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XCOMUFO & Xenocide

Issue #139 Base Facilities Texturing


Vaaish

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True, but we are trying to make the modules look like they are prefab so the external text would be from then the segments were constructed.
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  • 4 weeks later...
Blargh, I upgraded to Vista a tad bit too early I think, in any case 3ds max refuses to run on it; im trying to get it working, though photoshop seems fine...
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  • 3 weeks later...

Im still alive and out there :P

 

Im not so sure about the actual lift texture and I think I will change it to something else...

Lift_003.jpg

Lift_004.jpg

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looking good. I don't think the problem is necessarily the texture itself, I think the issue is more size. if you look at the "carpet" around the lift, the pattern is much smaller than the pattern on the lift itself... if you shrink that pattern by maybe 2-3x it'll look alot better.
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Blargh, I upgraded to Vista a tad bit too early I think, in any case 3ds max refuses to run on it; im trying to get it working, though photoshop seems fine...

 

if your still having problems with 3d studio max let me know, i have it working on mine... if all you get is that one error at the beginning and nothing else is messed up then its fine, besides the annoyance

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  • 2 months later...
Still alive, and slowly chugging along...

Lift_004.jpg

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Still alive, and slowly chugging along...

For experimental purposes, please export the model to a .fbx file, zip it up and e-mail it to me.

e-mail is davidt at pharos,co,nz.

Replace the "at" and commas with you know what.

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Still alive, and slowly chugging along...

For experimental purposes, please export the model to a .fbx file, zip it up and e-mail it to me.

e-mail is davidt at pharos,co,nz.

Replace the "at" and commas with you know what.

Well, here's what the .x file laser rifle looks like in XNA.

Regretably, the .fbx model doesn't import.

xeno.xna.2007_05_13A.JPG

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Send me a couple of .fbx files and I will try in the weekend to understand why they dont work.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

I've uploaded the .fbx file shinzon sent me to the ftp site.

path /programming/laser_rifle.zip.

It was too big to attach to PM.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Ok, I will add that task to my outlook for the weekend.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

Posted in a different thread:

About .fbx I have been investigating the issue and found out that the original exporters that comes from Autodesk in 3D Max are flawed, you have to download the new SDK of FBX with its new importers from here:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index...&id=6839916

 

Noneless I heard too that Blender 2.44 has already FBX exporters, so if you are doing models in blender the exporting should be easy:

http://msmvps.com/blogs/mykre/archive/2007...fbx-export.aspx

 

So if anyone can try those excelent, I have to give my first mid term exam in 4 years :S on Thursday (knew 1 week ago about it), I am basically screwed. As Dteviot said, XNA version is still Xperimental; even though it is the most active branch of development (thanks dteviot and rincewind for that).

 

Greetings

Red Knight

I've tried Blender 2.44 (it wasn't successful.) Can someone else please try the new SDK and e-mail me the resulting file. (address was on 6th post prior to this one.)

 

Thanks.

dteviot

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  • 2 months later...
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  • 4 weeks later...

the current texture; and along with it a question:

 

Will the elevator actualy ever move? or is more of a "static" thing?

Lift.png

Edited by Shinzon
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Alright; then I am going to cut the lower part of the "Elevator" off...
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Nice Shinzon. Really nice. Keep up the good work! :)

 

- Zombie

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  • 2 months later...
I am proud to say I found an old zip with the alien containment texture. Converted the model and applied it and here we go. Have to fix the tubes but besides that AC is done!

Very good, thanks!! Where did you really? :S

 

(btw, that reminds me that the public ftp folder could use some cleaning, there's also stuff in there that isn't on the SVN (probably doesn't need to but you never know))

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Its in the top floor, art meeting room. Had to do show all.

 

Here is with the tubes fixed. It wont look glowing in game however as we cannot do spec maps yet.

 

Yeah I would like to clean the SVN and public up, however I do not have SVN access yet.. *hint*

Alien3.jpg

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Funny. I seem to remember another AC model... strange... did we actually have two of these?

