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CTD - NEUDARs (Short and Large Range)


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#1 SupSuper

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Posted 24 October 2003 - 02:44 PM

This is what I came up with for the CTD of the Small Radar System facility, based on what I knew, what I could come up with and random hints & tips. Some stuff may need to be redefined since my english isn't very good on science stuff but I suppose you'll correct me if necessary.

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#2 Ancalagon

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Posted 25 October 2003 - 02:26 AM

Come on! you can do better than that!
line 1: Using the word "any" implies "all", and since the small radar does not detect all nearby UFOs, it is an inappropriate term to use. Do not use the word any.

line 2: My second complaint is that even though x-com bases are located underground, they are not located deep underground (5 meters is not usually considered "deep" when it comes to building underground facilities). Also, that sentance is a little bit long, I would change it to "Since x-corps bases are located underground, the radar system had to be perfected so that it could scan 'through' the ground over the base without any sort of interference or jamming." The rest of the sentance was unneeded and I already knew what you meant before I read it. The next sentance after that would sound a lot more interesting if you said "The Radar system is secretly linked to multiple satellites and satellite networks which provide both ground imaging to locate landed and crashed UFO's, and weather information for x-corps interceptor and skyranger flights, which do not use conventional air traffic control."

line 3: You might want to change "radar" to "radar array".

Edit: I simplified it.

Edit: After these changes are implemented, I'll be pretty happy with it ^_^ .

Edited by Ancalagon, 25 October 2003 - 03:01 AM.


#3 SupSuper

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 12:17 PM

Come on! you can do better than that!
line 1: Using the word "any" implies "all", and since the small radar does not detect all nearby UFOs, it is an inappropriate term to use. Do not use the word any.

line 2: My second complaint is that even though x-com bases are located underground, they are not located deep underground (5 meters is not usually considered "deep" when it comes to building underground facilities). Also, that sentance is a little bit long, I would change it to "Since x-corps bases are located underground, the radar system had to be perfected so that it could scan 'through' the ground over the base without any sort of interference or jamming." The rest of the sentance was unneeded and I already knew what you meant before I read it. The next sentance after that would sound a lot more interesting if you said "The Radar system is secretly linked to multiple satellites and satellite networks which provide both ground imaging to locate landed and crashed UFO's, and weather information for x-corps interceptor and skyranger flights, which do not use conventional air traffic control."

line 3: You might want to change "radar"  to "radar array".

Edit: I simplified it.

Edit: After these changes are implemented, I'll be pretty happy with it ^_^ .

right, i'll do those changes and try to spruce it up some more.
although i thought the Small Radar System only had one radar, not a radar array.

too bad, now you will never know the ancient secrets of supsupers long gone avatar ;)

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#4 mikker

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 02:48 PM

hmmm...seams tooo......normal...

why not try something along the lines:

"This facility is the second version of small radar device in x-corps. The first one was found to be unable to detect most UFO at all. And it could only see the ones small enough for not to have any stealth device. But scientists have developed a new type of radar: SDR whitch stands for Solar Detection Radar. The SDR radar the rado waves have been excanged with a special type of powerfull flashlight. It sents a beam of light out and then a scanner in the same radar can see the diffrence in the lightnings of the UFO and the sky surronding it. And it can be seen as long as it is within range. But because of a problem with it only be able to scan streight op and with a tollerance of a few meters, it needed something else, like the new AD-ATD. The Auto Deployment And Tracking Device. With this new utillity, the radar could now rotate 360 degree arround itself, and lower the flashlight to almost ground level. But because it cannot see throught ground, it has been proven to be uneffective at long renge. Another system was quickly generated, that used the made the scanner use ordenary sunlight to find the UFO. This was alot whrose then with the flashlight, but the scanner was much slower in rotation, even if it used the AD-ATD. Even how slow it might be, it has still proven to be far superior to the ordenary radar.


"When i heard that the guys in frence made us a couble, i was pretty ammused about it. It looked almost like a normal radar, just with a flashlight in the middle! And it even ran on batteries! What are we trying to catch here? Aliens, or Bunnys with drums?" ~Chef of Facility Manifacture Somey-Strangey-Namey"

Edited by mikker, 26 October 2003 - 02:50 PM.

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#5 Ancalagon

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 05:30 PM

hmm. . . you're right about the array thing. The defintion of an array is an orderly arrangment of items. Also, the acronym RADAR means Radio Detection And Ranging for anyone who wants to know.

