Jump to content
XCOMUFO & Xenocide

Psi


T-1

Recommended Posts

It's never been really clear what the limits of psi are. So these are my ideas.

What is psi?
In my opinion psi is the ability too detect and/or alter the movement of electrons over large distances. This allows people to alter the flow of information through people's nervous systems and also to change the functioning of electronic devices.

So taking a look at what can be possibly done with psi. (when I say people here, I mean any kind of living thing that uses electricity in it's nervous system. That includes HWPs, humans, and most aliens.)
1. The ability to metally "see" electrons like most people see light. Lightning maybe could "psi-blind" people.
2. Being able to electrocute people
4. make people hallucinate
5. knock people out
6. influence people's emotions (make 'em panic or berserk)
7. make them think they're allies are they're enemies (semi-mc)
8. Make people aim wrong
9. cripple/paralyze people
10. cause people pain without actually hurting them
11. reflect/absorb/deflect electric attacks
12. prevent/cause chemical reactions in grenades, explosives, etc.(this would make a lot of explosives useless, simply because the aliens can just make grenades explode in your hand.)
13. see through the eyes of other people
14. communicate silently (can be intercepted by anyone with psi though)
15. increase/decrease the strength of magnets or objects that can be potentially magnetized
16. stop people's involuntary nervous system stuff like heart, lungs, etc.
17. people's senses (sight, smell, etc.)
18. cause more advanced weapons (laser, plasma) to stop functioning
19. ionize things.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest alex the greater
no psy afects all matter and energy not just electricaty

i beleve it probably has something to do whith quantim mechanics or string theroy or something like that
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geez...

First off, since there is no proven psy phenomenon to study, we can only imagine what such a thing might be...

IMHO, since neuron signals are ultimately low power, extremely highly distributed electro-chemical messages, they do radiate a certain EM field (sharks can actually sence living organsims by the electrical impulses they produce).
That said, I rationalise PSY in UFO to be the use of an external power source (Psi-Amp) receptive to certain brainwave patterns that can be amplified to act on some other being's brain wave patterns. Such a thing could mostly alter the mental state (destabilising is the easiest) or use modest telekinesis, ultimately maybe induce a heart attack...
The aliens have been genetically bred and surgically implanted for the appropriate ability, hence, they do not need the external power source...

That said, one cannot "See" electrons, since they are so damn tiny that light photons can pass around them, besides the simple fact of observing them modifies their state (Heinsenberg's uncertainty principle). So IMHO, "seeing" electrons is just a mishmash of pseudo-science hodgepodge that would ruin the scientific basis of science-fiction...
Electrocutions and hallucinations are fair game under this paradigm (alien entertainment actually use Psy to induce hallucinations :LOL:)
Knock people or make them panick is already pretty much in XCOM and so is making them think allies/ennemies are reversed (it's what MC is all about). Decrease accuracy is what hallucination is all about...
Deflect electric attacks... Hmmm, not sure, it would require the energy of a few suns, so you don'nt want that in your face, and so is the prevention of explosives... MCing already allows for seeing through an alien's eyes... favorite method of scouting... :D
I like the idea of intercepting thought communications... ^_^
Advanced weapons would be shielded against EM fields, since they are made or covered in conductive metal, and the better a conductor is, the lest an EM field is going to be able to go through it... Useless IMHO.
Ionising... for what? Oh, that's what telekinesis is all about (using EM fields to move an ionised object), and electric shocks too :D
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Paladin' date='Sep 27 2004, 04:51 PM']That said, one cannot "See" electrons, since they are so damn tiny that light photons can pass around them, besides the simple fact of observing them modifies their state (Heinsenberg's uncertainty principle). So IMHO, "seeing" electrons is just a mishmash of pseudo-science hodgepodge that would ruin the scientific basis of science-fiction...
[right][post="96055"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
The metals' specific looks is caused by seeing the light reflected from free electrons, so technically, you see electrons al the time. Their size (current knowledge: 0) doesn't matter for whether we see them. You confuse this with the fact that the resolution of a vision via photons (or anything else, for that matter) cannot go under the wavelength of the light used; you still get photons reflecting back to you, only the place of the reflection is blurred.
However, I am sceptic about an ability of seeing others' brain's EM activity, due to the pretty low energy levels involved; I mean, your own brain activity would easily overshadow any outer signal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Psi is acturly possible to achive. Although pretty unusual. Its not like you use your brainpower to move a car, but you send signals through a computer, that powers the car.

All you need is a special headband. Thats all. They designed it almost specificly to be able to comtroll stuff in a game. Pretty wierd huh?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same stuff works the other way... Certain varying magnetic fields around head do produce brainwave patterns that cause hallucinations and other effects. This is yet very crude tech though, but advancing. After all, we know very little of our own brains.

Basically [Psi-Amp] needs to reproduce magnetic field of your brains with some alterations and added power into distance and the poor subject does anything you think.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the uncertain margin of "science fiction". It's really unable to be real, but people better darn well think it can! :happybanana:

The hallucination thing sounds interesting.... I wonder if it would be possible to make those electrical waves transmit the thoughts? It doesn't sound too impossibe....