 

edit: as for the ftp/svn... as long as this svn access thingy is not working out, why don't you tell me what you think needs to be moved and I'll gladly help out.

Edited by Mad
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  • 1 month later...
How will base facilities work in battlescape; I know they are supposed to be destroyable eventualy; but wouldn't that mean that the entire facility has to be made out of "cells" much like the original X-Com? And theese will be used only in the base view? (And supposedly in the first version of the battlescape?)
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How will base facilities work in battlescape; I know they are supposed to be destroyable eventualy; but wouldn't that mean that the entire facility has to be made out of "cells" much like the original X-Com? And theese will be used only in the base view? (And supposedly in the first version of the battlescape?)

These are excellent questions. Ones I have been asking myself. I'll try and give what answers I when I can find the time.

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How will base facilities work in battlescape; I know they are supposed to be destroyable eventualy; but wouldn't that mean that the entire facility has to be made out of "cells" much like the original X-Com? And theese will be used only in the base view? (And supposedly in the first version of the battlescape?)

These are excellent questions. Ones I have been asking myself. I'll try and give what answers I when I can find the time.

So that we can discuss this intelligently, and to save me a lot of time (and typing), I'm going to ask you to do a bit of homework.

Task 1, understand how terrain is modelled in various games. (By terrain, I mean ground, floors, walls, doors, windows, elevators, etc.)

  • Quake handles terrain by having a volume of empty space called the "void". Convex polygons are then added into to the void, to mark obstacles to the player (and bots). e.g. Walls, floors, steps, pillars, etc. A data structure called a BSP (Binary Space Partition) tree is used to keep track of all these polygons. The reason for the BSP tree is that it can be used to efficiently determine things like what is visible from any position in the void, whether a position in the void has a line of sight on another, etc.
  • Tiled games. (Note, X-Com 1, 2, & 3 used a 3D tile system)
  • RTS games use a height map. (Note, in many ways, a hight map is a special kind of tile system.)

There may be others, if you can find them, please let me know.

Edited by dteviot
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I am familiar with both tiles and height maps...

 

Tiles themselves can be broken down into diffrent kinds, depending on their view; the original x-com used isometric view; which is the most popular for many of the games out there, as it allows you to give an illusion of 3D without actualy having to worry about perspective (When programing)...

 

Height maps; the Obilivion's engine also uses a Heightmap to draw it's basic terrain shape. Basicly it is just a displacement map used in most modeling suits... Probably will be good for generating the basic ground of a level as a start; using diffrent noise maps and diffrent formulas to achivie diffrent terrain (Hills; mountains; Flatlands; etc) and on top of that the engine plops down "Tile Modules" and builds the level on top of the nice terrain...

 

As for the quake thing; I am not sure about that; I tinkered around with the source engine which uses "Brushes" and it is impossible to create breakable terrain in there... (Actualy the code for dynamic displacement is already there; except it doesn't change the "Physics Box" so it is quite useless in multiplayer or any other non scripted event that the player is expected to interact with... So with most 3D shooter Engines the world is set in stone using geomtry "Brushes" and then just painting them over with the desired textures. Even modern day games like Crisis; with all the graphical hoopla don't feature an enviornment that can be torn up real bad; so I doubt Xenocide will go down that implementation...

 

What I have seen in the programing thread looks like we will be using 3d Tiles; and as a result the "State" of each tile can be monitered and altered (No?) much like in the original X-Com; that means in order for everything to be nice and distructable without blowing up your computer; each battleground will have to be generated by the computer; putting together coherent enviornments using libraries of diffrent "Cells" ranging from benches; walls; etc.

 

As it currently stands, all of the models are smiliar to sources "Brush" geometry as in once compiled into the game, they will not be able to change at all; unless the guys in the prog dep start to implement something fancy and the likes of real physics simulators....

 

Was all of that correct?

 

****

 

There was a game out there Silent Storm or something; About nazies and stuff; it was like a 3d Version of X-Com; and by the looks of it, it didn't use any tile system as the terrain broke appart depending on the spot shot at (Per Pixel). I have no Idea how all of that was handeled; but it sure didn't look like any tile work...