Do we have to invent spuedoscience for everything?! Can't we just say the radar is a wide beam doppler like the one on the interceptor? Fankly, I don't think a lightbulb system would work. I think that first of all, it wouldn't be able to see through the ground, secondly, it wouldn't be able to see through the clouds. I also have to believe that it would meet a lot of interference from the sun. Oh, and I think that just about every radar on the planet can rotate 360 degrees.

Edited by Ancalagon, 26 October 2003 - 10:24 PM.


#6 j'ordos

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 05:39 PM

Also, follow this link to get to a picture of what will be used as the small radar facility

http://www.projectxe...ics/smradar.jpg
"You can't trust your eyes if your imagination's out of focus" - Mark Twain
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#7 Deimos

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 03:27 PM

My problem with any light based detection system is that OMG WTF is that... No no that huge great fuskin beam of light over there, what is it and why is it tracking that odd shaped aircraft. Lets call the press ;)

Xcom was always supposed secret and if they went shining huge great beams of light all over the place it wouldn't take long them to be across the world's media. Not only that but imagine the conversation inside a ufo...
"Here Fred, there's this big beam of light shining up at us from down there."

"Is it harming the craft?"

"Nope"

"Well send a couple of plasma bolts down on it, everyone can see us"

"Righto"

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#8 j'ordos

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 03:32 PM

It could be done wit IR- or UV-light, invisible, at least to us humans ^_^
But I think a normal radar would be better suited here
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#9 Ancalagon

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 04:02 PM

I like the idea idea of using doppler radar, you know, radar so sensitive it can detect differences in humidity. It'd also match the xc-1 ctd since that plane uses doppler as well. Also, another problem with lightbulb based systems, doesn't light bend in air? Also, I would think that the sun would be a very difficult competitor to beat when it comes to light production. A spotlight in a theater doesn't even come close to generating the same levels of all different kinds of light, and that's across at most 300ft. Now try producing even that much light accross 450 km through atmosperic, weather, and solar interference (not to mention the ground that it has to go through) and you've got a pretty big task on your hands. Even assuming you're using new mostly efficient LEDs (they would have to be really, really turbo-charged LEDs) and only generating one wavelength of light, it's still a very difficult task.

#10 Cartesian

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:15 AM

I'm sure everyone has wondered why the aliens dont stomp on the xcom bases since they are broadcasting their position with active radar. perhaps we should be after some sort of passive detection device?

how about neutrino detection? it could be that the system that allows the aliens to fly also generates large numbers of neutrinos.

I neutrino detector basically consists of a large amount of clear water (or some other optically transparent media) with some photomultiplier tubes and some photodetectors. It is completely passive and undetectable from a ufo sense, can work underground at any distance and is directional.

for fainter neutrino sources you need larger tanks of water to increase your detection volume, this would be the large radar array equivalent.

the detector itself can look like a large ball (subbury has a nice one), see attacjed jpeg.

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#11 SupSuper

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 03:55 AM

i decided to give the job of "evolving" the small ratar CTD to anyone that wants, since i'm far too busy to continue working on it (mainly because of school and tests and stuff).
besides, you guys do a better job than a 14-year old like me :P

too bad, now you will never know the ancient secrets of supsupers long gone avatar ;)

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#12 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 02:02 PM

Good idea.

However, the baseview radar models would need to be re-worked if we did that... :(
I'm only partially inactive. :P I can still be reached at cpl.facehugger@gmail.com, and via PM. Preferably the former.

*Coming back? Avast! Facehugger, finish your assignments!*

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#13 Breunor

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 02:41 PM

Could the neutrino sensor be shaped like something other than a sphere? Could it be smaller? If it really needs to be a giant sphere, maybe the facility could have the top of the sphere coming up out of the floor, suggesting the majority of it is underneath the facility. Then the sensing equipment could be in the facility itself. You'd need to ask Vaaish about this, he built the facility models. Would the small and large radar differ only in the size of the sphere? Or could you have several spheres in the larger one, and use triangulation or something for the higher accuracy/range?

#14 Ancalagon

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 06:24 PM

My question is can nuetrinos be used to determine direction as well as speed? I'm not sure if nuetrinos would actually work. Of course, ununpentium probably isn't an island of stablity that generates super a gravity waves or whatever either :D .

Also, with all the radio systems on the planet today(every tv tower, radio tower, airport radar dish, cell phone tower, andd even most satelites, transmit some amount of radio waves) , the aliens would stand very little chance of detecting the x-com radar.

However, I'm for Nuetrino detection primarily because.
1. They provide a way to differentiate between UFOs and airplanes.
2. They can work underground, unlike any form of radar.
3. It provides a reason as to why they only detect a small percentage of UFOs

Also, about the reworking thing. Is it hard to model a sphere made entirely out of triangles? I'd think it'd be pretty easy, but since I don't know anything about 3d modeling I'll just shut up now.

