206 replies to this topic

[Astyanax]

That's a very convincing argument, Robo Dojo. I was sort of thinking along the same lines, too.

Since people have a gut-reaction to the phrase "black hole", why not take it out? The weapon can still cause a severely destructive gravitic distortion for as long as the Xenium supply lasts, but as long as it's not called a "black hole", I don't think anyone will object.

[Blehm 98]

actually, anything can become a black hole or neutron star, just it would need to be a way way WAY smaller size. A black hole with the mass of a mountain would be approximately the size of an atom.
Also, black holes do not go away. They stay until they explode, at which point i don't think we need to worry about life anymore
black holes do not work, the laws of physics state so, once something reaches that point of infinite density, it holds itself together, until, like i said, it explodes.

I am happy with the explanation that the xenium fuels a reactor that causes gravitational distortion, as long as we get rid of teh xenium idea

[Astyanax]

Also, black holes do not go away. They stay until they explode, at which point i don't think we need to worry about life anymore

Actually, black holes can also "evaporate" (Hawking radiation), albeit very slowly.

I am happy with the explanation that the xenium fuels a reactor that causes gravitational distortion, as long as we get rid of teh xenium idea

I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly. Are you saying that there should be no Xenium in the weapon at all?

[Blehm 98]

uh, astyanax, they dissipate very slowly, getting smaller and smaller, but after they get to a certain size they explode very violently - i never said they don't dissipate

[Astyanax]

Ah, I misunderstood. Sorry.

But as far as I can tell, the end of a black hole's lifetime is all theoretical. Some say that the black hole vanishes with a "burst of radiation", others say it dissipates completely, I don't really know.

In any case, which version of the text are we looking at again?

[Tsereve]

I am happy with the explanation that the xenium fuels a reactor that causes gravitational distortion, as long as we get rid of teh xenium idea

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, I see, so we'll have a Xenium Reactor, just no Xenium. Makes perfect sense now. Or wait. . .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyway, I can't find the phrase "black hole" in my most recent draft. . .CTRL+F can't find it either.

[Astyanax]

That's because you took it out (I think).

Well then, I'd have to revert back to the mini-black hole idea (with modifications) that you guys discarded a while ago.

[Tsereve]

That's not actually part of the CT though, is it now? That's a little comment posted by me outside the CT

And if I'd taken it out, there'd be a "Edited by Tsereve" thing with a time stamp of after you said to take that part out.

[Tsereve]

Two things for now: Blackholes is not a good idea, doesn't sound plausible and the hole would possibly cause much more effects than those you described, for instance the blackhole is so powerful that it draws even light to it, even a miniature one, to be a black hole would have to have such a power, and it's probably not a good idea to create one on our planet's atmosphere or even proximity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, black hole probably wasn't a great idea, it's really a gravity warp.  But saying "the warp" and "the gravitational warp" just sounds repetative, and I'm never gonna spell "anolamy" or "anomely" or whatever it is correctly.  So if anyone knows some other synonyms for this, I'm all ears.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here we are.

[tzuchan]

Azzy:
Tsereve is trying to prove to Asty(I think) that the black hole isn't his idea, and that it was by your request(in a roundabout way) that he put it in. Initially, you and Tsereve were debating about the whole Xenium reactor thing (Which BTW, isn't "Xenium Reactor" == "Xenium Propulsion Device"?), and you asked him to base the CT off my previous Gravity Distortion Launcher/Drone CT. He did precisely that, which meant including the mini-blackhole idea since my last draft still used that idea(And I'm kinda grateful that that is the case as a gravitic molecular squisher doesn't make much sense to me...)

Also, I'm going to try to champion the "balckhole" idea for a bit. I've read somewhere(forgot where) that some scientist theorized that if we were able to create a short lived miniture blackhole, it would decay very quickly, and in the process, create an explosion. This was the original basis on which I developed my idea. However, if the general consensus is that people would rather not have blackholes and all that stuff, feel free to call it something else, eg gravitational space-time anomaly, space-time distortion, etc... (In the end I think they kinda mean the same thing tho).

Edited by tzuchan, 07 July 2005 - 01:30 AM.

[Exo2000]

Probably not such a big area of effect. It really depends what size it is. If it's barely a few centimeters across, it won't be too bad, but the explosion should still be powerful enough. If it's several meters, then you're gonna start losing the landscape, probably. Depends how high up you are.

[tzuchan]

Given that the gravitational strength is proportional to mass and inversely proportional to distance, and that it takes something with the mass of a sun to become a very strong black hole, no. There will be strong gravitaional forces very NEAR the mini-blackhole, but I would figure anything beyond a meter prolly won't get sucked in.

