ART - XCAPs

[Moriarty]

the "Fusion" turret barrel (the name that has been agreed on now is actually "Gravity Distortion Launcher" or "GDL") should probably be shorter and wider. take a look at

craft cannon wip

and

hand-held "blaster launcher"

and while you're at it, read

Gravity Distortion Launcher/Drone text

 

 

actually there is no recent progress on the alien gravity distortion launcher... but then again, the XCAP uses a human-built system anyway. still, the technology involved does not need a long barrel, since the projectile is self-propelled. it would probably even be feasible to just have a vertical barrel-stump, and no real turret at all... then the first direction-of-flight for the Gravity Distortion Drone would always be "up"

[Vaaish]

Looking good. I think though with the auto cannon one we should go to a acutal cannon, not the miniguns even though they look cool Same for the rocket version, having an internal magazine fed version will be infinitely more accessible once it goes in the game and we have to fire and reload the external missiles... maybe a turrent that looks more like a TOW or patriot missile sustem?

 

CTD: shold we be able to manufacture all of the Xcaps with whatever weapon we choose? eg we have the hull and then just attach the cannons?

Edited October 15, 2005 by Vaaish

[Guest Azrael]

Our concepts have a common chassis for the Rocket, Cannon and Laser XCAPs, and a common hover chassis for the Plasma and Fusion

[eamon]

Thanks for the great feedback I will work more on the sensors and other attachments later but for now I would like to get the tank and weapons right first...

 

Here is the next generation... I have made the Cannon, Rocket, and Laser "ground" and the Plasma and Fusion "hover".

 

I know what you mean about the rockets... is this better

 

-Eamon

[Guest Azrael]

Very nice eamon, I'm liking it, just another comment on the prongs in the plasma cannon, they should look something like this:

(Shot from Plasma Cannon)

[Moriarty]

looks very good!

 

you could probably save some polys if you delete the sphere-segment on the sensor thing (can be replaced by a texture later) and also the inset on the sides of the caterpillar thingies.

[Vaaish]

looks very good!

 

you could probably save some polys if you delete the sphere-segment on the sensor thing (can be replaced by a texture later) and also the inset on the sides of the caterpillar thingies. 

 

there is no need.. he is under the limit for this since it's gonna take the place of 4 human armor meshes. .

 

Eamon: how about sloping the sides of the turret a bit so it isn't just vertical all the time? amd maybe bulking it up a bit. great work so far.

Edited October 15, 2005 by Vaaish

[mikker]

wait, didn't Demich make all the xcaps? They looked so real nice.

[Vaaish]

yes he did. however the models I have are messed up when I import them and I only have one chasis and no model for the hover version. Thats why they need to be rebuilt. Edited October 15, 2005 by Vaaish

[fux0r666]

Here is an image that I was searching for the other day and I could not find.

 

Actually, I was looking for a photograph, but these OFP screens do the thing justice just the same.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/sniperskull/VBS1/dxdshot1112173943.jpg

 

The vehicle is called the M113-ADATS if you want to find more pics.

[eamon]

Well here is the next set of upgrades... I have made the turret(s) bigger and tried to fix the plasma cannon...

 

The "rocket" tank is made from a picture of a patriot missile battery... if you all like the round look to the rocket tank as shown above I will change it to that.

 

I have attached the current set of model files in a .zip (they are in .3ds) as I can't make them into .max

 

-Eamon

tank_3ds.zip

[Vaaish]

hmm.... I think the turrets are too tall vertically, especially the hover and rocked xcaps have a really high center of gravity that could make them easier to flip over. I think we might want to make the turret not quite as tall and the triangular shape of the xcap not as accentuated. Finally I think the rocket turret is too waide for the tread base looks a little top heave... maybe make a custom fit turret different than the other models?

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is you have a great chasis for the hover and tracked version, just the turret themselves look like they were taked from another aromored vehicle and attached as an after thought. Can we tr a more integrated turret that flows with the contours of the chasis a bit better?

 

sheesh... thats sounds nebulous....

Edited October 19, 2005 by Vaaish

[Moriarty]

 

exactly how big/small are they? could you include the reference block 1*1*2m in one of the screenshots? or perhaps a 1*1m grid or something?

[eamon]

Well as far as the change in the shape... if you could be a little more specific or send me some concept art... I am not sure I get what you mean...

 

I will try to rework the turret but I don't know what I'm shooting for...

 

But I do see what you mean about the "rocket" turret and will make changes.

 

Now, as for how big the tank is... I don't know the exact dimensions but I was told 4 game squares...

 

XX

XX

 

-Eamon

[Moriarty]

ah yes, that's what I was looking for. I think the size is quite good.

