Revitalizing Firearms

[fux0r666]

My use alien alloys in the bullets at all? Blended metal bullets tend to catastrophically disintegrate when they hit a target. I read an article where some malcontent was shot in the posterior with a 5.56 blended metal round and die within minutes because it destroyed his lower torso.

 

Fusion rounds.. uhm.. why? You planning on destroying the neighbourhood? Cannon launched tactical nukes produce thousand foot mushroom clouds, and those are only atom bombs. Then again, you need an atom bomb to set off a hydrogen bomb.. so the sell would be difficult considering what you need to fuse hydrogen.

 

I think elerium has done enough already. Heh. I think using elerium's gravitic properties in an energy efficient railgun (and without the huge arcs and extremely loud noise that railguns make) would be more idealistic/realistic.

[x0563511]

How about something more related to a tranquilizer?

 

Use a needle made of alien alloys and using alien construcion to make it super-sharp.

 

use xenium(i think thats it?) research to develop a xenium-derived-serum that, upon injection into a happles alien's system, wreaks havoc with its chemistry, with ranging effects (depending on random chance AND the alien's race) from a stomach ache and sterility to spontanious combustion. How would you feel if someone injected a high-energy, corrosive, and radioactive catalyst into YOUR body? The effect wouldn't be immediate, but in some cases it would be pretty quick.

 

 

Why bother ripping the aliens apart when you can use chemistry to make it rip itself apart?

 

Of course, this would be useless against mechanical foes... but then you use something like this:

 

Xenium powered projectile (kinda like a stickybomb) that attaches to the target and then procedes to fry its systems and scramble it with EM radiation...

 

 

I know, not related to ballistics much, but my point was you dont necessarily NEED ballistics to do damage. In my opinion, relying soley on ballistics is more brutish, lacking finess.

 

EDIT: Of course, this would require knowlege about your target... (at least one alien autopsy, for instance).

 

EDIT(again): Another serum idea: a serum that makes a target more suceptable to psi-attacks?

Edited August 8, 2004 by x0563511

[fux0r666]

use xenium(i think thats it?) research to develop a xenium-derived-serum that, upon injection into a happles alien's system, wreaks havoc with its chemistry, with ranging effects (depending on random chance AND the alien's race) from a stomach ache and sterility to spontanious combustion. How would you feel if someone injected a high-energy, corrosive, and radioactive catalyst into YOUR body? The effect wouldn't be immediate, but in some cases it would be pretty quick.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! No xenium based sandwich meat, no xenium bathroom cleaner, no xenium based julianed french-fry maker, no xenium poison. You don't need plutonium to poison someone. All you need is poison.

[T-1]

use xenium(i think thats it?) research to develop a xenium-derived-serum that, upon injection into a happles alien's system, wreaks havoc with its chemistry, with ranging effects (depending on random chance AND the alien's race) from a stomach ache and sterility to spontanious combustion. How would you feel if someone injected a high-energy, corrosive, and radioactive catalyst into YOUR body? The effect wouldn't be immediate, but in some cases it would be pretty quick.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! No xenium based sandwich meat, no xenium bathroom cleaner, no xenium based julianed french-fry maker, no xenium poison. You don't need plutonium to poison someone. All you need is poison.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Xenium is a power source... That's why it gets used for a lot of things. Now I don't really understand the whole thing about it being used in posion. BTW, I thought the blaster launcher already used fusion (sorry, I was 9 years old the last time I played XCOM1)? I'll go and check on an online ufopaedia.

 

EDIT: The entry doesn't say.

 

All right, then heres some other ideas for bullet types:

 

Liquid nitrogen: I'm not familiar with what is required to transport this, and this probobly not possible with these technologies, but you could put a bunch of compressed liquid nitrogen in the bullet. It would probobly make the bullet just break into pieces upon firing and cause the plasma to vaporise/plasmaise (is that the term?) the nitrogen. But then again the whole reason aliens use alien alloy is because it are resistant to the heat of plasma. So maybe its also resistant to the coldness of liquid nitrogen. So you burn them with the anti-friction plasma first, the bullet impacts and hopefully breaks, causing the compressed nitrogen to explode out of the bullet, freezing some internal organs and whatever else is nearby.

 

Hollow point bullets?

 

My use alien alloys in the bullets at all? Blended metal bullets tend to catastrophically disintegrate when they hit a target. I read an article where some malcontent was shot in the posterior with a 5.56 blended metal round and die within minutes because it destroyed his lower torso.

 

The blended metal one would melt from the plasma.

