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Grenades And Bombs


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#1 cchesley

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 08:00 AM

Do aliens killed via bombs (blaster and stun) and grenades count as kills or not?

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#2 Quantifier

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 08:31 AM

grenades and blaster bombs - they do.
stun bombs - they don't, because you don't kill alien with stun bombs

note that grenades have to be 'thrown' by your soldier to get a kill,
grenades dropped on the ground (dropping costs only 2TUs instead of 25%) will still be effective, but soldier doesn't get a kill, and thus advance more slowly.

#3 cchesley

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 09:38 AM

grenades and blaster bombs - they do.
stun bombs - they don't, because you don't kill alien with stun bombs

note that grenades have to be 'thrown' by your soldier to get a kill,
grenades dropped on the ground (dropping costs only 2TUs instead of 25%) will still be effective, but soldier doesn't get a kill, and thus advance more slowly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Thank you very much.

#4 cheeses-of-nazareth

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 10:25 AM

Sadly Quantifier could not be more wrong

the real answer is almost exactly the opposite

kills from nades and BBs DO NOT count as kills for the soldier firing / throwing the weapon in their soldier stats - I'm not even sure that a kill from a grenade or BB would promote a rookie to a squaddie - so no increase in stats is earned at all.


while a hit / knockout from a stun bomb will not rack up a kill in the soldiers stats, it will increase that soldiers stats in the same way as if they had scored a kill, and will improve the usual stats in the same way - i.e firing accuracy/TU's reactions ( if it was a reaction shot) etc

#5 cchesley

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 10:29 AM

Sadly Quantifier could not be more wrong

the real answer is almost exactly the opposite

kills from nades and BBs DO NOT count as kills for the soldier firing / throwing the weapon in their soldier stats - I'm not even sure that a kill from a grenade or BB would promote a rookie to a squaddie - so no increase in stats is earned at all.


while a hit / knockout from a stun bomb will not rack up a kill in the soldiers stats, it will increase that soldiers stats in the same way as if they had scored a kill, and will improve the usual stats in the same way - i.e firing accuracy/TU's reactions ( if it was a  reaction shot)  etc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That has been my experience and did not know if that was a bug or how it was designed.

How about Proximity grenades?

#6 NKF

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 10:47 PM

Aha, the one aspect of the game that's the closest to my heart! Well, recently (as in early in the year) in any case. You cannot imagine how many experiments I had to run just to figure all this out! And so, here it is!

In order to answer this question: Let me first explain how a soldier can gain experience.

A soldier can gain experience only in the following ways:

1. Scoring a "hit" - I'll elaborate a bit more on this later.
2. Scoring a melee attack
3. Using reaction fire.
4. Throwing objects.
5. Successfully using a psi attack on an enemy unit.
6. Panicking

Note: Kills do NOT count towards experience. However, each kill is synonymous with a "hit", although it will not count the actual number of hits that have been performed.

Also, carrying heavy objects and encumbering yourself will not improve your chances of getting a better strength score. The game simply does not keep track of this information.

If you want more information about what action raises what, have a look at the "How do you raise stats of your soldiers" thread that's pinned at the top of this forum. I think the list I posted is near the end of page 2.

Now, to elaborate on the "hit". I call it a "hit" as that's basically what it is, although I'm sure there's a better name for it somewhere. Anyway, a hit is counted for every time you hit an enemy target. The target must be controlled by alien AI, not civilian AI or player controlled. A 'hit' is the bread and butter of all the experience building skills.

For bullets, a hit is counted for every time a bullet successfully strikes a target.

