ART-Artopod

[j'ordos]

Well I got the .3ds-file from the assetlist, I take it that's the same you got.

And I'll give it a good look and if needed start over, although I think some parts at least will remain usable, I'll see how it turns out.

Although you say animation is not required yet, it'll have to be constructed so that it can be animated in the end, are there any special points of consideration (ok I know that more detail is going to be required where the joints come, but other than that)?

[red knight]

As a design principle, dont worry about polygon count... use as much as you need (and even more if you want)... the current trend is to do them very high and use LOD (Level of Detail) technics to automatically simplify the model.

 

Take a look at this: http://developer.nvidia.com/object/melody_home.html even if it looks like much programming oriented, the point is that dont worry about poly count... take in mind, for space sake dont go outside of the 3 Millon polygons

 

Greetings

Red Knight

Edited December 13, 2004 by red knight

[Vaaish]

Although you say animation is not required yet, it'll have to be constructed so that it can be animated in the end, are there any special points of consideration (ok I know that more detail is going to be required where the joints come, but other than that)?

 

 

not really... put as much detail in as required to make it look good and animate properly and keep it under 3000 polys (preferably 1500 to 2000)

[red knight]

Vaaish, take a look at the post before your last one. The most important reason is that you can create the normal mapping from the high poly version and then derivate the low poly from it. You CANT do it the other way arround, that was part of the task that I assigned fidel to test like 4 or 5 months ago.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

Edited December 13, 2004 by red knight

[Vaaish]

I was under the impression we would normal map environmental models but only bump characters.

 

I understand the process involved in making normal maps, but I'm still not convinced that normal mapping is going to be effective for the characters at the distances we will see them or will give better results than bump mapped charcters.

[red knight]

Basicly the process is the same, you just skip the bump map if they are way away from the camera, but this models are going to be put in the XNet so a proper normal mapped model is required. I think I forgot to tell you what Fidel has been researching regarding the issue, and the quality difference is astonishing (take a look at HL2) even if models are very away the normal map gives them a degree of detail that surpass any game out there. The good part is that I am researching (with a friend, a Computers Graphics professor here) how to do Spherical Harmonics, with just 9 coheficients you get 3% away of the real lighting (with only 3 major light sources ). That even works in older cards as the ATI 9200.

 

Other issue is that we are taking very long to do Xenocide, by the time we finish we will have to make all models again (as they will look aged) so the safe bet is to rely on automatized tools to downgrade the models to the degree of detail that we want than to manually add detail after. So we should reconsider to do so in a very large scale ( I put a cap of 3 Million polygons because that is a very safe bet ).

 

BTW, models very away from the camera would not need that much detail either so a plain automatized (engine) LOD is more than enough.

 

I had been researching all that in the last couple of weeks (when work permits) but we should go that way if we dont want to finish looking like crap. I think a generalized announcement (remember this forums is limited in scope) would be necesary. The announcement should say (in other words of course), if you are under 500.000 keep adding detail until you are satisfied with your work.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[Vaaish]

OK I see where you are coming from and I concur. I don't see small items(weapons things like that) needing to be upped too much but we can go ahead with characters.

[j'ordos]

Here's what I have so far, the NURBS shell worked OK until I changed it into a mesh which shows some small errors, nothing to serious though. What I wanted to ask, fuxor's concept has tentacles, while the uploaded model did not. Were we going to leave those out or not?

oh yeah, about 5k polygons now...

[Vaaish]

we can add tentacles if you think you can get them to look good and animate. it'll definately add more character to the model .

[j'ordos]

we can add tentacles if you think you can get them to look good and animate. it'll definately add more character to the model .

right... <_>

:wink1:

 

I'll see what I can do

[Vaaish]

sorry about that. shold probably proof a bit more when I write.

[red knight]

I would definitly go toward a 800K model just to be sure you can give it character. Right now the level of detail does not give such a sense.

 

I think that I didnt stressed enough that GO FOR MUCH HIGHER COUNTS, dont worry about it, make them look amazing and let programmers figure out how to LOD the stuff.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[fux0r666]

I'm back and I'm easing myself back into the workflow! Thanks for all of your patience!

 

edit: actually, since I can now model in 3d, you can send me the model and I can tweak it to look like my vision if you like. I'm new but I'm getting the hang of achieving the effects that I'm after.

Edited December 26, 2004 by fux0r666

[j'ordos]

What prog are you using? if you use 3dsmax I can send you the .max file, otherwise I'll export it to .3ds

Though I don't mind doing it, but since it'll be 800k you might just as well start from scratch

Or maybe I'll just apply Meshsmooth ad infinitum

 

edit: 800k

Edited December 26, 2004 by j'ordos

[fux0r666]

I'm back and I'm easing myself back into the workflow!  Thanks for all of your patience!

 

edit:  actually, since I can now model in 3d, you can send me the model and I can tweak it to look like my vision if you like.  I'm new but I'm getting the hang of achieving the effects that I'm after.

 

3dsmax!

 

There are a lot of things 'wrong' with the model.. but I think most of the ugliness has to do with shading groups, volumes and geometry that is at odds with the shape of the object. Most of the features are there, though, so it would be a shame to start from scratch. I think it would be faster for me to take the framework, scale and distort it to a more pleasing shape, then edit the vertices like I did with the grey model.

