712 replies to this topic

[Breunor]

Hi everyone, I wanted to start this topic to determine where models for things other than units, weapons, craft, and aliens were at. As Gangsta mentioned in another topic,

"and we need street signs, houses, mailboxes and so forth.. mean if we already have good models time is best spend working on other stuff we need"

That's what I'd like to focus on here. If there's anyone who's already working on these types of models, let's hear about them or see screen shots. I don't want to spend time on something to find out it's already done, although this is an area where duplicates shouldn't be a problem.

Also, if the programmers or project leads have guidelines as to what they'd like us to aim for, that would help. For example, what kind of scope should we consider for the battlescape? Crash sites are simple enough, but what about terror sites? I mean something like, 6 blocks by 6 blocks, with either 4 houses or 1 business/warehouse per square block. So if the terror site was in a residential area, that would have 36 blocks if it were a straight grid pattern, with up to 144 houses in it. I guess that doesn't really matter now, as we can make buildings and they can be tiled to whatever scale is needed.

I'm interested in collecting sample pics of buildings/homes from various countries, so that we can create collections of models for each continent. Also, standard street signs and other items that add to the flair should be considered. These collections could be expanded on in the future for additional variety. If nobody else is working on it and I don't here from anyone regarding this, I'll just ASSUME that every country looks just like the midwest United States, which is where I live. After all, shouldn't everybody be JUST LIKE US? (Now if that doesn't get people to give me feedback, then you must all be dead!) By the way, feedback in the form of "Drop dead, you ethnocentric jerk!" would be missing the point I think. You can email me pics and I'll post updates when things start coming in.

A texture pack from Nvidia's developer site was mentioned, I'll check into that, and I also have a 3D home design program with various textures for stone, brick, wood, wallpaper, flooring, etc. Once I get those pulled out I can send them to anybody who needs them. I'll make sure to customize them enough that there's no possibility of it being considered theft of intellectual property, I know we can't cut and paste from other applications (but wouldn't that be convenient?)

[Deimos]

http://www.markreube...alypreview.html
http://www.greatbuil.../victorian.html
http://www.bc.edu/bc...cas/fnart/arch/
http://www.greatbuil...iddle_east.html
http://www.glassstee...MiddleEast.html
http://www.arch-intl.com/page15.html

Those are from a quick google search. There were lots more pages and these were just the first link on each of the pages.

The nvidia textues and plugins are at http://developer.nvidia.com/

It didn't take long to look for resoruces so I don't think there was any need to post the way you did.

The reason that I didn't reply to you when you posted originally was because you didn't have any examples of work put up. Oh and hi

[Maverick]

down Deimos, down boy!

Wow, bit of a harsh reception.
Breunor --> We don't plan on making this American only or anything; its just easiest to start with what you know, and where you live is usually what you know. as Deimos so kindly pointed out, the internet is a great resource for finding pictures of different areas.

welcome

[Fatal_Error]

when it comes to differences in street signs then as far as i know there are no general traffic signs anywhere in europe that say "one way" eg. old world traffic signs are mostly made out of symbols. eg "one way" is represented by a thick arrow (at least in estonia) and it makes perfect sence. if you're wondering how we can remember all of 'em then the answer is that we have driving schools for that and ... :devilsmile:

ok this might be a bit off topic

[Deimos]

Re reading that post I was a bit on the sledgehammer side. I apologise Breunor. Feel free to kick my butt

To back up what everyone else has said yeah we need all the help we can get. Sorry if I came across as hostile.

*Deimos goes off to kick his own butt for a couple of hours*

[gangsta]

I vote we make this game estonian only

[LordT]

Oh!!! Can we use IKEA furniture?? PLEASE !!
All you need is that flat package and one tiny screwdriver and you set to go!! Easy as pie!
Swedish furniture roxx!