Edited August 8, 2004 by T-1

[centurion]

[...]

Liquid nitrogen: I'm not familiar with what is required to transport this, and this probobly not possible with these technologies, but you could put a bunch of compressed liquid nitrogen in the bullet.[...] So you burn them with the anti-friction plasma first, the bullet impacts and hopefully breaks, causing the compressed nitrogen to explode out of the bullet, freezing some internal organs and whatever else is nearby. [...]

Well, why COMPRESS liquid nitrogen? You won't be able to put reasonably more stuff in a bullet, since liquids are famous for not being terribly compressible. For this reason, even if the whole thing worked, the liquid would not "explode" out of the bullet, just spray the wound a bit (and freezing it just makes the opponent less prone to shock).

Anti-friction plasma would be used to speed up the bullet to some ridiculous speed, for which a ) there's no need to have seriously heated plasma, better not use too much energy for preparation of a shot, b ) there's no way the bullet would have some intricate inner structure that would not disintegrate at the moment of firing.

[T-1]

[...]

Liquid nitrogen: I'm not familiar with what is required to transport this, and this probobly not possible with these technologies, but you could put a bunch of compressed liquid nitrogen in the bullet.[...] So you burn them with the anti-friction plasma first, the bullet impacts and hopefully breaks, causing the compressed nitrogen to explode out of the bullet, freezing some internal organs and whatever else is nearby. [...]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, why COMPRESS liquid nitrogen? You won't be able to put reasonably more stuff in a bullet, since liquids are famous for not being terribly compressible. For this reason, even if the whole thing worked, the liquid would not "explode" out of the bullet, just spray the wound a bit (and freezing it just makes the opponent less prone to shock).

Anti-friction plasma would be used to speed up the bullet to some ridiculous speed, for which a ) there's no need to have seriously heated plasma, better not use too much energy for preparation of a shot, b ) there's no way the bullet would have some intricate inner structure that would not disintegrate at the moment of firing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Compress because that cause it to spray (thats really just a weaker explosion.)? Not have seriously heated plasma? Is that even possible? Why would it disintegrate? Could you elaborate?

[Tuoppi]

With my piercer-gun there is really no need to make specialized bullets, even if it were possible. A gram weighting bullet hasn't got much room for internal systems... And it is quite useless to freeze/poison/explode/radiate a dead crushed jellified corpse anyway eh? And no structure other than solid piece of A-Alloys could handle the acceleration when the bullet is sent to fly. The bullet doesn't need to get disintegrated, that was the whole idea of gun! The shockwave transfers the energy!

 

In HC or other weapons more advanced bullets based on alientech would be nice to have around, they would surely add to weapon lifespan. Maybe HC-ammo with instant-harden policefoam. You know, the stuff that cements the bad guy into wall. Would take a while to get free and/or able to shoot otherways than forward.

 

You could also make it do a tad bit of plasma damage to burn through any armor then do the real damage straight to the target

Just barely ionized air hasn't got enough energy to hurt anything really, we are talking about a millisec of time and a mm of diameter of plasma cavern. Still i wouldn't worry too much about armor, we have 10 000 joules in a square mm area. It ought to penetrate some...

 

The blended metal one would melt from the plasma.

Bullet flying in ionized air is way cooler than one flying in normal gaseous air due to less friction heating. Thing they tested this was normal human fighterjet, and it handled the plasma with no prob. Only problem was that energy needed to have enough plasma to cover an aircraft was more than that to just push against friction.

 

Chemical warfare would be nice to have around... If not specialized alien gas(from apoc), a basic mustard gas grenade(JA2) would surely make them cough... And maybe a modified super soaker or paintball gun to spray anti-alien toxins around? Not an instant kill maybe, but handy when fearing MC or needing area effect other than HE.

 

Lastly, please, keep the elerium as energy source... It should not be a magic-medicine for all troubles.

[centurion]

Compress because that cause it to spray (thats really just a weaker explosion.)? Not have seriously heated plasma? Is that even possible? Why would it disintegrate? Could you elaborate?

You can have pressures high in the sky, but a liquid will not spray more than it would from the impact (= at pressure at which the bullet breaks up).

Why have hot plasma (and delicate/expensive equipment to produce it) if you don't want a pure energy weapon? If you are producing enough plasma to actually burn an opponent, why add the gun?

As to disintegration: to have a muzzle velocity of, say, 2 km/s, a rifle with a 2 m long barrel (pretty unwieldy already) has to produce at least 200 000 g acceleration (assuming uniform acceleration, otherwise you have peak values much higher). Show me anything complex that remains in working state after suffering this kind of acceleration.

