Weapon Balance Suggestions

[Jamaru]

I noticed that the original X-com stats is back the way it should be. I think the Heavy Plasma in modified X-com really suck. I think the heavy plasma shouldn't been downgraded in the first place because it disrupts the balance between humans and aliens. The balance of the heavy plasma should be 600 cost and 300 for a clip. Reason why is that since the sectoids have lower cost than powersuits they can wield more powerful weapons like heavy plasma than the powersuits which it should be. The heavy plasma may seem overpowered but it really is no different than plasma rifles. Powersuits can withstand at least one shot of it and thats the same for mutons. Plasma Rifles are weaker but can kill in two shots like the heavy plasma on mutons. For sectoids case which is usually one shot kill for both plasma rifle and heavy and that's about the same for T-shirts. Far as I seen on the modified weapons which it breaks the X-com feel which is why there shouldn't be a modified X-com set. Heavy Plasma, Heavy laser are sniper weapons which is ridiculous. Well the heavy laser does suck if you don't use it right. Its designed for close-ups which they don't suck that much in bases. The Heavy Plasma shouldn't be downgraded because its a high tech/alien weapon which is suppose to be deadly. The costs of the heavy plasma and clip I mentioned is already set which is good.

Besides the large rocket is way worser than the heavy plasma.

The large rocket should cost 600 and the rocket launcher should be at least 300 of cost. The stats should stay but the cost needs to be highered. That thing could easily wipe my sectoids if the cost isn't highered which isn't very fair.

The large rocket is the real issue in the original stats for X-com1. Please can someone higher the cost?

[Kratos]

If you don't like the modified weapons, then don't play them by ripping them out of your inventory. Otherwise, I see you are wasting your breathe with all this "get rid of modified weapons" nonsense.

[Hobbes]

If you don't like the modified weapons, then don't play them by ripping them out of your inventory. Otherwise, I see you are wasting your breathe with all this "get rid of modified weapons" nonsense.

 

An even better answer than the one I had started to write last night concerning this.

 

Heavy Lasers can be useful on the original game at close range because of the way the damage is dealt (it is not cumulative on the armor as it is here), which can range from 0 to 200% of the weapon's power, and when it exceeds the armor value it removes much less armor and instead reduces the health right away.

 

The original Heavy Plasma is a lot more powerful than the Rocket Launcher. In a turn you can fire 7 shots of 115 power, while the Launcher only allows for 1 shot of 100 power (although its effects spread through a large area). For 900 points you get a heavy plasma with 35 shots. For 1000 points you get a RL plus 3 large rockets. Assuming no splash damage from the rocket hit (which can be done by the simple act of keeping a safety distance from your soldiers), the RL doesn't match the HP not by far.

 

And as for the Sectoids being vulnerable to it....well for the fact that you can have a bunch of them sporting Heavy Plasmas because of their low cost, you need a disadvantage to balance the fact that you can just place a lot of them and stay waiting for reaction shots. For one thing it forces you to keep a distance between them, preventing lines of reaction units, but so do Cannons. And the fact that it costs a lot to bring a RL and extra rockets (5 rockets + launcher = 1600 points) already restricts them a lot.

 

Bottom line: if the other player brings rockets you will have a tougher time... or not, depending on how well he uses them. And their current cost already restricts their use a lot.

[[Blehm 98]]

yes, what hobbes said is the exact reason as to why i do not like the original heavy plasma and heavy laser stats, the cumulative damage sort of makes accuracy more important than getting past the armor in the first place

 

 

And overall, i think that hobbes has a very good point there, i think the rockets are fine the way they are

[Kratos]

Topic changed from "Weapon Balance Problems" to "Weapon Balance Suggestions", the thread is not really about problems but suggestions. We don't want to mislead our comments do we? :wink1:

 

Ontopic: The original x-com weapons' statistics are crap like sectoids, nuff said.

 

Offtopic: The aliens always have balance issues don't they abyssion.

Flying sectoids, ub3r heavy plasmas,

Edited August 21, 2005 by Kratos

[Violazr]

The original x-com weapons' stats aren't "crap" - they are fine in their original purpose of showing a technological evolution.

But that, of course, requires them to be unbalanced.

 

 

btw fire rockets are much more cost-effective than large ones, especailly with the damage the fire does in the betas.