[Fatal_Error]

I vote we make this game estonian only

im sorry but ill just have to igree with you on that one ::

edit: oh and lordt i dont know if swedish furniture roxx (i know that volvo roxx ... well at least since about 1995 or so) but i sure as h.ell dont have anything against IKEA

[Maverick]

Ever heard of a volvo 350s? I read about it an it sounded awesome (they said it's only available in Europe....)

Back on topic:
I'm also interested in the textures you'd mentioned Breunor. When you go to the Nvidia site you have to make sure you get the filter (or plug-in) for the program you are using to accept their textures. I haven't ironed all the kinks out of that setup yet, but the textures are top notch.

I don't think furniture is gonna play a huge role in the game, but if you can get some nice pics of IKEA furniture I think we can pull it off. (who's to say the entire world isn't addicted to IKEA furniture anyway?)

I still don't know exactly where Estonia is...and I made it to college (tells you something about the US school system....grrr don't get me started) As for Estonian only...I wouldn't really care. I'm more interested in the battle aspects, multiplayer, etc. (in short the functionality of the game than the symantics)

Lets get crackin

[LordT]

nice pics?
www.ikea.com and forth. it has MANY pics of all types of things and all on white background so its easy too look at.
one warning though:
they all need assembling! and you only get ONE tool:

designing houses and rooms will be a breece with this material

[LordT]

build-a-kitchen 101:

http://www.ikea-usa....en/download.asp

[Breunor]

Sorry I didn't use enough sarcasm when making the USA only comments, I was unsuccessfully trying to poke fun at other comments made that come across as "I can't tell the difference between your country and the next, so who cares". It was not my intention to upset anybody, but I obviously did, so again I am sorry. I should remember that people here ARE from around the world, and what I consider humor doesn't cut it for the rest of you. My wife's been telling me that for years... Everybody's right about pictures via the Internet, I've been looking some as well, and have about 20 good shots for residential and farm buildings. I'll search for street signs of different countries as well.

To refine my request above, would anyone like to immortalize a particular building they like? That's what the pictures would let us do. For example, I like Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture, so I've looked up some pictures and designs for his work. I'd enjoy blasting aliens in there. If you live in a city that has an impressive building, something that stands out from the rest, at least let me know what it's called/where it's at and I'll try to find it on the Internet. It would be easier to send a picture or two however. It could act as the main/central building in a terror site for example. In a future multiplayer version your forces could attack a particular city the other player controls, and these samples would make it look more like that city. If people don't think this is worth the bother, that's fine as well. I'm sure I'll find plenty to work with as it is.

Here are some technical points/questions for everyone, programmers especially:
I heard someone mention there will not be a grid system in the battlescape to direct movement, but that time units will still be there. When designing floors for upper stories and the roof of a building, how should the faces be broken up? Right now I still plan to use square sections as they were in the original game. But maybe someone has an idea tha would work better for the game?

I plan to scale things based on 8 foot high walls, in 4 foot sections. Standard doors would be 6 feet 8 inches tall (same as my wife!). This is what I'm familiar with, but maybe there's a different standard in another country that would work better for us? Perhaps the original grid was based on meters? I don't know. I just don't want to make buildings that soldiers don't fit in or look out of scale next to. I know the models can be scaled easily enough, so perhaps this won't be an issue.

Since I'm at work, all I can do is ponder right now, but I think I should stop pondering and start making models and deal with it from there. So hopefully I can get some samples made this weekend and post some screen shots!

[red knight]

I dont know, but not everybody use the same metric scale... UK at least doesnt use Metres like I do in Argentina. But make sure all models have the same scale... for example if we say that a 1.80 metres tall soldier is a 1 in the scale, lets stick to it and make doors 1.09 tall. I hope you understand where im going... if not just ask.

About the time units, you are right, no grid and maybe no grid like farms like in the original (we have to find out how difficult is to code a random generator without parcels) the terrain is not difficult i had already done that for a Fractals Course i had taken... So you do the building, then we can use occlussion tests and that stuff to show the inner part, and if it complicates to much, just AND with a box and store it as n levels in the file.