[T-1]

Compress because that cause it to spray (thats really just a weaker explosion.)? Not have seriously heated plasma? Is that even possible? Why would it disintegrate? Could you elaborate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can have pressures high in the sky, but a liquid will not spray more than it would from the impact (= at pressure at which the bullet breaks up).

Why have hot plasma (and delicate/expensive equipment to produce it) if you don't want a pure energy weapon? If you are producing enough plasma to actually burn an opponent, why add the gun?

As to disintegration: to have a muzzle velocity of, say, 2 km/s, a rifle with a 2 m long barrel (pretty unwieldy already) has to produce at least 200 000 g acceleration (assuming uniform acceleration, otherwise you have peak values much higher). Show me anything complex that remains in working state after suffering this kind of acceleration.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, you're right, I just wasn't very awake at that time in the morning.

It'd be a nice gun.

[x0563511]

use xenium(i think thats it?) research to develop a xenium-derived-serum that, upon injection into a happles alien's system, wreaks havoc with its chemistry, with ranging effects (depending on random chance AND the alien's race) from a stomach ache and sterility to spontanious combustion. How would you feel if someone injected a high-energy, corrosive, and radioactive catalyst into YOUR body? The effect wouldn't be immediate, but in some cases it would be pretty quick.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! No xenium based sandwich meat, no xenium bathroom cleaner, no xenium based julianed french-fry maker, no xenium poison. You don't need plutonium to poison someone. All you need is poison.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You dont understand. Xenium-derived.

 

Use isotopes derived from xenium related reactions would give you some pretty unstable and ugly results, perfect for weapons. Uranium is a power source. So is plutonium. We can use plenty of goodies from those but the Geneva convention prohibits us from doing so. There is no geneva convention for aliens.

 

I understand what you mean by no sandwich meat and all that, but that is NOT realistic at all! Xenium-derived bio/chemical weapons ARE practical and possible.

 

And you mised my point. You dont need the ballistics themselves to do damage.

 

EDIT: and just because you inject anthrax into an alien doesnt mean anything. We would need something more exotic (like xenium) as a starting point to figure out how to screw up a more exotic system like the aliens. They are not people. They (with their more developed and hardened systems) could probably shrug off our most powerful toxins with a tummy ache.

Edited August 8, 2004 by x0563511

[centurion]

You dont understand. Xenium-derived.

 

Use isotopes derived from xenium related reactions would give you some pretty unstable and ugly results, perfect for weapons. Uranium is a power source. So is plutonium. We can use plenty of goodies from those but the Geneva convention prohibits us from doing so. There is no geneva convention for aliens.

 

I understand what you mean by no sandwich meat and all that, but that is NOT realistic at all! Xenium-derived bio/chemical weapons ARE practical and possible.

 

And you mised my point. You dont need the ballistics themselves to do damage.

 

EDIT: and just because you inject anthrax into an alien doesnt mean anything. We would need something more exotic (like xenium) as a starting point to figure out how to screw up a more exotic system like the aliens. They are not people. They (with their more developed and hardened systems) could probably shrug off our most powerful toxins with a tummy ache.

The point was: xenium is already over-used. Using, say, sulfuric acid is believable enough; radioactive stuff you describe is useless for killing aliens on the spot (it would take long enough for them to have a last meal, let alone shoot to pieces your whole squad), and adds yet another wondrous property for xenium, decreasing the story's credibility.

[T-1]

Yes, forget the xenium poison.

[GDD]

erm EMP? rail guns? poss ?

[T-1]

Could you speak understandably?

[x0563511]

You dont have to SAY it came from xenium... just add xenium to the research prerequisites and a little bit for manufacturing. The idea is where not using xenium itself, where using xenium's byproducts to produce new elements to cause problems with.

 

You all know how you get byproducts from radioactive fuel and what goes on during a reaction, right? I may be assuming something i shouldn't.

 

 

EDIT: This 18-year-old intellectual knows things he shouldn't for his age. I know the principals behind a tritium-boosted hydrogen bomb, using a uranium atomic bomb as a primer....

Edited August 8, 2004 by x0563511

[T-1]

Who knows what xenium antimatter reactions produce?

 

EDIT: Hey, join the club, I'm 14...

Edited August 8, 2004 by T-1

[x0563511]

We should. They use it in engines, we use it for power. Just using it for that produces byproducts, something ive wondered what they did with since XCOM1

 

EDIT: hehe T-1 and i keep running into each other...

Edited August 8, 2004 by x0563511

[T-1]

Might be something harmless like air or something.