Edited August 23, 2005 by Violazr

[Jamaru]

Well I think the heavy plasma's auto shot should be restored in the modified set. With sectoids carrying them would really help against flying\power suits. Hobbes the only reason I could think of why you would hate the idea is because you hate seeing your powersuits being clobbered by sectoids or just instant kills on your powersuits. Powersuits still can take one shot but sometimes its an instant just like sectoids get killed which evens up almost. Still Powersuits have a better chance on surviving than sectoids which would even the odds. How can a heavy plasma be more powerful than a rocket launcher? A rocket launcher has a way bigger killing than the heavy plasma. I'd say give it a cost of 500 for the heavy plasma and the clip 200 in the modified and original X-com set with auto shot and see what happens. Edited August 25, 2005 by Abyssion

[Neithan]

well this time i disagree with u Abyssion... modified weapon set is perfectly balanced and doesnt need any major changes. If u want an auto fire use plasma rifle it takes down powersuits as well

[Hobbes]

Hobbes the only reason I could think of why you would hate the idea is because you hate seeing your powersuits being clobbered by sectoids or just instant kills on your powersuits. Powersuits still can take one shot but sometimes its an instant just like sectoids get killed which evens up almost. Still Powersuits have a better chance on surviving than sectoids which would even the odds.

 

. In case you haven't noticed, I am not a fanatic of using only power/fly suits, unlike your fixation with Sectoids, since I have teams of all sorts of units (with only mutons, only standard armor, power suits with mutons and sectoids, etc.). In fact, I consider teams with only power suits very vulnerable when they are outnumbered, but it takes a skilled opponent to know how to use their advantage of numbers.

And if both Sectoids and Power Suits can be killed with a single shot, as you mention, then what's the point of having auto fire, when an aimed/snap shot can kill both? And this happens because the damage deviation is now 100% for all weapons on the X-COM and UFO2000 set, meaning that a shot can either inflict 0 damage or the double of its value.

But the main reason why Heavy Plasma should not have auto fire is to minimize the effects of a tactic that you are always complaining about, namely long range sniping.

 

How can a heavy plasma be more powerful than a rocket launcher? A rocket launcher has a way bigger killing than the heavy plasma.

 

Another example: put two units 5 squares from one another, one equipped with a rocket launcher, the other with a heavy plasma. Who is more powerful, the one that can shoot and risk killing itself, along with the other unit, or the one equipped with a heavy plasma, that can shoot at close range without the risk of getting itself killed?

Or yet, another example: put 2 single units fighting one another, one with a Heavy Plasma, the other with a Rocket. For both to hit, you will need to use Aimed shot, but it will restrict more the Rocket guy's movement, plus every time he fires he needs to spend an additional 15 tus to reload, making it almost impossible to fire Aimed shots on successive turns. But the Heavy Plasma guy? Well he can fire a shot of 115 power while only using 55% TUs with almost the same accuracy (110% to 115%) leaving him with TUs to move, while the Rocket will have to reload and move with its remaining 25% tus. Who do you think has the advantage on both situations?

 

PS - The damage deviation of the UFO2000 weapons set needs to be thought over because it increases the randomness and difficulty (you basically don't know what to expect of a hit, from grenades to plasmas, since it can give you value ranging from 0 to 200%). This will seriously modify the gameplay and while it is good to add some unpredictability, one might ask if 100% deviation is not too much.

[Violazr]

100% is definitely too much. Especailly the possibility of having near 0% effectiveness.

 

Is it possible to have different deviations for different weapons?

 

Because it's feasible that a bullet hits either just flesh or a vital organ, so a 50% devation of damage would be ok.

A direct hit with a large rocket, however, is going to blow a wooden wall / person away no matter what.

[Jamaru]

To Hobbes: Well you can still easily have a effective blind shot with a large rocket way more than a heavy plasma especially with the massive range of a large rocket. I've got wiped in one to three turns with those dead shot large rockets no matter where I place my guys. The next thing is that if the heavy plasma had auto-shot then sectoids could stand a chance against high armored units. If its too powerful then why not increase the cost high enough? Making it high enough to discourage people from using it too much. I don't mind not having auto shot on the heavy plasma in the ufo2000 set because it has its unique and new. The way the heavy plasma looks in standard, it looks automatic. How about instead of 115, how about 100 and make it expensive. We should try it and if its not enough then making a little more expensive. I'd rather have the heavy plasma be more expensive than being downgraded. Heavy Plasma suppose to be more powerful than the plasma rifle but the heavy plasma is too weak compared to the plasma rifle. I see your point and since its very powerful like you said then why not restore it but make it 15 damage down and more expensive enough. We should try it. Edited August 26, 2005 by Abyssion

[Neithan]

Well you can still easily have a effective blind shot with a large rocket way more than a heavy plasma especially with the massive range of a large rocket. I've got wiped in one to three turns with those dead shot large rockets no matter where I place my guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah i almost got him in one turn with RLs. Only 4 sectoids out of 15 survived the first round (Sorry Abyssion )...