#15 Cartesian

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 07:00 PM

neutrinos cannot be used to determine speed, but they can determine direction. The neutrino detector can look like anything you want since it is just a star shaped volume (this si the best geometry). (star shaped is a technical term, just means every point on the boundary can be connected to every other point on the boundary bby a straight line).

so a sphere is the "best star shaped volumme" a cube (with slighlty convex sides) is another, etc. The sphere is the best physically since it uses the least amount of building materials and the geometry is simple meaning that calculations to determine neutrino trajectory are simplest.

Spheres are also easy to draw in 3D programs. You dont have to make the sphere out of triangles. All or none of the sphere can be showing. It doesnt matter as to the operation of the sphere. It might be adviseable to have the sphere not showing since if it got shot in a batlescape and was peirced youd have to have water pouring out.

You want the largest volume of water available since this increases your detection volume.

Multiple spheres could be used to traingulate the position (one sphere just says he's somehwere in that-ta direction, doesnt give distance or velocity). So maybe a small array is 3 spheres (for a 2d array, 4 for a 3d array), and a large array is 7 (for a 2d arrangement), 19 (for a 3d arrangement).

this is all kind of moot. the array can look like a series of bumps in the ground/whatever, and there can be a flash/neat console if someone wants (it actually just wants a bunch of computers to do the VERY nasty calculations). as long as there ISNT a visible radar dish, we can say whatever we want in the x-net.

As for the argument about detection of XCOM radar and normal radio waves, there is a huge difference. The XCOM base will stand out like a light house on a dark shore with some houses and a well lit tavern, there is that difference in directional intensity.

#16 mikker

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 02:13 PM

neutrino...hmmm

when i heard that name, i thought: "shouldnt it be for the the hyper-wave decoder?".
When you said that it could be the same as UFOs use, then i though: "shouldnt it be for the the hyper-wave decoder?".
When i heard that it used tubes containing liquid, i though: "shouldnt it be for the the hyper-wave decoder?".
When i saw the picture, i though: "Boys, we have a hyper-wave decoder!"

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#17 Varkk

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 04:08 PM

No because the hyperwave decoder intercepted and decoded alien communications, so unless they are using neutrinos to carry information...
However it is more believable that something in a UFO could generate large numbers of neutrinos, e.g power source or similar. So it is feasible that by monitoring the numbers of neutrinos and their trajectories that such an object could be detected and even tracked.

#18 Cartesian

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 05:51 PM

Yeah, the hyperwave decoder told you what type of ufo and what type of aliens (predominantly) and what mission. neutrinos cant tell you this info. The reason they cant tell you this info is because it is REALLY REALLY hard to detect them, and any msg you get would certainly be mostly incomplete. so HWD<>neutrino.

I dont want to hijack this thread, so perhaps this should be elsewhere:

I can try to think of a hyperwave decoder... since we have to figure out what the transmission medium is for their messages. OK, nothing is occuring to me that fits all the properties we need.

How about the hyperwave decoder is a giant "brain in a vat" that listens in on all the ohter "brains in vats" chatter in UFOs. (why dont they detect bases? alien bases have shielding from unauthorised sources?)

XCOM develops mind control/ mind shield about the same time doesnt it? I REALLY dont recommend trying to figure out how the brains to one another? (ie what our brains radiate that aallow mind control. quantum fluctuations? arguable but dubious at best). This also kinda ties in the with final alien (the giant brain in a vat).

Just some very random/unfinished sugggestions at this stage.

#19 Ancalagon

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 08:39 PM

I never thought of our brains emiting something, but more as the mind probes and psi ams and ethereals actively trying to access an enemy's brain. If our brains actually emited something, why do the ethereals need to see an enemy to psi attack him (even though the actuall psi-attacker doesn't)?

#20 Cartesian

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 08:13 AM

Our brains dont emit anything per se...I dont mean that our brains emit anything in a sense that you or I would be comfortable with, its just that for an interaction to take place, information has to travel. It has to travel in some form. Take for example you. If I see yuo it is because a photon originating from you has entered my eye. This is what I mean by emission.

Welllllll, techincally since our thoughts are electrical impulses in our brains, miunte magnetic fields are generated. These might be plausibly detected by a sufficiently advanced/sensitive/selective device. The line fo sight thing could be that the fields are so miunte that if they pass thru solid matter they are completely absorbed... ugh... i cant force myself to like it. These fields are REALLY small and the noise ratio would be far to high to get a useful signal at anything larger than a small distance (maybe).

