Alien Characteristics

[j'ordos]

Well, here everyone can post their ideas about what different capabilities the different alien species should have.

I'd like every race to be capable in at least certain situations, maybe each one requiring different tactics. E.g., I liked the descripition of the Reaper in UFO in Xcom, saying they were particularly vulnerable to Incendiary ammo. They died just as easily by everything else, but maybe that can be expanded upon, saying those Reapers are really a lot tougher, and bringing in IC on them would really make a difference. So each race could possibly have a special resistance to one weapon, but a weakness to an other (or maybe only resistance but no weakness, HMMMMuton )

 

Anyway, ideas here please

Edited August 4, 2003 by j'ordos

[Guest Jim69]

Sectoids: All ammo has no penalty, coz they are woosies

Snakemen: Resistance- IC Weakness- Laser and Plasma

Muton: No weakness ( )

Cyberdisk: Strength: IC, HE, Plasma. Weakness- Laser

Can't think of ne other 1s.

[j'ordos]

Well, I've been thinking about it some more.

Sectoids: small, no/light armor, weak (maybe less chance to hit, but more chance for lethal hits if it's hit?), leaders/commanders have good psi capabilities. They have no particular resistance to any weapon type, but are most vulnerable to HE.

Cyberdisc: large, heavy armor and strong (maybe more chance to hit, but less chance of lethal hits when it's hit). Powerful weapon, if not very accurate at long ranges. Flying, mechanical. Special resistance to AP/HE/IC, weakness to Plasma.

Snakemen: Strong (I mean strong, not as Mutons, but still...), medium armor, fairly psi-resistant, but slow. Resistant to IC, no special weakness.

Chryssalid: Strong, heavy armor, very fast, very psi resistant. 1) only close combat but can leap high into the air, or 2) limited range for it's weapon, or 3) it is a flying unit, so it's not useless to flying units. No weakness, resistant to HE/IC

Floater (cyborged snakemen? if so, see Snakemen, but flying)

Reaper: Very strong and fast, light armor but resistance to AP/laser. Weakness to IC, hard to psi-control.

Muton: Very strong, heavy armor, low psi resistance (if psi-controller needs line-of-sight). Resistant to every weapon type except laser, but no special weakness.

Still Celatid or Silacoid? If so: flying, medium speed, very small (very hard to hit), immune to psi, Very high damage but very short range. Maybe damages equipment too? Resistant to laser and plasma, no weakness.

Ethereal: low hitpoints but extremely high armor, very psi-capable, even the lowest soldier. Flying. No resistances, weakness to AP.

Sectopod: high hitpoints, heavy armor, fast, very strong weapon, accurate. Weakness to laser, resistance to plasma

 

I tried to make every weapon type at least very good against one alien, and bad against another.

[mamutas]

Very good discussion! That kind of information is very valuable.

Could you make a table aliens/weapons and put some numbers in there showing percentage of the damage effect?

 

Something like that:

 

armor vs. weaons

unit stats

[j'ordos]

Like it's that easy

But I'll try some. Are the mean values of xcom soldier stats known? Does anyone have the values of stats of units from any previous xcom, maybe in an excel file?

[miceless]

No, but i did consider analysing the soldier stats at one point. Since its you that needs them, i wont bother.

[j'ordos]

It's not "I" who needs them, it's Project Xenocide as a whole. Now you wouldn't want to jeopardize that entire Project, because of some ridiculous feud you seem to have against me, now would you? :o

 

Edit: never mind, I found them... no thanks to you, Miceless :wink:

Edited August 5, 2003 by j'ordos

[mikker]

Cant you 2 nevet get along?

[mamutas]

i just remembered where i saw it. here, check Section 9.

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

Here it is, curtesy of The UN-official Strategy Guide

 

        Alien        Attack    Defend    Vulnerable

        -------------------------------------------------

        Celatid      Acid Spit  none    none

        Chryssalid HTH        none  IC, stun    *

        Cyberdisc    Plasma beam  AP, HE      none

        Ethereal  Psi,weapons  IC,stun  none

        Floater      weapons    none    none

        Muton        weapons        AP        psi

        Reaper    HTH        none        IC

        Sectoid      Psi,weapons none    none

        Sectopod  Energy beam  PL,HE    laser

        Silacoid  HTH            IC      HE

        Snakeman  weapons        IC        none

        Zombie    HTH  Psi,AP,Las,Pl,HE none      **

 

        HTH=hand to hand combat    IC =incendiary/fire

        AP =armor piercing      PL =plasma

        HE =high explosive      Las=laser

 

        Alien      : alien name

        Attack  : attack method

        Defend  : resistance to type(s) of attack

        Vulnerable : esp. vulnerable to type(s) of attack

 

        *  When Chryssalids succeeds in HTH attack, the subject

        attacked becomes a Zombie

        ** Zombie in a few turns becomes a Chryssalid.  If killed, the

        new Chryssalid hatches from the zombie IMMEDIATELY.