Nah. :LOL:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest alex the greater
personaly i think its laughable to think psy uses elecrricaty

i think we should just say that all minds emit breainwave energy and when you think you are safe thinking thoughts in your mind you dount relise that all your thougthts are spilling out on an interdemonsonal frequincy

good for you not many pepple can receve these brainwaves

but some peepple (and aliens) can do just that and not just receve also fousus thoughts a project them into your head and evean countroll your mind and boddy

that is Dr icarus* theroy of telapathy

now for telacnesis

brain waves can also afect matter on the subatomic scale causing psycacal and cemacal changes

now for ESP
i have no idea

*icarus is the outher screen name i use Edited by alex the greater
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alex:
Laughable? The nervous systems of all currently known living things work using electricity.

Paladin:
And I didn't mean actually see. notice how I put quotes around "see". Detecting the electrons. About the ionizing, I was just stating what was possible, not saying it would be useful for anything.

About EM radiation rather then moving electrons directly:
Hmmm.. well that would be an easy way of explaining why psi does nothing more than it already does in xcom1. But it did say something about "we don't know how this technology works" or something of the sort, so I think it'd be more complicated than that. Of course this would also require you to aim the amp at the target, unless you want to start MCing yourself, and everyone else within range. And if you aimed it you could miss.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='alex the greater' date='Sep 28 2004, 01:13 AM']well electicaty cant explain telacneses or ESP
[right][post="96127"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Because those things don't exist in the first place :P
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thesis 1. Brain activity (thoughts, emotions, commands to muscles, everything) is basically electricity. (and chemistry, one caused by other and they affect each other in extremely complex ways).

Thesis 2. All electricity creates magnetism, thus if you know function of brains well enough and have accurate enough measuring devices you can figure out every thought from the very weak EM field radiating from brains.

Thesis 3. Every magnetic field creates electricity, so if you know exactly what brain electricity is wanted, and can create magnetic field around brains accurately enough the subject brain thinks what you want.

All above is pretty well accepted theory, and a lot of it has already been proven. Replication of this has already been accomplished in basic level like controlling a wheelchair with thoughts or suppressing mental illnesses with magnetic fields. However manipulating clear thoughts accurately would require practically complete knowledge of brain functions and that seems quite unreachable anytime soon. So we need help from our alien friends in this one, as well as in developing accurate enough devices.

[Mind Probe] would be simplier thing (still terribly complex) that scans general active areas of brains to reveal things like fatique, alertness and special training. No specific thoughts are seen, or needed. [Psi-Amp] on the other hand needs to be able to alter brain signals from distance with great accuracy to [Mind Control] or just activate some certain patterns in primitive brain parts [Panic]. User would have to adjust device to small individual deviations in physique and function of brains. [Psionic Skill]

Telekinesis, pyrokinesis and such... Anything that has no brains would not respond, except if [Psi-Amp] could be overloaded with enough energy to manipulate objects directly with magnetic fields. It would burn so complex and sensitive device quicker than a bolt of lightning would a calculator.

Basically i'm trying to convince you to stay in conventional reality based Sci-Fi and not to just patch fancy words like "Subspace", "Interdimensional" or "Unexplainable" in front of everything difficult. That is just poor storytelling and leads to much more ridiculous explanations than totally wrong theory that is even distantly based on reality.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[repeat][quote]Basically i'm trying to convince you to stay in conventional reality based Sci-Fi and not to just patch fancy words like "Subspace", "Interdimensional" or "Unexplainable" in front of everything difficult. That is just poor storytelling and leads to much more ridiculous explanations than totally wrong theory that is even distantly based on reality.[/quote][repeat]

[UFOpaedia] is for explanations, background and sci-fi text. Causing arguments is certainly not a reason to exclude anything, the whole game concept will create many with its mere existence. Everything should be considered from the point "Is it good for the game". Original had many clear flaws in its short descriptions but they were good, and the most important, there were some explanations. Besides, how can humans create, use and reproduce tecnology they do not understand?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we have no idea how it works, how can we make an amplifier? (edit: you beat me to it)

We can atleast say that we know that it has a connection with our own research on electrical waves, and that we have done some testings with the aliens we captured that compattable with PSI. But even though they can do it alone with their brain, because its so powerful, we need something to amplify the signals. The [Mind Probe] is a resiver - decrypter, and the [Psionic Amplifier] is the sender.

