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#1 mamutas

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 09:17 PM

I do not see any reasons why not to use the humanity's best friends to help protect the Earth? They could be used in the early game for searching and in the late game for taking those panicked commander to the prison. They should cost a little less than a unit (20K-30K or something), be much faster and braver.
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#2 GreatGold

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 09:36 PM

Hey -

Not a bad idea after I think about it a bit. It's very easy to balance...think about this:

They would take up a persons space, probably be a one time deal, cost money, and have no ranged attack.

The only plus would be finding that last alien or two. I guess the dog would act as a AI, taking ony the most basic direction from you. For instance, you click for it to go north. It goes north, but in a random path; once it smells (i dont know how this would be determined) an alien, it makes a beline in that direction. Maybe it makes it and attacks, most likely it gets hosed long before.

So, if you wanted to bring one along on a mission to ferret out that goddamn last alien that is running away from you and driving you nuts, why not!

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#3 hArk

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 11:22 PM

intresting a good way to find the one alien at the end

#4 Puasonen

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 11:36 PM

I can imagine myself curseing the dog because it stucks to some corner or runs in wrong directions :LOL:
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#5 Cubik

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 03:27 AM

Wow, great idea! This could solve the problem with, as been said, finding the last alien. The should also, as suggested, be used for general alien searching. They would die pretty quick though, so if we are going to implement some kind of cybernetics or DNA manipolation, you would have to include options to mess with the dog too.

#6 mikker

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 06:01 AM

poor doggy.


Yeah, like 10 HP, and quite a low bravory.

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#7 Crix Dorius

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 06:09 AM

"Search the grey !!! Search the grey !!! Good dog !!!"

That whould be cool... ^_^
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#8 c4t

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 09:29 AM

GREAT IDEA! these dogs would be highly trained though, so i would think they would have high bravory. LOL, "Lassy has panicked" that would suck <_<
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#9 Anglachel

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 10:22 AM

If we do this, what breed will be used? Would there be more than one? Do you get to pick what dog? Is the breed of dog based on the continent your base is at (ie. a base in the australia area would get the Australia Cattle Dog (heeler))?

If one dog is used, I vote for German Shephard as they are best looking dog, has good speed, and can be quite vicious (I think the breed was listed as the most dangerous at one time because it would bite without any warning). And if you have seen the movie K-9, I don't need to say anymore. (A dog that catches a pool ball in its mouth then breaks it in half is scary. Then it pins the bad guy to the wall by biting his nuts. :devillaugh: )

#10 GreatGold

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:43 AM

Hey -

I would suspect that the best breeds would be German Shepard, or Doberman Pincher. And I think they should be universal throughout the world...you would requisition them from the same place after all...

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#11 mamutas

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:00 PM

Or maybe some brand new breed? Xenoterrier? :)
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#12 hArk

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 01:10 AM

Just use the type of dog most commonly used in the police at the moment

#13 Cubik

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 01:17 AM

And in the Middle Ages they had horse armor, so why not.... dog armor! It would look absolutly ridiculos but I can the use for a bulletproof vest on the torso and hind quarter section.

#14 mikker

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 12:26 PM

Xenoterrier

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:devillaugh:


"Go get 'em boy!"

Edited by mikker, 04 June 2003 - 12:27 PM.

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#15 GreatGold

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 01:03 PM

LOL -

On a more serious note, this looks like an excellent canidate for v2. As it stands, its a well balanced idea.

Pros:
Find that bloody last alien.
If your really lucky, maybe even injure/spook him

Cons:
Most likely a one time deal
Cost less than a soilder, but thats still expensive for one shot
Takes up an operatives space
No ranged attack

Stats:
Fast as heck
Lots of TU's
Weak
Small attack value
High bravery

Sound about right anyone?
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#16 Raven Squad

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 02:25 PM

Dogs sounds great idea. Greatgold those look about right. Attack Damage value should be very low, cos it is compared to assault rifles and so on. Maybe some diffrent kind of damages, depending where dog has striken its teeth. Neck would cause great loss of blood and so on. Dogs reactions should be quite high. Dogs could also be harder to hit, cos they are smaller and more difficult to spot.