[x0563511]

Might be something harmless like air or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I doubt that. When using it as power, we are only using the energy released as heat/photons... the molecules split arnt used...

 

elerium is not found naturally on earth and is not reproducable. That means the base elements it is composed of are not found on earth.... let alone the other compounds...

 

They ignored or forgot that introducing elerium meant that our periodic table just doubled....

[T-1]

It's not a nuclear reaction, but an antimatter one though.

[x0563511]

Then the number of doors that open are increased.

 

Not only do we gain the knowlege of the new elements, but we also gain the ability to study and understand antimatter and its reactions (something that exists in theory but is undetectable at the moment)

[T-1]

Then the number of doors that open are increased.

 

Not only do we gain the knowlege of the new elements, but we also gain the ability to study and understand antimatter and its reactions (something that exists in theory but is undetectable at the moment)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

http://www.xcomufo.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1857&st=0

 

Take a look at that. When antimatter reacts like that, both antimatter and matter explode, completly transformed into energy, leaving no waste.

[x0563511]

That we know of... we cant see or detect antimatter. it's all theory.

 

... the point is moot, however, because the scientists would be able to research into antimatter and such

 

 

But were getting off topic...

 

I give up, but noone forget my toxin idea please! your right, it doesnt have to be related to xenium, but that's an aesthetic detail only...

[T-1]

That we know of... we cant see or detect antimatter. it's all theory.

 

... the point is moot, however, because the scientists would be able to research into antimatter and such

 

 

But were getting off topic...

 

I give up, but noone forget my toxin idea please! your right, it doesnt have to be related to xenium, but that's an aesthetic detail only...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry to be so insistant, but xenium gets cheesy after a while.

 

EDIT: and it says in that thread that they have discovered antimatter.

Edited August 8, 2004 by T-1

[x0563511]

Discovered it, yes, but figure anything usefull about it yet? We cant store it long enough to do anything with it either then say "Yep, its there."

[T-1]

Discovered it, yes, but figure anything usefull about it yet? We cant store it long enough to do anything with it either then say "Yep, its there."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, that wasn't quite my understanding, I guess I'll have to reread it while paying more attention.

[x0563511]

Discovered it, yes, but figure anything usefull about it yet? We cant store it long enough to do anything with it either then say "Yep, its there."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, that wasn't quite my understanding, I guess I'll have to reread it while paying more attention.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmm... me too. it be funny if BOTH of use where missing it...

[GDD]

I agree your off topic,

 

just out of curiousty why isn't there a rifle with a rpg or a shotgun attach?

 

[fux0r666]

My radionuclide safety manual includes mention of antimatter particles being emitted by radioactive materials. It's fair to say that the existence of antimatter particles is based on good authority, and if it is not known for certain it is assumed. My guess would be that they are detected when they eliminate their diametric opposite particle- the same way that the existence of planets in other solarsystems is ASSUMED.

 

Back on topic.. why would blended metal bullets be melted by plasma? What is shooting the plasma and why is it melting bullets?

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Not exactly. Last I looked, we were going with "Xenium=Cold Fusion with some anomalous power boost."

 

Hmm...I always thought Elerium was it's own element (element 115.) Certainly not a compound (Like Uranium + Unnlpentium or something.)

 

 

 

Oh, and I'm sixteen here.

 

Edit: That certainly wasn't to you, Fux. You people post fast!

Edited August 9, 2004 by Cpl. Facehugger

[The Master Maniac]

I agree your off topic,

 

just out of curiousty why isn't there a rifle with a rpg or a shotgun attach?

 

 

Using FN firearms would be sweet. Screw time-frame relevancy.

 

Hey, guys--what about a Xenium-fueled toaster? That would be cool.

 

But seriously, I know you want to have a certain level of aesthetic coolness in the game, but what does it really matter? Conventional weapons eventually get replaced by much better, more effecient alien weapons in relatively short order anyway.

 

I guess it's a matter of timing. Why X-Com could start flying combat UFOs around over the timeframe of about 3 months or so always puzzled me.

 

I'd feel left out if I didn't succumb to the new fad, by the way. 18, here--that's right, isn't it wonderful? (cough)

Edited August 9, 2004 by The Master Maniac

[RustedSoul]

it's not really about "coolness", it's more about exploring the possibilities of added gameplay and depth in future versions. i'm sure if some kind of element resembling xenium was discovered, you'd have every mind on the planet trying to strap that mofo to something, rather than just accepting the presence on an outside influence being the end all.