 

 

as for the rocket turret (and the others, too, for that matter) : the tank weapon is always loosely based on a human-carried counterpart, so why not start with that in terms of sizing... I don't know if there is a model already for the rocket launcher's ammunition, but it can't be very long missiles, because they have to fit into a backpack

 

so why don't you shorten the missile launcher thingies a bit?

 

(you could also experiment with a slightly different design, since the missile launcher will never be able to fire more than one missile at a time. so you could make it a box (containing the ammunition and feed mechanism) with one launch tube at the side / on the top / on the bottom. or a prism-shaped one (triangular in front view) with the launch tube along one edge.)

Edited October 19, 2005 by Moriarty

[fux0r666]

as for the rocket turret (and the others, too, for that matter) : the tank weapon is always loosely based on a human-carried counterpart, so why not start with that in terms of sizing... I don't know if there is a model already for the rocket launcher's ammunition, but it can't be very long missiles, because they have to fit into a backpack

 

Not true. They are the same types of weapons, but need not be derived from one another. A missile this site would be more of an ATGM or a recoilless rifle. The rocket launcher for the humans would be most analogous to the RPG-7, as it is a light weight, man portable, reusable rocket launcher. There is nothing about a LAW that is similar to a TOW other than they are both fired from tubes.

[Moriarty]

well, that's why I said "loosely based". I know it's not true in RL, but inside the game it works this way as far as I can tell. and why shouldn't it? it is set in the near future. If I were a developer of XCAP technology, I would go for existing systems when looking for armament, and the XCorps rocket launcher appears to be the best small missile launcher available.

 

(and btw, this would also save the modelers and programmers some trouble, because they can just re-use the rocket launcher stuff for the XCAP rocket launcher)

[fux0r666]

well, that's why I said "loosely based". I know it's not true in RL, but inside the game it works this way as far as I can tell. and why shouldn't it? it is set in the near future.

 

In xenocide? Or in Xcom? These are different things. Please do not confuse them.

 

If I were a developer of XCAP technology, I would go for existing systems when looking for armament, and the XCorps rocket launcher appears to be the best small missile launcher available.

 

Yeah, like a TOW or somethign that cannot normally be handheld. Preferably the art would mirror the weapon attributes.

 

(and btw, this would also save the modelers and programmers some trouble, because they can just re-use the rocket launcher stuff for the XCAP rocket launcher)

 

Have you even seen the rocket launcher model?

 

I would not like to subscribe to your newsletter. Eamon has his instructions from Vaaish. Let's let him do his thing, and not fill his head with easier ways to achieve a lesser end product.

 

Thanks.

[Moriarty]

I would not like to subscribe to your newsletter.  Eamon has his instructions from Vaaish.  Let's let him do his thing, and not fill his head with easier ways to achieve a lesser end product.

 

Thanks.

 

do I sense a bit of hostility here?

 

perhaps you are right, but I was only trying to help.

 

I hereby amend my previous statements to just say that I think the best way to modify the missile launcher turret to reduce its apparent overweight would be to shorten the missile launchers.

 

...and although I did look at the handheld missile launcher model thread, I did have some trouble finding which of the models was the one actually considered "final".

[fux0r666]

No, not hostility. You're sensing a general irritation with a traditional over-participation of CTD 'staff' in the AWD 'office.' I just really think that too many chefs kill the dish. It has happened before and it was one of the worst times for the AWD. Seriously, it was a hostile environment to the creative process.

[Moriarty]

really? hmmm. perhaps it is a result of a general feeling that the AWD staff does not participate enough in the CTD... I mean really, there have been countless occasions where we wrote something only to find out a few days later that the model now looks completely different and is in no way compatible with some of the general ideas of the text. and since the general rule is "art overrides text", that always means heavy re-writing for us...

 

for the creative process, it would really be nicer to have more communication, don't you think?

[Vaaish]

I leave for 8 hours.... anyway.

 

Can you Moriarty and Fux can you continue your chat in PM, I'd like to keep the topicfrom digressing to far.

 

Moriarty, while it's good to have fresh ideas and input on what we do even I'm confused about what it is you are trying to get across about the rocket Xcap. If you want to try to explain it better, please feel free to PM me on it.

 

Eamon: give me a few I'll try to show you what I mean.

[Vaaish]

ok eamon... please compare these edits to the screenshots you posted... primary changes: the hover version isn't as tall and the back of the turret now melds to back of the vehicle. The tracked version now isn't as tall so there should be less chance of it falling over when it fires, and again the back of theturret melds to the back of the vehicle.

 

if you make the changes to to the hover turret you should be able to replace the tracked turrets with the new hover turret and tweak it to fit right.

[eamon]

I have reworked the body of both of the tanks... The rocket turret still needs more work, but now all the turrets go with the body better.