(i really think that you should only be able to research PSI after finding out the secrets of the mind probe.) Edited by mikker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, definitely about the mind probe...
Oooh, and better yet, you need a mind probe to build a psi-amp!!! :idea:
That would make them pricey indeed :LOL:
And if we can't understand the principle enough, there's no reason we should be able to build the mind probes... :D
hehehe nice play balance here...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest alex the greater
well if psy used electricty we would have descovered it proved it and be teaching it in elamentry schools a long time aggo
plus it doesint explain esp or telacnesis which is just as "reall" as telaphathy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, but what you hem, naively describe as "brain waves" are just that, bio-chemical electricity... EM stands for electro-magnetic, because in our universe, you can't move or vary electricity without creating magnetism, and vice-versa. visible light is actually an EM radiation, just at MUCH higher frequencies that Micro-wave, wich are higher than radio... But electro-magnetic radiation, however slim, is definitely produced by any neural organic tissue.
The fact that Psi have not been officially discovered is simply because we have'nt found any PROVABLE evidence that is not a scam...
As I said, those were just plausible explanations for a phenomenon as yet unproven...
^_^
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest alex the greater
also electricaty doesint explain telacnesis which is just as reall as telaphathy

and when i say brain waves i dount mean the bioelectric energy that pases thro our boddys i mean a new form of energy unknown to scince

psyonics are closer to phloasaphy than scince when i talk about brainwaves i am starting to go into the relm of soals and spirets Edited by alex the greater
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, I think we should go on whim here. Psi is just one of those things that simply doesn't need to be explained. You're probably going to laugh at this example, but Psi-Ops did an excellent job of making psi powers interesting and powerful--they actually had a fluid, original design behind them. The way the eerie, swirling mist emanated from the guy's fingers, the way fire flowed from his hands like flowing silk--it all felt like the mind sustained that strange power. It didn't feel supernatural at all, as if such things could be accomplished through sheer will. I believe psionic amplification should be achieved in-game with the simple "will" approach.

Like T-1, I believe psi powers should be seriously elaborated on--tripping grenades remotely, really screwing and warping enemies' heads, projecting oneself outward slightly to "sightjack" nearby enemies (a concept used long before the game Siren), etc. There are all kinds of great, interesting things Psi could be used for that couldn't fit in an action game such as psi-ops, but would work in a strategy game like Xenocide. Such as, perhaps:

Mind-Bending: Altering the way a being percieves the world. Such an attack could have various effects, such as identifying friends as enemies, screwing with visual/audial perception, etc. Basically, a quick and effecient "scatter" attack.

Pain: Tripping the body's pain sensors in a forceful manner, triggering violent bouts of sweeping, incapacitating agony. Such an attack can easily demoralize even the strongest, most resolved enemies, leaving them stunned and panicked. Simply a much more effective manner of the Panic attack.

Traitor: Altering social perception to "persuade" an enemy to view his comrades as hostile, and his enemies as friendlies. Such an attack is difficult to make, but the effects are practically irreversible and can cause various side-effects.

Fear: Amplifies the brain's self-preservatory complex, effectively thrusting the target into a berserk frenzy, firing his weapon with reckless abandon or simply fleeing in mortal terror. More difficult to incite than your standard mind-control attack.

Sightjack: Allows the stealthy entry into a target's field of visual perception, without having to force entry into the mind. The target shouldn't notice the intrusion, allowing the user to effectively "see" what it sees as it moves about. The effects vary depending on psionic strength and capacity, as does the duration of sight. Such an attack requires the user to get his/her bearings afterwards.

Brainwave Aura: Difficult to use, but effective. Allows the user to detect mental activity within a limited radius--a great way to detect a potential ambush, or see a limited distance in the dark when surrounded. It's even an effective means to get your bearings around sharp corners. The user must take a moment to rest to get their bearings after using the attack.

Mirage: Induces rapid brainwave activity in the target, the resultant effect resembling that of a hullucinogenic drug. The effects vary greatly, generally confusing a target. Victims may attack anything in sight, or even end their own lives. A nasty attack which takes time to perform correctly.

Seize: A mental seige on a victim from afar, this psi ability wreaks terrible havoc on an unprotected mind. Wrestling with the very fabric of a target's brain, the attacker can instantly render a living being unconscious with a single blow, or with some luck, even cause all brain functions to suddenly cease. A dangerous, taxing, and time-consuming attack that's unlikely to be used successfully without considerable skill.

Mind Control: Allowing the user to bend the mind of another being at will, one can assume control of a target's nervous system in the blink of an eye, controlling its every move for a slight duration of time. In this brief window, the creature is still conscious and aware, but unable to maintain control of his own body. The victim can be made to perform insidious deeds, all at the whim of the attacker. Should the controlled entity be killed in some manner, no harm comes upon the controller whatsoever. However, successfully pulling off this attack is difficult and taxing, significantly impacting the user's physical condition for a short while until adequately rested. The mental link may also be broken (?) should the attacker become incapacitated.

Just a couple things I had come to mind, there. Using the psi powers shouldn't feel like magic, of course--there should be some feasible way to explain them. Edited by The Master Maniac
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alex.
[quote]well if psy used electricty we would have descovered it proved it and be teaching it in elamentry schools a long time aggo[/quote]
But we have discovered it, proved it and we do teach it. Did you not read my rather long and thorough post? If my theses have faults, please tell your basis on them and not just opinions. I take criticism gladly if it has some foundation and i will answer any question if just asked .

[quote]plus it doesint explain esp or telacnesis which is just as "reall" as telaphathy[/quote]
b)Not exactly. There are scientific tests that point to existence of primitive thought transfer,(Russian submarine+rabbits, people transfering images and many more) but of telekinesis i have seen no proof although it has been tested several times. And please don't refer to Uri Geller, no magician has proven anything "supernatural". Ask James Randi.