[Guest Jim69]

Hmm, I think nearly all the aliens should have a weakness IMO, tho others may disagree. We could definatly make some changes there...looks around...Erm, not me tho I'm crap at balancing things

[mamutas]

i would like to have some sort of armor/weapon matrix similar to one Warcraft 3 and Starcraft have. having that we can make some aliens vulnerable to some specific weapons and almost immune to other weapons. that will require some different tactics and not only 'tech up to plasma and blaster and blast them all away'. with new system, we can have some aliens 'immune' to plasma weapons, but vulnerable to lasers or bullets.

[j'ordos]

Yeah I'm working on it, but it's not that easy so it may take a while. I'm thinking of having 3 armor styles: light, medium, heavy; different weapons would do different amounts of damage to those: e.g. HE would be more effective against light armor, and AP more effective against heavy armor.

Damage types would be: normal (rifle, pistol), AP, HE, IC, laser, plasma, and a few close combat types, and maybe a separate type for Celatid and Silacoid.

 

Or would that stray too far from the original?

[Guest Jim69]

Yeah I'm working on it, but it's not that easy so it may take a while. I'm thinking of having 3 armor styles: light, medium, heavy; different weapons would do different amounts of damage to those: e.g. HE would be more effective against light armor, and AP more effective against heavy armor.

Damage types would be: normal (rifle, pistol), AP, HE, IC, laser, plasma, and a few close combat types, and maybe a separate type for Celatid and Silacoid.

 

Or would that stray too far from the original?

No, I don't think it will stray too far from the original, but I do think that it should be a little more advanced than 3 classes, coz then u have the prob mentioned above of no other weapon being useful part from BB and HP. I think every Alien should have a different combination of weaknesses, strengths and indiferences 2 the ammo type u have mentioned. It would actually bring the alien types slightly more polarised ( is that the word I mean???) from each other and make all the ammo types useful throughout the game.

 

Edit: Typo

Edited August 6, 2003 by Jim69

[j'ordos]

Wait, let me expand upon my previous post: I ment there would be three armor classes, and armorclass would have a certain weakness and resistance on its own. But besides that, each alien would have different properties as of what they resist and what they don't resist. But as I said, I'm still working on it, so you probably should ignore all this as it's prone to change.

 

Edit: hints, suggestions or ideas are as always graciously accepted however

Edited August 6, 2003 by j'ordos

[Guest Jim69]

Hmm, interesting, are u suggesting that the Aliens are gonna have 3 different armour classes, or are u talking about X-Corps? If u are talking about the Aliens then that is a great idea, I'd never even considered it b4. Imagine the Mutons in a Heavy armour :o

 

Edit: Read post, and u r suggesting that, stupid me

Edited August 6, 2003 by Jim69

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

Xenocide Damage types, as per the Xenocide Design Doc.

 

4.1 Damage types [properties] {damage assignment formula}

4.1.1 Explosive [damage transfers between levels with distribution through a sphere] {to be added when known}

4.1.2 Armor piercing [damage type reducing effectiveness of armor] {to be added when known}

4.1.3 Energy [self replenishing, higher damage to personnel] {to be added when known}

4.1.4 Splash [spreads damage over limited area] {to be added when known}

 

-The Captain

[jwj442]

I don't really see the point in having both armor classes AND individual resistances for each alien, seems like it just makes makes things more complicated. Here are my suggestions for other attributes of aliens, besides weapon resistances and weaknesses:

 

Sectoid - have high psi resistance, though only leaders can use psi attacks. When a leader is around, the sectoids all get a 10%-20% stat boost, because its psi capabilities help them fight more efficiently. With a leader, they are extremely intelligent, and their intelligence is good even without one.

 

Snakeman - Nothing special, just a solid and fairly tough soldier. Probably the most "average" out of all the aliens.

 

Ethereal - AWESOME psi capabilities, immune to psi. Leaders give a big stat boost to all aliens of all types, and a very large increase in intelligence.

 

Muton - Super tough, very dangerous, vulnerable to psi. Intelligence varies a lot, a Muton can be pretty dumb or quite smart.

