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#1 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 12:10 PM

About Martial Arts... i think that some X-Com guys could learn martial arts. I know someone said that mutons resist a bullet but... believe me, sometimes a bullet is not able not take down a wall, but a martial artist can. So gimme your opinnions and corrections.

Also to carry a Katana for some of them would be nice...

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In that way, we could create a Martial Arts Specialized soldier. With far more Tuīs and harder to hit (evasion like ninja) and jumping capability.

#2 mikker

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 12:12 PM

god no, that only happens in X-com menace....

Some people say that dreams are a portal to the subconscious. If that is so, I am a very disturbed person.

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#3 Qonfused

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 04:08 PM

ehhh, martial arts always lose to a gun in real life.
My doctor says that I have a malformed public duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therfore exused from saving Universes.

#4 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 07:28 AM

1. Yes they lose...

2. if they are at boot camp, but how about ninja operations. They are far effective (they might use poisoned shurikens for ranged attack) or a katana for melee one.

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#5 Tuoppi

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 08:16 AM

I would prefer a black-ops grunt with poison-bullet mp5 anytime over that.

#6 Tortanick

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 02:07 PM

Ninjas would have a chance where honourable martial artists don't.

E.G. invisible in dim light. Huge attack at short range, (jump onto a mutons back and stab with a poisoned sword)

A stiki bomb that glues itelf to an opponent, halo plasma grenade style although it may have to be close combat. HUGE moral damage but you caould pick it up and throw it away unless

1) your too dumb

2) your in a panic

3) you can't reach.

#7 T-1

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 03:38 PM

NO

#8 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 03:51 PM

NO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



arguments please...

#9 T-1

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 04:10 PM

I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculous, that IMO, I shouldn't have to explain why.

#10 Qonfused

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 05:47 PM

....
E.G. invisible in dim light. Huge attack at short range, (jump onto a mutons back and stab with a poisoned sword)
....

more pain: "run up to the a muton and capp his donkey repetedly with a combat shootgun"
even more pain: "stand back and lett the granade luncher do its thing, muton goes splat splat"

Seriusly, if they can survive a bazoka(and they do at superhuman) than a wimpy sword wont do any good!
My doctor says that I have a malformed public duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therfore exused from saving Universes.

#11 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 09:00 AM

1. mmmm vibroblades might do the job.... we have them in TFTD...

2.If you donīt want to argument... well, it might be taken as a childs "I DONīT WANT IT BECAUSE NOOOOO AND NOOOO AND NOOOOO", and thatīs understandable...

#12 JakeDrake

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 01:20 PM

NO

...

Seconded



This is completely unnecessary. Not only would it add very very little to actual gameplay, but it goes against what Xcom is all about. The entire motif of XCom has been a pseudo-realistic fantasy world that is almost believable but not quite. Having stealthy ninjas around during a firefight is completely unrealistic. I would hate to be serving under a general that commisions unarmed soldiers to go up against plasma-toting aliens with only an ancient sword and a few ninja stars. Ninjas simply do not belong in XCom .

Please get your fix of superhuman ninja warriors by watching anime.

P.S. if anyone suggests cybernetic ninjas with stealth camoflage there is gonna be a public spanking.

Preview:
:spank:


P.P.S.
I like the sketch of the ninja though, did you draw that adun?

Edited by JakeDrake, 20 January 2005 - 01:22 PM.

pancakes?

#13 T-1

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 03:38 PM

Thank you JakeDrake for translating my thoughts into an understandable post.

#14 Shinzon

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 06:03 PM

heh ninjas and pirates are always cool no matter what...


BUT


They just dont belong in the x-com atmosphere... the closest chance of them getting into the game is if a country attacks you or something (Apoc Style) but still would be funny shotting a ninja out of TU's with a blasterbomb...

#15 JakeDrake

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 11:41 PM

Yeah yeah PIRATES! Now those are cool...

*tries to think of a way to work pirates into XCom*

oh yeah! lets just add a new stat: swashbuckling :hammer:

Edited by JakeDrake, 20 January 2005 - 11:42 PM.

pancakes?