[Astyanax]

Ohhhh...

Thanks for clearing that up, tzuchan. Tsereve and I were on entirely different wavelengths.

What I'm concerned most about, though, is not the scientific feasiblity of black holes, but more about how the player is going to react when they read about them. A lot of people see black holes as an absolute vacuum, and even if creating a microscopic black hole was theoretically possible without destroying the planet, I doubt we're going to change their preconceptions. That is why I prefer another term- I feel that the term "black hole" makes it difficult to suspend disbelief.

but I would figure anything beyond a meter prolly won't get sucked in.

I don't see how this would make a good area effect weapon... unless the bomb's main destructive force comes from the disappearance of the black hole rather than its gravitational effects.

[Blehm 98]

alright
*brings up big 1978 college physics book, opens it up to gravity pages, and closes it*
alright you guys, it goes like this
It doesn't matter how large or small the black hole is when it explodes, because all black holes explode at the exact same size. And the explosion is an ultra-violent super explosion, far beyond the scale of protecting the earth(unless destroying it is protecting it). When a black hole explodes it is theorized to explode at approximately 1 quadrillion degrees, which is an unimaginable amount of energy.
Also, all black holes have the same level of gravity, just they only have a much smaller even horizon as they themselves get smaller. There is also the problem that if the black hole can get enough matter to fall into it, it will grow, and that is a problem. But if it is small enough it will just explode instantly

[tzuchan]

It doesn't matter how large or small the black hole is when it explodes, because all black holes explode at the exact same size.  And the explosion is an ultra-violent super explosion, far beyond the scale of protecting the earth(unless destroying it is protecting it).  When a black hole explodes it is theorized to explode at approximately 1 quadrillion degrees, which is an unimaginable amount of energy. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Err... In this case, does that mean that if we use blackhole based weapons, we'd be essentially using a mutual assured destruction weapon?

[Blehm 98]

Azrael, and explosion on that scale is not harmless in anyway? That amount of energy is beyond the capabilities of the human imagination!!! Its gravity would be rather harmless, unless you happen to touch its even horizon, but if it goes bang so does the earth and probably the entire solar system

[Blehm 98]

Alright, let me see Nasa for a second, i'll edit in a link once i find one
edit1: because i must show a response, all the books i have read say that black holes explode violent, talk to cassandra(aegwyn, that is) about them exploding and stuff, she would probably know

Edited by blehm, 07 July 2005 - 10:33 PM.

[Astyanax]

Well, all this debate is well and good, but keep in mind that we are talking about a very theoretical topic. We cannot say for sure which is the case- mayhaps they are both true in different situations. I myself (in limited searchings, admittedly) have seen assertions for both the violent explosion and harmless dissipation of black holes.

But anyway, I say we take the path of least resistance and just axe any mention of black holes in the text. That way, we'd have a lot less spirited debate about hypothetical situations and can focus more on other parts of the text.

That said, I think the gravitational distortion idea is still workable (just as long as it doesn't mention "black hole"), so most of the text is still useable.

[Exo2000]

Sounds good. One way it could work is that it "emits" a powerful gravitational pulse to pull everything towards it (or at least try to) and then explodes violently and messily.

[Blehm 98]

So everyone agrees
No black holes
Yes a device that distorts the space time continuum when supplied with energy

[Astyanax]

Agreed, blehm.

Exo2000: your idea sounds good, imho, but then we'd have to explain why most of the damage lies on the x-y plane and less on the z axis. If the gravity was uniform, there'd be a deep hemispherical crater- something I suspect the AWD won't want to deal with...

Maybe some sort of gravitational aberrance/anomaly/perturbation/distortion/ripple (sorry, there are a lot of ways we can describe this) rather than a fixed gravitational pull? The only problem with this explanation is that there is no real "explosion", so there wouldn't be the same "scorched earth" look after the blaster bomb weapon-equivalent is used.

But for the Gravity Defense Array, I don't think this is an issue, unless we're animating UFO's attacking bases...

[Blehm 98]

Well, maybe if it gives off a powerful Gravitational "pulse", it would do similar things to what it hits as the warp weapons in UFO: Aftermath... it would severely damage most stuff it hits and rip it apart/ About the scorched earth, and the smoke, that could just be the remainder of the elerium going up with a bang, that means the explosions could have a range marked by everything within being completely or severely damaged(ie, all trees just turn to grass, etc) but there would be fire and scorched earth and smoke within maybe a third the range of the big ripple where even more damage is done and it has the affects you mentioned. However, that is more for the hand weapon, not the defense module. I don't think the pilots care about whether or not there is an explosion if the alien ship goes down

[Exo2000]

Agreed, blehm.

Exo2000: your idea sounds good, imho, but then we'd have to explain why most of the damage lies on the x-y plane and less on the z axis.  If the gravity was uniform, there'd be a deep hemispherical crater- something I suspect the AWD won't want to deal with...

Maybe some sort of gravitational aberrance/anomaly/perturbation/distortion/ripple (sorry, there are a lot of ways we can describe this) rather than a fixed gravitational pull?  The only problem with this explanation is that there is no real "explosion", so there wouldn't be the same "scorched earth" look after the blaster bomb weapon-equivalent is used.

But for the Gravity Defense Array, I don't think this is an issue, unless we're animating UFO's attacking bases...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps due to inexplicable reasons, the pulse is on a horizontal level to maximise damage to anything surrounding it? << >>

[Astyanax]

blehm: Hm... I guess that could work.

Exo2000: haha, simple, yet elegant. I like it. Chalk one up to the Alien engineers for their innovation.

But I'm sort of wondering how armor prevents gravitational damage. Armor can shield against explosions just fine, but gravity? Maybe it's some property of Alien Composites... but then this weapon wouldn't affect UFO hulls, right? Sorry, I'm just typing out my thoughts. I guess I have to think about it some more...

Edited by Astyanax, 08 July 2005 - 11:16 AM.

[Blehm 98]

armor couldn't protect you from a Gravitational pulse, since all mass is on the space-time continuum, armor couldn't protect you unless it is phased in from another universe, and its mass resides in a different dimension, instead of here. That would make it completely weightless, and would explain why armor doesn't weigh your soldiers down.
I thought we were steering clear of black holes, then exo brings up an even horizon

[Exo2000]

armor couldn't protect you from a Gravitational pulse, since all mass is on the space-time continuum, armor couldn't protect you unless it is phased in from another universe, and its mass resides in a different dimension, instead of here.  That would make it completely weightless, and would explain why armor doesn't weigh your soldiers down.
I thought we were steering clear of black holes, then exo brings up an even horizon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I said nothing about event horizons!

Anyway, the grav-pulse doesn't do the damage, it just -tries- (read, probably doesn't succeed, or rather, doesn't, ever) to pull things towards it, then it goes boom, and basically flattens anything close enough.

[Astyanax]

Hemispherical crater sounds good, and reasonable, why not?

Well, aside from it being very deep, is deformable terrain a feature that will be added to Xenocide?

armor couldn't protect you from a Gravitational pulse, since all mass is on the space-time continuum, armor couldn't protect you unless it is phased in from another universe, and its mass resides in a different dimension, instead of here.  That would make it completely weightless, and would explain why armor doesn't weigh your soldiers down.

This is a problem, imho, because in X-Com 1, armor did help defend against blaster bombs, and I don't think Xenocide is going to have the armor you mentioned. I think we need address how gravity and armor interact with each other.

Anyway, the grav-pulse doesn't do the damage, it just -tries- (read, probably doesn't succeed, or rather, doesn't, ever) to pull things towards it, then it goes boom, and basically flattens anything close enough.

This is an interesting idea, but gravity doesn't seem to be playing a large role for a weapon that has "gravity" in the title...

Edited by Astyanax, 11 July 2005 - 10:40 AM.

[Astyanax]

Sorry, I didn't clarify very well.

Unfortunately, the discussion kind of strayed from the defense facility to gravity weapons in general; they use similar technologies, right?

As for "hemispherical", I assumed that gravity worked more-or-less in the same manner as it does in real life (evenly in all directions)... but that may change according to what we decide the weapon actually does.

[Blehm 98]

If it projects the wave in any direction it should go that way shouldnt' it? If mean, if you can make something so that it goes along the length of the missile it should go horizontally(to the earth's surface, not on the solar system plane )

[Tsereve]

Sorry for my absence guys, I was on vacation.

An interesting aspect of the above debate is that I stated near the top of the page that I never mentioned the term "black hole" in my latest draft. As said somewhere on page. . .2? the term "gravitational pulse" or something close to it would be used, iirc.

I don't think many of you really understand what I was trying to say in that draft, probably my lack of skill in explaining things like this. Anyway, here goes again. When the matter incased within the Xenium Reactor/Propulsion Unit is compressed into critical mass, it bends the space-time continuum, drawing everything within a certain radius (which depends on the energy put into the gravity well) inwards for a fraction of a nanosecond. After this instant, the well explodes outwards, and everything that moved inwards for that instant is violently jerked ourwards. The destructive force which sets this weapons aside from other "things that go boom" is that jerk. The objects are pulled inwards and then outwards almost instantly, thus inertia rips the molecules (or atoms?) themselves apart. Then the explosion hits the weakened (if not destroyed) atomic/molucular structions, and completely rip them apart. The result is, everything within the blast radius is atomized.

Armor protects against this by absorbing some of the shock from the initial jerk, as well as the explosion itself. It's only logical that those advanced armor suits would have some form of impact resistance and shock absorbant. . .thingy. When a projectile hits it, the armor shudders with the blow, but prevents the person within it from moving as much and as violently. Here, the armor moves before the shock reaches the person by a time we do not yet have the ability to measure. Thus, the armor moves, and prevents the person from moving as much or as violently, and damage is reduced.

Hope that helped.

[Astyanax]

Thanks Tsereve, that really clears some things up (and I hope you had a nice vacation ).

The only problem is that gravity affects masses regardless of what's between them. For instance, wearing armor wouldn't shield me from the effects of Earth's gravity.

You could say that the Alien Composites in the armor can shield against the gravitational pulse... but then the Alien Composites in Alien UFO hulls would shield them against the Gravity Defense Array, too... and wouldn't that make it less effective than Plasma Defenses?

But I guess I'm getting too nitpicky. Your idea sounds nice, imho, and to be honest, I do like the rationale behind it. Perhaps other people don't have the same objections as I do?

Edited by Astyanax, 13 July 2005 - 12:00 PM.

[Tsereve]

Well, personal armor (not the type of armor, I mean armor for one person) reduces the damage slightly, but still is practically useless against such weapons. I mean, how many times in the original have you seen a guy in the best armor available take a direct hit from one of these babies and survive? My current count is: 0. With UFOs, the armor is heavier, yes, but the weapon is also larger. Thus, the weapon might do slightly less damage proportionally compared to the hand-held version against personal armor (see first sentence) but it'll still be devastating.

No, wearing armor wouldn't shield you from Earth's gravity. But if that gravitational field were to violently pulsate, an impact-resistant suit of armor would reduce the effect on you somewhat. Imagine you're in a padded room, as I'm sure quite a few of us will be in someday There's an earthquake, and you start bumping into walls and stuff everywhere, but the room, which is analogous to a suit of armor, reduces the damage. Now, try that again in a steel room without any kind of impact reducer. Kind of like that.

[dan2]

If I remember correctly, a lucky soldier can survive or even not be hurt by a Disruptor Pulse Bomb, but also I remember the two strongest armors require Zrbite to be manufacture.
I imagine Xenium is going to be used in such armor, and since Xenium already have some gravity effect....you fill the blank

[tzuchan]

Wrong material(Or rather, material from another game), but a very valid point, especially in the case of the Flying Suit since it'd be actively generating it's own Grave-field...

[Blehm 98]

Gravity has nothing to do with impact. You cannot stop anything that is on the space-time continuum from being affected by a gravitational pulse, the armor is in essence a drawing on a peace of paper, and it doesn't matter what the armor is colored with, it still gets crumpled and torn with the paper

[Tsereve]

The gravity doesn't directly cause the damage. It's the sudden change in gravity which does it. The person will also be pulled, but a fraction of a nanosecond after the armor. Thus, when the armor comes to a sudden stop, the person will crash into the inside of the armor an instant later. Any cushioning in the armor will lessen the force of this impact.

[Astyanax]

Well, that'd be true if the person and armor moved as a unit... but what if one part of a person's body moved faster than another? I was sort of thinking that a sudden gravitational pulse on, say, a person's heart or liver might cause some severe trauma.

[Blehm 98]

I thought this thing gave off a micropulse which subjected different parts to the different gravity. In the way you say it then it would be nowhere near as powerful as i was thinking it was

[Tsereve]

I was sort of thinking that a sudden gravitational pulse on, say, a person's heart or liver might cause some severe trauma.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The is the idea.

I thought this thing gave off a micropulse which subjected different parts to the different gravity.  In the way you say it then it would be nowhere near as powerful as i was thinking it was

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eeep! Munchkin overload!

[Blehm 98]

Gravitational ripple which causes one part of the body to be under massive gravity while the other is fine, it travels through you, and you cannot stop it, massive internal damage and probably external damage as well