Edited December 29, 2004 by fux0r666

[j'ordos]

Ok then, here's where I am at the moment, I've been trying to add some more detail here and there. Body and Shell were totally redone, since I didn't like the way the body was split in separate parts, and I feel the shell is smoother now too. The legs, eyes and plasma guns I still wanted to do, they can be modeled with some more detail. I did change them a bit so they're slightly better though, but since polycount is no restriction (except for my computer that is ) it's better to remake them anyway. Oh yeah, it totals at around 30k polygons now...

 

hmm, I'm not authorised to attach files with .max extension apparently

 

edit: although you may not like the way I'm taking it, it's rather different as this pic shows...

artopod15.rar

Edited December 29, 2004 by j'ordos

[[[Micah]]]

The .max extension has now been added to acceptable attachment extensions. Please carry on

[red knight]

The high poly version is looking far better than the low poly, I dont know if that is what fux had envision, but definitly the extra poly gives it a far better look.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[Vaaish]

Looking Good J, keep it up I'm not too fond of the "skirt" that covers the legs in the high poly version though.

[j'ordos]

Looking Good J, keep it up I'm not too fond of the "skirt" that covers the legs in the high poly version though.

No problem, that's easy enough to change (still have the NURBS curve lying around, if anyone wants to play around with it...)

I did a quick change here, pulled up the skirts and gave the upper half a sharper line. I wasn't entirely fond of the skirts either, I just thought they'd make sense to protect what would be the weakest part: the leg-body joints. Plus, they provide some more 'bulk' to the thing

nurbsshell.max

Edited December 29, 2004 by j'ordos

[fux0r666]

I cooked this up in a couple of hours this morning. Getting used to max again is a challenge but I think the legs were a good place to start. There are some frontal details, etc that I will start and a few shapes I'd like to define.. The nurbs model is very detailed but I think it need some more definite edges. I've never worked with nurbs before . It there any way to change the geometry style so that it is easier to manipulate as a mesh? ie. less like a spider web and more like a ship's keel spars.

 

However, I really like the shape of the carapace. It really looks cool. I'll play with it a bit as a mesh but I think I'll probably end up keeping it as you have it, J'ordos.

 

edit: nevermind, I've found that when you convert to a mesh, the gemetry becomes more regular.

Edited December 30, 2004 by fux0r666

[Vaaish]

I've been thinking about that pic fux, what if you put the front leg 180 degrees around to the back, right now it might be a pain to animate the thing ducking down w/o hitting it's face.

[fux0r666]

I think it should be okay.. The reason why it is like that it because I don't want it to be too similar to... well.. every other tripod monster I've seen.

 

 

The legs are seperate. I can also keep the fairings seperate. When I'm done I'll attach it old-school heirarchy style and apply some IK. If it doesn't work out I'll just rotate the leg assembly 180 degrees. What do you think?

[j'ordos]

I'm wondering how much space it will require to get through a door, it looks like it'll take more than it's original 4 spaces surface area when ducked, it seems to me it will require 6 or 8 squares when it's crouched. This can be a problem in cramped buildings, or when other creatures are standing near the door.

[Vaaish]

@fux, sounds good.

 

@j, depends on this things final size... i'f it's as big as a mech then we'll have problems, if it's maybe 3 feet taller than an average human it should be fine. IIRC there was an image of it next to a human for comparison.

[fux0r666]

here's another update. I swung stuff around quite a bit and added a mouth. I also reduced to polycount on the nose and... rear bulb quite a bit. Polies are now spaced about .25 centimeters apart, and the thing is 2.7 meters tall.

Edited December 31, 2004 by fux0r666

[j'ordos]

Well, does it need a mouth? AFAIK it's a robot, hence: no mouth required?

[fux0r666]

A shark must swim, but does a bird need to fly?

[fux0r666]

Just thought I'd post because I'm pleased at the progress I'm making in skill and in terms of the model. Man, is soft select ever indispensable. I've never used it before an hour ago.

[j'ordos]

Sorry for opening this up again, but I've just received the model and started reconstructing it. First there's a lot of artefacts I wanted to get rid of, so far I've done the shell and started on the body. Thing is, there's a hole in its belly, and I was wondering if fux put that there for a reason, or whether it just needs to be closed.

edit: also, the carapace doesn't really fit there either so I'd better change that, but should I

1. widen the carapace; or
   
2. make the body more narrow?
   

Edited June 28, 2005 by j'ordos

[fux0r666]

The hole is not there for any reason.

 

Try widening the carapace- maybe increasing its height as you do so, or just reduce the size of that bulb. I want the carapace to look sleek and thin, but I also want there to be equalateral spacing between the legs.

[j'ordos]

Ok, closed the hole and made the body follow the shell some more. Now, the hardest part: the legs. I've been at it this afternoon and just can't figure out how they fit together nicely (they seem to have changed a little since your last pic). I'll put a pic of where I stand now, it just looks weird though. And the joints don't fit the openings either, but that could be a problem due to the conversion or something. Anyway, a little help would be appreciated

I'll add a pic of how they got delivered to me for reference as well.