 

Could some one drop a picture of the way we want the turret of the rocket tank to look like...

 

-Eamon

 

P.S. if I do not make sense (it is because I am tired)

[fux0r666]

That tracked tank is coming along nicely!

[Moriarty]

yes, really nice. I'm wondering about one thing, though: what will be the range of rotation freedom for the turret? because if it can rotate up to 180° either left or right, the barrel will probably stick out of the 2x2 tiles area when rotated all the way back, resulting in weird situations like the barrel protruding through a wall.

 

(and, if I may say so, I liked the shape of the previous hover chassis better. why did you change it?)

[Vaaish]

Eamon, the tracked version looks pretty good, alot more built together. why do you add some more detail to the chasis, head lamps, access pannels, armor plating. if you need some help look up the M1a1 Abrams MBT and see some of the stuff that gets put on the chasis.

 

For the hover Xcap, I don't think it needed a completely new chasis, take a look a t that pic I posted I really didn't make maky drastic changes to the model. I think the look you had for it before was the way to go. If you can revert to that shape forthe hover scap it would be great.

[Vaaish]

Eamon... I took your 3ds model of the hover tank and edited it.

 

Here is what I was trying to show in the other image I posted previously.

[eamon]

Well I'm back to the first hover tank... and I like it too.

 

The tracked version now has some details... like... head-lights, back access panel, and track armor... keep the feedback coming... I do have one question... how much detail will be model and how much texture?

 

By "job" has been stressful this week and if I disappear for a few days I am probably deployed to "hurricane relief" some where...

 

-Eamon

[Vaaish]

The hover and tracked versions look pretty good IMO, and I'd concentrate on their armaments. Most noticably the plasma cannon etc don't really match up with the existing human craft cannon concepts. I would recommend checking out the craft weapons thread to get a better idea of what they needto look like. Also that sensor pod on the hover tank looks a little large in relation to the turret... lets shrink that down a bit more.

 

As far as poly vs texture, you can put as much detail in as will fit below the 1500 to 2k poly limit.

[eamon]

Okay to be honest I looked through the craft weapons thread but there are so many changes and variations that I am not sure what is up and what is down??

 

For the Laser

 

For the Cannon

 

For the Plasma

 

For the Rocket I did not really see anything solid... is the one I made okay?

 

-Eamon

 

*EDIT* would it be easier to send me a .3ds of the weapons and just have me modify them to fit the tank?

Edited October 22, 2005 by eamon

[Vaaish]

your rocket and cannon are fine... the on; ones that neededto match were the plasma nad laser

[mikker]

I'm still adjusting the plasma.

 

And that cannon is quite beyond its expiration date.

[eamon]

Well it is time for a "backup" of the tanks so far...

 

-Eamon

tank2_3ds.zip

Edited October 23, 2005 by eamon

[Vaaish]

lookin good. beyon a few possible tweaks for the weapons on the hover xcaps, I think those are good to go, unless you have more detail you want to add.

 

The tracked versions are bothering me a little, see how the turret on the Rocket version overlaps the track? that helps pull the model together into a unit. the other tracked ones look too segmented with how the tracks join up the the rest of the chasis.

 

I think when you added the track armor it made the chasis appear wider than it is... how about either removing the armor from the tracks or overlapping the chasis a bit kinda like these image I've attached. This is a rough sketch just to show the general idea, how you implement it is up to you.

[eamon]

Okay... back to the old drawing board so to speak...

 

I have modified the existing tread versions to "bring it together" as one mean peace of hardware.

 

---Tread Cannon---

---Tread Laser---

---Tread Rocket---

 

But as this Tread version came out looking allot like a conventional tank, Vaaish and I decided that a more "robot" looking version might be in order... first are pictures of the real thing today...

 

---new robot tread---

---new robot weapons---

---Robot Cannon---

---Robot Laser---

---Robot Rocket---

 

so take a look and let us know what you think...

 

-Eamon

Edited November 27, 2005 by eamon

[Vaaish]

That turned out much more interesting than I anticipated. For animation reasons though I think we should remove the front tab treads and because these are much larger than the micro bots and shouldn't need them to help negotiate terrain. I do like the shape of the forward treads better than the main treads so lets try swapping them.

 

The weapons systems are also mixed. I like the cannon and laser versions, but the rocket version is a little too awkward. Lets move bact toward more of a patriot or hydra launch system. The turrets themselves are nice, but I think we can burn more polys on the supports to make them look a little more interesting.

 

I really like the direction they are moving though.

[eamon]

I know what you mean about the rocket version... here is another version of the "robots".

 

-Eamon

[Vaaish]

thats better.

 

whats the little grid thing thats in the center of each of the turrets?