For area effect weapons, which include high explosive effects and stun bomb effects, a hit is counted for EVERY unit caught in the area of effect. So, a stun bomb or a blaster bomb that hits 5 aliens in a cluster will net you 5 'hit' points. Of course, if the unit is behind a hard wall and escapes the explosion, they'll not receive the effect. (Note, large units only count as 1 hit even if you do hit all 4 quarters)

---

Now to explain why blaster bombs apparently don't give you too many improvements over other weapons: Easy. They are just too good. See, if you were to use a pistol and shoot at a sectoid, you'd probably kill it in 2 - 3 hits. With a blaster bomb, you'd kill it in 1 hit. If you're an absolute rookie and say you have horrible accuracy (around 40, say), you could probably get awarded the full stat bonus at the end of the mission. Usually something around 0 - 6 possible points. But if you're a veteran and had 75 accuracy, that 1 hit will not count for much at all. 2 - 3, now that might get you a small possible stat increase. Probably somewhere around 0 - 1 points. I'm just pulling that last figure out of the air, by the way, but the general idea is, the higher your stat, the more you need to do to get a bonus. Most stat bonuses hit 0 when the stat reaches its max level (only games with the 1.4 patch).

As you get 1 hit, you will get promoted from a rookie to a squaddie.

---

The reason why grenade-type weapons have to be thrown:

Every grenade has a stat that remembers who threw it last. All grenades default to unit 0, or the first unit in the soldier list. Every time you throw the grenade, it'll remember who last threw it so that the game can award the hits accordingly.

If you arm and then drop the grenade, you will not get awarded these experience points. (I forget if the first unit gets the experience)

One suggestion, and this is only a guess, is to throw the grenade at least once, early in the mission. This might just work around your problem.

Also, yes, this extends to proximity grenades as well. But you often place the mine by throwing it, so it shouldn't cause too much of a problem.

I know I'm probably a bit vauge in some areas, so ask away and I'll try to clarify myself.

- NKF

Edited by NKF, 27 October 2004 - 10:51 PM.

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#7 cheeses-of-nazareth

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 03:47 AM

I'm going off topic a bit here but just to extrapolate on the points raised by NKF and myself about raising stats, there's a clue for newer xcom players in the things we said as to how you gan max out your soldiers stats as quickly as possible.

For the very safest way to do this you will need to have a few soldiers with strong enough psi attack skill to mind control most things first time everytime, take a couple of them and a bunch of soldiers that you want to train up on a mission against some aliens - mutons are probably best for this with snakemen my second choice because both can survive plenty of hits from weak weapons. Arm the soldiers with standard xcom pistols and as much ammo as they can carry ( but keep a couple of stonger weapons in reserve just in case).

Find all of the mutons you can - cull an appropriate number so you have a manageable amount left ( I normally keep about 4-5) - then completely disarm them- including grenades - then get them to stand directly next to you pistol armed xcom units - do not shoot them yet though, while they are under your mind control any hits you make on them will not count - once all of your soldiers are in position, end your turn. During the aliens turn they can't harm you as they should all be under mind control - however this will wear off when their turn ends and your next turn begins - now you can shoot them - regardless of the fact that the pistols will probably do pretty much zero dammage to the mutons, you will still score a good chance of a stat increase with each hit ( so the more hits you do, the better chance of a really big stat increase you get - so you see why I suggest using the weakest weapons?)

I'm currently experimenting with this to increase reactions as well, however I have found that it is MUCH more difficult go get off a reaction shot if the aliens are unarmed - this probably has something to do with the fact that the chances of getting off a reaction shot seemed to be based not only on your soldiers reaction score but the % of TU's it takes for the weapon they are carring, to fire - i.e the less TU's it takes the greater chance of a Reaction shot - I reckon the solution to this is to let the aleins keep thier weapons, but remove the ammo :-)

#8 NKF

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 04:43 AM

Or just give them pistols (rifles are probably better, as they deal close to the same amount of damage, and have bigger clips) and make sure you're wearing power armour. Excellent combination there! :)

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#9 cheeses-of-nazareth

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 05:34 AM

Or just give them pistols (rifles are probably better, as they deal close to the same amount of damage, and have bigger clips) and make sure you're wearing power armour. Excellent combination there! :)

- NKF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes a great combination - although I am beginning to worry myself that your pistol fixation may be catching

#10 Snakeman

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 04:12 PM

I haven't done much experimenting lately, but last night I decided (since I can't seem to train up my good rookies that have low reactions fast enough so, thanks, I'll try that next) to work on throwing accuracy. I went to that floater base near me to take it out and brought along half vets, and half newbs.