 

EG. sticks -> matches -> lighter -> molotov cocktails -> flamethrower -> napalm -> Rustedsouls cooking -> plasma rifle -> (you need to steal from another race before you can research this item)

 

but still, to each his own aye .

[fux0r666]

There's aren't plutonium matches... plutonium has the magical properties of being highly toxic, lethally radioactive and fissionable...

 

Just because something has unusual properties doesn't mean it has ALL properties.

[Tuoppi]

Back on topic.. why would blended metal bullets be melted by plasma? What is shooting the plasma and why is it melting bullets?

The idea is to create a channel of ionized air for bullet to travel through. Using microwaves the air is heated enough it becomes plasma. And for the melting part... it doesn't melt bullets. NASA tested this stuff with interceptors and the aircraft surface took it easily, bullets would be stronger i think. The problem in using normal bullets was the huge acceleration when fired.

 

BTW, mankind has thousands of specialized materials for all kinds of tasks. Maybe there should a few types of A-Alloys as well? Kind of funny that same stuff was used for making UFO walls, navigational computers and HP internal systems.

[fux0r666]

Well, one could draw parallels to steel or more recently, composite materials. I don't think that the alien technology is composed only of alien alloys- I think it's that they cannot be constructed without them.

 

With the plasma aviation technology, I think the body that is moving needs to emit the plasma. Plasma doesn't actually project.. it's ionized gas. It doesn't really need to be hot, but ions are by definition, chemically reactive and corrosive. When they react they form molecular bonds and form another kind of material. They'll do this with just about anything they come into contact with, dissipating very quickly.

 

One way to make sure that the ions stay ions without forming ionic bonds with other atoms is to make them very hot. I only really have partial knowledge of how this works, but extreme excited atoms have outer electron orbitals (which is the actual word for it) that are so big/energetic that the electrons break away from the electronmagnetic forces that normally hold them in place. Thus, ions are formed... but it is not the only place that they are formed. Anything desolved in water is ionized. Plasma is the most common state of matter. It comprizes 99% of the known, visible universe.

 

After all this, my point is that plasma is very common but very difficult to make do anything weapon-like. If you have the technology to make a plasma cannon, it's probably superior to frictionless bullets anyways.

Edited August 10, 2004 by fux0r666

[centurion]

Maybe a laser beam with frequency tuned to get a single electron off nitrogen molecules would work? That would produce the needed "tunnel" for the bullet, and won't need a plasma cannon to work :happybanana:

[RustedSoul]

There's aren't plutonium matches...  plutonium has the magical properties of being highly toxic, lethally radioactive and fissionable...

 

Just because something has unusual properties doesn't mean it has ALL properties.

 

but still, you just thought about strapping plutonium to a stick and then argued for reasons against it, i believe that is the purpose of the labs is it not

[Tuoppi]

That is the idea to put it simply, centurion. Laser ionizes air when intensity is large enough(nothing too huge though) and choosing a certain wavelength helps too (one in microwave range seems most effective). Relatively low-energy microwave laser (Will not hurt anything except like a small burn in exposed skin) ionizes the air that already is there.

With the plasma aviation technology, I think the body that is moving needs to emit the plasma. Plasma doesn't actually project..

The still air is ionized by lightspeed ray from gun for the time of bullet travel. If you think that 1 gram bullet can be equipped with microwave emitter and power source that can take the acceleration, please tell me how. Corrosion will not be a problem as hardened bullet flies less than 0,1sec and aircraft aluminium can take direct exposure to plasma for at least several hours.

If you have the technology to make a plasma cannon, it's probably superior to frictionless bullets anyways.

There is a plasmacannon with 100gram projectile with barely few hundred m/s muzzle velocity. Devastates the thing it hits, but is slow and hardly pierces window glass. Then there is the piercergun with 1 gram projectile, 5km/s muzzle velocity. Pierces virtually anything, no need to lead target and well enough power to jellify/crush any living thing it hits. I know which i would choose.

[fux0r666]

There's aren't plutonium matches...  plutonium has the magical properties of being highly toxic, lethally radioactive and fissionable...

 

Just because something has unusual properties doesn't mean it has ALL properties.

 

but still, you just thought about strapping plutonium to a stick and then argued for reasons against it, i believe that is the purpose of the labs is it not

 

It sure is. I'm not quite sure what you are saying... but yes.

 

It's to pound out ideas and identify which ones are the really good ones and which ones aren't so good. My humble opinion on the matter is that we should identify a very limited set of properties that xenium exhibits and stick to those. Having xenium do everything is cheesy, in my opinion.

