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#1 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 02:59 PM

well boys, i was thinking a lot and ... why shouldīnt manking to develop itīs own plasma guns. Because they need elerim and cause they mostly use alien ones...

But if we were able to develop, not plama, but particle beams (particle cannon) that wouldīnt require elerium (Particle Beam is being developed by the US).

Perhaps in Xenocide we might put it as a result of developing both, plasma and laser weapons.

Here some conditions of it.

- A VERY expensive weapon (300000 each heavy Particle Cannon).

- Amunition will be limited in battlescape (35 as plasma) but no clips will be needed. It will also recharge a little after certain number of turns (1 beam each 3 turns).

- The same damage as plasmaīs

- Even more range (60 Km) for particle guns.

- Youīd need to research both, heavy laser and heavy plasma to produce heavy PC, also plasma and laser pistol to produce PC pistol and so on.

This is my best Idea, so please, answer and include it... :master: :crying1: :sorry: =b

#2 mikker

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 03:42 PM

It's not urgant. In fact, i don't really like it. Just a plasma with more range. 300.000 isn't really that much. Especially if it's without clips.

Would unbalance the game, alines would never stand a chance, not even from start.

Sorry, but bad idea. I like the idea of particle weapons, but that is kinda like what the laser is (somewhat).

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#3 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 08:13 AM

1. Laser is NOT a particle weapon. Is an energy one.

2. You can correct the prices, and balance it... perhaps 600000 would be better.. but youīll se and you can correct it.

3. I suggested the particle beam because IT IS BEING DEVELOPED RIGHT NOW!!!!! so is a human tecnology. That is even more destructive than plasma, by the way it makes the target to explode. That would be a balance point, asu we couldīnt pick up anything (launchers, grenades, corpses) from an alien that has been extermined with a PB.

4. My idea is not final... IS OPEN TO CORRECT IT!!!! :idea:

5. Read this one

http://www.airpower....ug/roberds.html

Edited by Adun_Toridas, 14 January 2005 - 09:10 AM.


#4 sir_schwick

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 02:18 PM

Here are some changes that would make it more playable.

It is between plasma and laser in terms of power and range.
It requires clips, just like other weapons, but they do not require elerium.
Is different damage than laser or plasma for armour purposes.

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 10:05 PM

And certainly, if this weaponry is achievable, it must be the United States, not the Soviet Union, that first develops it.

LOL

#6 Blehm 98

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 10:57 PM

yes, and it would have to be veerrryyyy heavy. I woulnd't mind a particle sniper, but it would be slightly unbalanced. I'm thinking around... lets say, 24 pounds for a heavy particle beam, that way, even the strongest soldiers will have problems with weight(requires a specialized soldier)
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#7 sir_schwick

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 01:30 AM

:Coffee: I could lift 24 pound.

An M-16 weighs 16 pounds as it is. Now if you wante dit to be super heavy, make it weigh as much as a mini-gun and require power armour to carry. Personally downgrading it the way I suggested would be much more fun and intuitive.

#8 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 09:11 AM

Mmm, by picking up your opinions, i see that we could put the PB as... 70 (normal rifle between laser and plasma), and 110 (slightly lesser than hard plasma). That would be fair.

Also, it would be the same weight as autocannon. That should be good (auto weights a LOT).

But, What about particle guns and defenses? perhaps a particle hovertank would be useful. I donīt know. But would like to hear your opinions about the Particle Beamīs tecnology tree...

#9 Blehm 98

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 12:23 PM

well, the average human in the game has around 30 strength, and the weapon weight 24 units, i was just using pounds because i wasn't thinking about that, but i guess a 24 pound gun would be annoying if you want to move....
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#10 sir_schwick

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 03:25 PM

PB hovertank would be really useful because of a few factors:

1) You designed the technology, so its slightly more efficient form on the chassis then the plasma version.
2) It utilizes non-elerium sources so ammo is not a problem.
3) Useful for hunting plasma resistant types.

#11 Blehm 98

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 04:23 PM

lo-l, Pb is paintball...
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#12 sir_schwick

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 06:56 PM

LOL, that would make a great Easter Egg. After finishing research on Tank Particle Beam, you could research Tank PaintBall.

#13 T-1

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 10:06 AM

Paintball tank:
You'd have to do some special action first to get it. And then it'd have tons of health but only fires with infinite ammo paintballs that do as much damage as the rifle.