I went about my business as usual until I got down to a half dozen floaters or so (to save for last after my throwing test to get them some firing accuracy on the way out) and made sure I had enough folks to keep them mc'd and stationed them in one of the exit rooms under guard while I did the test.

I basically had my 7 rookies spread out about 5-6 squares apart with each in line of sight of one another, with the last also in the exit room then started funneling all my captured bootie via throwing to each one in turn ending up with the guy in the exit room. Everything went ok I guess as at the end I did see that each rookie got something. At least, the 1-5 points or so thing seemed to apply. Not sure they could have gotten more had they used things like grenades in combat.

Now its time to try the reactions test, that's most of my rookies' weaknesses right there, but the only reason I kept them was that they excelled in other places to make up for it. Psi skill/defense, time units, strength, stamina, bravery and accuracy are my main criteria for keeping any.

#11 Quantifier

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 02:11 AM

yesterday i sent my commander with 71 kills in a mission with blaster launcher and lots of bombs. then blasted whole map killing 11 aliens, and after mission on the soldier stat screen the 'kills:' field was 82.
then i did similar thing except this time blasted everything with grenades. again, she scored some kills, and her throwing accuracy was higher by 1 point as well.

cchesley's question was about raising 'kills' stat, not about advancing in firing/throwing accuracy, and so was my answer.

so, tell me, where exactly do you think i am wrong?

#12 cheeses-of-nazareth

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 02:23 AM

Quantifier - that's interesting - what version of ufo are you playing ?

The last time I experimented with checking kills from nades and BBs was a while back on my playstation version of ufo - and kills from both weapons were definitely not logged as kills in the soldier stats. Since then I have been playing CE/GE on my pc and have not experimented - perhaps this aspect of the game has been (quite rightly) fixed since the old days.

#13 Quantifier

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 02:29 AM

i play patched dos version.

#14 NKF

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 06:19 AM

Nothing surprising there. The PC versions are a bit more up-to-date than the PSX version, as it's a lot easier to apply fixes and updates to them than to the PSX version. (Well, look at it this way, PSX discs are not rewriteable CD-Roms, whereas copies on the hard drive of a computer can be overwritten)

A kill is synonymous with a hit. So if the soldier scores a hit, and deals enough damage to kill the alien, the kill counter is incremented in addition to the hit counter.

The only time when the kill counter is not incremented is when it's a non-lethal attack (but the hit counter will still be incremented) or if the game cannot attribute the attack to the attacker (which is most probably the case!). In the case of dropping an armed grenade before the game assigns an 'owner' to the grenade.

Perhaps the playstation version may have a fault with assigning explosive attacks to the owner.

Here's a thought: Do rockets and HE shells increment kills in the PSX version? They have a different method of delivery, true, but the effect at the end is the same. Will a complete rookie get promoted to a squaddie after performing his or her first-ever attack with a blaster and doing nothing else throughout the mission (that includes panicking, by the way)? I don't have a Playstation, so the testing of this will have to fall into the hands of those who do.

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Edited by NKF, 29 October 2004 - 06:25 AM.

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#15 Snakeman

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 07:53 AM

Hmm, this was interesting. I went to do another base assault to try out the reactions thing. It seems I'd not been doing it as well as I could have. Before I had been just lining up my rookies next to the targets, but the enemy would be unarmed. Only one to three guys tops might actually get a shot off, the ones with reactions somewhere above 50 this way.

When I armed the enemy with unarmed rifles, wasn't too much of a change. Only one guy I had with reactions already at around 60 got all the initiative among the rooks, and the others didn't fire.

