Balance - Human Vs Alien

[Joul]

Hi guys !

 

The last few days when i played ufo2k i noticed that the balance between human teams and alien teams is very , well , unbalanced.

It is nearly impossibile for a player who has just human guys on his team to win against an alien opponent if he chooses the right tactic.

The main problem is , that alien players have the oportunity to have flying units at almost no costs. Or if they want, also flying units with high costs/armour.

While the alien player is able to put hordes of snipers and rocket launchers in the air and on the roofs, the human player is forced to hide ( if possible ) because otherwise his guys on the ground will be history.

I dont know if anyone of you has experienced the same problem, but it is certainly not beacause of me playing so bad

Since i think it has no style to mix aliens and humans together i think there should be some balance tweaks between the main races ( alien / human )

I think there should be cheaper flying units for humans too ( like with jetpack/no armour ) or standart armour with jetpack. Otherwise the flying units in the alien teams should be more expensive.

Another opportunity would be to limit the number of flying units per team to 4 or something like that.

I already talked to some people ingame and they have agreed that it is impossible for a player who just has human guys to win against an alien team. ( of course if the alien player knows how )

I think that should be changed.

 

Now give it to me

[Sporb]

should be fixed soon enough - the devs are curently working on a few possible solutions. I think its mainly the floater units that tip the ballance since they can scout and hide far far easier. The fact that an alien player can have more units due to low cost is a matter of choice though since lower cost units suffer huge losses in armour.

[Joul]

Yeah its a matter of choice for the alien player weather to have flying units at no costs ( with no armour ) or to have flying units at higher costs ( with good armour )

Thats a matter of choice the human player doesnt have

And who needs the armour when i got 6 flying snipers and 4 flying heavy missiles and a few flying scouts for 15k ?:

The human opponent

[Sporb]

i meant the earth bound aliens - i agreed with you that flyers were too good for too cheap. Edited May 18, 2006 by Sporb

[Exo2000]

Floaters have buggerall armour though, unlike Flying Suits.

 

:wink1:

[Joul]

i meant the earth bound aliens - i agreed with you that flyers were too good for too cheap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh ok. Then i missunderstood you. Sorry sporb.

Im from Austria and because of that, i sometimes mix some words up in english

[Sporb]

Floaters have buggerall armour though, unlike Flying Suits.

 

:wink1:

 

but unlike ground units they can scout far far far better than a ground bound unit. The can also hide in 100% of the map since they can float. They can snipe far better (even from a float point) than a ground unit since they can get up high. They are far harder to hit when flying and although they lose some accuracy, they still gain a rather large advantage from it. They can be used to reveal enemies during reaction fire and then quietly move into a spot away from enemy eyes. A floater with an Heavycannon /autocannon /rocket launcherdoesnt need to aim, asfiring an explosive shot downwards is almost gurenteed to cause damage whereas an explosive bullet fired from ground level upward of across the battlefeild has far far less chance of making a hit.

 

Power Armour and to some extent etherials are well ballanced since they cost a large amount and restrict usage greatly. But the floater is cheap and has a similar amount of armour to a shirt. Thus you can have the floaters AND the hardware whereas you can have the flying suits and the hardware becdause cost simply doesnt allow it.

 

EDIT@ Joul: No problems, just so were on the same page

Edited May 18, 2006 by Sporb

[Raging_Hog]

I think of myself as quite seasoned veteran of the original Xcom but recently when my Ufo2K online-virginity was lost my behind was handed to me very exclusively. I had 9 power armored dudes against 15 aliens(I think). I only saw 2-3 enemies, the playground(normal city map, doesn't really matter because it was quite levelled right in the start by explosions) was filled with smoke from turn 1 due to opponent blowing up things. Then a floater popped up, my dude reaction fired and missed, few rockets came from somewhere(above somewhere) ending here and there and this resulted in very dead dudes. I tried shooting explos blindly in the smoke(as he did), but to no effect(his guys seemed to be safe in the air).

 

Rinse and repeat, in the end I got one alien dead.

 

That kind of suppressed my initial excitedness about this project.

 

The ground explosions didn't seem to affect the flyers(which I tested in hotseat, they really don't affect flyers much, especially those two levels higher) and I think that the guy hovering just above the explosion should suffer pretty much the same as the guy standing next to it(or is it deliberate because of original Xcom had that kind of style?).

 

Methinks smoke-fly-blast isn't a tactic that sould be winning all the time and one should be able to win with ground-only dudes.

[Oldtype]

Well how about restricting alien players only to alien weapons, that means no explosions exept for alien Grenades since Blaster can not be picked. And since those weapons come with a price tag...

Another option would be to make explosions go up too, so fliers are not imune to them anymore.

[Raging_Hog]

Well how about restricting alien players only to alien weapons, that means no explosions exept for alien Grenades since Blaster can not be picked. And since those weapons come with a price tag...

Another option would be to make explosions go up too, so fliers are not imune to them anymore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not too sure about the restriction... It should at least be made configurable so it isn't in every game. It might take away some fun like arming a group of sectoids with pistols.