#14 sir_schwick

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 11:12 AM

Actually I was thinking it should be a joke Easter Egg that fired special paintballs.

They owuld have really high ROF.
Very low damage.
Paints target with flourescent glow.
Could blind target.
If you hit all aliens then a popup comes up saying "You won the round."

#15 mikker

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 01:08 PM

maybe we could have a console and you have to type "allyourbasearebelongtoxcorps" to enable cheats. Then you can type in cheats, like "paintballsrule" and you get a pb tank :P

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#16 Qonfused

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 03:12 PM

first of, that article is 20 years old.

Why make a new version of the plasma rifle when the aliens deliver a close to perfect design right at our dorsteps?

recharging clips, how would that work? magic?

the range of rifle is somthing like 3km, no one is able to aim at that lenght, so why make a weapon with a longer range?

and you say these things are being developed at the moment, then why didnt you find a more up to date article?
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#17 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 07:24 AM

first of, that article is 20 years old.

Why make a new version of the plasma rifle when the aliens deliver a close to perfect design right at our dorsteps?

recharging clips, how would that work? magic?

the range of rifle is somthing like 3km, no one is able to aim at that lenght, so why make a weapon with a longer range?

and you say these things are being developed at the moment, then why didnt you find a more up to date article?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


1. Read the Article i put before, they are RESEARCHING IT.

2. Someone said they could use normal clips, not rechargeable ones, but with not elerium on them (perhaps expensive). That might correct this problem.

3. When talking about range, i was talking about AIRCRAFTīS particle beam...

4. New plasma?, Well because our plasmas will NOT need elerium (even thought they will deliver slightly lesser damage than normal ones).

#18 Qonfused

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 04:07 PM

It dosnt matter if the article says its under research when the article is 20 years old.
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#19 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 09:05 AM

I also notice that the partical beam weapon requires an amazing amount of energy. That 20 yr old article says itself that it would require an entire power plant's worth of resources just to power one gun. For a PB weapon to not require Xenium, it just doesn't sound right.

Also, looking at the amount of energy invested for our 3 favorite types of projectile...

Bullets - Relatively low energy applied to a high mass. Simple explosives are already mixed with each shot, and can set these things going. The mass itself does the damage.

Plasma- High energy applied to a moderate mass. These weapons can take all the time in the world to prepare the plasma for shooting. As long as the power source can heat it up faster than it can cool down, and still be battle effective, it's good enough. You don't need alot of energy to speed the projectile, as the plasma itself does the damage. Even so, it still requires a very powerful energy source like Xenium, and you can only draw so much antimatter from it before it says "no more".

Particle beam - Exceptional energy applied to a microscopic mass. Unlike plasma or bullets, which can be prepared ahead of time, these shots must be super-accelerated in a microscopic time frame, or it's worthless. Requires an insane amount of energy to get the particle up to speed before it leaves the gun. Where will that incredible energy come from? And how big would that kind of energy source be?


How can we make particle beams, when plasma is less demanding on the power source, and already requires Xenium? And even if we could, what sort of scale would it be? Troop sized PB weapons look pretty bleak, and X-Caps seem like it would be pushing it. Craft-sized weapons might be possible with a big enough Xenium source. IMO, you could only get a base defense with PB, and even then it would be tough and demanding. Underground bases don't exactly have room for a gigantic power station.
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#20 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 11:02 AM

1. Yes youīre right, PB requires more energy, but itīs more destructive.

Itīs a problem very similar to laser ones. Today, the only way we can use a Laser gun is to put it long time onto a target. And thatīs difficult

2. Think that the article is not so "official" so... we are not really concious of our tecnology. If i dont mistake, iīve read here http://www.burlingto...et/ufonazi.html that some ufos might have been a manmade product... (unfortunatelly a nazi one)... hehehe, imagine a blonde muton with a svastika on his chest ;) :) :LOL

3. The main problem with plasmas, is that itīs VERY HARD to put the muzzle in optimus conditions. I mean plasma is a GAS so, most of energy goes to keep that plasma in optimus conditios in order to strike the target before defusing.

4. The only human tecnology (not elerim bases) that can provide the power to BC is nuclear one.

Remember the X-Ray Laser experiment here http://www.llnl.gov/str/Dunn.html, and youīll know what i mean.

#21 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 04:13 PM

Sorry, but iīve just got some new conditions to make the PB to work, please analize them ... :D

Advantages.

a. 140 of Damage!!!!.
b. No ammo required.
c. No alien particulary resistant to this.