Greetings
Red Knight

[Breunor]

That sounds good Red Knight, I'll make sure everything is proportional. I design the parts around how the original game worked, with wall sections and floor sections, etc. I don't know all the fine details of Rhino3D, but I'll learn what I can.

I was able to get the textures from the 3D home design program I have, does anybody recommend a program to apply the textures to the model faces? I have 3DOBuilder, which I used for making Total Annihilation units, but it saves in a format specific to TA I think. Any suggestions are appreciated! Also, any links to tutorials specific to this that I can read are also appreciated!

[Deimos]

Breunor, don't worry too much about your comments. I'm just a little on the sensitive side today, usually things like that don't bother me all that much. (Though your post was pretty much a truism as I've spoke to a lot of Americans who very much believe what you said, bad tomatoes I guess) Anyway onward and upward

As to your question on 3d modelling, there are a couple of packages everybody is recommending. The first is Blender http://www.blender3d.org (though I don't get on with it others in here do like it) and Milkshape http://www.swissquak...chumbalum-soft/ though this is more suited for character modelling. Blender is open source and Milkshape is pretty cheap IIRC $20.

There is another option which is Gmax by the same guys who make 3dsmax. http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/ The file format is locked as standard but there are filters and importers out there tha open this up as a very powerful and free tool. As for tutorials there are loads and loads. I know because I've jut got into 3d modelling for the project and have been reading up on quite a few.

To your next point. I'd like to see some of London put in but as it's the capital I don't think the aliens would terror attack it. Most of the style of our not so fair country is victorian gothic, examples of which I posted in the urls earlier. As for road signs well here are a few
http://www.european-...o.uk/stsign.htm
http://www.bris.ac.uk/imagelib/ts.html


RK, the UK is in a transitional period (and has been for a fair few years) whereby we are using both metric and imperial measurements. The EU wants us to use all their weights and measurements and there is a fair amount of people in the country that are keen to tell them where to stick them (and how far up in both metric and imperial )
The one good thing about it is that converting imperial to metric and vice versa is something that some of us are quite good at

[Maverick]

i'm using 3d studio max, as you may not have access to that, try milkshape or blender. If nothing else you could take the models that you can create in the one program, open them up and skin/texture them in the other to finalize.

side note: the original x-com considered a sqare 1 square meter, however that was only conceptual. You may find no reference to it in meters in code or in the game. (don't ask why i know these things...i spent way too long searching for this site......)

[Breunor]

Thanks for the links Deimos, I've saved those pics and they'll be a great help. I'll get Blender in case I have trouble using Rhino to texture things. I had a little time last night to create a very rough sample. These shots don't look too swift without texturing but hopefully give a general idea. In case they look REALLY bad, it's a normal staircase and a spiral staircase, along with the wireframe of a simple building. Also included are some samples of textures that I'll use once I read the manual I have a feeling the models will look slightly better with those textures properly applied!

(Had to remove picture, out of space!)

[Deimos]

Sorry to say but, the image isn't visible. All I get is a little box with an x.

[MarS]

i see it, looks pretty good

[Breunor]

I'm not sure what's wrong with it, the image shows up for me. I did have trouble accessing this forum yesterday, sometimes it won't come up at all. Maybe it was somehow related. I'm trying out gmax as an alternative to Rhinocerous3D, so it will be a few days until something worth review is posted.

[Fatal_Error]

darn why cant i see it

edit: i had to edit this one coz it said "...why CAN i see..."

[LordT]

More! Give me more!!!
Looks good. Can't say i LOVE it but it does look good.
That's probably because of the low resolution anyway

And for those who cant se the pic (IE anyway...): right-click the box and go into the properties and copy its URL, paste it in a new window.

[Fatal_Error]

WHOOOPEEE I CAN SEE IT NOW

and great work!!! i almost started work on those starways myself but u did better than me ever would prolly
and as lordT said ...gimmi mo!!

[Deimos]

Aha, I managed to get it open. In Mozilla it just didn't show at all .Very cool. Thise stairs will present a great tactical challenge.