About Xenoterrier, it could be includet some kind of easteregg in v2 :) . Dont think that it would fit to the game any other way. Imo using real dog breeds would be better idea. Imo German Shephard would be most ideal.

About dogs armours, why dont we have robots in later game that would replace dogs. Or something like that, cos dogs wearing armour would look just silly. I could be wrong tho, if some Art deparment guru makes totally uber looking armor.
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#17 Puasonen

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 12:21 AM

Powerarmored dog would be cool. Dog with the o_O eye-armor :LOL: :LOL:
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#18 j'ordos

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 07:19 AM

:idea: Genetically engineered dogs which have Toxin-C glands (so when they bite they inject the poison like snakes)... :rock:
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#19 Cubik

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 11:51 AM

Heh, great minds think alike:

"They would die pretty quick though, so if we are going to implement some kind of cybernetics or DNA manipolation, you would have to include options to mess with the dog too. "

This is defenatly a exellent V.1+ idea. I would like people to use the word "sequel" instead of v1+ though, since the word sequel implies much more changes and changed storyline and timeframe.

Hmm, I'm starting to sound like a broken record, aren't I?

#20 dragon0085

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 03:52 PM

[SIZE=14]
Come on the dogs being bad? That wouldn't be cool at all. Have it at the start where they do have high TUs and Bravery also when they get close have their bite do some good damage.

Just think remember in the first, you could drop an alien with the pistol. I could pretty much garuentee that a trained dog bite would do more damage then a pistol, it would totaly crush your entire bone rendering it unuseable, maybe for a long time. Besides have them jump up and bite the throat. Ever play C and C red alert? One dog went crazy, that's what I like to see.

Dog Armor- not full armor but a torso guard would work and still look cool.

Progression- Have just trained dogs first,
then have mechanical attachments, i.e. infuse it with a side cannon or something.
Later have full andriod dogs.
Last have DNA with machinal attachments, not only would you have the benefit of machines on it (optical eyes and a cannon or something) but it would be alive and can still expericane stuff and get better stats.

This would keep the dog alongside the soldier for the entire game, progressing with the soldiers in the battle against the aliens.

Just how bad a$$ would it be if on your final mission you have your half machine half dog alongside you. Knowing you need not fear anything?

[I] As we were closing in on our drop zone, I looked at the neodog, it's head quickly snapped around to face me. I gazed at its eyes, they looked real enough, I swung my hand around in a circle, it watched for a little bit, it could see it's optical nerve focusing much like a camera. These dogs had the intelligence a little below an average human, that's not to say they are morons, quite the opposite, they are VERY good at what the do. I slowly reached my hand to pet it, it gave me a slight grin, it's metalic teeth gilltering in the light. To be honest it did look like a force to be reckoned with, I was just glad it was on our team...

Once outside we were met with light resistance, the dog took off, and I mean RAN one tried to shoot at it, but the dogs advanced circuitry easily accounted for the ballistics and it jumped to the side to avoid a shot. Before a sencond one could get fired the dog had already latched onto the aliens neck, it held on for less then a second before biting completely through, the alien lay decapitated and the dog advanced to the second one...

#21 Puasonen

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 05:32 PM

Yeah! That's what I'm talking about. Nice story by the way...

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#22 Deimos

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 10:33 PM

This is defenatly a exellent V.1+ idea. I would like people to use the word "sequel" instead of v1+ though, since the word sequel implies much more changes and changed storyline and timeframe.

I don't think sequel is the right term for +v1.0 as we won't be changing storyline and timeframe. We'll just be adding newer features to the v1.0 game.