 

As for what I have been up to all this time; and not to look like a complete idiot (I hope) :P :

 

I am currently going to University studying Computer Science...

Edited by Shinzon
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I am currently going to University studying Computer Science...
Ah another member of the club :D, I hope you enjoy yourself there :)

 

There are 3 Silent Storm games, the last one is this

 

I didn't find any technical/AI-related articles on the internet for this game, it's a pity :/

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Yep thats the one...

 

Also I remembered another way of generating terrain; I kind of overlaped with it in the displacement map though...

 

Procedural Terain: Using mathematical formulas and simple "Seeded" Values to alter the terrain to what ever you want; without actualy storing any graphical data; also a bonus to this is that it is infinatly scalable; so as techology increased, you can just increase the detail without limit...

 

A game that uses this is an indy MMO currently being developed by one guy is called Infinity; the results he has been able to achieve using procedural terrain is simply amazing; and whats even more impressive is the scale he is using it at (Entire planets are generated)

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Procedural Terrain: Using mathematical formulas and simple "Seeded" Values to alter the terrain to what ever you want; without actualy storing any graphical data; also a bonus to this is that it is infinitely scalable; so as technology increased, you can just increase the detail without limit...

Procedural Terrain isn't quite the same thing. This refers to how the terrain is created. There is still the issue of how the created terrain is manipulated, for doing things like "what can player see".

E.g. Most procedural terrain I've seen uses a hight map as the terrain. That is, there's a deformed mesh that follows the terrain. With procedural terrain, the mesh is created on the fly using mathematical equations, as needed. Unlike, say, Total Annihilation, which used bitmaps.

 

I've found a really good article explaining how the Quake/Half Life/Unreal BSP trees work, and why they don't support deformable terrain. It's only a few pages long and I recommend reading it.

 

Going back to the cube/tile map that Xenocide is currently using.

It has the advantage that it's very simple to understand. And should handle destruction of cell faces reasonably easily. However it has a number of big problems.

  • It's really, really ugly. There are several reasons for this.
    • Walls can only run parallel to the X, Y and Z axis. (Along the faces of the cubes.)
    • Features must be multiples of the cell dimensions.
    • The terrain mesh is very simple, just one quad per cube face.

    [*]Now I think we might be able to do something about the last point, by setting up a series simple of 3D models to represent different walls, and then draw the models in place of the quads. Note, this introduces its on problems. In a simple terrain, we see a 20 x 20 grid of cells, with 5 faces per cell, giving a total of 2,0000 models to render, just to draw the terrain. So, if we draw each model individually, this would be 2,000 draw calls. Far more than can be handled.

    I think we could reduce this to a manageable number by using model instancing. Basically a trick where you can give the graphic card one draw command that says, "here's a model", and here's a list of all the places it is to be drawn.

    A couple of additional points.

    • The above assumes we just render the area in the user's viewing fustrum, and do not attempt to attempt to render the entire terrain.
    • The way the current terrain render engine works is it generates a single mesh for the entire terrain, and then renders it with a single draw command.
    • So, going the suggested route would require changing the engine to only build the mesh based on the viewing fustrum, and rebuild the mesh when the camera moves.
    • However, it does give a big advantage when we have deformable terrain, as the mesh would be regenerated every frame, it would immediately handle changes in the terrain. This becomes more important when don't show the "unexplored" areas of the map, and when we have night missions with lighting.

Sorry on the run there, just trying to get my current thoughts down on how we could do terrain rendering.

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So is the cube/tilemap going to be the final terrain implementation? Or is more of a temporary place holder for something more jumbled up?

 

Or are you looking for possible solution right now?

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So is the cube/tilemap going to be the final terrain implementation? Or is more of a temporary place holder for something more jumbled up?

 

Or are you looking for possible solution right now?