Quantum fields on the ohter hand have no boundary so the wavefunction of my brain in some formal way is interacting with your wavefunction from yuor brain right as I type this. Once again signal to noise ratio...

#21 MagicAndy

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 06:30 AM

Hey there. This was supposed to be just the short range radar system, but I figured that the long range wouldn't be very much more than this, and since I'd already done some research.... :rolleyes:

The problem with writing about this suff is that it exists, so you can't just talk out of your @rse ...which is exactly what I think I've done. :spank:

So anyone who knows anything about radars is welcome to pick this to pieces, and leave me a bitter and broken man.

Also I need fluff text, repeat fluff text

EDIT: Update RTF (again (again))

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Edited by MagicAndy, 06 February 2004 - 11:56 PM.


#22 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 08:16 AM

For readers that don't know, radar is a Line-of-Sight detection system. Anything below the horizon can't be seen with radar. They are usually put on top of hills or towers because of this. (weather radar, at least)

In X-COM, radar worked together with satellites for ground detection. I imagine that it'd be hard for a satellite to detect a fast moving UFO, so it'd be used to find slow UFOs below the radar horizon. Any fast moving ship below the radar horizon would be practically impossible to detect. (approaching battleship at low altitude and full speed, anyone? :devillaugh:)

The small radar is a cheap, easy to construct facility. (500K/12 days) I imagine it's like a cheap, all-purpose radar kit, that anyone who needs a quick radar can set up. The large radar is more expenisve, longer range, and takes a long time to set up. (800K, 25 days) This seems like more of a custom radar setup, that takes a long time to calibrate and adjust, before it can be turned on.

The best results came from using extremely large transmitting/receiving hardware, producing an proportionately large wavelength, well above standard bands. Properly adjusted, this transmission could be used to give the needed definition and resolution required to effectively detect alien craft


Higher frequencies have smaller wavelengths, and higher resolution, on higher bands.

Anyways, good work MagicAndy. I didn't know doppler effect could be used to find the heading.
Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
Secondly: This organisation takes too much money to run. Weapon shipments will come from Siberia from now on. Costly maintenance is to be cut on all facilities. That includes venting.
Thirdly: We have a new colonel. His name is Facehugger, he loves aliens, and I want you all to treat him with respect.
Lastly: I'll be in my condo on an undisclosed island, if you need me. Good day.

FMIX-The General Stores

#23 Ancalagon

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 06:22 PM

I wouldn't spend as much time as you did explaining the concept of radar. I would cut out the second and third paragraphs under technical description. My reasoning behind this is that most people that want to know how radar works can look it up online, and the equations do not make the ctd any easier to understand. Also, have we decided to use that kind of formating or not, because it would look rather stupid if some of us did and some of us didn't. Also, a little fluff text might help as well.

#24 MagicAndy

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 02:36 AM

I did, think about taking it out... but it needs something to pad it out.

Haven't thought of any decent fluff text yet, so be my guest ..... ^_^

#25 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 07:19 AM

[

*DING* [Alright, the cookies are done!]
*munch*[Mmm... these are good, Julie! Do I smell brownies, as well?]
[Yeah. They're on dish 3.]

]
Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
Secondly: This organisation takes too much money to run. Weapon shipments will come from Siberia from now on. Costly maintenance is to be cut on all facilities. That includes venting.
Thirdly: We have a new colonel. His name is Facehugger, he loves aliens, and I want you all to treat him with respect.
Lastly: I'll be in my condo on an undisclosed island, if you need me. Good day.

FMIX-The General Stores

#26 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 07:39 AM

The [small radar] facility is practically identical to the [R-209] in design. Only a few adjustments need to be made to the power output and frequency required for detecting UFOs. Because materials are always readily available, the [small radar] parts are shipped in only a few days. The [small radar] arrives as a simple kit, which is easily set up in a few days. The module needs a week to be excavated and safely reinforced, after which the kit can be easily assembled in only a day or two. The [small radar] is the fastest underground radar to setup for X-Corps.


*I made up R-209. Use a real radar model if you like.

--Edit: Small radar fluff text--

Edited by Robo Dojo 58, 04 February 2004 - 07:39 AM.

Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
Secondly: This organisation takes too much money to run. Weapon shipments will come from Siberia from now on. Costly maintenance is to be cut on all facilities. That includes venting.
Thirdly: We have a new colonel. His name is Facehugger, he loves aliens, and I want you all to treat him with respect.
Lastly: I'll be in my condo on an undisclosed island, if you need me. Good day.

FMIX-The General Stores

#27 MagicAndy

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 09:50 PM

Okay have updated rtf with a less technical, smoother flowing version encorperating some of the ideas so far.