#23 mikker

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Posted 07 June 2003 - 04:01 AM

LOL Nyyperoid, that would be another great smiley! :naughty:

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#24 Fred the Goat

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Posted 07 June 2003 - 05:42 PM

Progression- Have just trained dogs first,
then have mechanical attachments, i.e. infuse it with a side cannon or something.
  Later have full andriod dogs. 
Last have DNA with machinal attachments, not only would you have the benefit of machines on it (optical eyes and a cannon or something) but it would be alive and can still expericane stuff and get better stats.

Hmmm...not to dwell on a v.1+ idea before we've got v.1 even close to done, but the dogs are a good idea and therefore a good thing to think about.

First of all, dogs could be treated as miniature tanks, with a setup basically like dragon's talking about. Cyberdogs or whatever. The problem with this is if you have that, why not cybernetic enhancements for your guys? And that's just a little too far from the original. Much cooler IMO to have the small band of X-com guys relying on their wits, guts, and whatever equipment they can scrape off the fallen martians, than to have cybernetic warriors with laser eyes and braces. Not to diss braces, I had 'em too.

On the other hand, you can have dog armor, but that seems like a waste of good armor, unless you've got one badass dog. I think dogs should be a cheap thing you can buy that's about as useful in the beginning as it is in the end, something to help you out that isn't really essential to the game, like the Motion Scanner. Maybe add armor, but no cybernetic dire wolves.

#25 Puasonen

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 03:59 AM

LOL Nyyperoid, that would be another great smiley!  :naughty:

Yeah, "judge deadd" gave us a site where you can get some awesome smileys.. http://pages.prodigy.../pageindexa.htm

Well anyway..
I think the dog idea lost it's meaning long time ago. The purpose was only to find those last aliens, not to dodge heavy plasma bullets (like in a matrix-movie) and after that jump to mutons throat and kill it with one bite! :rock:
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#26 mikker

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 06:27 AM

certainly nice smileys there! hehe!


:alienoooh: Posted Image

I belive the dog could be used.

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#27 mikker

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 06:34 AM

If it would be like that, I'd bring only dogs to the missions, you said it would be cheaper than human so why not.. An avenger full of dogs would rule!  :rock:

Then we just have to do make dogs really really baad at something, like completely no psy resistence, and only melee attack (dogs with heavy plasma? perhaps the mech dogs, but they should be slower, and ekspensive to manifacture.)


And if only dogs are alive, you lose, because there are no humans left.

Edited by mikker, 08 June 2003 - 06:38 AM.

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#28 Puasonen

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 09:07 AM

And if only dogs are alive, you lose, because there are no humans left.

Yeah, flying an avenger would be hard to teach to dog. Even to a smartone ^_^
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#29 hArk

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 12:34 AM

Well what if the plane fly via remote control :blink:

#30 j'ordos

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 03:07 AM

Hehe, that could explain why you could abort the mission in UFO with just a tank left in the Skyranger without losing it! Allways made me wonder, for the manual clearly stated XCOM-soldiers piloted the craft...
Who needs those puny, weak, psi-susceptible humans when you can load up with euhhm puny, weak, but psi-resistant tanks :D (when not researching alien tech, nice to take out a sectoid base...)

Edited by j'ordos, 10 June 2003 - 03:07 AM.

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#31 Mariondeputy

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 08:49 AM

The dog breed that is quickly becoming the most popular for K-9 police units is the Belgian Malinois. It looks likes a German Shepard but they are a bit smaller and have a browner coat. They are much faster than a German Shephard, and are very hyper. Often times they are mistaken for German Shepards. The reason they are used now more than the GH's is because they don't seem to suffer from the chronic hip displatia problems that inherently affect a lot of German Shepards.