[Breunor]

Thanks again for the link to gmax Deimos, I'm learning how to use it and it does a much better job with the models. It seems limited on export formats though, I need to look around and find out what format the programmers need these objects in. Here's a shot of the spiral staircase, IMHO it's much better than before:

Attached Files

•  spiral.gif   33.74K   15 downloads

[Fatal_Error]

!!! are fo real coz im not sure if im dreaming or not ...ok ok it might not be professional work (hope i didnt inslut u coz iirc then your not a pro modeller right?) but it sure as heck kicks arse keep up the good work!

[Breunor]

Nowhere near a pro modeller, I work in LAN support. Besides the tutorials for the gmax program I've made a chunk of brick wall with a window frame and these samples. In the past I made some units for Total Annihilation, but that used different tools that don't translate to this. :crying:

My idea with these stairs, is that when compared to the original game they take up a 2x2 section in the battlescape. This allows enough room for the unit to navigate up the spiral. I'll also be making a floor-with-railing piece that goes with every set of stairs, similar to the first picture posted. We can make our our civilians a bit more safety conscious

[gangsta]

Thanks again for the link to gmax Deimos, I'm learning how to use it and it does a much better job with the models. It seems limited on export formats though, I need to look around and find out what format the programmers need these objects in. Here's a shot of the spiral staircase, IMHO it's much better than before:

wow this reminds me of one of my projects I had to do for my computer graphics programming class at the university. I had to make those kinda stairs and the user got to set how many steps there where. had the rail and everything too.

[Breunor]

Another thought, don't know if this will be necessary or not. If the terrain has a 3D surface, with rises and falls in the surface, do we need to worry about it coming up through the floor? Until I find out more about this, I'm making a foundation level which will act as a buffer between the buildings and the ground. It also makes it easier to attach a porch to the front of the house.

Then we could put gas lines in through the foundation, and you could then rupture those lines to blow up the house, similar to the gas station in the original game. Just don't tell the aliens they can do that... he he!

[gangsta]

terrain probably will be flat where buildings are.

[red knight]

terrain probably will be flat where buildings are.

I had been thinking to use Height Fields for that, so theres no problem in doing buildings places flat... Fractals are very useful and customizables to look in the way you want.

Greetings
Red Knight

[Breunor]

Made some progress today on objects. Since Gmax can't save in the proper format, I'm using Rhino to create the objects and saving them to .3ds format. There's plenty of other formats as well in case that one doesn't work. I can then import to Gmax to apply a texture and take a screen shot, but I can't really save anything in Gmax and use it later. Mostly to make sure textures apply correctly.

So far we have the following: blank wall template, wall w/window, wall w/door, window frame, upper and lower sections of stairs, and a covered porch. I had a screen shot of all this, but it got messed up. So later on I'll post one. They tile together nicely to make a finished product.

To make the textures more consistent, I'll probably modify the picture size to match the objects, so they're not stretched as much.

[Fatal_Error]

ok it seems that we have 4 ACTIVE graphics artists already:
FE (me )
Deimos
Maverick
Breunor (the newest member)

sry if i left someone out...feel free to give me a BIG slap in the face

so as we discussed with Deimos and i think Maverick is aware of this too we should have a meeting of some kind. id reccomend ICQ chat if that is ok with all though yes there are other means . the idea is to make plans and divide short time graphics and moddeling tasks so that we wont do doubles not that its bad but its unpractical at the moment.

NB! Mav and Breunor please PM me about this

[red knight]

I suggest all of you to learn how to use the task management in sourceforge... you can add what is needed and then manage that from there... and assign something to a developer. The arts department core members (admins) could add tasks and update them... Its a good way to let others know what you are doing...

Im giving you access to the task management right now.

Edit: When you learn how to use that, tell me and will give you post and modify access to it...

Greetings
Red Knight

[Breunor]

I agree with a joining of the minds on this. Overall it shouldn't matter if there's a little overlap, as it will provide variety in the game, but we'll be done sooner if we focus on what's still needed. I added my ICQ# to my profile, which is 69881954. I'm at -6:00GMT, and would be available most days between 22:00 and 04:00GMT. A weekend might be best.