[Vaaish]

It would probably be easies to just rebuild the leg from the pic you have and use whats in teh file right now as reference to get the joints in teh right place.

 

for how they join a good possiblity would be to look at crabs and lobster to see how the legs join.

[fux0r666]

They have changed due to crappy errors in exporting them. I can try and export only the legs and see what happens. It appears to me that the biggest change is that they are squished in towards the centre quite alot. for intance, the joints, if I recall correctly, are supposed to be disc-like. Assuming that all of the components of each leg have the same destructive transformation applied to them, maybe if you select all of the components and make the discs round, the rest look as they should. If you get one leg right you can kill the rest and just swing around some clones 120 degress each way. Edited June 28, 2005 by fux0r666

[fux0r666]

Nope... I took a look and the legs are totally destroyed. There is little resemblence to those shapes and the legs I carefully designed.

[fux0r666]

converting them to .obj seems to work without artifacts or errors.

artocrap.rar

Edited June 28, 2005 by fux0r666

[j'ordos]

Unfortunately, my max won't open nor import .obj files

[fux0r666]

can you give me a list of the file types that your version will import?

[j'ordos]

open: .max, .chr

import: .3ds, .prj, autocad .dwg and .dxf, 3dstudio shape .shp, stereolitho .stl, lightscape .ls, .vw, .lp, iges .igs, .ige, .iges, vrml .wrl, .wrz and filmbox .fbx

I have no idea what most of these are, but it can import from and export to an autocad model, maybe that's worth a try?

edit: well, I assume .dxf is a model...

Edited June 29, 2005 by j'ordos

[Vaaish]

your best bets would be 3ds or DXF.

[j'ordos]

Did you have any luck converting it to another file type then?

[fux0r666]

No, I don't spend any time at home on the weekends. I'm just getting to that stuff right now.

 

edit: actually, no, no time. I'll get to it in the next couple of days... probably tomorrow.

Edited July 4, 2005 by fux0r666

[fux0r666]

I hope this works. I used the 2000 version of DXF. If you need the earliest version let me know.

artocrap.rar

[j'ordos]

Right, I've finally started on this (sry for delay :Blush: )

Importing from dxf seems to work allright, luckily. Some normals had to be flipped but otherwise, this is the result, which looks pretty much like it should look, to me at least.

Now, just to be on the level, what exactly is still required here?

I'll list things as far as I can see, please add if needed.

1. capping some holes; removing some artifacts
   
2. adding joints between feet and lower leg, and between upper leg and body
   
3. adjusting shell and/or body shape a little to make them fit better together
   
4. tentacles
   
5. the weapons had spikes like the other plasma weapons, but they seem missing, or was it a conscious decision to leave them out?
   

Anything else?

[Vaaish]

getting it down to around 2000-3000 polys

[fux0r666]

No, I didn't intend to lose them (the spikes). I'm not sure what happened there.

 

Go to, J'ordos. It should be alright now. Thanks for being a good sport about the alterations I made.

[j'ordos]

No, I didn't intend to lose them (the spikes).  I'm not sure what happened there.

 

Go to, J'ordos.  It should be alright now.  Thanks for being a good sport about the alterations I made.

Did you change much on those? Otherwise I'd just import them from the model I still have, because importing dxf still messes the model up somewhat (that, or you were very sloppy when modeling )

Well, it was your concept and all, so...

getting it down to around 2000-3000 polys

ehhr... I just finished removing artefacts from the shell, body is in progress. It looked okay but closer inspection revealed that the two parts didn't fit together at all anymore, requiring more work than I thought. Still, that's one part finished.

That said, the polycount is perfect... if this was the entire model

Edited August 7, 2005 by j'ordos

[Vaaish]

No, I didn't intend to lose them (the spikes).  I'm not sure what happened there.

 

Go to, J'ordos.  It should be alright now.  Thanks for being a good sport about the alterations I made.

Did you change much on those? Otherwise I'd just import them from the model I still have, because importing dxf still messes the model up somewhat (that, or you were very sloppy when modeling )

Well, it was your concept and all, so...

getting it down to around 2000-3000 polys

ehhr... I just finished removing artefacts from the shell, body is in progress. It looked okay but closer inspection revealed that the two parts didn't fit together at all anymore, requiring more work than I thought. Still, that's one part finished.

That said, the polycount is perfect... if this was the entire model

 

 

it's looking good as far as that shell is concerned.

[j'ordos]

body+shell+vents

Polycount for this is already about 7k

But I'm guessing the body parts concealed by the shell can be deleted, it's not like we're going to be able to shoot of pieces of the armor so the body underneath it becomes visible.

Edited August 8, 2005 by j'ordos

[Vaaish]

body+shell+vents

Polycount for this is already about 7k

But I'm guessing the body parts concealed by the shell can be deleted, it's not like we're going to be able to shoot of pieces of the armor so the body underneath it becomes visible.

 

those parts will probably be visable when the creature dies

 

you can probably save a bundle on polys if we make the vents a texture instead of modeled.

Edited August 8, 2005 by Vaaish