I think the idea is a great one, but I would disagree with a police dog having a low bravery rating. K-9's are absolutely fearless. I have seen K-9's attacked by the person who it was trying to catch and the physical contact tends to just get the dog worked up into a frenzy. I would think that the balancing act for a K-9 would be High Bravery, Very High TU's, a weak melee attack that would'nt do so much damage, but would prevent an alien from firing a weapon. And the abillity to lead an X-Com handler to an alien.

I also would vote against the idea of turning the dog into some cybernetic robot thing that can fire weapons. Thats what the tanks and HWP's are for. To properly balance the dog in the rest of the game their abillities should be limited to what a normal K-9 can do. You could even further the effect by having an alien have some kind of irrational fear of dogs. That would cause the alien to panic at a higher rate when the dog attacks or gets near them.

Here is website with some pictures of the Beligan Malinois Belgian Malinois K-9's

Also one more question I think everyone will enjoy thinking about.....

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A CHRYSALID TYPE ALIEN ATTACKS A K-9?? :D

Edited by Mariondeputy, 12 June 2003 - 08:59 AM.


#32 j'ordos

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 09:06 AM

Guess you mean "Mechelse Herder" :D "Belgian Malinois" come on! That's like saying German Berlin or something like that :D

Perhaps implants and cybernetics COULD (I'm emphasising could here) be researched and used when everything goes bad for the humans. I can imagine a lot of opposition against such technologies (in the game-world), but when you're about to lose, there might be enough support to allow such things...
So you would only get those things when doing VERY bad :crying:

Edited by j'ordos, 12 June 2003 - 09:07 AM.

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#33 GreatGold

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 09:18 AM

Hey -

I agree with MarionDeputy. I think its silly to upgrade the dogs. Like was already stated, there are already HWPs for the same purpose.

But after hearing all the discussion, I do like the idea of dogs overall. I think it would be pretty interesting to implement.

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#34 Fred the Goat

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 02:39 PM

...a weak melee attack that would'nt do so much damage, but would prevent an alien from firing a weapon.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A CHRYSALID TYPE ALIEN ATTACKS A K-9??  :D

Hehe...good question.

About the not firing thing - on a related note, melee weapons in the original didn't stop the other unit from attacking back with a rocket launcher, if they so chose. That's kinda unrealistic. Suicidal, first of all, but also just plain unrealistic. However, even in the first games, shooting a two handed weapon while you had something else in your other hand (such as a grenade, or psi amp, or whatever) reduced its accuracy. Perhaps we could just do the same thing with dogs/melee attacks. If someone's slicing parts of your body off, or biting your throat, you have a distinct penalty firing two handed weapons, or you have a penalty with one handed weapons and you can't fire two handed weapons, or something like that. That'd make some of the aliens a little more interesting to deal with, and suddenly the melee weapons and pistols would be a whole lot more useful.

#35 j'ordos

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 01:58 AM

And the aliens can bring THEIR little friends to play along, something like a drone in LSN maybe :D OK, now we're getting way out of line, but still, might be cool
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#36 warhamster

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 04:49 PM

Dogs in XCOM. That's a good logical idea. My vote goes for the mastiff. Big strong, and surprisingly agile.

Problem, dog lovers like me would hate to see our K9 buddies iced by a plasma rifle. Hope the SPCA doesn't have anything to say anything about it.

Chrysalids on dogs... now that's kinda sick.

Just take 4 tanks in an avenger and you still have space for two psi guys.



#37 Vindicator

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 08:38 PM

I completely support the idea that dogs would serve a useful purpose in the squads, but only as a scout. But I agree that there shouldn't be any cybernetic dogs or enhanced dogs or anything like that. Sniffing out the last alien would be a good enough purpose for a dog, since it does it automatically...although that's what I take it as...at best it should only "panic" aliens if they're being attacked by them, but if that's implimented then I suppose the X-Com squads should also panic when certain aliens come charging, i.e. the Reaper! I know I'll mess myself if one of those came charging my way!