#16 j'ordos

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 05:38 AM

Easy: once we incorporate TFTD in Xenocide we can 'borrow' the plot (if you'd like to call it that) from the film (again, see previous comment :P )Deep Rising: voilā, aliens & pirates and xcom together in one volatile mix :D
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#17 Tsereve

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 06:26 PM

I for one like the whole ninja idea. However, they shouldn't be too powerful. Maybe there's a separate option to hire ninjas right below soldiers on the hire screen? And what about poisons that only work on certain alien species? For instance, carry around a Type-A Poison Sword during a Terror Site, spot a Chrysallid, and spend almost all your TUs getting close to it. Then, use your last TUs to stab it with your sword. Pretty much no effect:
"D*mn, wrong poison! I could've sworn I told that worker to--ARGH!"
*drool**stomp**drool*
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#18 Blehm 98

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 07:26 PM

Yes, a ninja comes up behind a sectoid and then snaps out his hands and feet,

*BANG* the sectoids neck breaks
*SPLASH* the sectoid's head explodes, spraying gross gore all over the place
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#19 Tsereve

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 07:36 PM

:devillaugh:
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#20 Shinzon

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 10:51 PM

in that case >.>

mechs as well... :) and cyborgs :) all are cool and all is fun :)

though it would make a good alterante play mode where instead of regular soldgiers you get ninjas... and ressearch is also ninja based...
something like plasma shurekens?

and where before did i hear this: a block of xenium at home will keep you whites whiter"?

that was so funny and yet so true... xenium is like the wonder drug :D

#21 T-1

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 09:15 AM

NO
HOW MANY TIMES DO HAVE TO SAY IT: NO

#22 Blehm 98

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 02:00 PM

Yes, we know. But it is fun to say what if...
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#23 Tsereve

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 08:03 PM

Yeah, the original idea was cool, but now you're just getting. . .
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#24 sir_schwick

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 12:18 AM

I would not mind X-COM troopers able to use close-combat techniques(deadly too). This could bring in the idea of bayonets and bash(not so unrealistic). ALso, if you have anatomy info, you could do devastating attacks from behind with bayonets(think hitting the nerve center or lungs).

HOw4ever this super-human ninja thing is a bit extravagent. Using non-gun methods to kill is not.

#25 Blehm 98

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 12:21 AM

yes, i do beleive you should have a punch attack and a hit attack, like from Halo 2, you come up behind and kill an alien silently without alerting its fellow comrades
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#26 mikker

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 05:01 AM

lets not bring halo stuff into the game, okay?

I think that if you got an unequipted hand, you can do a punch attack. A last resort if you run out of weapons.

Some people say that dreams are a portal to the subconscious. If that is so, I am a very disturbed person.

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#27 Qonfused

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 09:00 AM

you might have assumed that im agains ninjas from my negative post.
but just to make it official:
ninjas in in x-corp or in xenocide att all is a bad bad bad thing.
or just plain NO, for simplisity.
yes a soldier should have the optin to punch a alien if hes out of ammo. but then again any professionl solider should have a field knife. but no kya!!! shuckeroonies, just plain old' stabb. And a stabb attack should always suck, even compared to the standard pistol.

Edited by Qonfused, 23 January 2005 - 09:03 AM.

My doctor says that I have a malformed public duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therfore exused from saving Universes.

#28 sir_schwick

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 01:45 PM

Real infantry and spec ops forces have some pretty sophisticated close combat attacks. THey are useful for very close quarters combat and stealth. Bayonets should be standard on rifle(might increase use of rifle over heavy). Also, a well aimed crushing blow from behind can be more effective than a loud bullet to the head. Anatomy info would be important to allow close combat to be useful.

#29 Tsereve

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 06:46 PM

Qonfused:
Yes, most real soldiers would carry a field knife in battle. But which do you think would use less TUs: a punch, or grabbing a knife from your belt, then stabbing? Stabbing the punching would be about the same, but try taking a grenade from your belt. More TUs than you'd like, huh? So punching would be much quicker.