#28 Ancalagon

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 12:42 AM

First of all:

The Short Range UFO Detection (S.RUD) is a high definition, multiple frequency, Radio Detection and Ranging system built specifically for use by X-Com combines with a geo-synchronous satellite network.

Either change "is" to ", " or make it two sentances by adding ". It" after x-com. This sentence:

. Objects’ distances (range) and velocities (speed and direction) can be determined from analysing the echoes that objects reflects (Time delay and Doppler Frequency respectively).

Should be changed to this:
"An Object's distance (range) and velocity (speed and direction) can be determined by analysing the echoes that the object reflects (Time delay and Doppler Frequency respectively). "
See how much nicer it sounds when you only have to talk about a single object? and it means practically the same thing. Also, you had a period at the begining of the last thing in parenthesis "()" that needed to be removed.
In the next sentance, instead of "where", you should use "were", which is the second person singular and plural and first and third person plural past indicative of be (okay, I got that from dictionary.com). Anyway, "were" is the one you want to use, not "where". Don't you just love english? Also, strangely enough, "mid air" is actually one word, so it's "midair" (That one also courtesy of dictionary.com)
Also, don't say the satellites are "geo-synchronous". The current network of staellites probably doesn't provide the imaging capabilities you need. I'll discuss the satelite problem at the bottom of this post.

Take a deep breath. . . . . . .

Now for the long range.
First of all, list what every letter in the accronym "LRUD" means. Although it may seem redundant now, remember that these are going to be two entirely seperate x-net entries. Also, as the sentance is, you don't need a comma after LRUD. "an technological" should be changed to "a technological." This:

Compared to the S.RUD however, the L.RUD has many advantages, most notably a greater area of detection and a greater chance of detection within that area.

Should be changed to:
"Compared to the S.RUD however, the L.RUD has many advantages. The most notable are a greater area of detection and a greater chance of detection within that area."

And with the geosynchronous satellite: Satelites are expensive, you probably can't build one with the million dollars it takes to build the system. Again, this will be dicussed at the bottom of the post.
Instead of "fine tune adjustment", just say "fine tuning", they mean the same thing.

L.RUD works like the Short Range version.

This just doesn't sound very eloquent. Try Changing it to "The L.RUD system works much like the short ranged version." Or something like that. In addition, in the "hence it uses", you can take out the "it". Also, ". You need one less period in the next "L.RUD".
You only need one and in the parenthesis explaining attenuation
You can't tiangulate with only one satelite. I will discuss this later.
And finally, you can take out the "needed"

Now for the satellite issue. The problem here is, that many of the images you need to take will be unavailable to you in the locations you have bases at. Also, to accuratly use the proposed images to locate UFOs, you would need a 3 dimensional image, which a single sattelite is incappable of producing. Not to mention the fact that the doppler satelites currrently in space that you need for the attenuation measurements can only take one image ever 15 minutes, which ismuch too slow. The radar would probably have to rely on an entirely new network of doppler imaging satellites. Since each satellite produces a 2-d image, you would need at least 2 to determine depth, although you would need more to determine it accurately. 27 satelites is a safe bet, since it the number in the GPS system, and that only uses 1 dimension per satelite. Anyway, you can just say that the system was built in preperation for project xenocide by NASA, the European space agency, and the Russian space agency.

EDIT: In retrospect, it would have been easier for me to just change the file and post it. oh well, maybe I'll do that next time. I forgot to mention: Good job! just be more careful when proofreading it. I do like how you handled it though.

Edited by Ancalagon, 05 February 2004 - 12:45 AM.


#29 MagicAndy

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 02:50 AM

:blink:

#30 MagicAndy

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 03:33 AM

Okay... version 3

#31 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 07:00 AM

The satellites could also be based on an existing network. It could be GPS, or some fictional network that will be built in the next ~10 years. The satellites could've originally been used for surveillance (like the cold war satellites), and X-Corps could be given passcodes to use them.
Pretty much, X-Corps could be loaned the use of satellites that already exist, instead of having to build a whole network for themselves. For example, X-Corps could use a U.S. spy satellite, when it's over the U.S., and not anything interesting. It's still useful, and it costs the funding nations very little to do that.

--Edit: For Example, NBC builds a bunch of satellites,(to spy on the world :sly:) and it turns out they don't need them all. So they give some of their extra capacity to X-Corps. It's free, and tax deductable for them. ^_^ --

Edited by Robo Dojo 58, 05 February 2004 - 07:04 AM.

Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
Secondly: This organisation takes too much money to run. Weapon shipments will come from Siberia from now on. Costly maintenance is to be cut on all facilities. That includes venting.
Thirdly: We have a new colonel. His name is Facehugger, he loves aliens, and I want you all to treat him with respect.
Lastly: I'll be in my condo on an undisclosed island, if you need me. Good day.

FMIX-The General Stores

#32 MagicAndy

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 06:37 PM

I think I will edit that a little, just to say that they launched some satalites to cover the areas that they couldn't commondeer existing satalites in.

#33 Ancalagon

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 06:48 PM

The problem is, I don't think there currently is a network of doppler radars sophisticated enough to provide the data he says that they obtain. You could say that it logs into an ultimate weather network set up by the UN or something. But other than a geo-synchronus weather or security satellite network, there's nothing that could provide the images and reliability nescesary for x-corp. But I do think having a predeveloped system would be a good idea.

EDIT: Andy's idea is good too.

Edited by Ancalagon, 05 February 2004 - 06:51 PM.


#34 Cartesian

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 06:56 PM

Hey guys, the radar facility is underground in UFO. Radar doesnt travel thru solid objects.

if the radar facility is based on an active system (it sends out energy and reads the reflection) UFOs would be able to easily detect the radar facilty, and hence the base, and they would shortly attack xcom bases.

satellites would be shortly shot down in the beginning of an spaceborne alien invasion.

So traditional radar is out the window im afraid, from technical and logical standpoints.

I proposed a neutrino detector as the "new radar" facility.a while ago. Neutrinos are small (nearly?) massless, chargeless particles. they are extremely hard to detect. they are emitted from "weak decays" (technical term, google it), as found in nuclear reactions.

A neutrino detector today consists of a large detection volume (as they dont often interact with 'normal' matter, you have to take a large 'target area'), made out of an optically transparent medium (typically doped water). Ie: the neutrino detector is a large vat of water, with detectors /photomultiplier tubes on the inside surface.

heres a pic below, of the outside of the detector at sudbury

the good thing about having a neutrino detector is that tey are naturally located underground (to cut out lots of other nuclear particle showers), and they are passive so you cant locate one. ive already worked the xenium to emit copious amounts of neutrinos while in use so that the neutrino detector becomes the natural way in which to detect flying ufos.

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Edited by Cartesian, 05 February 2004 - 07:00 PM.


#35 Cartesian

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 06:57 PM

the inside of superkamiokande. those are a couple of men in the boat chaging one of the photomultiplier tubes.

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Edited by Cartesian, 05 February 2004 - 06:58 PM.


#36 MagicAndy

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 07:20 PM

ive already worked the xenium to emit copious amounts of neutrinos while in use so that the neutrino detector becomes the natural way in which to detect flying ufos.


You get short and long range detection before you get Xenium.

Radar is line of sight (they casually brushed over that in the original), so I propose that while the main body of analytical equipment remains underground, the dish is above ground, as with most facilities.

If aliens shot down all the satalites there would be no comunication either and they could just waltz in without much effort anyway making playing the game redundant. Maybe the aliens are using some your satalites as well, and so have decided to leave them be (like independence day).

Aliens do attack your bases, they probably find them by tracking the radar.

Nutrino detectors look more expensive/larger than the game price/size would suggest.

Very interesting dissitation though, I look forward to reading your CRT.

#37 Ancalagon

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 07:44 PM

Taking down the sattelites would not be in the best interests of the aliens. Thier mission is one of terror and subterfuge, not conquest. If they took down the satellites, there would be no way to spread their propoganda and info about terror mission.

Also, given the number of radar facilities around, it would be hard to pinpoint the one at which there is an x-corps base. It's not like the x-corps base is the only millatary installation on the planet. An alien would not want to go on the offense against a millitary installation as this would incur heavy loses. They would want to make sure the installation is the right one.

Whatever you do, it's fine with me.

#38 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 08:38 PM

An alien would not want to go on the offense against a millitary installation as this would incur heavy loses. They would want to make sure the installation is the right one.

definately.

If I recall correctly, aliens used PSI to detect bases. (they read minds)
X-Corps would obviously try to hide their base. But after they find that the aliens don't care about radar, there won't be much concern.
Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
Secondly: This organisation takes too much money to run. Weapon shipments will come from Siberia from now on. Costly maintenance is to be cut on all facilities. That includes venting.
Thirdly: We have a new colonel. His name is Facehugger, he loves aliens, and I want you all to treat him with respect.
Lastly: I'll be in my condo on an undisclosed island, if you need me. Good day.

FMIX-The General Stores

#39 MagicAndy

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Posted 06 February 2004 - 11:14 PM

Neutrino is an intersting idea, but is a far cry from the simple radar systems of the original. I will make some basic changes, but I will leave Neutrino systems be.


EDIT: Version 4 now available

Edited by MagicAndy, 06 February 2004 - 11:55 PM.


#40 tzuchan

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Posted 07 February 2004 - 03:33 AM

While majority of the module resides underground, the dishes while the dishes, for scanning and satellite communication, remain at the surface.


In particular, note the "the dishes while the dishes"
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#41 Cartesian

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Posted 08 February 2004 - 07:20 PM

I don't have time to write up a nice polished CTD, with *any* fluff, but I'll write up the bones, and will keep an eye on the CTD.

The year the invasion began, anomolous results began appearing in experimental neutrino detectors worldwide. This phenomenon rapidly generated interest in scientific circles since the results indicated intense neutrino emission in Earths atmosphere and neighbouring regions of space, and they were too strongly collaberated by experiments across the globe to be ignored. They were called anomolous at the time since the only sources known that could generate a signal of that sort were the stars, and nuclear reactors. We know now that they were the first UFOs in the invasion fleet.

It is for this reason that we chose to use Neutrino detectors as our "radar". We have necessarily had to build underground bases since the destruction of all major military radar installations and airfields on the surface. The detector itself consists of a large volume of heavy water surrounded by photomultiplier tubes and radiation shielding. The photomultiplier tubes are connected up to a cluster of computers which calculate the trajectory of incoming neutrinos from the cherenkov light cones the neutrinos leave in their wake. The intensity of the neutrino flux allows us to calculate the range of the UFO. Multiple detectors increase our detection range and accuracy linearly with volume of water present.

The neutrino detector unit is passive, which allows allows us to monitor the enemy completely undetected since we emit no signal for them to track down. The neutrinos emitted by enemy craft are unimpeded by any physical material which means that the bedrock seperating our installations from the surface doesn't interefere with our tracking.

blah blah blah. Ill work on this some more if ppl want.

#42 MagicAndy

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Posted 09 February 2004 - 01:47 AM

You win :D

If we decide to use this rather than the original UFO "radar" explaination, then I think we should use your CTD.

I think the idea of Neutrino dectectors sits better and is less complicated (so to speak) to explain.

#43 tzuchan

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Posted 09 February 2004 - 03:01 AM

As requested by Cartesian in the HWD thread:
I present to you all the NEUDAR :naughty:
This is the current rewritten Neutrino based replacement for small radar.
Only problem I forsee is that we might need to redesign the base module to fit the CTD(Which means the art dept. ppl will come tzuchan hunting... :whatwhat: ) or we can just fudge over the fact taht we're still using radar arrays to detect neutrinos...

Edit:
Forgot to include the CTD in the post of the Anti-RTF movement :D .

The small NEUDAR is a neutrino based detection system that currently is the only method of detecting UFOs reliably. X-Corps is the first military force to implement the use of NEUDARs, and as such, is the only combat force with the ability to detect and counter the alien invaders.

<Insert Fluffie>

Records have shown that UFOs have means of evading detection by conventional radars. As result, when the UFO incursions increased both in hostility as well as frequency, it proved important to develop an effective means of detection.

During a documented UFO sighting in Japan, the Kamiokande II neutrino detector recorded an unprecedented increase in neutrino detection and when the scientists calculated the source of the neutrinos, they discovered that the source corresponded with the position of the UFO. This immediately triggered a renewed interest in the development of a neutrino detection array, this time specifically designed to detect the neutrino emissions given off by UFOs.

The small Neutrino Detection Array(NEUDAR) consists of three large underground tanks filled with ultra-pure water and lined with extremely sensitive light sensors. When highly charged neutrinos enter the tank, they give of bursts of lights in a cone. By detecting the cones of lights, the direction from which the neutrinos originated from can be calculated by a cluster of computer. Then, by combining data from the three tanks, the position of the source can then be triangulated.

The construction of additional NEUDARs can increase the sensitivity of the entire NEUDAR network as a whole as well as speed up the triangulation of the source. This is because the addition of tanks not only increases the chances of detection a neutrino burst, but also provide additional directional data not only for use in the calculation of the source, but also as a source of data verification.

Due to the fact that NEUDARs are located underground and are based on passive detection, they prove to be undetectable to external sources. This is a valuble asset as it will prevent the alien invaders from locating our bases with ease. A design for large NEUDARs has been completed recently and has both improved detection rates as well as increased detection range.

<insert Fluffie 2!!>

Attached Files


Edited by tzuchan, 09 February 2004 - 03:02 AM.

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#44 Breunor

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Posted 09 February 2004 - 09:41 AM

Looking good guys, I've downloaded the last text and will link it in the asset list as time permits(read:when boss isn't around!).

I'm guessing the large radar entry is essentially the same thing, perhaps just a paragraph explaining a more efficient technique somewhere in the process, which costs more to make and maintain, right?

#45 tzuchan

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 09:11 PM

Here's the CTD for the large NEUDAR...
Since there aren't much comments about the small NEUDAR, I assume that I'm heading in the right direction...

Anyone up to creating some fluff text for both CTDs?

Large NEUDAR ctd:

The large NEUDAR is a recently developed larger and more advanced version of the small NEUDAR that has both better detection range and detection rate through the use of CCDs and a advanced supercomputer. Multiple large NEUDARs can improve the detection rate of UFOs that are within range. We recommend that at least one large NEUDAR be built at every base.

<Insert Fluffie>

The large Neutrino Detection Array(NEUDAR), like the small NEUDAR consists of three large underground tanks filled with ultra-pure water. However, these three tanks are twenty percent larger than their counterparts in the small NEUDAR and use an extremely sensitive layer of Charged-Couple Devices(CCDs) that enable the large NEUDAR to collect very precise data regarding the neutrinos that it detects. Instead of using a cluster of computers, the large NEUDAR uses the new HELIX III supercomputer to do the triangulation of the source. Through the use of the HELIX III, the large NEUDAR is more capable of separating the sources of neutrinos, and as such, has better tracking capablities than the small NEUDAR.
Unfortunately, the CCDs used in the construction of the detector tanks are not only much more expensive than the light sensors used in the small NEUDAR, they also have a tendency to burn out. As such, they have to be replaced regularly, resulting in higher maintainence costs. The use of a HELIX III supercomputer also adds considerably to the expense of the large NEUDAR system. Nevertheless, the detection rates and range of the large NEUDAR means that it is worth the extra costs and time required to build it.

The construction of additional NEUDARs can increase the sensitivity of the entire NEUDAR network as a whole as well as speed up the triangulation of the source. This is because the addition of tanks not only increases the chances of detection a neutrino burst, but also provide additional directional data not only for use in the calculation of the source, but also as a source of data verification.

Due to the fact that NEUDARs are located underground and are based on passive detection, they prove to be undetectable to external sources. This is a valuble asset as it will prevent the alien invaders from locating our bases with ease.

<insert Fluffie 2!!>

Attached Files


tzuchan - the last sane CTD writer
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#46 MagicAndy

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 10:10 PM

very nice!

In the small Neutrino Detector perhaps we could put something more about why radars can't be used, since people may wonder why its so different from the original.

Something like:

As well as begin unsuitable for an underground facilties, conventional radar is deemed too poor to detect UFO's, owing to the low relfective properties of their contruction and material. Although satalite augmentation can be used to combat these problems, any large satalite network would surely be attacked and downed well before completion.

Edited by MagicAndy, 10 February 2004 - 10:11 PM.


#47 tzuchan

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 11:18 PM

Er... Kinda covered that already. I felt we didn't really need to go indepth into that as most UFO sightings recorded often have nearby radars seeing nothing out there.

Here's the line in particular:

Records have shown that UFOs have means of evading detection by conventional radars


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#48 Breunor

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 11:42 PM

I've updated the list with both those tzuchan. Next will be to add it to the XML file-for those of you who can access the X-Net viewer (IE, directx9, plugin), I've started to bind the XML file to entries, so far I've got facilities linked to the file. So now when you select those links, any data I've copied into the XML file will load into the viewer. It's not 100% of course, but as I get more updates I'll get it cleaned up.

I plan to convert the CTD asset list into an XML viewer as well, all this means is that when you click on a link in the CTD list, the text displays in the same format as you'd see in the game (just the text frame, not the 3D models and all that). The 3D model viewer links to the same file, and eventually the menu choices and links in the CTD list will also link to the XML, so 1 change will update all the various web pages... so when I mess it up, it shows up everywhere too... hmmm... ;)

#49 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 07:56 AM

Good stuff, tzuchan! It looks much better than having normal radars, and shows how only X-Corps can save us. I hope the radar models aren't done yet.
I wonder how the scientists can set up a small neutrino detector in twelve days? :huh?:
Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
Secondly: This organisation takes too much money to run. Weapon shipments will come from Siberia from now on. Costly maintenance is to be cut on all facilities. That includes venting.
Thirdly: We have a new colonel. His name is Facehugger, he loves aliens, and I want you all to treat him with respect.
Lastly: I'll be in my condo on an undisclosed island, if you need me. Good day.

FMIX-The General Stores

#50 Breunor

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 07:59 AM

They just go to Radio Shack for the main components, and after 12 days with some big solder irons, voila! ;)