:o <--- Reaper charging me

#38 chrisp_21

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 10:46 PM

I like the idea of putting dogs in X-Com, but not necesarily as a one time unit.
Also those of us that have dogs probably know that most breeds won't rush
headlong into danger. They could just bark in the direction of the nearest
enemy. Also since dogs have such good senses they could "see" farther than
other units or even sense an aliens location by hearing movement. It would be
cool to have a dog whose stats improved w/ experience just like soldiers. Say
your about to turn a corner to meet your death.. the dog could bark and warn
you that there's a sectoid ready to blast your head off.

Different K9 units tend to have their favourite breed. I would vote for
Labradour Retrievers myself. They are good at sensing danger and very loyal.

Dogs could also make good scouts w/ super fast movement and excellent sight
(especially at night).

#39 Puasonen

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:24 AM

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A CHRYSALID TYPE ALIEN ATTACKS A K-9??  :D

What if chryssalids couldn't attack dogs? Dogs could suck against everything except their power would be to stop chryssalids? They would be effective on snakeman terrorsites/alienbases/battleships.. And would be usefull quite a long time..
Of course those chryssalids were such idiots in original ufo defense that we won't be needing any help against them if they won't get smarter on xenocide..
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#40 Deimos

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 02:18 AM

Just to throw a spanner in the works here. You now that dogs have extremely sensitive senses, what if the aliens give off a smell or something that drives a dog beserk and they run off, that way you'll know which direction the alien is. Kind of like how miners used to use canaries.

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 06:47 AM

How would the dog know what they smell like. They shouldn't be able to find an alien unless there was an alien corpse of whatever race in the stores b4 u took off, so they could get a smell 4 em.

#42 Vindicator

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 11:57 AM

That's an interesting idea...maybe after you research an alien corpse the dog would be able to sense which aliens are where...if that's the case maybe dogs could have different stats than soldiers, stats that sniff out other aliens. If they put that into effect, everything could be like...5 or something like that and have the max 80 (these could be percentages, no dog is PERFECT at sniffing things out, they might need another sniff just to be sure) This way here people could train certain dogs for one race, or train a superdog and cry when it gets shot :crying:

#43 Deimos

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 02:56 PM

How would the dog know what they smell like. They shouldn't be able to find an alien unless there was an alien corpse of whatever race in the stores b4 u took off, so they could get a smell 4 em.

Picture the scene. you walk into a deserted building, it's quite dark and shadows lay heavy across the rubble in front of you. Shapes look exaggerated due to the way the shadows fall, not much is discernable other than random shapes. In the shafts of light dust gently floats and dances. The only thing that alerts your senses to the fact there is something wrong is the very pungent odour that makes your nose curl and eyes water. You have no reference for this smell but it sends a chill down your spine.

You don't need prior research to tell you that it's not a pleasant smell or that your best instincts are screaming at you to stay away. Neither would anyone else.

If you're brave enough you walk over to where the smell gets stronger you see a burnt and decaying alien body (you know it's alien as its like nothing you 've ever sen before), clearly it has been there for some time. Maggots have eaten away at parts of the body. Your instincts proved themselves right it wasn't pleasant.

Same would go for a dog only much more intense as they have much more sensitive olfactory glands than us.

Now imagine you have taken this dog with you on an operation where you are facing the unknown and the smell that these unknown forces give off, make the dog want to wretch in the same way that you would in the scenario above. Imagine that instead of making the dog want to wretch, the smell actually burns the olfactory glands of the dog. I don't know but if I were a dog I'd run away from the smell and I certainly wouldn't need any research to tell me to do so :D

Bottom line is that it wouldn't need to know what it was smelling to know that it's bad. But anyway as I said in my op it was just to throw a spanner in the works and not to be taken seriously. :)

#44 Mariondeputy

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 03:22 PM

I like the idea of putting dogs in X-Com, but not necesarily as a one time unit.
Also those of us that have dogs probably know that most breeds won't rush
headlong into danger. They could just bark in the direction of the nearest
enemy.  Also since dogs have such good senses they could "see" farther than
other units or even sense an aliens location by hearing movement.  It would be
cool to have a dog whose stats improved w/ experience just like soldiers.  Say
your about to turn a corner to meet your death.. the dog could bark and warn
you that there's a sectoid ready to blast your head off.