Arming the enemy now with loaded pistols, then switching the rooks out with their backup laser pistol, I got better results. Just about every rookie fired a shot, even the ones with the lowest reactions (30-40) though not all killed anything. So it appears that unless you leave some fighting chance left for the alien AI, you won't get as good results raising reactions this way (was playing CE by the way). It probably helped the rookies out too since each one would have been tagged at least once when aliens auto fired. Perhaps that was a trigger too, they need to be hit before they can react (at least, possibly the lowest reaction ones)..

#16 NKF

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 03:42 PM

There are times where your soldiers will react against an unarmed alien. That's when an unarmed alien walks into the line of sight of the waiting soldier. Like having them start a few paces behind a door and letting them walk through the door into an ambush, or simply have them walk around a corner. That often triggers a reaction from my soldiers if their reaction score beats the alien's reaction score.

The only problem with this is when the alien just decides that it won't move.

Just a quick word on how reaction works for those who don't know: One of the most basic ways the game determines when to let a unit get an opportunity attack is by directly comparing the reaction stats of the two units. Another condition is that the attacker must see the target (but that's obvious, right?). When comparing the two reaction stats, they are adjusted by the percentage of the unit's remaining TUs (you get that by dividing current TUs with max TUs). Say you've got 50 reactions and 70% of your remaining TUs, you'd get 50 * 0.7 = 35, and the target has 70 reactions and 30% of its remaining TUs (enough for a snapshot with any plasma weapon). We get 70 * 0.30 = 21. As you have the higher score, you'd get to shoot first. Which is why if you want to get a good reaction, even with a low reaction score, it's often best to leave your TUs at 100% and use a fast snap-shot weapon, like a laser rifle or laser pistol.

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#17 Zombie

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 02:49 AM

Hi everyone! Concerning your questions about high explosives (Blaster Bombs and grenades) and if they generate a kill for a rookie:

Here's a thought: Do rockets and HE shells increment kills in the PSX version? They have a different method of delivery, true, but the effect at the end is the same. Will a complete rookie get promoted to a squaddie after performing his or her first-ever attack with a blaster and doing nothing else throughout the mission (that includes panicking, by the way)? I don't have a Playstation, so the testing of this will have to fall into the hands of those who do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So what I did was hire a brand-spanking new rookie, then send him (along with 15 of his closest MC-capable friends) to a Muton base. (I made sure to jot down his stats for future reference). Then I mind controlled the entire compliment of Mutons and corralled them in an upper food room. Now, let the fun begin! :)
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Test 1: Gave the rookie a Blaster Launcher and 1 Blaster Bomb. He fired at the group of aliens killing 12. After getting him back to the green room, I aborted the mission. When I got back to the Geoscape screen, I checked Kenji Matsumara's stats.
Result 1: Overall, his stats increased an average of 2 points (except for bravery, reactions and throwing accuracy for obvious reasons). Now for the good stuff. He indeed had 1 mission and 12 kills, and got promoted to Squaddie.
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Test 2: Gave the guy an alien grenade, and had him throw it between the Mutons. After it exploded, I counted two dead aliens. Now I got him back to the green room and aborted. Yada, yada, yada.
Result 2: Again, his stats went up an average of 2 points, except this time, his Firing accuracy increased by 3 points, even though he didn't fire a gun once. Sure enough, Kenji had one mission under his belt and two kills. He also got promoted to Squaddie.
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Test 3: Gave Kenji a Small Launcher and let him fire a round at the Mutons. Three aliens were stunned. Now I get him back to the green room... Yada, yada, yada.
Result 3: Here again, his stats went up by two except for bravery, reactions and throwing accuracy. He had his 1 mission, but no kills (obviously). He also got promoted to Squaddie.

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If you successfully engage an alien in combat, either by stunning, shooting or throwing, that rookie will get promoted if he survives the mission and returns back to base. It's that simple. Say that rookie primes a grenade and relays it to a buddy to throw. Will he get promoted? Nope. You must directly attack an alien for the promotion and stat increase. Hope this clears things up! :P
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