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#51 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 09:33 PM

Wasn't aware of that :), can't capture one alive?

#52 Cpt. Boxershorts

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 05:59 PM

Well, I think you could eventually manage to MC one quarter of a Cyberdisc (since, programaticly, they were four units hooked together). You couldn't access the it's weaponry though, and on the next turn, the other three quarters would see it as an enemy and shoot it, with predictable results.

From the alien stats doc (which may be out of date, or ignored at this point), they were just going to be set to be immune to psi, along with Artopods.

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#53 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 09:00 PM

Ok then, so the only way to obtain a live Terrordisc is to get the info from an engineer, ok, will fix it :).
Will probably have to fix Alien Breeding as well, remove live Terrordisc and live Artopod as requisites, it's fairly obvious anyway that they don't reproduce in normal ways.
Thanks for the help :D

#54 mikker

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 05:29 AM

you should also add the artopod to cloaks engineers, in similar fashion as the terror disk.

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 07:00 AM

Ok, will do. :)

#56 mikker

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 11:06 AM

hey - after reading the recreation topic, i though that that topic should only be researchable AFTER psionic theory. It has alot of psi elelemnts integrated - nothing wrong with that, it fits, but it should only be researchable after psi theory.

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#57 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 11:22 AM

That has been pointed out already. Then it should be researchable after researching PsiLab, since Psionic Theory is a bonus entry which pops up without research hours required along with psi-lab.
The options are either we change the tree to make it researchable after psi-lab, or we add a short paragraph at the beginning of the recreation entry saying that after several texts, it has been concluded that the device affects individual minds, since the effects on each subject is different. I lean towards adding the paragraph, what do the rest think?

#58 Astyanax

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 12:37 PM

Well, I lean towards changing the tech tree because psionics are so integral to the current Alien Recreation CT that adding an extra "disclaimer" paragraph (for cases where Alien Recreation is researched prior to the Psi Lab) cannot adequately address the extensive details about psionics, imho, and cutting out the psi sections would cripple the text.

Then again, there's a conflict of interest on my part because it's right here on my proofreading queue... LOL

Edited by Astyanax, 01 March 2005 - 12:41 PM.

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#59 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 12:51 PM

I don't see why adding a short paragraph could not address this appropiately. After all, this is "light" psionics, not aggresive psionics which can control your mind, these are just illusions of the mind, it's not that hard to deduce that psionics are acting.
But again, we can go either way, let's hear more opinions.

#60 mikker

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:12 PM

light, agressive, whatever, it's still psi :)

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#61 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:26 PM

So?, it's that hard to explain? Psionic Theory is for Psi attacks. After all, you CAN research Psionic Probe at the beginning, so it's pretty much the same thing.

#62 Astyanax

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:36 PM

I'm not sure what changing the tech tree entails. If it's a HUGE amount of work, then sure, I'll change the Alien Recreation CT, no problem. But if it's only a small thing, I'd prefer to ask whether it can be done, because the Alien Recreation CT won't have to be limited- it can revel freely its full psionic glory. :P
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#63 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:40 PM

I'm not sure what changing the tech tree entails.  If it's a HUGE amount of work, then sure, I'll change the Alien Recreation CT, no problem.  But if it's only a small thing, I'd prefer to ask whether it can be done, because the Alien Recreation CT won't have to be limited- it can revel freely its full psionic glory. :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not that big problem, but I don't like it in this case. As I said, the Psionic Probe can be researched without Psionic Lab, so what's the big deal here?

#64 Astyanax

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:54 PM

While that's true, I feel the Alien Recreation text would be limited if constraints were put on the psi aspect. Admittedly, it's a whim, but purely for the fine details of the Alien Recreation CT.

Instead of speaking vaguely- "we think this, and we suspect that it works by xx", and "we cannot fully fathom the intricacies of this device"- we can speak with certainty- "the xx does this, it works by xx", and "we are frankly stunned at the elegant simplicity of the device." The text would be much stronger for it, imho.

Additionally, if Psi Lab is researched first, then the subsequent Alien Recreation CT would be unnecessarily vague.

And lastly, I'd prefer the results of research to contain more certainty than uncertainty.

But as I said, it is a whim- both are certainly possible.
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#65 mikker

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 02:08 PM

Good point with the psi probe - maybe we could tie this, too, into the psi scheme? I mean, with this device, we might get the idea how to make the psionic amplifier. So Psi lab + psi probe = psionic amplifier.

But how you would use it? Hmmm...

Tough one.

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#66 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 02:12 PM

Good point with the psi probe - maybe we could tie this, too, into the psi scheme? I mean, with this device, we might get the idea how to make the psionic amplifier. So Psi lab + psi probe = psionic amplifier.

But how you would use it? Hmmm...

Tough one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That has been also discussed before, I would also love to get the psionic scheme more organised, but the problem is that changing into that would effectively slow down your progress to Psionic Amplifier, which is a very important weapon, and we cannot do that yet :NoNo:

#67 mikker

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 02:15 PM

hmmm... i guess you're right about this one too.

I think i'll just stay out of this, you guys know more of it then I do :P

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#68 Astyanax

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 02:16 PM

Yeah, the Psi research is a great deal more important than Alien Recreation, and changes to that tech branch would likely encounter even more resistance. :)

On another note, On my next version of Psi Theory, I'll highlight all the conditional text (references to the Mind Probe).
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#69 Kikanaide

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:59 AM

Did I see right that in the most recent XML we now grant the Alien Missions through the detection of UFO's on those missions (using the equivalent of a [hyperwave decoder]) rather than by capturing a huge string of live navigators? I'm just asking 'cause it's a change, although not one I can say as a player I would object to.
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#70 Astyanax

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 12:11 PM

On a side note, weren't the Alien missions discovered through interrogating the live aliens (e.g. Alien Terrorist --> Alien Terror Mission) in the original X-Com?

Like Kikanaide, I'm not criticizing the change; it's just a "cool, that's interesting" reaction. :P
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#71 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 12:20 PM

(people keep criticising, *hmph*) :P
The Tech Tree is in an alpha state right now :), I found it more reasonable to receive the info via transmission decoder when you detected such ship... but might not do. It's just kinda illogical that you do need to interrogate a navigator when you've actually already been onboard one of these ships. It can be one way, but if you for example take a landed Terror Ship mission, you gotta learn something from it, I don't suppose the Terror Ship just "vanishes" when you finish the mission, right? that's kinda incoherent, I always found that X-Com3 was more logical in this point, you had to capture the ship and bring it to base in order to study it, what do you think?

#72 Kikanaide

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 09:03 AM

I can see either way on those two issues, Az. And I think the difference lies in how the CTD's are going to/are reading. Let me explain:

1) The CTD's explain "what" or "how" - makes perfect sense to get this from intercepted transmissions. You might catch bits like "go here, blow this up, bring back this" and from that you can piece together what is going on.

2) The CTD's include info on "why" - since they are unlikely (IMHO) to be giving pep-talks like "remember, we have to do this because _____ so do good and don't screw up because ____ is at stake," it seems that gaining this information through transmission is unlikely. This is the sort of in-depth stuff that you can only get through an interactive conversation (even if he's tied up and you are torturing him, that's still interactive).

Regarding the UFO entries, I would frankly thrilled with changing to a successful UFO recovery of each type, but I suppose I would want it to be a research topic (rather than automatic entries) which would mess with game balance...I could deal with it being automatic, I suppose, but if it is as in-depth as most of our CTD's (note that I've never read a UFO CTD) it would seem incongrous to have it be a "soldiers just got back and look what they found" sort of non-researched report.

I think we need to consider two things with this, though...1) Capturing live aliens was important in the original, and by reducing the need to capture them we are significantly altering the way the game is played. Yet, 2) I never researched all of the UFO's and I never researched all of the missions, and I still won the game...it looked to me like maybe we've added special topics (I can't tell if they are necessary to win, but they look neat) which require all of those to be researched. If we still require capture, and require those technologies, then we have increased the important of live capture, which increases the difficulty (IMO).

In the end, I'm fine with the change, it doesn't bug me and would allow me to capture, mostly, only leaders and commanders...but it is, I think, something that deserves thought depending on all the variables above.

edit - I should add that I definitely agree that apoc was more logical in this aspect. And the disappearing terror ship has always annoyed me. Your reasoning is good, I just wanted to draw attention toward a couple possible impacts of the change.

Edited by Kikanaide, 06 May 2005 - 09:06 AM.

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#73 Moriarty

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Posted 25 September 2005 - 12:45 PM

I guess this is the right place to put this kind of question... azrael, could you explain to me how the XML research tree works? If for example I'm reading it right, you need any one plasma weapon and any one plasma weapon clip to be able to research plasma principles. Is that the right way to read it with those "either" statements in there?

and, secondly, is it intentionally done this way? for example, you research plasma pistol & plasma rifle clip, and that alone enables you to develop plasma principles, leading without further requirements to plasma cannon and plasma defence array? For one, I seem to remember that you needed Heavy Plasma and Heavy Plasma Clip to research Plasma Cannon (Plasma Principles is a bonus that didn't exist in the original game anyway).

...also, I would like to softly and carefully suggest that Xenium research be necessary for plasma cannon and plasma defence, since they have to involve some heavy modifications to alien plasma tech (requiring in-depth knowledge of xenium properties) if they are to use little to no xenium for operation... :(
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#74 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 25 September 2005 - 01:01 PM

Centurion helped me with the Plasma Principles thing, if it's correct (and I believe it is :) ) you need a plasma weapon and its correspondant clip, not just any clip.
About the Xenium and altering the requirements, I've stated my position on that a lot of times, I seriously don't think we are in the position to do so at the moment, neither do we need to right now.
About the rest of the XML, it's pretty self-explanatory (I think), there are requirements to be met to be able to resarch something, and once researched it grants something, such as an item (ability to manufacture it) or xnet entry (which is in turn another requirement). If you have any concrete questions, you can PM me.

Edited by Azrael, 25 September 2005 - 01:14 PM.


#75 Moriarty

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Posted 25 September 2005 - 01:31 PM

ok :) my main question was the requirements for the plasma principles. "plasma weapon + corresponding clip" sounds reasonable =b
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#76 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 06:40 PM

Does anyone know how to make a graphic version of this? Somewhere easily updatable?

#77 kafros

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 07:54 AM

Then you probably used Visio 2003, right?

I guess one of the best alternatives out there are these two:
SmartDraw
OpenOffice Draw

Edit: Azzy, could you please post, for our very pleasure :P, the latest techtree draft? thanks

Edited by kafros, 21 October 2005 - 07:56 AM.


#78 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 08:35 AM

Edit: Azzy, could you please post, for our very pleasure :P, the latest techtree draft? thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's on SVN, and as I posted in my log, since XML is hard to read I wanted to make a graphic version.

Then you probably used Visio 2003, right?

Dunno what that is, just tried with Word 2003.


That looks very good kafros, thanks :)

edit: SmartDraw adds a watermark to force you to purchase it, I'll try OpenOffice (or other means to remove that watermark, as I liked the program <_<)

Edited by Azrael, 21 October 2005 - 09:44 AM.


#79 kafros

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 09:57 AM

It's on SVN, and as I posted in my log, since XML is hard to read I wanted to make a graphic version.

Yikez... It seems that I can't enter http://svn.projectxenocide.com/, access forbidden... Could you please post the direct link to that file? It will save me some trouble (downloading Turtoise, installing, setup the download folder etc)



Dunno what that is, just tried with Word 2003.

http://www.pcmag.com...,1473767,00.asp

That looks very good kafros, thanks :)

My pleasure =b

edit: SmartDraw adds a watermark to force you to purchase it, I'll try OpenOffice (or other means to remove that watermark, as I liked the program <_<)

Well, if you have TONS of patience, use the Photoshop CS2 patch tool for that watermark :P

Or, create the diagram you want, and capture a screenshot with ScreenHunter

OOo is definitely a nice, free, and adequate solution.

Edited by kafros, 21 October 2005 - 10:03 AM.


#80 kafros

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 11:09 AM

Ok, I've found it here

http://svn.projectxe...assets/Creative Text Department/

and downloaded it.

May I help you with it? :)

Are there any differences with the html version located in a post above?

Edited by kafros, 21 October 2005 - 11:10 AM.


#81 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 11:11 AM

Ok, I've found it here
http://svn.projectxenocide.com/assets/Creative Text Department/://http://svn.projectxenocide.com/asse...ext Department/://http://svn.projectxenocide.com/asse...ext Department/://http://svn.projectxenocide.com/asse...ext Department/://http://svn.projectxenocide.com/asse...ext Department/
and downloaded it.

May I help you with it? :)

Are there any differences with the html version located in a post above?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you want to you can look for mistakes, I think I got most of them though, and PM them to me, but the general structure is pretty much done, I believe.

#82 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 11:33 AM

Ugh, even with OpenOffice I obviously suck at making these diagrams, it will take me a while (if I manage to do them at all) :(

#83 kafros

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 09:49 AM

I've tried different patterns...

I even tried a "Human tech - Alien Tech" one, but it was too hard to implement.

I've uploaded the latest draft I've been working on. I've thought of a major issue: the "prerequisite arrows". For example, look at Alien Goal:
<prerequisite>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_BREEDING"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_PLASMA_PRINCIPLES"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_ABDUCTIONS"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_RESEARCH"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_HARVEST"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_RETALIATION"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_TERROR"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_INFILTRATION"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_THANATOS:_PROJECT_XENOCIDE"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_MEDICAL_ROOM"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_UFO_CONSTRUCTION"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_BASE"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_PSIONIC_AMPLIFIER"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_NUTRIENTS"/>
<reference xnetid="XNET_BIOLOGICAL_RESEARCH_ROOM"/>
</prerequisite>
I already see a horror web, a spaggeti flowchart if you prefer...

I think that the flowchart should include the basic stuff. For example:
Alien Origins + Paradigm Shift -> Thanatos : Operation Xenocide (correct that in the xml, it says "project" :wink1:) -> Alien Goal

At the end of the tree, I could include mini-trees, like the one above for Alien Goal.

What's your opinion?

Edit : Don't pay too much attention in the "weapons" branch, right now I am looking for a way to implement the most practical but as-complete-as-it-can-be tree.

Edited by kafros, 26 October 2005 - 09:57 AM.


#84 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 09:59 AM

That's looking very good, I have thought of something now, about what you said about mini-trees and syntax diagrams I was taught when studying programming. I guess we could divide the tech tree into separate trees, and those in smaller ones, for example, the main tree be the one that leads the research to Cydonia or Bust (Thanatos: Operation Xenocide), this one will include the different ships up to Vengeance, with subtrees that include the weapon research and different facilities. I have gotten a version of SmartDraw (complete), so I'll try to illustrate my thoughts :)

#85 kafros

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:04 AM

Allright, something closer to my thoughs (and to yours, I hope :P):

Edited by kafros, 26 October 2005 - 10:05 AM.


#86 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:07 AM

The arrows in the requirements for Alien Goal are inverted :)

#87 kafros

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:10 AM

The arrows in the requirements for Alien Goal are inverted :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<_< Grrr...

Definitely :)


But that's minor right now, first of all, I have to make the scaffold, details come second, aesthetics last (but not least :P, right mikker? :wink1:)

#88 mikker

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:18 AM

I have a freeware program called 'grids'. It's ment for flowcharts.

I've been using it for schoolwork involving flowcharts. I'll see if I can use the program for this.

edit: great. I was half way done with it when it crashed on me. Stupid me didn't save. And the program doesn't do backups. Nice.

Edited by mikker, 26 October 2005 - 10:49 AM.