Mutons can be as durable as they want, but how long can they survive without their heads? A katana would be much more effective than a Heavy Plasma, if used correctly. Well, depending on the alien. The most durable aliens still would be vulnerable to a clear chop, if not a high-energy blast. All except Sectopods and those d*mn Cyberdisks. . .
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#30 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 07:51 PM

Qonfused:
Yes, most real soldiers would carry a field knife in battle.  But which do you think would use less TUs: a punch, or grabbing a knife from your belt, then stabbing?  Stabbing the punching would be about the same, but try taking a grenade from your belt.  More TUs than you'd like, huh?  So punching would be much quicker.

Mutons can be as durable as they want, but how long can they survive without their heads?  A katana would be much more effective than a Heavy Plasma, if used correctly.  Well, depending on the alien.  The most durable aliens still would be vulnerable to a clear chop, if not a high-energy blast.  All except Sectopods and those d*mn Cyberdisks. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



At last someone says something right... A katana may cut the head, but not only that, but cut the muton in 2 also!!! (i donīt imagine a very powerful half muton hehehehe) Also the idea for stealth attack is nice. This kind of attack would not alert they guys and thatīs good.

#31 Tsereve

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 07:59 PM

If having plasma shots cut down the aliens' comrades is already hard on morale, I can't wait to see what three guys suddenly and silently dying will do.

Mutonitus: "I don't see anything. What about you, Mutton?"
Mutton: "Nothing here. Do you really think they're out here with us?"
Mutonitus: "One way to find out. Mutony, what's up with you?"
Mutony: ".......*static*......"
Mutonitus: "Mutony! Report in!"
Mutton: "It's no use. He's gone."
Mutonitus: "What happened? I didn't hear a shot. Did you?"
Mutton: ".......*static*......"
Mutonitus: "What's happening? But no one else heard anythi--ergh. . ."
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#32 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 08:55 AM

NO
HOW MANY TIMES DO HAVE TO SAY IT: NO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Guys... iīve just told you not to forget the milk for the baby... heīs just crying again. :devillaugh:

#33 Tuoppi

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 10:47 AM

Sounds like a very bad idea to me. If a bullet cannot penetrate an armor, how can any melee or thrown weapon? Try to penetrate just 5mm thick iron by thrust or slash. Takes a LOT of effort. Same plate gets easily pierced by standard pistol, and bullet still has ability to damage things. Sword is heavy, cumbersome and slow to carry around, a thing you definitely want to get rid of in a firefight. How fast a "cyberninja" may be, him slashing takes more time than when i pull the trigger. And if need to be silent, a silenced submachine gun makes far less noise than bar of metal crushing bones and cutting flesh.

In general, there happen to be reasons that militaries use firearms nowadays. If ninjas had any use whatsoever, they would be used in some form. Melee fighting as itself is totally different thing. Nowadays close-combat is thaught in most militaries basic training. Some very dirty and brutal moves but effective. An assault rifle can be a devastating melee weapon as itself, a bayonet is very much more a burden than a benefit, as it hinders aiming and slows all movement. Basically it is an invention from times when reloading a gun was very slow, and it was ment to make a gun into usable spear.

There are many reasons not to put this ninja stuff in the game. It ruins the atmosphere, intuitivity of strategies, and is just plain stupid for startups.

#34 mikker

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 12:19 PM

the only argument for putting ninjas in Xenocide is "it would be nice". Please, you need more then that.

Some people say that dreams are a portal to the subconscious. If that is so, I am a very disturbed person.

the truth about scientology

#35 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 01:08 PM

1. Yes, you are right... you need more... but let us think a little right? :)

#36 sir_schwick

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 01:50 PM

Sounds like a very bad idea to me. If a bullet cannot penetrate an armor, how can any melee or thrown weapon? Try to penetrate just 5mm thick iron by thrust or slash. Takes a LOT of effort. Same plate gets easily pierced by standard pistol, and bullet still has ability to damage things. Sword is heavy, cumbersome and slow to carry around, a thing you definitely want to get rid of in a firefight. How fast a "cyberninja" may be, him slashing takes more time than when i pull the trigger. And if need to be silent, a silenced submachine gun makes far less noise than bar of metal crushing bones and cutting flesh.