 

Posted Today, 09:55 AM

  That is the idea to put it simply, centurion. Laser ionizes air when intensity is large enough(nothing too huge though) and choosing a certain wavelength helps too (one in microwave range seems most effective). Relatively low-energy microwave laser (Will not hurt anything except like a small burn in exposed skin) ionizes the air that already is there.

 

With the plasma aviation technology, I think the body that is moving needs to emit the plasma. Plasma doesn't actually project..

 

The still air is ionized by lightspeed ray from gun for the time of bullet travel. If you think that 1 gram bullet can be equipped with microwave emitter and power source that can take the acceleration, please tell me how. Corrosion will not be a problem as hardened bullet flies less than 0,1sec and aircraft aluminium can take direct exposure to plasma for at least several hours.

 

If you have the technology to make a plasma cannon, it's probably superior to frictionless bullets anyways.

 

There is a plasmacannon with 100gram projectile with barely few hundred m/s muzzle velocity. Devastates the thing it hits, but is slow and hardly pierces window glass. Then there is the piercergun with 1 gram projectile, 5km/s muzzle velocity. Pierces virtually anything, no need to lead target and well enough power to jellify/crush any living thing it hits. I know which i would choose.

 

The point was that I don't see how we can have a projectile encased in plasma. This idea of a laser ionizing the air in front of the projectile is promising albeit quite technical. If you're going for realism, I would research cold plasma's longevity in atmosphere. My guess is that, due to the reactivity of the ions that it would be very, very short.

 

Why would a plasma-gun's projectiles be slow? Something shooting hot plasma out in bolt form is pure fantasy at any rate. I would sooner just say that the plasma travels very fast. It makes no difference in terms of the game mechanics.

Edited August 10, 2004 by fux0r666

[Robo Dojo 58]

There is a plasmacannon with 100gram projectile with barely few hundred m/s muzzle velocity. Devastates the thing it hits, but is slow and hardly pierces window glass. Then there is the piercergun with 1 gram projectile, 5km/s muzzle velocity. Pierces virtually anything, no need to lead target and well enough power to jellify/crush any living thing it hits. I know which i would choose.

I'm going with the plasma cannon. The instant that projectile touches the glass, it's turning into glass steam. The heat stress would most likely shatter the glass completely.

[kchickenlord]

I think we should implement more spells for the mage class, take that you nasty little kobold!!!

 

But thats just my opinion

[x0563511]

About the problem with the components in the rounds... why allow further research into 'alien alloys' and allow the player to discover and manufacture alloys that can handle that kind of force? Stemming off that would be a personal armor type, that would be all but impervious to all but energy weapons (think like stormtrooper armor - physically impervious, vulnerable to laser/blaster)

[RustedSoul]

I think we should implement more spells for the mage class, take that you nasty little kobold!!!

 

But thats just my opinion 

 

agreed

http://www.xcomufo.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1738

 

 

ok rule out xenium

 

that would leave alien alloy's, psi abilities, and anything you can gain from alien autopsies.

 

so a synthetic stock steyer aug with intergrated alien alloy barrel. Firing an alien alloy projectile coated in a toxin stemming from autopsies research. Also, equipped with a psi imaging scope, aswell as having the ability to accelerate the bullet using laser tech. It's probably just me, but i think you can stick more on that liddle bugger, maybe a wookie bowcaster

[fux0r666]

THe barrel wouldn't really be the problem with a hotter, faster expanding propellant, it would be the moving parts and the person behind the weapon. Making a very light weapon would make it difficult to control when firing. That problem would double if the shots were more violent. Cordite has been in use since 1887, and I think they use it because it has the right combination of properties. Edited August 11, 2004 by fux0r666

[RustedSoul]

do you think the force of the cartridge could be compensated by strapping a grenade launcher to the front of it, aswell as implementing somekind of variant to the hydraulic/ car suspension system behind/along the bolt? Edited August 11, 2004 by RustedSoul

[fux0r666]

I think that a better solution would be the Blow-Back-Shifted-Impulse as they have it on the AN-94. When the rifle is fired in a very high ROF burst mode, the whole mechanism recoils backwards within the gun. This way, the firer nor the gun experiences recoil until the last round has left the gun. This is achieved by having a 2 stage feed system where the bullets go from the magazine to a recoilling feeder.

 

On the plus side of having a very light weapon would be that the mechanism would be very light and therefore you wouldn't have the added impulse of heavy bolt ramming back and forth like you do on the ak47.

 

You could add a grenade launcher or what not to increase the mass. That would stop the muzzle from rising but that won't stop the gun from pushing you around. You could probably also add an extensive muzzle break at the end like on the m82. That would make the weapon kind of uncomfortable to fire without ear protection, though. Another thing about violent explosions is that they are very loud, and this gun with the super-gunpowder would be VERY loud.

 

This really high impulse shooting would probably be best used as some sort of sniper/sharpshooter weapon, firing on burst mode from a supported (bipod)position.

 

In game terms, none of this really matters. I just know that if I was playing a game with 'advanced gunpowder' as a research item I would be thinking to myself.. "hmmm... okaaaaaay" and in order not to just dismiss it as a construct of the gameplay design I would need more information. Then again, I love fluff... the more airtight the better... which is probably readily apparent in the content of my posts.

Edited August 11, 2004 by fux0r666

[Tuoppi]

The point was that I don't see how we can have a projectile encased in plasma. This idea of a laser ionizing the air in front of the projectile is promising albeit quite technical. If you're going for realism, I would research cold plasma's longevity in atmosphere. My guess is that, due to the reactivity of the ions that it would be very, very short.

 

Why would a plasma-gun's projectiles be slow? Something shooting hot plasma out in bolt form is pure fantasy at any rate. I would sooner just say that the plasma travels very fast. It makes no difference in terms of the game mechanics.

The bullet is not "encased" in plasma. Laser in the gun ionizes a path in the air a microsec before bullet reaches it, thus plasma longevity is not a problem.

 

Theory of plasmagun is quite simple. It is a gun that heats up some matter to plasma and contains and propels it with magnetic fields. Plasma-gun projectiles need to be slow, If they were fast there is no point in heating it to plasma. Because: 1)Recoil, large projectiles cannot be shot from small gun fast. See details far above. 2)Heat energy, proportional to projectile mass. If projectile is small enough to be fired fast, it cannot contain enough energy to burn/melt efficiently. Otherwise bullet had to be way hotter than by any means possible, the mere infrared radiation from it prevents it. Thus a waste of plasmatech and more useful as normal solid-bullet gun.

 

I'm going with the plasma cannon. The instant that projectile touches the glass, it's turning into glass steam. The heat stress would most likely shatter the glass completely.

Yes. Absolutely. The glass would get shattered, vaporized and probably the wall is set afire. And the snakeman behind it is unharmed, surprised and shoots you in the face.

 

About the problem with the components in the rounds... why allow further research into 'alien alloys' and allow the player to discover and manufacture alloys that can handle that kind of force? Stemming off that would be a personal armor type, that would be all but impervious to all but energy weapons (think like stormtrooper armor - physically impervious, vulnerable to laser/blaster)

I don't think the force is THAT great... Human metals might be able to take it. Anyway we do shoot bullets at 1km/s with no big problems, basic A-alloys are well enough.

so a synthetic stock steyer aug with intergrated alien alloy barrel. Firing an alien alloy projectile coated in a toxin stemming from autopsies research. Also, equipped with a psi imaging scope, aswell as having the ability to accelerate the bullet using laser tech.

That is what i'm talking about! Killer! How about miniature toxic Blaster Bombs as ammo?

 

And for the recoil... Please see calculations far above. This gun would have LESS recoil than normal assault rifle.

 

Phew... must be my longest post ever. Quotes help...

[fux0r666]

>>>>

Thus we achieve large energy and reasonable recoil. A quick calculation gives us: 1 g bullet at 5km/s results in 5kgm/s recoil and 12500j energy as 7,62 WP has recoil value of 5,6kgm/s and muzzle energy of 2970j.

>>>>

 

I didn't want to go into it because I didn't want to have to critique the bad physics and math. First off, energy is calculated by m(d^2)(t^-2) where m is mass, d is distance and t is time. That would make energy of your round 25000 joules.

 

Force is measured in mass*accelleration. Since the accelleration of the round would be much more violent, the force would be much greater. (as accelleration is d*t^-2, where d is distance and t is time. Ergo, the smaller the amount of time spent in accelleration, all other things being equal, the greater the force). Given this equation, neglecting duration of the gasseous expansion, the force of your shot would be 5 Newtons. The force of the 7.62 Winchester round in your example would be 8.36 Newtons. The force of a 5.56 NATO round in recoil is 3.7 Newtons, and the force of a 9mm parabellum round is 2.9 Newtons. A 7.62x45 Russian round has 5.6 N.

 

What you're measuring in kgm/s is momentum. Your round would have a momentum 5 Newton seconds, whereas the 7.63 Winchester round would have 8.36 Newton seconds of momentum. Comparatively, the 5.56mm round has 3.7 Newton seconds of momentum.