 

As I stated in the previous post, explosions should hurt flyers all the way, actually even more because when hovering hurt comes from below to under armor and when next to the explosion it should hit front/sides/back armor. But I think I saw discussion elsewhere about the damage from explosions and that it is hitting everyone from under right now due to technical reasons.

[Sporb]

its all because floaters make super good scouts. A sectoid ground scout can be kiled in an explosion, a floater cant. A sectoid cant see thru fog, a floater can if he is directly above the unit (this is a bug). A floater with explosives just has to aim down and all his bullets should explode, a ground unit doesnt have that sort of hit to miss ratio.

 

The whole problem stems mostly from the pricing of the floaters but the advantages the flyers have over ground bound units is also a big factor

Edited May 19, 2006 by Sporb

[Hobbes]

A sectoid cant see thru fog, a floater can if he is directly above the unit (this is a bug).

 

I still haven't figured out what this bug is. See the pics included and both the sectoid and the floater can't see one another (this happens even without smoke).

 

 

I think of myself as quite seasoned veteran of the original Xcom but recently when my Ufo2K online-virginity was lost my behind was handed to me very exclusively. (...) That kind of suppressed my initial excitedness about this project.

 

UFO2000 is not the original X-Com. The basic tactic to win on the original X-COM is to slowly move your units, fire at any seen aliens and leave your units with TUs for reaction fire.

The problem with using that tactic here is that they are meant to use against the game's AI (which is programmed to use the exact same tactic). The AI does not move the aliens in a coordinated manner, instead each unit moves and fires individually, without taking into account the locations of your units.

Fighting against a human opponent completely changes this. It is unreal to expect that the other player will act in the limited way of the game's AI. UFO2000 requires for you to learn a whole different strategy, where reaction tactics play a very minor part.

And there's an unfinished strategy guide available here.

 

 

There is already a discussion going on concerning flying units on Bugtracker. The consensus seems to be that the cost of flying units should be increased and their accuracy reduced. Another idea is to add an option button to set games without flying units.

[Voller]

I still haven't figured out what this bug is. See the pics included and both the sectoid and the floater can't see one another (this happens even without smoke).

 

Hmm, isn't there supposed to be a blind spot underneath flying units or something? Plus, if one is exactly on top of the other, it won't see what's underneath because it is not technically in front of the unit. If you were to put them on the same plane, they'd be inside each other and I'm not sure if that is covered by the field of vision.

 

Also on the pic they're looking away from each other aren't they?

 

Voller

[Hobbes]

Hmm, isn't there supposed to be a blind spot underneath flying units or something? Plus, if one is exactly on top of the other, it won't see what's underneath because it is not technically in front of the unit. If you were to put them on the same plane, they'd be inside each other and I'm not sure if that is covered by the field of vision.

 

That's what I would expect as well but Sporb has been saying that there's a bug somewhere.

 

Also on the pic they're looking away from each other aren't they?

 

That's because I had made both units turn around themselves several times to see if I could spot any error. Their facing positions on the pics is where they eventually ended.

[Raging_Hog]

UFO2000 is not the original X-Com. The basic tactic to win on the original X-COM is to slowly move your units, fire at any seen aliens and leave your units with TUs for reaction fire.

The problem with using that tactic here is that they are meant to use against the game's AI (which is programmed to use the exact same tactic). The AI does not move the aliens in a coordinated manner, instead each unit moves and fires individually, without taking into account the locations of your units.

Fighting against a human opponent completely changes this. It is unreal to expect that the other player will act in the limited way of the game's AI. UFO2000 requires for you to learn a whole different strategy, where reaction tactics play a very minor part. 

 

Sorry if it sounded like that but I was trying to make a point about the flying units and not to cry about my loss, naturally I don't think I could go to the U2K server and be the mastah right away just because I used to play the old XCOM and other turn-based team games . Every game's different and I'm a humble noob in U2K despite the fact I've played these kind of games before even against humans.

 

The thing bumming me down was the thought that the winning game is all flying and bombing but since there's work going on to uncheese the floaters so everythings fine(some day).

 

Thanks for pointing to the helps, and I agree that the old XCOM AI wasn't that great. I noticed that there has been a lot of planning for AI, hopefully it will be implemented.

[Hobbes]

The thing bumming me down was the thought that the winning game is all flying and bombing but since there's work going on to uncheese the floaters so everythings fine(some day).

Thanks for pointing to the helps, and I agree that the old XCOM AI wasn't that great. I noticed that there has been a lot of planning for AI, hopefully it will be implemented.

 

Yeah, it bums a lot of people here, with the exception of the players who have mastered that tactic. The same can be said about the 'scout and snipe' tactic, which is pretty much the standard tactic on open maps, but at least on terrains like City the buildings reduce the efficiency of 'scout and snipe', which does not happen with the flying bombardiers (almost no ground location is secure).

The other thing that needs fixing is the explosives and the fact that HE damage on the betas applies only to the under armor. That and the fact that there's no fly units is one of the reasons why I still like a lot to play the stable even if most of the advanced features aren't available.

 

God knows when there will be an AI implemented. To tell you the truth I am not really waiting for it, because playing against a human player is a lot more fun and unpredictable.

[Sporb]

ill see if i can get the bug to happen over teh weekend, if i cant ill shut up about it