Disadvantages.

a. Cost about 600,000 to create one and twice hours to create it.
b. Cost 5 allien alloys and 25 ELERIUM!!!
c. Weights double than autocannon.
d. No auto capacity.
e. The most important. Not only explodes the corpse into a little explosion, but all the guns it may carry!!!! (so no bounty on them... )

Now, please analize this new conditions and tell me what you think... (donīt be to rough, please :D)

#22 sir_schwick

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 09:48 PM

Why have such and outrageous and out of character weapon? While it may be feasible, its use would only be by those players which are ridiculously overburdened with money and supplies. That means it definitely falls in the category of easter egg rather than regular weapon.

#23 mikker

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 02:31 PM

I don't see how it's only for people overburdened. I could easily get 10 of these suckas at once if i wanted to, in the late game.

Those new balance terms are better. I like it now.

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#24 x0563511

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:20 AM

OK, since they need so much power...

How about using it as base defenses? Since the range is so high (and would be aimed by computer/AI) and the particle could puncture through matter easily, you could knock one UFO out of the air* (or severely damage) per gun, per base assault. Each gun would be fairly small, but the attached power plant would be fairly large.

* Imagine an AI using a scanned database, that "snipes" the engine core from 30km away. Before you could attack a UFO with it, you would have had to capture that UFO class and have time specifically researching it (they would be scannign the UFO and building the database). Single engine UFOs would crash and burn very close to the base (maybe close enough for the survivors to attack? or your troops to simply drive out and to bag em). Mutli engine UFOs would take severe damage based on how many surviving engines after all the PBs fire (and hit). More damage = less chance to get through other defenses and either less attacking units (or some having fatal wounds or lowered health - maybe even damaged equipment)

Edited by x0563511, 12 May 2005 - 01:20 AM.


#25 Snakeman

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 03:31 PM

I tend to agree with others who've said that something like this may only be feasible for a base defense module...Probably have to be oversized to account for its separate power requirements (might be a bad idea if this base weapon shared power from the rest of the base - on the other hand, it could also make using it prohibitive to other avenues in terms of power and cost investment like this).

I mean, for example, in a couple other threads we've been tossing around ideas about expanding the end game a bit in terms of stepping stones i.e. Colonize Mars first and then uncover through other alien bases there, the Cydonia base (rather than going there from the get go after getting your first spacecraft).

Another idea, I think this one shwick first proposed, was going after one achievement type thing by building a space carrier (a mobile base could be considered invaluable pre-Cydonia). Since it may tie up considerable resources and money to make in the first place, and considering this project may not stay secret from the aliens for long, its construction facility will need protection.

Perhaps this is where this type of base protection could be warranted. Again, because the others do a decent job of it, this would have to fall into one of those sorta mega anti-ship guns categories. Besides which, to consider its implimentation, other balance factors should be looked at, for instance, increased retaliations to the base facility that is responsible for the protection of something akin to that carrier project.

Maybe the aliens by this point have hidden their "really big guns", and have only unleashed their carrier counterparts when they discover yours in the works. My guess is, is that if this base defense module was ground based too, with yards in orbit creating your carrier, you also open up holes in those yards defense when you consider that perhaps the orbiting yards will not be geosynchornous. i.e. holes in its protection open up based upon the spinning planet/orbit of the yards.

You might have to invest heavily for all your bases around the world to have this mega gun if you wanted increased cover potential for the orbiting project being made.

The less expensive (yet by no means cheap) option would be to use your Avengers on orbital patrol around it. That ties up craft which may not stop all the alien's regular UFO missions on the planet.

#26 T-1

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 08:14 AM

Once it's fully constructed, the carrier should be equipped with some weapons also. If all else fails, get some flying/power armor on and get out there and try to blaster bomb/rocket launcher/heavy plasma the ufo to death. Sure, wouldn't be too effective, unless you had a lot of people with blaster launchers. Also, the fact that you punched a hole into the UFO is going get some aliens sucked out into space. Also, you should get some nukes and soften Cydonia up a bit before you attack. Maybe make some more powerful weapons using antimatter blasterbomb tech. Or if you want to make attack Cydonia a suicide attack, get everyone aboard the carrier into avengers, and set the carrier to accelerate straight into Cydonia, filled with C4, so when you get there, trigger the C4 from inside the avengers. If the brain isn't dead by then, you can just blaster bomb the place to death.