On a side note, I'll be MIA next week, as I remodel my kitchen. I doubt I'll be doing much other than that and sleep.

I tried to access the task lists on Sourceforge yesterday after Red Knight's post, but was unsuccessful. It didn't show any lists available, and wouldn't let me add one either. I was logged in, was I missing some step there? Do I need to install something like CVS for this?

I downloaded Milkshape yesterday, so I'll be learning how to use it. Hopefully the third program's the charm!

[Fatal_Error]

ok the meeting is agreed then but the details will still need to be sorted out and i still have to install a mo powerful version of icq or trillian though as i understood Mav aint very availavle this week (nor the next one?) so we should prolly do it at the end of the next week or this weekend if Mav is available . i or Deimos will make a post about this later when we have mo info

*making access-lift model and basescape view and tha new web page and a lot of other things ...*

[Breunor]

I doubt I'll be available this weekend, as that's when the demolition starts :uzzi: I added myself to the sourceforge mailing list as well, no luck with accessing tasks for the art department section yet. I'm guessing it's not active yet? Not really necessary I guess until we have the meeting. Like FE just did, why doesn't everybody list what they're currently doing here so we get an idea of what's going on, then we can make a list of remaining items and go from there. At least then we'll have an idea to start from when we chat.

Breunor's learning Milkshape, will be reworking models for mailbox, front porch, doorframe/door template, windowframe/window template.

Currently using a scale of 4 foot squares, walls being 8 feet tall. This may not scale well to 1 meter squares, we should pick a unit everyone likes and use it for consistency. I think 1 meter squares will probably work best, but I think height should be greater than 2 meters (since I'm 1.98 meters tall, don't want to scrape my head!). I suggest 2.5 meter height for walls, a nice round number that's close to our non-metric standards as well.

What are people's thoughts on these sizes? If everybody's already using something consistent, let's use that.

[Fatal_Error]

i would agree to the dimentions if i knew how to use em in tha milkshape ... right now im just modelling and trying to make everything in a specific model look like it fits in

[Breunor]

Hopefully there's some type of view option for dimensions in Milkshape, I don't think holding a ruler up to the screen will work very well! I noticed there are several plugins available for Milkshape. Which ones are people using?

If we can posts files to sourceforge in the future, I can put some nice building textures up there. What color depth should they be, or does it matter? I think these are 16bit color, 250x250pixels in size.

[Fatal_Error]

Hopefully there's some type of view option for dimensions in Milkshape, I don't think holding a ruler up to the screen will work very well! I noticed there are several plugins available for Milkshape. Which ones are people using?

if u download the latest version then most of the plugins that are available for download are already included in the main prog ...if not all

[Fatal_Error]

WHOOPEE just noticed that the board has got smarter meaning it now knows what i mean by Alt+S

[Maverick]

Currently I'm working on some environmental models, though I could use some help with the lighting. (i'm trying to make light posts, street lights, etc. I'm making a couple versions of each so that they can be put where they belong)

[Fatal_Error]

Currently I'm working on some environmental models, though I could use some help with the lighting.  (i'm trying to make light posts, street lights, etc.  I'm making a couple versions of each so that they can be put where they belong)

i was working on one too but no worries coz they're prolly very different ... i can think of 3 different main lamppost types in eastern europe and prolly russia

[Maverick]

I've got two from Western US. Another thing we should talk about is how many models to really include in the game, because it might turn out not to be feasable to make every area completely different, in which case I would suggest that the models that "fit" into the most environments would be chosen as the standard, with alternates for the places we can manage. (this should not be a concern now, just try and make models that won't look right if you changed their surroundings.)