 

I also don't think they need to sit that high up, see the attached pic fow what I changed.(dropped one of pyramids off the turret base, angledthe back of the center iece ofthe turret, pulledthe chasis casing up farther in the front and back, put in a random detail piece to break up that chnk of space, and extended the back of the turret mount)

 

I like the idea of keeping the assumetrical launcher on the rocket version but it should be attached to the turret the same way the other weapons are. a good example would be the TOW launcher on the M2.. might even provide a good look for the launcher.

 

 

It'll also help us by removing those hydrolics which will ba pain to animate in game

Edited November 27, 2005 by Vaaish

[fux0r666]

I like this direction. Very nice.

[Moriarty]

I don't know how our game will deal with the point of origin of weapons fire (muzzle defined per model might be too much trouble, especially when dealing with line-of-sight / bullet path)

 

so for simplicity's sake, we might want to have the XCAP weapon at about the same height as a normal soldier's weapon would be? I think the "new" version with the lowered turret is just about right for that, although I'm not sure.

 

(just my two cents)

 

I like these new versions. especially the "slim" chassis and the asymmetrical turrets.

[eamon]

Thanks for the good feedback.

 

I tried a new type of look for the rocket and I really like it but it comes with a price tag. The version with this new launcher is 2966 tri-gons (for the whole tank). The other two are under 2000.

 

I have added an access panel to the front and a heat sink to the back... oh.. and an ammo spool to the auto-cannon.

 

-Eamon

 

*Edit* the little grid thing that's in the center of each of the turrets had no purpose so I took it off.

Edited November 27, 2005 by eamon

[[Mad]]

I like them! Especially the heatsink, this is just what I missed before. They were too "naked"

 

A few comments:

1) Maybe the barrel of the Autocannon is a little bit too long? I don't know, It just came to me when watching the model. Maybe it's the whole weapon, together with the repeater housing. It just seems all alittle bit too long for me.

 

2) I'm not into modelling. Will the angularity be attenuated in the texturing process? Especialy the housing of the autocannon seems so "squary"...

[ATeX]

Those are amazing!

 

 

One small hint: The barrels need to be able to move up and down as well. At this moment, they are fixed so they can only rotate around the vertical (Y) axis.

 

Imagine yourself wanting to shoot down an alien on a rooftop with these.

 

Anyhow, great work!

 

 

 

cheers,

 

Thomas

Edited November 27, 2005 by ATeX

[Vaaish]

I really like those turrets and the treads. I think the only thing we need to work on is the chassis.

 

if you go back to the pic you posted of the actual robots, see how there appearsto be a casing on the chasis that almost comes up to the level of the tracks....lets try to work that idea into the chasis so it looks less flimsy.

 

For the missile varient, I do like that turret. maybe if you can reduce the number of sides on each tube without it looking too bad we can save enough... also maybe put caps on the front covering the missiles or show the tip of the missile to keep from having to model the entire inside of the tube.

 

For the canon one, lets remove the magazine on the side... it looks better without it

 

I think these are really close, keep p the good work.

 

Atex: the cannon itself can rotate vertically independantly of the horizontal turret rotation... very similar to modern day tanks.

Edited November 27, 2005 by Vaaish

[ATeX]

In that case, I didn't say anything

 

 

cheers,

 

Thomas

[eamon]

You were right about the chassis it looks much better with it not so flimsy. I took out allot of the polys in the rocket turret and so that tank is now 1952 tri-gons so I am just under...

 

So here are more pics and a .zip with the current version of each of the robot tanks in .3ds

 

-Eamon

Robots1_3ds.zip

[Vaaish]

cool I think that just about does it. I like the clip placement on the cannon version much better now.

 

It looks like you have a few polys to burn, can we use them to round the backs of the gun mounts a bit? And extend the back of the laser cannon mount so that it counterbalances the front of the weapon.

[Guest Azrael]

Impressive work, eamon

[eamon]

It looks like you have a few polys to burn, can we use them to round the backs of the gun mounts a bit?

 

Well I fixed the laser version (extend the back of the laser cannon mount)... but as to the gun mounts... I don't know what to add to them. I had made them that way to save polys and to give it an encased or enclosed feel... I only have like 50 tri-gons (25 polys) left...

 

I know that I will not be doing any animation for the game but I do need to work on how the turrets and gun mounts move. right now the turret can go 360 deg but not if the gun mounts are turned up... I think I will have to make the part of the Chassis that meets the turret thinner/smaller. Take a look at this test...

 

--test animation--

 

Anyway down to the nuts and bolts... how would you like the model? I can send it any of three ways:

 

1.) Each all in one piece (3)

2.) Chassis (1) and turrets (3) separately

3.) Chassis (1), turret (1), and gun mounts (3) separately

 

-Eamon