 

Now, as you can see, what your bullet mainly has going for it is velocity and energy. It's recoil, if gauged by imparted momentum, or by the amount of force required to propel the bullet to its muzzle velocity, is more than a 5.56 remmington round but less than the 7.62 winchester.

 

Furthermore, your one grain bullet is very light weight. It is less that half of the weight of a .22 lr. It would be short ranged, and inaccurate in anything less than still air. It would lose energy VERY quickly, would impart very little energy to its target. It would be a poor penetrator at anything greater than short range, and once inside the target would have very little surface area to impart the little energy it had left.

 

Now, including the laser-that-generates-plasma, assuming the plasma is long lasting enough in the cool atmosphere to make such a trip through it possible, and stable enough to stay in one place (plasma is electromagnetically repells itself due to its magnetic charge), that would solve some of the drag issues, but NOT the low mass issue and the low surface area issue. Your round brings to mind the same arguments usually involved in debunking the effectiveness of flechette rounds.

Edited August 12, 2004 by fux0r666

[Tuoppi]

Arrrgh! Please read what i have posted in about 10 last messages... True that my calculations were quick and simplified, but the point was that recoil is similar to normal assault rifle and energy of bullet far greater, right?

 

Energy transfer issue is solved by sonic shockwave through body.

 

Plasma dissipating is not a problem because a laser continuously puts energy ahead of bullet to make it last. It doesn't have to stay there for more than few cm/s of bullet flight, about 0,000000001s. It stays there much longer than needed, just see some fact about lightnings.

 

Accuracy in wind is far greater than normal assault rifle's due to larger speed and is more than adequate for our close-range combat.

 

Penetration is also far greater than that of normal rifle because more energy is focused in smaller area in shorter time.

 

The gun would definitely be noisy... strong explosive propellant and thunderbolt-like sound from air plasma-expansion.

 

BTW, WP is the russian 7,62.

[centurion]

>>>>

Thus we achieve large energy and reasonable recoil. A quick calculation gives us: 1 g bullet at 5km/s results in 5kgm/s recoil and 12500j energy as 7,62 WP has recoil value of 5,6kgm/s and muzzle energy of 2970j.

>>>>

 

I didn't want to go into it because I didn't want to have to critique the bad physics and math.  First off, energy is calculated by m(d^2)(t^-2) where m is mass, d is distance and t is time.  That would make energy of your round 25000 joules.

Kinetic energy is calculated as m*v^2/2, giving 12.5 kJ. edit: typo

Force is measured in mass*accelleration.  Since the accelleration of the round would be much more violent, the force would be much greater.  (as accelleration is d*t^-2, where d is distance and t is time.  Ergo, the smaller the amount of time spent in accelleration, all other things being equal, the greater the force).  Given this equation, neglecting duration of the gasseous expansion, the force of your shot would be 5 Newtons.  The force of the 7.62 Winchester round in your example would be 8.36 Newtons.  The force of a 5.56 NATO round in recoil is 3.7 Newtons, and the force of a 9mm parabellum round is 2.9 Newtons.  A 7.62x45 Russian round has 5.6 N.

d = a*t^2/2

v = a*t

thus a = v^2/(2*d), force m*a = m*v^2/(2*d) = 10 kN under assumption that length is 1.25 m (this is only the accelerating part anyway). But this is going throught the whole gun, and only the momentum counts as it's carried all the way to you; the force may count if the gun is light and the shot fast (you'll get kicked instead of pushed).

Furthermore, your one grain bullet is very light weight.  It is less that half of the weight of a .22 lr.  It would be short ranged, and inaccurate in anything less than still air.  It would lose energy VERY quickly, would impart very little energy to its target.  It would be a poor penetrator at anything greater than short range, and once inside the target would have very little surface area to impart the little energy it had left.

Could you provide some concrete data to see what will these parameters be? Besides, a round that loses energy in the air loses energy in the target, too, so it could provide the coveted sonic shock.

Now, including the laser-that-generates-plasma, assuming the plasma is long lasting enough in the cool atmosphere to make such a trip through it possible, and stable enough to stay in one place (plasma is electromagnetically repells itself due to its magnetic charge), that would solve some of the drag issues, but NOT the low mass issue and the low surface area issue.  Your round brings to mind the same arguments usually involved in debunking the effectiveness of flechette rounds.

Low surface is not a problem unless the projectile could go through the target.

Edited August 13, 2004 by centurion