machine like a miller, which is about 3m long and 1m wide, upstairs. 4 starters they ave 2 get it up there, no mean feat these things weigh more than a car AFAIK.

Edit: And it's not the size, it's the complexity that worries me.

Edited by Jim69, 26 August 2003 - 07:23 PM.


#30 fux0r666

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:40 PM

It isn't really feasible to carve a hole in a mountain and build a town sized cavity and fill it full of military equipment and lab equipment, either. This is one of those things that doesn't have to be explained.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#31 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:50 PM

Yup, that's what I said a couple of posts ago. If we try 2 explain these things we are just gonna screw ourselves over, like u sad some things are best left unexplained.

#32 A_dxman

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 10:40 PM

but the US millitary DOES carve huge caverns in the sides of mountans and put LOTO of crap in side! Norad (did i spell that right?) is in the side of the mountan and there are huge facilites like that all over the world.
all of the US's ICBM's and tatical nukes are in underground places like that.
But i still think that you would need BIGGER labs / workshops to build things like tanks.
In the EU where their trying to build a fusion reactor the lab is the size of a small soccer pitch! and that just where their actualy building the reactor.
some particle accelerators are tubes twenty centrmeters across and like one hundred meters around!
what im saying is that modern technology (despite the fact it is getting smaller) is F***** huge at the moment if it wasn't that places like BPH gas processing plant (some 50 Km from where i live) wouldnt be ten stories tall (minus the venting towers) and taking up quite afew sqr. Km's)

#33 j'ordos

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 03:23 AM

Maybe they work with sub contractors? ^_^ The machine-intensive work is outsourced, but since the subcontractors never see the whole picture (assembly still happens in your base) they have no idea they're actually making weapons to fight the alien invasion.

Or there's just a huge manufacturing plant on top of your base, that serves as cover AND can produce anything you need :D
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#34 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 07:25 AM

Well, Xcom bases, are expensive, and you can't afford to hollow out a huge facility for your base until you are raking in the heavy plasmas.

And, technology is huge at the moment, but in ten years, facing the threat of an alien invasion, I think that they would give xcom the most efficient stuff possible.

Sub contractors are funny, but wouldn't they start wondering when the department of agriculture (or whatever organization xcom goes through to get its stuff) started buying large amounts of refractive lenses and laser cores?
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#35 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 02:35 PM

Why? Laser's aren't illigal, and if they were stupid enough 2 say they are a farmer then they deserve 2 be found out. Their equipment would probably get 2 them no questioned asked.

#36 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 03:10 PM

I was just using the dep. of argiculture as an example, but it would look odd if anything except medical/research facilities started buying laser parts in bulk... :D

Anyway, You are right Jim, I was just joking about the contractors anyway. Do we even need to explain this? I mean, who is going to wonder if you can't build a tank in the workshop? I didn't.
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#37 A_dxman

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:55 PM

Maby X-com is like the MIB.
you know, they have blank ID cards, they always say that they are some high up department of something.
like hackers, they bluff their way in to corprat structures, they just say "i'm part of (whatever compant), i have an order for 20'000 plexy glass lenses with a radius of 5mm."
just pay more an ppl dont ask questions.
The NSA in the US manafactures all its own electronic equipment, purchasing componants from big companies through 'littel' people.
who dont ask questions.

#38 fux0r666

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 07:00 PM

Where do scientists usually get their laser components? That's where xcom would get them

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#39 A_dxman

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 07:02 PM

dont most reserchers make their own, to their own specks?

Edited by A_dxman, 27 August 2003 - 07:06 PM.


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Posted 27 August 2003 - 07:27 PM

I'd imagine that they would draw up their specs. and get the lenses custom made. This wouldn't be anything unusual as I suspect there are a few companies dedicated to this.

#41 fux0r666

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 08:10 PM

The question was rhetorical. What I meant was that the get them the same way all scientists get them- and since everyone knows it's possible you don't need to fill in the blank.

Like, you don't have to explain the interceptor's airfoil or the permanent/temporary compression cavity phenomenon in bullet wounds in order to let gamers know that guns put holes in things. People know airplanes fly, guns shoot, the sky is up and scientists have access to lasers.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#42 Breunor

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 07:32 AM

We can just say xcom has a lifetime membership card to Radio Shack... whether xcom has hidden agents that go shopping for them or various government agencies provide contacts, it's assumed we have access to the raw materials to build what we need. I used to work at a braille printing house, and the press was several tons and made lots of noise in operation. It was on a second story, it just needed an I beam underneath for support. You could hear it running from half the building though. In an underground facility that has 1 meter of concrete and blast doors between facilities, you'd hear very little until you're standing right by the entrance. A CNC lathe that could create many of the milled parts takes a little over 1m by say 10m, depends on how long your metal stock is that you're feeding. It can mill gun barrels as easily as make nuts and bolts. We can make an advanced version that can create what ever parts are needed. A different program is loaded to mill parts for different things to build.

Should this get moved out to the lab forum for v1+?

#43 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 08:56 AM

Yes bruenor, this probably should be moved as it deals with changing the established xcom ufo formula.
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