[Breunor]

Here's a question that I think is relevant at this point: how thick should walls be? I was pondering this one designing interiors for some houses. I think we could get away with something scaled to 2 in/5 cm thick, which won't get in the way much, but still provides a little depth. If we agree to use 1 meter base squares and 2.5 meters for standard height of a single story, then wall thickness should also be the same between models (unless this can be easily changed after the fact). At the very least, if we can agree now we won't have to rework anything in the future. We can then post guidelines to the sourceforge list about what our agreed-to standards are, and add to them as we need to.

What do you all think? Anything else we should consider at this point?

[Maverick]

I think, having talked to J^2 and read what he has posted here that one of foremost priorities right now should be to develop a document that posts all of the relevant information for modeling as soon as possible, because otherwise there will be many reworkings of everything later on. We need to come up with as much specific information as possible right now and document it. slight modifications can be made to that document if need be, and the document needs to be checked by the programmers for their input after it has been finished (to identify as many of those slight changes as they can think of before we get too far). We need to set our own standards and then see what they can do with them. In order to test your images so far, Render it in 800x600 resolution to see how it looks, because that is what we will be using within the battlescape (if I am correct). So 2 cm may appear to not even be a wall, but a plane. Just check and them make a recommendation when we work things out for sure at the meeting. I'll also be posting a few screenshots of models I've been working on later on another site. If anyone is clear on how to add lighting to a model, I could use some help. Every time I try to add lighting it over-rides the natural lighting and makes the majority of the model go black. Plus I think it would be cool to have destroyable lighting.

here are two screenshots:
the first is of the total lamp
the second is a close up of the top to show the texturing I used. As stated, i need help adding an actual light inside the glass.

http://th391228.brav...s.com/pics.html

there are popups

Edited by Maverick, 12 February 2003 - 03:54 AM.

[Breunor]

The idea of a document sounds good Maverick. Perhaps that can be kept on Sourceforge as well if we start using that along with the mailing list more? It would be easier than hunting through posts I think.

I don't think the resolution will be a problem with the thickness of the walls, rather the size of the monitor would. 800x600 makes stuff huge on my 19", but it may be too small like you suggest on a 15" monitor.

I'm not sure about the lighting, but should there also be ambient lighting in the scene when you render? Otherwise, it would show parts as black, since the light has nothing to reflect off of. Once placed in a town environment, you'll have other light sources as well as buildings and roads with a certain level of reflectance to bounce the light off of. Even then, driving down a highway at night, you really can't see much of the light posts other than the illuminated bases.

The model you made looks really good. It looked like you used an extruded octogon for the pole, is that right? I was going to try that out as well to see if it was smooth enough, but based on yours it looks good. I also would like to be able to target light sources. I'm planning some porches for houses with a lamp or two attached, and thought it would be nice to be able to shoot them out.

It would also be funny if aliens, by default, picked up any light sticks they find since they don't need them. So if you miss one in a sweep, it may collect the sticks and then you're in the dark when you come back to find it... :devilsmile:

[Fatal_Error]

as far as i know the lights shouldnt be rendered nor modelled into the models coz they need to be dynamic thus if RK confirmas this then i think you shouldnt really worry about the light source

oh and Mav, Deimos, Breunor GOT OT SOURCEFORGE!!! list any missing tasks that have either been done or are under development that aint listed yet ...coz that list should ...ummm must contain complete info for the sake of us all oh and subscribe to mailing list if u havent yet

[Breunor]

I'm still denied permission to add tasks in sourceforge, but I can view ones already there. I asked RK about this, so for now if somebody could put me down for door/window templates, also porches, that's what I'll work on to start. Also, I've posted some sample textures that should work well for these models, located here:Xenocide Textures

Each image is uncompressed, 24 bit bmp format, 128x128 pixels in size, weigh in at 48kb each. Hopefully these are usable, I was able to apply them to models in gmax, but couldn't export them in a usable format from there. I have more textures available, including exterior/interior walls, various marble/wood flooring, grass/stone surfaces, even carpeting and wallpaper. I can more up if anyone has specific requests, I'll try to match what I have to the need. There's about 200 total, I can't put them all up at one time due to space.

[Breunor]

Thanks everybody for the help, I can post tasks now, and I've updated my items as well.