In general, there happen to be reasons that militaries use firearms nowadays. If ninjas had any use whatsoever, they would be used in some form. Melee fighting as itself is totally different thing. Nowadays close-combat is thaught in most militaries basic training. Some very dirty and brutal moves but effective. An assault rifle can be a devastating melee weapon as itself, a bayonet is very much more a burden than a benefit, as it hinders aiming and slows all movement. Basically it is an invention from times when reloading a gun was very slow, and it was ment to make a gun into usable spear.

There are many reasons not to put this ninja stuff in the game. It ruins the atmosphere, intuitivity of strategies, and is just plain stupid for startups.


I agree, ninjas are stupid. However I do think that either retractable bayonets or at least rifle melee techniques should make it. Even pistol whipping a guy is better than standing there reloading.

ALso, troopers hsould have some stealth melee weapon, for when they get behind a muton. A knife to the lung is more silent than a bullet to the head(not as much external blood). Alien anatomy would reveal such weaknesses.

#37 JakeDrake

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 02:58 PM

Yes, we know.  But it is fun to say what if...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I have nothing against "what if"s as long as they don't distract time away from important topics (ahem), but I'm pretty sure some of these people actually believe there should be an entirely different troop type designated as "Ninja".

Lets get one thing straight folks, most ideas in the lab won't be in Project Xenocide...ever... so don't expect just cuz you and a few others on the board think something is "cool" it will be included. There are much more factors in deciding whether a feature is included than just cool-factor, even if everyone loves the idea:

First off, Artwork. New troop type = new models, textures, weapons, etc. Also if we give Humans a ninja we'll probably want to give the aliens one too for balance, possibly doubling all resourcess spent on ninjas.

Second off, AI. If there are ninjas and stealth we will have to code in very sophisticated line-of-sight, hearing, and memory algorithms for the enemy AI to be realistically susceptible to a stealth trooper. Lots and lots of time required.

Third off, Play balance. One more thing to have to test and get the correct balance of. Basically Ninjas are going to require an entirely different method of playing, effectively requiring a large change in the core gameplay of the BattleScape. I don't want to see the gameplay changed at all, anyone else wanna tinker with a masterpiece?

Fourth, its immature and doesn't fit into the atmosphere and environment of XCom, which we have tried so hard to maintain in PX.

Fifth, its really really unrealistic. Comeon now, conventional swords (even if they were made of alien alloy) are powered by the body. Plasma weaponry is powered by Xenium. Xenium > Body in terms of power output, and if a heavy plasma gun can't shoot burning plasma hot and fast enough to kill a muton with one shot, any sword swung by a human arm (even if burning with plasma itself) can't do it either. Yes a muton doesn't work well without his head, thats why you melt the sucker off with fiery plasma death :).

I think these reasons are sufficient to justify disculsion of any ninja-troop concept, and there are more to be thought of; and so I must suggest that this topic be closed or abandoned because the no interesting ideas have come out of this ninja topic since the initial proposal.
pancakes?

#38 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 03:26 PM

In short..... there won't be ninjas or martial arts in Xenocide, not in V1 or V200, ever. So: NO

#39 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 10:09 AM

i think you are right, ninjas have no place here.

#40 fux0r666

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 10:54 AM

Yah, doods, but if x-corps have martial arts, the aliens must have martial arts..

like it would be really cool to have the sectoids have this martial art that's kind of like ninjitsu and kind of like philippino kali... only it's so freaking fast that when a sectoid busts your bones, it sends a shock-wave through time and you end up being crippled since childhood. That would be totally sweet.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#41 kafros

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 02:35 PM

Well, there is no need to have "NINJAS". But, we shouldn't just think about SuperNINJAS and extraordinary Matrix-Youuuuuu-Yahakiiiiii!

