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Auto Cannon, Cannon, Not Very Realistic...


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#1 Monkey Hamer

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 09:00 AM

The Xcom concept of a man portable cannon, while interesting, is not at all plausable.

And since Xenocide is looking to get the Xcom feel, but not copy each deatail word for word, how about this.

Replace the Cannon and Auto Cannons with AGLs (automatic grenade lauchers), or in the cannons case with a M79.

These in reality pack about the same high explosive punch as a light auto cannon (IE 20mm) but are truely man portable and dont recoil enough to rock a light armored vehicle back on its wheels.

Here are some examples.

A replacement for the Auto Cannon, the Type 87 35mm AGL, Chinese Army issue currently. Described by NORINCO (Chinese military manufactuer) as "Mini Infantry Artillery". :rock:

http://www.sinodefen...erved/mg_35.asp

Something like that would be realistic, fill the same function as the auto cannon, and make for a wicked cool looking weapon, the shoulder fired one that is.

And here is a oldy but a goody that would do just fine for the cannon role, the M79, or Blooper as the grunts like to call it.

Posted Image

Those weapons IMO are much more realistic then the "Cannons" and would make better models for the Xenocide weapons.

There are others out there, like this one for the Auto weapon, but I like the Type 87 better, it looks more intimidating. :sly:

The OCSW is not to shabby, but it doesnt come in a shoulder fired version.

Posted Image

http://www.fas.org/m...s/land/ocsw.htm

#2 Tuoppi

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 09:40 AM

I like these things... And your idea.
These should be instantly available and HC should be researched weapon as it needs recoil reduction not yet available. Or then leave it out altogether. AP-rounds for these could be very small HEAP-ammo.

That kind of Grenade-machinegun is usually deployed for far greater accuracy and i've suggested such action before, it could be done when going prone automatically. (If this is implemented of course. Just make accuracy low when standing/crouching and much higher when prone. High TU cost in going prone with such weapon.)

I think that autocannon was meant to be a minigun, but failed due to game engine. Realistic autofire would definitely be needed.

#3 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 10:15 AM

The Xcom concept of a man portable cannon, while interesting, is not at all plausable.

Xenocide will take place 10 years from now. There is a little leeway on the weapons that can be made, as long as its presented in a way that makes sense. For example, future composites and nanofibers will make future weapons much lighter. X-Corps will also have access to weaponry that the army may not see for many years. Heck, it could be the testing grounds for new and kicka$$ weaponry, which might make some modern weapons obsolete.

HEAP (or HEAT?) rounds give very little kick, compared to true AP. The Armor piercing ability comes from a focused explosive inside the shell, which detonates at impact. It also can be designed to fire the same way as the slower Hiex or Incendiary shells. The autocannon and cannon will be using it for the AP rounds. (last time I checked)

I like the Type 87. Only 12Kg, and the muzzle velocity of 200m/s means it could be fired standing up. The recoil from the 35mm shells might hurt alot, but it'll definately hurt the aliens more. Besides, agent "J" (MIB) seemed happy with his cricket. :wink:
Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
Secondly: This organisation takes too much money to run. Weapon shipments will come from Siberia from now on. Costly maintenance is to be cut on all facilities. That includes venting.
Thirdly: We have a new colonel. His name is Facehugger, he loves aliens, and I want you all to treat him with respect.
Lastly: I'll be in my condo on an undisclosed island, if you need me. Good day.

FMIX-The General Stores

#4 Monkey Hamer

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 02:40 PM

Ok, did some more research, and I DID find a currently produced shoulder fired weapon that fires 20mm cannon shells. It might work for the Heavy Cannon concept, but I still like the AGL Type 87 as a replacement for one of the cannon weapons.

This weapon would be more of a sniper weapon as opposed to a fire fight weapon.

Posted Image

http://www.ets-news....usly_aut03.html

NTW-20


This philosophy clearly underpinned Neophytou's design of South Africa's innovative NTW-20 anti-materiel rifle. From concept to the first test firings of this weapon took less than five months. Having worked on helicopter turrets for the South African military, Neophytou was well-versed in solving problems associated with cannon and machine gun recoil. An anti-materiel weapon that destroys high value targets such as parked aircraft, radar installations, fuel storage tanks or even bunkers requires armour piercing or exploding ammunition. Suitable for this task would be 20mm automatic cannon ammunition or the 14.5mm heavy machine gun cartridge.
Available in South Africa were the Denel LIW 20mm GA1 automatic cannon and the Precision Metal Pressings (PMP) 20x82mm cartridge, actually lengthened to 83.5mm to allow for a higher propellant loading, thus raising muzzle velocity to 720 m/s. This cartridge family included nose fuzed HEI and HEI-T base fuzed SAPHEI and two types of practice rounds.

The problem was that 20mm shoulder- fired weapons were considered heavy and cumbersome, not to mention recoil. While technically not designed as a sniper rifle, the NTW-20's competitors virtually all rely on less powerful 12.7mm ammunition. Neophytou says: "The limitations of 12.7mm bullet firing weapons, primarily the extreme difficulty in spotting hits or misses on long range targets, require a different solution." Hence his opting for 20mm. "An anti- materiel weapon has to be able to hit - and destroy - targets, even if fired by relatively unskilled users.