MasterManiac.
Your abilities are good stuff, and they seem to fit more than well to my theory of MC. Everything a person perceives, feels or thinks is chemical/electrical reactions in brains and nerves. If these reactions can be observed, you know everything that subject knows. Even more as even subconscious thoughts, actions and feelings can be seen. Everything depends on accuracy and understanding of measurements.

If reactions can be generated/altered, thoughts and actions can be controlled. It would be much easier to generate or suppress activity in general areas than to form billions of complex chain reactions that are needed to control more complex activities. The former can already be done in lab/hospital environment, latter we can only dream (nightmare) of. For example stimulating certain part causes massive migren, other makes hallucinations (Which curiously are described very similar to religious experiences) and some create fear, anger or loss of orientation. This has already been done and proven, do not ignore so good a chance to connect science into fiction.

I am very sceptic, but it is only because so many unexplainable things have gotten direct and proven explanation through research. I believe nothing if it cannot be proven, and magic, souls and religions have no proof whatsoever. If you have some, tell them to mr. Randi and you will be rich. Edited by Tuoppi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm 100% with you in this, Tuoppi... ^_^

I am also very sceptic, so magic, souls & :hammer: whatnot have no hold IMHO, but I do beleive we have not (and never will) discover everything else there is.
It might work for some (like Alex -_-) to simply use the "magic" word, but if we simply "invoke magic", any and all sci-fi fans that ARE the ones suceptibles of liking this game will find it GREATLY lacking once they gain maturity and criticism.

That said, I have NO problems to play D&D in a world full of magic, but Xenocide is a not so far "Realistic" future we're trying to depict here. That's what I liked about the original XCOM game, they did not knew nor told everything, yet it made the whole PLAUSIBLE, because they made it consistent... At worst they said they had no idea how it worked, but I think we have a very plausible idea on how Psi would work, so why not include it?? If some people don't master college-physics as some of us do, I'm more than happy to explain everything there is to know about that!! :D
(as long as they keep an open mind :P)


[Philosophical Rant]
IMHO, one should NEVER mix up Science and Spirituality, because Science explains the 'how', and Spirituality explains the 'why'... Quite fundamental differences, because you can't ask Science to explain 'why', because it won't make sense since Science should be dispationnate, based on cold hard facts. Spirituality involves believing in something, but faith is based on knowledge against all rationality, but you can't use that to explain experimental and logical facts, they'll be ALL wrong. spirituality is best used to know what is right and what is wrong, not explaining how we can do something...

Thus IMHO spirituality is the equal opposite of Science, both necessary to understand the world we live in, and they need not to be in contradiction, otherwise an individual might be too volatile & against the common good, or on the contrary cold and heartless...


IN CONCLUSION (phew)
Don't mix up spirits and magics in this SCIENCE-FICTION we're creating here, it's not the place, aside from showing how religions can go REAL bad (aka Cult of Sirius :D)
[END Philosophical Rant]


On the other hand, as Tuoppi pointed out, "do not ignore so good a chance to connect science into fiction"...
If ANYONE can read this and understand a bit more about himself, humannity, the universe or anything else, then I'm happy ^_^

Oh, and here's a banana: :happybanana:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a question, how do you prevent MCing yourself? Would it be like a brainwave frequency laser? And then why would you need a psi amp? Just make a recording of a panicking brainwave and have a gun the plays it back in a laser form, amplified a bit. Instant panic gun, with accuracy being the only skill required. And with that tech you could make psi traps at the entrances to your base. So the aliens land and they all go berserk and kill each other.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

heehhhh... Laser and brainwave are not the same thing... it's like comparing the air movements of a trillion men symphonic orchestra with a devastating tornado... both may be based on air movement, they are definitely not mixable in any way...

The idea behind the Psi-amp is that we humans don't have the full genetic engineering or technological implants to project strong enough EM fields, hence the AMPLIFIER that is the Psi-amp.
But since we don't even know for sure if Psi is at all possible, it's pretty hard to design an amplifier on something we don't know...
teh point of an amplifier is that it would not work unatended, and we can't create artificially what the human brain is capable of doing...
You'd need a psi with each of those base devices, so... a guy with a psi-amp is pretty much it :D
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest alex the greater
[quote name='Tuoppi' date='Sep 29 2004, 09:50 AM'][quote]plus it doesint explain esp or telacnesis which is just as "reall" as telaphathy[/quote]
b)Not exactly. There are scientific tests that point to existence of primitive thought transfer,(Russian submarine+rabbits, people transfering images and many more) but of telekinesis i have seen no proof although it has been tested several times. And please don't refer to Uri Geller, no magician has proven anything "supernatural". Ask James Randi.[/quote]

actulay i beleve uri is real faced whith overwelming evdince i am forced to beleve that thare is at least one magican whith reall suppernatral abbilatys

he has been able to bend meatel bars encased in a airtight glass case
also close examination of the spoons he bends revel signs of localised melting
and a lightpoast misterously bent outside a cafe he was eating at

countless sceptics have tryed to disprove him but none have sucedid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then how come he hasn't claimed all the prizes? There are numerous challenges with monetary prizes summing up to several millions of dollars. Not to mention the fame it would bring him. Btw, Geller is considered a proved fake.

More info [url="http://skepdic.com/randi.html"]Here[/url], And if you are interested in Uri and other spoonbenders, i suggest you read [url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879751991/002-0819674-7257656?v=glance"]This[/url]

And back on topic.
A EM-field would have to be extremely focused, local, weak and accurate to have desired effects. Wrong frequency, power, structure or patterns and the brain activity would respond as dramatically as to daylight or an TV remote control. Whis means no effect at all. This means effectively that field can mess with only one head at a time, and a person 10 inches away from target wouldn't feel a thing, or a slight headache at most.

And to PSI-gun... My amp does need an operator, to correct deviations and control the field. No 2 brains are exactly the same, even those of identical twins are different. They have some minor differences as experiences, memories, skills and personality continuously alter function and even physical form of brains. IMO a purely hand-held mechanical thing cannot be operated as quickly as needed, nor can a computer calculate all possible formations - there are just too many factors changing too rapidly. Operator's mind would have to be connected to the device and all the operation be based on thoughts. A scanning-helmet or another magnetic receptor to read, not emit. Thus a trained operator could instantly know what is going on in target mind's essential parts and he could adjust the attack on that information. The operator doesn't need to be a brain surgeon, though. After a little training he would learn to discriminate essential information from non-essential and basic operation would only require thoughts like "You! Panic! Pain! Walk there! Point gun! Pull trigger!" Amp would see directly from operators thoughts everything it needs, like where the target is, and what exactly the operator wants. Most of specific information and field adjustment is handled subconsciously, like moving your own muscles. In training the skill would get higher soon, like a child learns to walk.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='T-1' date='Sep 29 2004, 06:31 PM']But if it's based on em radiation... and it's not a laser, how do you prevent mcing yourself?
[right][post="96394"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
*sigh* :D
How are lasers created?
Well, basically you have a "resonnance cavity", where 2 mirrors are separated by an integer multiple of the wavelength (finely tuned by piezo-electric crystals, such as quartz, that change a few nanometers in length under the influence of an electric current), so in this you'll have a suitable material such as Ruby (artificial) or neon gas, that will emit a single wavelength (single color) light if flashed by a powerfull light impulsion (like a camera flash all around it). The point is, that the mirrors are not perfect, and one of them is slightly less reflective than the other, so the original photons (a quantum, ie "smallest possible unit" of light) are not powerfull enough to go through it, but whenever some are found in synch with each other, they'll continue to bounce between the two mirrors until there's enough of phased photons going back and forth that the fact that tehy are in synch will give them enough punch to go through the weaker mirror, hence we have our laser beam :D
Note that this Laser resonnance cavity but inverted (putting light in) is actually used as a spectro-photometer, to identify chemical elements when light passed through it... such as identifying the elements in a star, or the chemicals in a sample of air or liquid...
Laser, because of their phased and single wavelength aspect, actually helped to prove the dual nature of light, since it sometimes acts like a wave, (it has a wavelength, interference, diffraction, etc.) but light is ALSO a particle... As the photons (minimum quantity of energy, the Young experiments, etc.)

Now you just think about all that the next thime you use a CD!! :LOL:
[/Physics 303 course]


[Biology 101 course]
What we call "brainwaves" is the dominant component of an infinitely complex signal observed by the cascading activation of neurons, they are the tiny cells we have in our brains and we have about a trillion of those a brains...
[/Biology 101 course]

[Biology 303 course]
Neurons are basically just a weighted additionner (each input is weighted in light of previous experience, and added to make the output).
(See Computer algorythm 303 for more on the organisation of Neural Networks)
SO, this signal exchange between neurons is a ripple of electric ions (Sodium-Potassium, Na+ and K+ if my memory serves me right). The thing is, that positive charges being pumped in or out of the cellular membranes of those neurons, correspond to a charge movement, hence, as explained by Maxwell's equations since 200 years ago, moving electric charges induce a change in magnetism (the basic principle of electric motors and generators), THUS, the normal activity of a single neural cell is translated by a very faint electro-magnetic field. In fact, passing an electric current through your body will disrupt nerves and muscles (controlled by nerves) because the electric current is HUGE compared to the fait signals of our neural system. Electrical current, even faint, can kill by stopping the heart (a muscle) this way, thus defibrilation principles of reactivating the heart. In fact, heart monitors, EEG (Electro-Encephalograms) are all about measuring the electric signals of our bodies...
[/Biology 303 course]

[Sci-Fi stuff]
Now, we were discussing a PLAUSIBILITY for Psi, namely: it could be a GREATLY amplified brainwave signal that could interfere (act upon) another...
In that light, Psi working on EM fields manipulation would be PLAUSIBLE, even the best possible explanation we have...
"Magic" have no place in a realistic context IMHO.

That said, NOTE that a sheet of electrically conductive material will stop EM radiation, depending of course on the conductivity and width of the material, as well as the strength of the EM field...
SO, a power armor would weaken psi powers if they are based on EM fields and the armor is somehow conductive, but a Laser, since it simply works by heating up the outside layer, would only be affected normally by the armor material.
That includes a human head, it IS made up of conductive material (Blood is highly conductive, it is actually salted and contains carbonic acid), so EM fields would need to be REALLY close or REALLY powerfull and focused to afect us, but a radar dish or emitting satellite dish is actually powerfull enough to heat us just as a microwave does, so it's very dangerous.

THUS, IMHO, EM-Psi would add a nice touch to the explanation, better than "We don't know how it works but we've rigged this Psi-amp here you see..."
[/Sci-Fi stuff]

[quote name='alex the greater' date='Sep 29 2004, 06:52 PM']actulay i beleve uri is real faced whith overwelming evdince i am forced to beleve that thare is at least one magican whith reall suppernatral abbilatys
(...)
countless sceptics have tryed to disprove him but none have sucedid
[right][post="96397"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

C'mon man, you are clearly talking about a spiritual experience here, you say yourself that you BELEIVE in this "magic"... That's not science, it's religion...
If that guy (whoever he is) would reproduce his tricks (because that's what it's called :P) in a controlled environment under permanent scrutiny, he could not do it, since "magicians" really are ILLUSIONNISTS. They make people beleive...

The fact that no one's disproven him yet only proves that he's clever, that he invented new tricks, or that there MAY be something else (remember, we need to keep an open mind, even if it's a major slap in the face of the paradigm in which we BELEIVE... here's that word again)

It's only a matter of time before his tricks are revealed... just ponder teh Loch Ness monster... Some people still adamantly refuse to understand it's all been a scam, even with the guy that started it confessing it on his death bed ^_^
Why?
Well, because people need to beleive...

P.S. I HOPE some people will actually read through this... :LOL:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[s]More spells to the mage class![/s]
What we are discussing here is a game; while we don't have to, we better have plausible explanations for the stuff that's used, or players will have problems immersing into the game universe (given the general idea of the gameplay that we share). Since we want a game with psionic abilities (I believe there is a poll about that somewhere), we are bound to put inconsistent/implausible things in the game universe (psionic abilities developed by flying pieces of fabric affect humans), but IMHO introducing telekinesis and/or a dozen of other powers improves the gameplay less (if at all) than it harms the believability of the game universe, which is (for me at least) an important part of the gameplay. Having more psionic abilities is fine as long as they fit more or less easily into a single explanation (see post above for an example), but I am wary of making psi-using soldiers de facto magi.

Now, current personal view of the matter (don't read if you're not interested):

Mind probes function as in UFO, require research, but no special training for user. Psi usage requires [psi amp]s (research, production using rare and expensive stuff), special training for the user (time in psi lab, possibly restricting usage like, say, decreasing stats when not wielding a psi amp after undergoing the training), and needs the user's brain to perform its functions; line of sight required, or at least penalties if "relayed" through others; conductive armor around the target brain decreases efficiency dramatically. Psi powers:
MC, panic: obligatory.
Psionic stunning/damage, mind probing, reading visual awareness of the target, supressing sight: fitting.
Psionic "motion sensing": quite fitting. (maybe even a [motion sensor] enhancement)
Telekinesis, ESP with no fixed&visible target: not really fitting. Edited by centurion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paladin:
I know all of that. And I never said that electricity is the same as EM. The EM explanation is much more plausible than my electricity explanation (Because in mine the movement of electrons is controlled from some unseen unknown force. I just didn't want to say "a phased EM radiation around the frequencies of EM that the human body uses.", that's why I said laser.

Alex:
My electricity thing does explain telekinesis, you can use the force of repulsion between opposite charges.

Tuoppi:
Things like that don't change that much from person to person. You could just broadcast everything in that whole spectrum of frequencies for certain emotions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Centurion: :beer:
Paladin: :beer:

T-1 Good, nice to have some real comments. True that brain differences are not SO great, but i think that they still would matter. At least on more precise attacks.

The process of MC would feel to user like using own senses and own body, the amp would link the brains that way. Normal senses are quite special, eyes detect photons of certain wavelengths and form a picture based on that. Ears detect variations in air pressure, skin has incredible amount of nerve endings and so on... And brains process all this information instantly. I think that somewhere in this system would just need to patch an extra ability, and it would feel very natural after a while.

Alex: Grow up and get some real info instead of beliefs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

T-1: I'm just trying to put the real words where they belong, I'm glad if it helped, sorry if it did'nt... My point is that "Brainwaves" are just that, complex electricity, so EM fields can influence electricity...

You are right, Electro-Magnetics CAN explain telekinesis (still unproven by humans), just put a supra-conductor over a magnet, and it will hover there in midair as long as it IS a supraconductor... Opposing magnets CAN and WILL repulse, to the point of hovering...
And, if we can charge an object (positively or negatively), we can influence it in the same way with electrical charges, but MUCH more powerfull, unattainable in humans IMHO.

Things WOULD definitely change from person to person, just like fingerprints... It's basically the same finger, just not necessarily the EXACT same thing. And this is so precise stuff that detaisl becomes crucial... That's where Psi-skill comes in :D

Alex: Yes it can, and so does magnetism.

The fact that the spoons melted does not mean that he did it with his mind. Most illusionists use the classic spoon trick by heating them beforehand, by folding them repeatedly... try it fast enough and it'll break.
Elementary Philosophy: aka Logic.
The greeks discovered that one 2500 years ago, use it.

Tuoppi: :beer: :party:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Tuoppi' date='Oct 1 2004, 05:57 AM']The process of MC would feel to user like using own senses and own body, the amp would link the brains that way.
[right][post="96516"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Well I wasn't really talking about MCing, that would require an amp. I was just talking about stuff like panicing and berserking. And if aliens have brains that different from the norm to require normal use of psi amps to do that kind of stuff, then the psi people would require separate training for every single different alien species. Then again, that could explain alien abduction. They're using those people for psi training.

[quote name='Tuoppi' date='Oct 1 2004, 05:57 AM']Alex: Grow up and get some real info instead of beliefs.
[right][post="96516"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Agreed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest alex the greater
[quote name='Tuoppi' date='Oct 1 2004, 06:57 AM']Alex: Grow up and get some real info instead of beliefs.
[right][post="96516"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

RAFLOL
that is the funnist thing i have heard all day

"real info" is just a set of beliefs that you trust enough to act appon

silly trolls
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
If you don't stop soon Alex, you risk looking stupid...

...oh wait, too late! :P

Fact is not belif - Fact is when something is PROVEN, which magicians cannot.

---

Could a mod clear this topic up? Deleting the unconstructive messages? It started out good, but is now turning slowly into a flame war. I though the whole "What is psy really" theme was good for a topic. Edited by mikker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, wonder if bezerking could be another use for another psi attack. I'm not sure on this one since the act of bezerking appeared to be a result of either tons of successful panic attacks (they either paniced and dropped stuff, and only seldom went bezerk if at all on alien's side) or as a result of losing a leader on your side.

I've never witnessed an alien bezerking before in X-COM, can anyone confirm that they can? I know they can panic and drop stuff but have never seen the former. I liked that bezerking though was a random affair, never knew if the panic attack would work to make that happen. Its why I'm unsure if it should become an attack type all its own or stay a result of one.

Anyway, point is I'd like to see other forms of attack, but don't want things like telekenisis. Perhaps as a mod for kicks maybe, but not standard. I guess its fun factor would kind of depend on how many objects there are not nailed down in order to manipulate it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aliens have baserked in the original game. Not through "Panic" for me, though.

If you can take over the mind of the victum, i can't see what prevents you from baserking. It would be more advanced the panicing - activating some sort of primal centre in the brain, so you just go crazy, or something along those lines. But i guess it will be harder then panicing. Edited by mikker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest alex the greater
[quote name='mikker' date='Oct 10 2004, 12:08 PM']Fact is not belif - Fact is when something is PROVEN, which magicians cannot. 

---

Could a mod clear this topic up? Deleting the unconstructive messages? It started out good, but is now turning slowly into a flame war. I though the whole "What is psy really" theme was good for a topic.
[right][post="97483"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

first of just cause somethings proven it doesint make it any more real
and
noboddy has disproven geller thus he is
A. a real psycic or
B. a [u][b]RELLY[/b][/u] good hoax

and if i rember corectly its you guys dooing the flameing Edited by alex the greater
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something i have wondered about in the original game, is how Etherials and Sectoids can use Psi without any device implanted. Should Grays and Cloaks have implants that strengthens the PSI attacks? I don't think so - personally. After all, the Cloaks can hover by themself. They should have enough PSI power alone.

Also, how can it be, that the amplifiers can't amplifate (eh...) the brainwaves enough so that it is much better then the Cloaks? Any suggestions to this? What about that the amplifier needs to transmit an energi wave in order to reach the aliens, and something in that wave thing makes your psi propotional to everyone else?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='mikker' date='Oct 10 2004, 03:25 PM']Also, how can it be, that the amplifiers can't amplifate (eh...) the brainwaves enough so that it is much better then the Cloaks? Any suggestions to this?
[right][post="97504"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Maybe it was dependent on how much psi you had in the first place. Not to mention that X-COM/X-Corp had to research psi powers so your scientists are just learning how to control it. And didn't the Ufopedia say that the ethereal's psi powers defied the laws of physics? IMO it would be very hard to amplify something that shouldn't exist.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys- I'm back from a loooooong hiatus induced by lots of work from Uni...

I like the idea of EM-based Psi. It sounds plausable and is a much more satisfying explaination than simply having it unexplained.