 

Floater - Average armor and poor HP, very fast, and not that accurate. They take advantage of their flying a lot by getting on top of buildings, and they also like to throw grenades down from above. Also, due to their flight, they're harder to hit than most. Floaters are the only alien species that specifically tries to hit leaders of your squad.

 

Cyberdisc - Immune to psi (duh.) Slow and short-ranged, but great armor and great HP, plus very good aim.

 

Chrysallid - Not that much HP, but lots of armor. They do the zombie thing of course.

 

Reaper - These guys need to be at least 2 or 3 times harder to kill than in X-COM. They are extremely powerful, but rather stupid. They just always charge straight forward, usually in packs.

 

I don't really remember much about celatids, silacoids, or sectopods.

[Guest Jim69]

Ur opinion I spose, 2 me it adds a new lvl of difficulty as the armour doesn't always stop the shot, it's a percentage chance that it does. So, odds are that a flame attack is gonna hurt a Sectoid, but there are no guarantees.

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

I like the armor idea as well. It adds a nice bit of complexity beyond the simple "X is vulnerable to Y" strategy. For example, Sectopods may be vulnerable to lasers, but they're still tough buggers (heavy armor). On the other hand, given 'strong vs. Plasma' plus heavy armor makes them effectively immune to those Hvy. plasmas all your guys are carrying.

 

I also think that we should try to avoid the 'everything has strong/weak points' idea. It's a little too easy then: "oh, this is sectoids, better load up on AP ammo. Oh this time it's snakemen, break out the IC".

 

I do think that we should make more things strong vs. Plasma though, just to keep other weapons in the game.

 

These advantages (armor/str/weak) could also scale depending on dificulty. So on 'Easy', a Cyberdisc has Medium Armor and weak vs. explosive, on 'Hard' is has Med Armor plus Str vs. AP, and on Superhuman, it has Heavy Armor, Str vs AP and str vs. Laser.

 

-The Captain

[j'ordos]

Well, I've thought up a basic armor class table (well, at least a start)

Light armor:

*reduced damage from AP, -30%, and from Acid Spit -20%

*increased damage from HE and IC, both +30%

Medium armor:

*basically middle-of-the-road armor, no special resistances, but 5% more damage from Acid Spit

Heavy Armor:

*reduced damage from both HE and IC, -30%

*increased damage from AP +30%, and Acid Spit +30%

 

this would mean a soldier in heavy armor would recieve 50% more damage from an acid spit than one in light armor (to make Celatid more useful, I'm still having more plans for that one )

 

I was thinking these classes would be applicable on both aliens and Xcom (for xcom: starting armor would classify as 'light', personal as 'medium' and power/flying as 'heavy')

But maybe we need one for the aliens and one for the humans, as I had originally thought up a more 'expanded' table, including plasma and laser. But since the aliens use plasma 90% of the time it's not easy to include armor with plasma resistance/weakness. Or that just has to be an alien trait, not armor.

Edited August 7, 2003 by j'ordos

[j'ordos]

I've expanded upon my previous post with an example from one race: Snakemen (sssseeing asss I'm working on them now )

As a whole, the snakemen would have a resistance to IC-based weapons, -50% damage from them, and a weakness to AP, +20% damage from those.

Now, Snakemen soldiers would wear heavy armor, navigators, medics and engineers medium and leaders or commanders light.

Now, by adding these numbers to those from the armor types (see previous post), you'd get something like this:

Soldiers: weakness to AP: 20%(own) +30% (armor) = +50% damage from AP, resistance to IC: -50%-30% = -80% damage from IC, and -30% damage from HE

medics/navigators/engineers: weakness to AP: 20%, resistance to IC: 50%

leaders and commanders: weakness to HE: 30%, resistance to AP: -20% own weakness +30% resistance from armor= 10% less damage from AP, resistance to IC 50%-30% from armor = 20% less damage from AP.

 

So a snakeman does not automatically mean: load up on AP (but loading up on IC does seem like a bad idea )

This would be double fun if you couldn't see what rank you're dealing with, unless you have a mind probe (which should be available pretty soon then)

Edited August 7, 2003 by j'ordos

[Guest Jim69]

I'd say soliders should wear med armour, and commander should have heavy.

[j'ordos]

I'd say soldiers do the fighting, NOT commanders, don't you agree?

[Guest Jim69]

True, I'd say if I was the Commander I'd want 2 have the best armour, wouldn't u? IMO the soldiers wouldn't get more cash spent on their armour than the commanders, they are the most valuble of all the races and having them with some pussy armour isn't a good career move I could be in the minority

[j'ordos]

Well, heavy armor is not necessarily the 'best' armor, it has different weaknesses and strengths than light and medium (although it has more strengths and less weaknesses than light). But I was thinking of disconnecting armor type with actual armor value. So a Snakeman commander could have more armor points than a soldier, but due to it's more advanced construction it would classify as 'light' armor.

[Guest Jim69]

Not sure what u mean. R u classifying the armour types on weight? Seems kinda pointless since it is comman knowledge that in games Light armour is always the weakest, and Heavy is always the strongest, usually the slowest. That is why I said med for fighters, medium protection and good mobility, whereas the commander mostly stays in the ship so mobility isn't a problem. Edited August 7, 2003 by Jim69

[j'ordos]

No, it wouldn't be based on weight. The thing is, those names are actually just a denominator for the different types of armor. Maybe I'd better change the names to something else, and I could add some more types maybe. The point is: every armor type has different protection values for different weapon types, but the actual armor value has nothing to do with it. So that Snakeman Commander could have a light armor (protecting against AP, but not against HE and IC), that has an armor value of 50, whereas that Snakeman Soldier has heavy armor for protection against HE and IC, but not against AP, with an armor value of only 30.

So 'light' and 'heavy' where just names I gave them. Originally I had something else in mind, but gradually my ideas changed but the names didn't change with them. Sorry, my mistake :Blush:

 

Edit: also, I was thinking every race would have different regards to armor. So while some races would put emphasis on protecting their leaders, others could be protecting their soldiers better, since they would do most of the fighting. Higher ranking aliens would still have better stats than common soldiers though.

Edited August 7, 2003 by j'ordos

[Guest Jim69]

I think races that are very provocative and aggresive should have their Commander's reflect this and join in the battle a little more. Maybe they'd only wear the same as Soldiers? I was actually thinking back to medieval times, the nobelmen were the Knights, and they were the ones on top of a bloody great big horse wearing ( almost ) as much armour as an American Footballer ::

 

Seriously tho, it would probably depend on the character of the race, like u suggested, but I think some commanders, like Mutons, should be much more involved, whereas others, like Sectoids, should be complete cowards and keep well away from the main action unless cornered. Or maybe just hang way back in the wings.

[j'ordos]

Indeed, that's what I meant. I was going to give Muton commanders heavy stuff (well, I was going to give ALL Mutons heavy stuff ), and Sectoids all light, but these are only basic proposals, so if there need to be changes that's easy.

But maybe that armor stuff is getting too complicated, although it would be cool to have not every alien of the same race be susceptible to the same weapons...

[Guest Jim69]

No, I think it is just me making it complicated, I misunderstood most of what u have said Most peeps don't even have 2 know about what armour names are in the game, as long as they look slightly different, are rank specific and actually effect the game.

[jwj442]

Actually, I think it would be better just to have individual alien resistances. Heavy-medium-light AND weapon type stats for each type of alien is making things a little too complicated IMO. I'd like the armor of an alien to be a number that reduces damage by a certain amount. Edited August 7, 2003 by jwj442

[Guest Jim69]

How about this:Start out with no armor. Personal armor is light, powersuit is medium, and flying suit is heavy.

This is 4 the aliens, not the humans

[jwj442]

I was thinking these classes would be applicable on both aliens and Xcom (for xcom: starting armor would classify as 'light', personal as 'medium' and power/flying as 'heavy')

No, it's for both aliens and humans.

[mamutas]

I think it is a bit too complicated.

I suggest that aliens do not have any armor (as they do in the original game), but instead different species will have different resistance to different weapons. That basically means, if alien is a sectoid, it has same chances to die whether it is a soldier or a commander.

 

If we are going to bring in the different armor, than we need a visual distinguishing between them. It is much of a hussle to use a mind probe on each alien and then wait for your guy with right weapon to arrive.

 

Human different armors already have different resistance to damage, so I don't think we need to invent something here.

 

I would vote to keep it simple.

[j'ordos]

Ok then. I thought it would add some more variety and difficulty, but I agree it could become too complicated easily. Still might be for v1+ though

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

I think what he's sugesting is more of a behind the scenes thing. The actual images of the aliens won't look different, nor will there be 'alien armor' to research or anything like that. This is just a way to make the strength/weaknesses a little easier to deal with, and more variety within a particular race. I think people are stuck on the name (light/medium/heavy) and picturing this as physical armor.

 

Try thinking of it as 'categories of protection' rather than armor. A leader has different defensive characteristics(not just higher, but different) than a soldier, and a soldier is different from a medic.