#27 Snakeman

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 07:15 PM

It certainly is an interesting tactic for the money invested, but hey, there ought to be different ways to approach the same objective(s) once they're known.

In any case, thinking on this particle beam business some more, I'm inclined to think that X-COM would probably tinker around with, what you say, the blaster bomb tech to make something better of it for massive uses like this.

Or, if its about enhancing Earth gear, my guess, presuming you wouldn't want the heavy time/money investment in beam weaponry or blaster bomb tech upgrades, to go the way of furthering the missile defenses somehow.

Anyway, I'm all for different research paths one could take based on time and money management as you'd played. I think it all basically boils down to "what can we do with our oodles of cash end-game?" sort of category which has essentially got us thinking along these lines to begin with.

Go with a mega gun, fleets of Avengers, mobile carrier, better missile/uber blaster bombage, all of the above? etc.

A lot of these ideas depend upon how we could extend the gaming pre/post discovering Cydonia not to mention expected cash flows on each difficulty level or the org aiming for some self sufficiency on the up curve when things are optimal.

This is probably the only area of gaming - when things are going financially well for X-COM - to have the option to invest in something akin to this cannon. Whether this cannon is energy based (particle, plasma, laser), or projectile based (heaps 'o bullets, missiles, alien and/or alien hybrid stuff).

#28 sir_schwick

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 10:05 PM

As I said before, introducing 'expensive pipe-dream super-weapons' is not conducive to what I consider the X-COM experience, at least outside an Easter Egg form. However the PB could fill a hole in weapons evolution and offer another interesting link at the end of the game.

Particle Beam technology would be a fusion of things learned from studying Laser weapons and Plasma weapons. These would not be the super-weapons of theory, but practical versions of weapons that could be powered by technology that humans can produce easily and cheaply. They also have the advantage of damaging targets in a different manner than Plasma weapons. This means that PB make up for their power difference by negating the additional bonuses of plasma-resistant armours aliens commonly wear.

Beam Pistol - Because of efficiency to size issues, the Beam Pistol will seam underwhelming when compared to the rate of fire of the laser pistol or the net effective power of the plasma pistol. If your low on Plasma clips, this might be a consideration.

Beam Rifle - A very practical weapon that only requires AA to build, along with AA for its ammo. Clip capacity is greater than the HP while net effective power is slightly less than the Plasma Rifle. Rate of fire is slower than other rifles, but accuracy is very good.

Heavy Beam - The easy to manufacture alternative to HP. Clip capacity is double that of the HP, but net effective damage is still less than the HP. Rate of fire is the same as the HP and accuracy is comprable.

Beam Defence - Xenium 113 is hard to provide logistically, even for infantry level weapons or craft weapons. The needs of a base defence facility using Plasma or Xenium-based Fusion weapons nearly impossible. However size to efficiency ratios at this size make particle beams the equivalent of theorhetically similar sized Plasma arrays.

Hovertank Beam - These hovertanks require far less Elerium and have a main PB that is slightly stronger than the Heavy Beam. Also require less time to build because PB are originally human tech.

Craft Beam - These craft weapons have very high ammo storage due to the efficiency of ammunition. While less powerful than similar Plasma craft weapons, they are similar in ROF and accuracy.


Anothe note would be that Plasma weapons could be manufactured, but human versions of the plasma weapons and ammo would be less powerful because they have not fully understood the manufacturing or science behind it. Having alien rifles to use would still be more useful than manufacturing your own.

#29 mikker

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 04:24 AM

what about this; the aliens will get access to beam technology later in the game? It will be human origin, but the aliens stole it.

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#30 Snakeman

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 09:53 PM

I think it only logical mikker that, to some degree through the course of fighting us, the aliens would want to study what we're using against them. From weaponry, to tools, and maybe even info from abductees we've failed to rescue.

It also sounds intriguing of the possiblity, albeit probably in later incarnations, when its decided we can play as the enemy. I figure both sides would benefit to some extent in terms of hybrid designs. But also aliens get to do nifty things like abduct people and infiltrate governments.

#31 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 01:21 PM

Perhaps in multi, aliens stealing human tech would be nice... All in all, PB shows as a very practical (and much better than laser) weapon.

But letīs say that aliens may have them ONCE they have captured a base or won a mission in wich our men would have got PBīs.