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#89 kafros

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 07:34 AM

Another draft. As you can see, the "upper section" will include the main flowchart ("this" grands "those"), and the lower one will include the subtrees ("this" needs "those").

1) Any better ideas for the structure?
2) Any idea about those arrows and colours?

#90 mikker

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 10:12 AM

1) Any better ideas for the structure?
2) Any idea about those arrows and colours?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


yes.

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#91 kafros

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 11:32 AM


1) Any better ideas for the structure?
2) Any idea about those arrows and colours?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2)Probably you mean monochrome :P. I agree with your point
1) Hmmm... Definitely, that's a simple structure. And actually, it follows 100% the structure of the XML file.

Now, try to implement it with, let's say, Alien Goal :P

#92 mikker

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 01:22 PM


1) Any better ideas for the structure?
2) Any idea about those arrows and colours?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2)Probably you mean monochrome :P. I agree with your point
1) Hmmm... Definitely, that's a simple structure. And actually, it follows 100% the structure of the XML file.

Now, try to implement it with, let's say, Alien Goal :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well, I succeeded with making it with plasma weaponry this way :)

OK, hang on.

Here. I didn't at all of them. That would basicly mean making the entire Xenocide Tech Tree. ;)

It's very easy to modefy the chart once you've made it with this program. But it's very limited. 3 types of boxes, 1 type of writing size and type, and you can only do black stuff (except arrows which turn blue). But that is editable in Paint.

Attached Files


Edited by mikker, 27 October 2005 - 01:52 PM.

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#93 kafros

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 02:03 PM

Well, maybe I over-do it with practicallity and compactity, so that's why I can't fit it in there :P

So, if you don't have a problem with a 7-page-long tech tree which won't include the X-Net folders, then no problem, let it be that way :)

#94 kafros

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 12:18 AM

Any better? :D

I've also noticed something... minor ^_^ :

Hehe :rolleyes:

#95 kafros

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:40 AM

Ok, these drafts are the last ones before the complete version.
Actually, monochrome turned out to be more beautiful :D. Anyway, I can easily change the colour theme for all the project with 1-click, so that's no problem. :)


I have to admit that the tree seems good. Probably not as organised as the template I've imagined, but this template isn't bad either! Maybe change the arrows a bit...

DON'T ask for a specific hierarchy, as you can guess such a thing is IMPOSSIBLE with this template. But, nevertheless, I can fit all information in here with a little bit of effort.

#96 mikker

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 11:12 AM

Looks good.

One comment; Is it possible to remove the arrows? You might want to remove a few here and there.

(and you might want to make the boxes have only 1 size - even though it wastes space, it looks more professional.)

Edited by mikker, 28 October 2005 - 11:34 AM.

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#97 Moriarty

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 12:25 PM

what's that at the bottom about plasma principles, psionic amplifier and alien goal? WTF
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#98 kafros

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 05:20 AM

Looks good.

One comment; Is it possible to remove the arrows? You might want to remove a few here and there.

(and you might want to make the boxes have only 1 size - even though it wastes space, it looks more professional.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks :)

Which ones? I think that the ones which should be removed are those behind Alien Origins (live aliens)

Well, Xenium Reactor, Xenium 122, ANS and Alien Composites will be just like Alien Nutrients, breeding etc. I told you that's a draft, I will work on aesthetics later.

what's that at the bottom about plasma principles, psionic amplifier and alien goal?  WTF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look at the previous drafts :P
I used the boxes on the bottom of the penultimate draft in order to create the new template. I don't like doing the same thing twice, especially if it involves a lot of typing.

Res:<topic> ==> Item:<Topic> ==> X-Net:<topic>... and put "Paradigm Shift: Offensive Operations" at the place of <topic>... and do the same for 7 other topics...
GIMME A BREAK :P

#99 kafros

kafros

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 04:07 AM

*Buump! Ouch, my head...*

Any progress on this?

#100 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 10:41 AM

*Buump! Ouch, my head...*

Any progress on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, but your post reminded me of it, I'm working on it right now, it's nearly finished, will post it later today, probably tonight :)