Different K9 units tend to have their favourite breed.  I would vote for
Labradour Retrievers myself.  They are good at sensing danger and very loyal.

Dogs could also make good scouts w/ super fast movement and excellent sight
(especially at night).

I would disagree with your assesment of a K-9 not wanting to rush into a dangerous situation. Police and Military K-9's are trained to enjoy tracking, chasing and attacking their targets. I can honestly say I have never seen a trained K-9 not want to chase and attack, they don't see it as dangerous. As far as the breed goes although Labrador's are used as tracking or drug/explosives detection, I have never seen one used as a bite dog. The breeds most commonly associated with bite dogs are Belgian Malinois, German Shephards, and the Rotteweiler. However Rotteweilers are rare for this type of work.

I like the idea of the dog not being able to track the alien until after a scientist has researched a corpse, or even a live alien for that matter. Gives it another good balancing act.

Oh and to answer my own question, I think it would be very cool to have the dog change into somesort of K-9 Zombie if it was attacked by a Chrysalid - that would be way cool!! :rock:

#45 chrisp_21

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:39 AM

Mariondeputy:

I stand corrected. I've been mostly exposed to the sniffing dogs and not what
you were mentioning.

:blink:

#46 Puck

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 12:20 PM

This is in reponce to the idea of replaceing the dog with a robot later in the game.

An equipment idea:

R.U.D.E

Remote.Unit.Demolitions.Equipment.

Basicly a remote control toy, with a little camera (very limited sight) and the ability to go BOOM when you find that cluster of Aliens. Maybe make it as powerful as a grenade and fairly expensive (2-3k)

Puck

#47 j'ordos

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 12:51 PM

Some sort of UAV like the Predator?
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#48 dragon0085

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:24 PM

Why on earth would we have the dogs bite do little damage? I can tell you for a fact a trained dog bite WILL do more damage then most gun shots (Ex-cluding shotguns, high powered weapons etc.)
What would the balacing point be you ask? The fact that they are MELEE fighters. Remember in the 1st the dog creatures, if you saw one, you concertared your fire on it, you knew it couldn't shoot you but just the fact next turn it would be right next to you biting your soldiers down.

And for cyborg humans not being cool? Ever see Universal slodier? Hahah they were pimp in there. Posted Image

#49 Fred the Goat

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 04:28 PM

And for cyborg humans not being cool?  Ever see Universal slodier?

Hehe, yeah and transformers are much more powerful when they merge into the megabot, but that doesn't make them cool.

Anyway, I think dogs should be kept low-key. I do like the idea of needing to research the corpse before they can sniff it. Maybe even better would be that dogs simply have to have experience with the smell. The first time they smell a sectoid, they bolt in the opposite direction - at least you know something's there. Then they get some experience from that encounter, or maybe they get experience automatically from having an alien body in the stores (you don't have to research a corpse to know what it smells like). Eventually they get to the point where they're pointing out cyberdisks. Hmm...maybe a leash is a good addition. Let it go and watch fido run, or keep a tight rein if you've got a good dog.

P.S. Dog bite v.s. assault rifle. We're not talking about Derringers and .22s here, these are the best weapons the world has to offer as of 1999, and they're STILL pitiful against the majority of the alien menace. Can a dog bite take out a brick wall?

#50 warhamster

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 10:44 PM

At the end of the day, K-9's in Xcom are more like tools more than units. Sort of like a moving motion detector that relies on smell rather than movement.

But they are like units because losing one takes a nip at your soldier's morale, right?

Edited by warhamster, 27 June 2003 - 05:10 PM.