Never could do the same with HP Auto Shots. Maybe a good think would be to try switching attributes of PR and HP (to make Plasma Pifle a sniper weapon and Heavy Plasma more heavy ) Nothing can happen when we just try

EDIT: But i really love the modified weapon set, no matter if the HP has no auto fire.

Edited August 26, 2005 by Neithan

[Jamaru]

Yeah i almost got him in one turn with RLs. Only 4 sectoids out of 15 survived the first round (Sorry Abyssion  )...

Never could do the same with HP Auto Shots. Maybe a good think would be to try switching attributes of PR and HP (to make Plasma Pifle a sniper weapon and Heavy Plasma more heavy  ) Nothing can happen when we just try

 

That sounds good like a good idea. We should try it.

[Hobbes]

Yeah i almost got him in one turn with RLs. Only 4 sectoids out of 15 survived the first round (Sorry Abyssion  )...

Never could do the same with HP Auto Shots. Maybe a good think would be to try switching attributes of PR and HP (to make Plasma Pifle a sniper weapon and Heavy Plasma more heavy  ) Nothing can happen when we just try

 

That sounds good like a good idea. We should try it.

 

Don't even think of that. I thought this discussion was about Heavy Plasma vs. Rocket Launcher but now the Plasma Rifle is being thrown into the mix as well. There's one saying that I have concerning weapon packs: if it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. It's more likely that you will end up unbalancing the set since all items are related to one another.

 

Yes, you can have effective blind shots that take out several units but in that case it is a matter of tactics. If you place unarmored units close to buildings that can be hit you're already risking yourself to blind shots from Rockets or Cannons, and it gets even worse if you group them. And those kinda tactics can be easily avoided by a proper unit placement, especially on the betas where the shots don't explode anymore at the map edges. If you increase the cost of rockets just because unarmored and badly placed units can't take them, then you will have people complaining that rockets are too expensive (like they did before, on several posts), so you get back to square 1, where you have weapons that aren't used because they aren't cost effective. And if Rockets are changed, then you would also have to change the cost of the Stun Launcher, because on the beta they can fire alien grenades with almost the same power by almost the same cost.

It gets back to the argument I've said against the increase to 20 units: if you want unarmored units to better survive, either increase map size to 6x6 when playing 15k, or play 5x5 maps with 10k. The reason why they aren't surviving in 15k is because you are playing with the wrong settings, not because the weapons are undercost.

 

Likewise, setting auto to Heavy Plasmas isn't anything new. I've even proposed it several months ago, check my post numbered 453 on this report on bugtracker. And read the next post 454 to figure out why I dropped that proposal.

 

To Violazr: the damage settings of the Modified X-COM Weapons already have different damage deviations set. The problem was that DiversanT thought that all original weapons had 100% deviation on the original game (which only applied to Plasmas) and Abyssion simply copied those stats to the UFO2000 set. But the UFO2000 now has the different deviations.

[Neithan]

i agree ModifiedWS is perfectly balanced...and never said rockets prices need to be changed, that rocket killing game was supposed to be so deadly, cos i took 15 RL

[Violazr]

I guess Abyssion's problem is that everybody KNOWS he is using only loads of well-armed sectoids.

- So he shouldn't be surprised if people pick the one most effective tactic to counter that...

 

Talk about predictability.

 

 

P.S.: I don't think any weapon should have a deviation more than, say, 80%.

It's just no good when a ball of immensely hot plasma hits somebody, but does near to no damage at all. That's what misses are for.

Edited August 26, 2005 by Violazr

[[Blehm 98]]

In Xcom, the 100%+ or - damage randomness was made specifically to make high armor very strong, but also succeptable to 1 shot kills. However, with one shot of a Heavy Plasmain this game into a muton(with UFO2000 stats) can do 0-230 damage, and it will only need to roll 150 damage to guarentee and instant kill, because armor does not work the same

 

In Xcom, that same shot, against a muton with 70 front armor(UFO2000 stats again) not only would the heavy plasmas damage have to roll higher than the 70 to do any damage whatsoever, it would also have to roll 150 to overcome the armor, but Xcom is a lot more biast towards the 100-130 range

In UFO2000, i really doubt that is true, which would make doing 115 damage just as common as doing 0 damage or doing 230

 

so the 100% randomness fits Xcom, but not UFO2000

[Neithan]

I don't think any weapon should have a deviation more than, say, 80%.