Food for thought:
A normal rookie just knows how to handle a gun. But, he can receive martial art training! Not just :pink: punches, but serious blows! Nice head kicks, "centralised" hits in specific parts of the body (anatomy info would be nice, as sir-sandwich commented, and I just love his idea). AAAAAAAAND!, when the soldier recieves psi attack, he can also concetrate more, so he can achieve more accurate blows! AAAAAAAAND!, he can also use his psi powers in order to confuse the enemy in short distance, so that's another way he can deal good hits by using martial arts....

Damn, I'm good baby! :banana:

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#42 Sergio

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 04:22 PM

If we are gonna have Ninjas why not have Street Preachers to bore the aliens to death, or perhaps used car salesman who can pester teh aliens to death or maybe even my old mathematics teacher who could use her vast interpersonal skills to teach them to death.

:huh?:
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#43 kafros

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 04:28 PM

We could hire people in order to carry TVs playing Star Academy/Super Star, that would melt the alien's head!!!! :D:D:D:D

#44 JakeDrake

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 04:37 PM

L o L fuxxor,

also, why are we still posting on this? go proofread a CTD if you are bored! :whip:

or better yet, learn c# :D

...
pancakes?

#45 sir_schwick

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 04:43 PM

Food for thought:

A normal rookie just knows how to handle a gun. But, he can receive martial art training! Not just  punches, but serious blows! Nice head kicks, "centralised" hits in specific parts of the body (anatomy info would be nice, as sir-sandwich commented, and I just love his idea). AAAAAAAAND!, when the soldier recieves psi attack, he can also concetrate more, so he can achieve more accurate blows! AAAAAAAAND!, he can also use his psi powers in order to confuse the enemy in short distance, so that's another way he can deal good hits by using martial arts....


I like that idea, using psi to increase melee potential. IMagine if you could blind targets than run up, steal their gun, and shoot them with it. Also, maybe troopers should be able to try and leverage weapons so the aliens cannot shoot. Your soldier does not have his rifle in ready position when he runs into a Muton around the corner. While the Muton pulls his rifle into position you grab it and him and try to leverage. With a Muton power armour required, but otherwise it would be a new way to look at reaction fire.

#46 Tsereve

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 07:07 PM

If a bullet cannot penetrate an armor, how can any melee or thrown weapon? Try to penetrate just 5mm thick iron by thrust or slash. Takes a LOT of effort. Same plate gets easily pierced by standard pistol, and bullet still has ability to damage things. Sword is heavy, cumbersome and slow to carry around, a thing you definitely want to get rid of in a firefight. How fast a "cyberninja" may be, him slashing takes more time than when i pull the trigger. And if need to be silent, a silenced submachine gun makes far less noise than bar of metal crushing bones and cutting flesh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


But aliens don't have 5mm thick iron armor--even the Mutons only have a tough skin layer (I think). Sectoids, Etherials, etc. only have an exoskeleton. Cyberdisks and Sectopods are the only ones immune to these weapons.

And a sword made from alien alloys won't be too unwieldy. A quick slash cutting off a weapon-arm would be extremely significant.
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#47 sir_schwick

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 11:29 PM

Even if there are no more melee weapons, you should be able to grab the arm of a guy(alien) as he/it goes through a doorway. This way you would not die to aliens obscene reaction fire, and being in cover would mean something at close range as well as far.

#48 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 08:23 AM

Look this image and youīll see that martial arts ar not so stupid.

Posted Image

#49 kafros

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 09:08 AM

Ok, if you don't want to have sword melee attacks, then just make "melee tricks". For example, post #47 sounds very cool!

#50 sir_schwick

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 11:03 AM

And when I say grab the arm, that does not mean pull it off like a wookie would. All you would do is grab the arms/weapon and leverage it so the guy is off balance(falls), into a wall, or at least keeps them firing initially. Expect Mutons and other soldier types to be trained in the same techniques. Also, facing an alien that has average 50+ strength with humans in melee is not smart.