 

-The Captain

[Guest Jim69]

That's kinda what I thought, that's why I was saying 2 things: 1 that this is a discussion purely about alien armour and will be unrelated to human armour IMO, and 2. That the important officers and fighting units should get heavier armour types. I also agree there shouldn't B any graphical changes, it should just be that some ranks are harder 2 kill and stun than others.

 

J'Ordos, the way it's going at the mo it's gonna confuse a lot of peeps. Here's how I suggest keeping ur ideas, coz I do like em, and making it understandable so noone is confused and everyone can help discuss.

 

Take it a race at a time. Post all the alien race's ranks and what u think it's resistance and strengths are, and we'll discuss it 1 at a time. Dunno bout u but I find it easier 2 do in bite size chunks

[red knight]

I vote keep it simple for the first release, however that topic should be put in the list of things to consider after V1... I would like to fight against a Sectoid in a power armor kind of exoskeleton.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[j'ordos]

Well, cpt Boxershorts pretty much hits the spot: I meant it to be behind the scenes mostly, maybe when you research 'em it shows the particular resistances for the different ranks. My main purpose with that was to avoid players from having enough with one type of weapon per alien race. "Oh snakemen, better load up on AP..., oh now it's Sectoids, where's that IC..." With different resistance/weakness per race, it allows for more variety. But I could leave it alone for a while and work only on the alien races themselves, without subdivisions in ranks for now. Edited August 8, 2003 by j'ordos

[mamutas]

Yes, I like this approach better.

Define the race in general first, then it will be easier to increase/decrease some specific numbers depending on the rank.

Do the aliens only, do not mess with human so far.

 

On a side note: thanks for doing that.

[Jesus Escariut]

okay here is my take on this...

 

the aliens with resistance and stuff makes sense, the idea of having alien armor i think is more of a v1.0+ idea, i think the armor should be visible and even able to be researched perhaps it lets us do an upgrade to our armor?

 

as far as how the aliens would respond in battle, i could picture a muton commander charging in ahead of his troops like a barbarian. pehaps you could have it coded where certain aliens prefeer to used shadows?

[j'ordos]

There ARE no muton commanders... in the original (we could change that of course )

On a side note: thanks for doing that. 

What? Sticking to races only for now? Making life easier for ya?

Edited August 8, 2003 by j'ordos

[mamutas]

On a side note: thanks for doing that. 

What? Sticking to races only for now? Making life easier for ya?

Doing that whole thing: research, table, thinking...

 

Umm, yeah, I guess 'making life easier for me' applies too.

[j'ordos]

Ok, here's an excel file, in which I ordened the various weaknesses/resistances... of the various races into a table. It's only an ordinal scale for now, with 4 categories, but just because 2 races are vulnerable to psi does not mean they're equally vulnerable, they're just vulnerable compared to the other races.

Any comments on things you think HAVE to change, or you think are absolutely wrong or unbalancing... spit them out

 

On a side note: I was planning to make Celatid/Silacoid actually a minor threat in terms of damage potential, but very hard to kill so they still would be a threat. And I think every soldier should have a combat knife to it's disposal (no extra equipment, just 'included', that wouldn't do much damage, except to some creatures vulnerable to it... And maybe upgradable to some sort of Thermic Lance or whatever. And, looking at the concept for the Chryssalid, I had an idea of making it useful even when all your men have flying suits: it has needles with a paralysing toxin (stun) that can be fired (like a Hydralisk ). Soldiers hit with it would fall to the ground, where the Chrysallid can infect them (we make them able to infect stunned humans, don't we? )

 

Anyway, that's all for now. Happy shredding

 

Edit: Hmm, seems I forgot to attach the file

Edit2: I did not forget!!! It won't attach here?!

Edit3: I uploaded it to the Xenocide FTP-server, and put up a link here

Edit4: OK, now it should work: here

Edited August 8, 2003 by j'ordos

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

What is 'scorch' as an attack?

 

To link to the xenocide ftp, use "http://www.projectxenocide.com/public/", and then whatever directory path.

 

-The Captain

[j'ordos]

What is 'scorch' as an attack?

Since the Silacoid is built around a hot inner core, I'd think it'd have some kind of heat-based attack: only close combat, but able to destroy armor at a fast rate, so if you let them get close they'll burn your armor away. Don't know if that's for V1 though, just an idea. It certainly would be interesting though

 

Acid Spit would cause equipment to melt... as I said, just ideas.

Edited August 8, 2003 by j'ordos

[mamutas]

Why do you have alien type of attack effect on alien listed?

[j'ordos]

Why do you have alien type of attack effect on alien listed?

You can mind control aliens can't you? And if they are, their former buddies will try and shoot them too

[mamutas]

Ahh! That make sense. Thanks for explanation.