Excellent questions. The honest answer is a bit complicated and goes:

  • I'm currently not really sure how to do the terrain.
  • I started with the cube map because it was the quickest and easiest solution. So it gave me something to try, and minimum cost if it didn't pan out. Plus it gives me a framework to start building other things on, in particular, AI, and a playable (if awful looking terrain) for play testing.
  • However, to get a good looking terrain is going to take a lot of work, both from the programming side, and from the artwork side.
  • So what I'm really doing is tossing out ideas, because I'd really like to discuss this with others and see if we can come up with a better solution.

Edited by dteviot
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In that case; how should I proceed with the base facilities? Should I take into considerartion the fact they are going to be viewed mostly for far off; as in the base view; or that the playe will get close and personal. And at current it seems that they will not fit into the 3D Cell type of model...
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In that case; how should I proceed with the base facilities? Should I take into considerartion the fact they are going to be viewed mostly for far off; as in the base view; or that the playe will get close and personal. And at current it seems that they will not fit into the 3D Cell type of model...

Well, at the moment I think they're only going to be used in X-Net and baseview. And to be honest, I suspect symbolic icons would be better in base view than actual models.

That said, the 3D models that have been done COULD be used in the batllescape, using them as a "skin" over the cell structure.

That is, in battlescape, instead of the existing render code that draws quads where cell walls are, it draws a facility model.

However, in the game engine where the logic lives, there's a set of cells that represent the 3D model. I.e. there's cell walls where there are walls in the 3D model, door gaps, etc. Of course, to do this someone's going to have to create the cell layouts that match the 3D models. (Probably not too difficult to do.)

We could go down this route, if people are willing to do the work. 3D model building and cell layout.

Any takers?

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In that case; how should I proceed with the base facilities? Should I take into considerartion the fact they are going to be viewed mostly for far off; as in the base view; or that the playe will get close and personal. And at current it seems that they will not fit into the 3D Cell type of model...

Well, at the moment I think they're only going to be used in X-Net and baseview. And to be honest, I suspect symbolic icons would be better in base view than actual models.

That said, the 3D models that have been done COULD be used in the batllescape, using them as a "skin" over the cell structure.

That is, in battlescape, instead of the existing render code that draws quads where cell walls are, it draws a facility model.

However, in the game engine where the logic lives, there's a set of cells that represent the 3D model. I.e. there's cell walls where there are walls in the 3D model, door gaps, etc. Of course, to do this someone's going to have to create the cell layouts that match the 3D models. (Probably not too difficult to do.)

We could go down this route, if people are willing to do the work. 3D model building and cell layout.

Any takers?

Actually thinking about it a bit more, I could probably build a cube mesh for the existing barracks model, and run a battlescape using a set of barracks and cells, so we can see how it looks. Probably have something going by Monday. Agreed?

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if I may, reading back up, I was under the impression that only pops in teh facility would be destroyable, not the outer walls. eg, boxes and racks in teh storage facility, computers, consoles, etc in the lab. Doors between facilities too. IMO it doesn't make sense to have the outer wall destroyable to... dirt. It might also make things easier if all that has to be adjusted are decals on walls
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if I may, reading back up, I was under the impression that only pops in teh facility would be destroyable, not the outer walls. eg, boxes and racks in teh storage facility, computers, consoles, etc in the lab. Doors between facilities too. IMO it doesn't make sense to have the outer wall destroyable to... dirt. It might also make things easier if all that has to be adjusted are decals on walls

Firstly, we can tag the cell layout to say which walls are destructible, and which are not. So there's no real difficultly with having a single mesh (model) that holds all the indestructible stuff. The problem becomes one of how do I handle the props? Like, is the table in the barracks facility a prop? what about the bunks and cabinets? And if I go down that route, does it make sense to treat walls in exactly the same way (because you KNOW people are going to want destroyable walls at some point.)

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Yes, the probs (The table for the barracks) the server and microscope for the lab etc etc are not attached. The table for instance is one peice, but we would only want half of it destroyed though if it was hit like in the game.

 

But the walls even in the alien ships were destuctable with enough power.

 

 

2ndly If you had the game not render peices of the model, wall etc how would that look, because there is nothing on the side of a destroyed wall

Edited by Darkhomb
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