It's just no good when a ball of immensely hot plasma hits somebody, but does near to no damage at all. That's what misses are for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree... why to make the game frustrating. Imagine u and your opponent have only one soldier left (lets say sectoid) and u r on move... u spot him... walk to him nearest u can and hit him with heavy plasma shot from about 3 square distance and nothing happen to him because of a deviation... isnt it frustrating?

I say no deviation at all 'That's what misses are for' as Violazr said before.

Edited August 27, 2005 by Neithan

[[Blehm 98]]

the deviation is put in specifically to add some randomness, its a lot more fun when 1 shot might kill now, but later it might take 3

 

but like i said, the UFO2000 number generator i think is not biast towards any numbers, so the deviation should be a lot smaller

[Jamaru]

Don't even think of that. I thought this discussion was about Heavy Plasma vs. Rocket Launcher but now the Plasma Rifle is being thrown into the mix as well. There's one saying that I have concerning weapon packs: if it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. It's more likely that you will end up unbalancing the set since all items are related to one another.

 

Like it would unbalance the set if the heavy plasma had auto shot back. Besides thats what the cost value is for. Another thing, the plasma rifle already acts like a sniper weapon so why would we need a downgraded heavy plasma to be a second sniper weapon for crying out loud. I do like the modified set too but the only thing that annoys me is that the plasma rifle is stronger than the heavy plasma which lacks auto. The heavy plasma is an alien weapon which shouldn't be stereotyped like a puny conventional weapon plus it isn't the strongest plasma weapon like it should be.

Edited August 27, 2005 by Abyssion

[[Blehm 98]]

It does more damage and was a lot more accurate

 

the plasma rifle is a lot more accurate at close range and the heavy plasma at longer ranges

 

a different in 4% accuracy is enough to look at seriously

[Jamaru]

I compared the accuracy for the plasma rifle and heavy plasma. The plasma rifle has a lot more on accuracy on auto and snap. So thats why the plasma rifle is stronger currently. My conclusion is that the plasma rifle is more accurate. Edited August 27, 2005 by Abyssion

[[Blehm 98]]

for 80 accuracy the Plasma rifle has 93% aimed and 86% snap

Heavy plasma is 97% aimed and i think 86% snap

 

for sniping the heavy plasma is far superiour because it has the advantage of a bit of extra firepower on its end

[Hobbes]

The heavy plasma is an alien weapon which shouldn't be stereotyped like a puny conventional weapon plus it isn't the strongest plasma weapon like it should be.

 

I've had enough of this fixation into alien uber weapons and of a discussion that I've engaged over and over. Like it or not, the heavy plasma on the modified set is a dedicated sniper weapon (the best aimed accuracy and the biggest power). And the whole point of the set being balanced is to force people NOT to solely use one type of weapon, with differences in cost and stats. Which is the thing that is bothering you because this way you can't use the Heavy Plasma for close range reaction shots, but that is exactly the type of usage that is meant to prevent.

 

PS - In no doubt this discussion would go on forever until you got what you wanted. From now on I am simply ignoring this subject (like the rest of the people here are doing, since they don't see anything wrong with the Heavy Plasma as it is).

Edited August 27, 2005 by Hobbes

[Tursiops]

I guess Abyssion's problem is that everybody KNOWS he is using only loads of well-armed sectoids.

- So he shouldn't be surprised if people pick the one most effective tactic to counter that...

 

If that is true, Maybe instead of changing weapon sets we could add an armored sectoid of some sort -- the explanation could be that they carry some psionic or plasma shield? Maybe what I've said is blasphemy to the die hard x-comers out there, but isn't soldier diversity as important as weapon diversity?

[Violazr]

I suggested that once - to fill the gap the mutons left when their armor was upgraded.

 

There's nothing wrong with the standard sectoids however. If you want to buy all the great weapons, you have to cope with cheap, unarmored soldiers.

It's a valid tactic - but it's also a good thing if any tactic can be beaten with the right counter-tactic.

[Jamaru]

To Hobbes: Hmm...the heavy plasma should not have auto after all. I thought it was going neat but it didn't turn out like I hoped. Since other people didn't like the auto shot it occured to me that if it had auto then that would cause an imbalance plus it felt kind of dull when it had auto. I do now see what you mean Hobbes. Sorry about for not listening earlier. I should listen to you more often.