Alex: What people are saying to you is that you have no objective proof that Yuri is using psychic powers. You may believe that, but we don't have to work such beliefs into the game's fiction if we don't want to. Let's stick with things that are at least SEMI scientific, hmm? :)

[quote name='The Master Maniac' date='Sep 29 2004, 06:32 PM']Mind-Bending: Altering the way a being percieves the world. Such an attack could have various effects, such as identifying friends as enemies, screwing with visual/audial perception, etc. Basically, a quick and effecient "scatter" attack.

Pain: Tripping the body's pain sensors in a forceful manner, triggering violent bouts of sweeping, incapacitating agony. Such an attack can easily demoralize even the strongest, most resolved enemies, leaving them stunned and panicked. Simply a much more effective manner of the Panic attack.

Traitor: Altering social perception to "persuade" an enemy to view his comrades as hostile, and his enemies as friendlies. Such an attack is difficult to make, but the effects are practically irreversible and can cause various side-effects.

Fear: Amplifies the brain's self-preservatory complex, effectively thrusting the target into a berserk frenzy, firing his weapon with reckless abandon or simply fleeing in mortal terror. More difficult to incite than your standard mind-control attack.

Sightjack: Allows the stealthy entry into a target's field of visual perception, without having to force entry into the mind. The target shouldn't notice the intrusion, allowing the user to effectively "see" what it sees as it moves about. The effects vary depending on psionic strength and capacity, as does the duration of sight. Such an attack requires the user to get his/her bearings afterwards.

Brainwave Aura: Difficult to use, but effective. Allows the user to detect mental activity within a limited radius--a great way to detect a potential ambush, or see a limited distance in the dark when surrounded. It's even an effective means to get your bearings around sharp corners. The user must take a moment to rest to get their bearings after using the attack.

Mirage: Induces rapid brainwave activity in the target, the resultant effect resembling that of a hullucinogenic drug. The effects vary greatly, generally confusing a target. Victims may attack anything in sight, or even end their own lives. A nasty attack which takes time to perform correctly.

Seize: A mental seige on a victim from afar, this psi ability wreaks terrible havoc on an unprotected mind. Wrestling with the very fabric of a target's brain, the attacker can instantly render a living being unconscious with a single blow, or with some luck, even cause all brain functions to suddenly cease. A dangerous, taxing, and time-consuming attack that's unlikely to be used successfully without considerable skill.

Mind Control: Allowing the user to bend the mind of another being at will, one can assume control of a target's nervous system in the blink of an eye, controlling its every move for a slight duration of time. In this brief window, the creature is still conscious and aware, but unable to maintain control of his own body. The victim can be made to perform insidious deeds, all at the whim of the attacker. Should the controlled entity be killed in some manner, no harm comes upon the controller whatsoever. However, successfully pulling off this attack is difficult and taxing, significantly impacting the user's physical condition for a short while until adequately rested. The mental link may also be broken (?) should the attacker become incapacitated.

Just a couple things I had come to mind, there. Using the psi powers shouldn't feel like magic, of course--there should be some feasible way to explain them.
[right][post="96303"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Hmmm. Some thoughts:

Traitor sounds very powerful, especially because it seems permanent. Perhaps it should temporarily block their faculty of recognition, making them shoot at ANYthing? Sort of like your Mirage idea? That sounds a bit more balanced. Call it "confusion."

Sieze sounds a bit like the fact mentioned elsewhere that EM could induce a heart-attack... Perhaps incorperate this with attempting to use "pain," so that when you do a really strong pain attack, they are stunned or even pdysically hurt? (call it psychosomatic injury :D ) Also, a reasonably sucessful pain attack would make the victim drop their weapons. If I were in pain, I'd not hang onto my gun, I'd be clutching my head/stomach/wherever.

Fear is obviosly the panic attack under a different name. All good, except that unlike the original game, you shouldn't spin around from a fear attack. Instead, they should run towards their nearest squad member, fire randomly into open spaces, or at squad members they can't see well. (Getting paniced in your ship would not cause you to shoot at your own suad members, more likely that you simply collapse and are unable to move)

Brainwave Aura sounds like some sort of Psi-detection- This would be a novel way to know if you were fighting psi-capable aliens, too- presumably they'd show up as more concentrated areas of psi power. :)

Sightjack sounds really cyberpunk and doesn't fit with the simple tone of the others... but I can't think of a better name anyway. It's pretty cool, and it's actually part of the reason I did so much MC in UFO and TFTD- more effective scouting. Using Psi-detection and this sightjack ability in combination could be really effective and help you fight your battles at longer range, and past the cover of UFO walls, too. Nifty. It would also allow us to make MC require a much more skilled psi than it did in UFO.

Mind-control: We've heard this one before. All cool.

What would be really good though, is if you could reaction-shot with Psi. For example, if an alien attempts to psi-attack a soldier with an amp, or anyone in their field of vision, they could attempt to block that attack, or if they've got really good reactions, fire off an attack of their own at the alien afterwards. This way, one well-trained psi who is NOT using his abilities could keep your whole squad protected, and the presence of a powerful enemy psi-user would force you to rely on other methods of attack, or a decisive attack on their location BEFORE sweeping the map.

I think that a defensive option along with psis being able to "see" other psis would make a lot of the problems that people have with Psi in UFO go away :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...