The recoil system in the NTW-20 comprises three separate devices working in concert. An oil-fired hydraulic double acting damper to soak up the initial high velocity recoil; a double acting spring buffer, and finally, an efficient double baffle muzzle brake designed to minimise blast and dust signature. A new larger cast-steel muzzle break further reduces recoil, claims Tony Nephytou. "A major factor with recoil is not the total amount of energy but the rate at which it is generated."

Fitting the three-round magazine horizontally on the left instead of below, allows it to recoil some 70mm into the chassis, along with the firing action and the barrel. All user interface parts - the butt- stock, pistol grip and telescope - remain relatively stationery. He decided on amanual bolt-action on the grounds of simplicity and reliability. 'Seriously simple' is a Neophytou principle. This design philosophy is evident in the breaking down of the NTW-20 system into two 20 kg manpacks. Field assemble s easy, as is maintenance. A simple operation converts the NTW-20 to fire the14.4x114mm calibre - in 30 seconds.


An anti-materiel weapon has to be able to hit - and destroy - targets, even if fired by relatively unskilled users
The characteristics of this round are very different to the 20mm, firing conventional armour piercing bullets at much higher velocities with a corresponding flatter trajectory, it extends the NTW-20's range significantly. It produces roughly twice the energy of the 12.7mm system. Users can tailor the system's configuration before a mission or use mixed teams to combine the benefits of both calibres.
Clients prompted Tony Neophytou to refine his design, mainly in the trigger area and safety. A larger 8x56 telescopic sight gives the NTW-20 much improved performance especially in low light conditions. Quick release ring mounts allow for night vision devices or emergency sights

#5 Monkey Hamer

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 02:56 PM

Here is another CANNON, shoulder fired.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htm

This one has a back blast like a rocket launcher.

#6 Breunor

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 03:05 PM

Just make a 10-years-from-now Barrett .50 sniper rifle into a heavy cannon, and a vulcan minigun works for the autocannon (at least when Jessie Ventura and Arnold Schwarzenneger are firing it!).

#7 Monkey Hamer

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 05:28 PM

I dont see a mini gun as a cannon, and a mini gun is nothing at all like the auto cannon from Xcom.

A mini gun goes RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIPPP!!!!

A xcom auto cannon with HE shells goes...

POO POO POO!!!

BANG BANG BANG!!!

A Type 87 AGL goes...

POO POO POO!!!

BANG BANG BANG!!!

IMO the mini gun would be all wrong to fill the role of the Xcom auto cannon.

#8 Tuoppi

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 05:39 AM

The X-com autocannon was basically heavy cannon with autofire. To me it seems that autocannon was meant to be a minigun (intro movie, weapon pics, clip pics) but it couldn't be made realistic.

IMO make the heavy cannon work as original autocannon and make the other weapon to be somekind of ultralight minigun. This needs decent burst firing though.

#9 Breunor

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 07:43 AM

That's my impression too, the intro movie has the guy shooting a minigun, but I played with those weapons very little, so I don't remember what they looked like. But wasn't the autocannon a multi-barrel weapon that spun? Sounds like a minigun to me...

#10 Monkey Hamer

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 07:55 PM

I only watched the intro movie the firest time I Played Xcom. I was basing my insight on the gameplay of Xcom, which was most definatly devoid of any mini gun like weapon.

Adding a mini gun would not have the feel of Xcom IMO, but it may be cool anyway.

#11 Raven Squad

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 11:58 PM

Cannons are a bit overkill against soft targets. Usually something that fires 20mm and up are primarilly meant to stop light armored vehicles or anti air. So maybe we should replace it with something like m203. Also we could replace minigun with somekind of mg. It would make more sense than minigun. Also it would add little more realism to the game, cos what real world infantry squad does not have atleast one mmg with them.
Yep, thats me who is posting here...

#12 Tuoppi

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 04:32 AM

In this case cannons are not necessessary (sp?) overkill as some aliens are quite tough... Although i don't think they would be practical as they are slow, heavy and everything like that. Much more suitable for stationary defence in open terrain than quick assault team in close range.

What do real infantry squads use to destroy targets too hard for handguns? LAW:s (Or RPG:s, same thing really.) I just noticed i don't like those cannon-kind of weapons at all actually.

IIRC lightest of miniguns weighs about 50kg and with, say 20secs of autofire-ammo means 50kg more, electric source at least 20 kg:s more and recoil pressure is somewhere about 100kg:s continuously. ( 5,56 mm Microgun) Maybe could work with power armor, but definitely not without no matter what hollywood says. (Although realism could be sacrificed to get that "Old painless")

IMO these cannon-types should be replaced with LMG:s, grenade launchers and bazooka-type weapons. Those are really the ones used as heavier infantry weapons.

I think that is what most of you have tried to say around here... :hammer: