Science Reports

[Jesus Escariut]

Me agian ... well i decided to play today so i made some images using work by judge deadd, and info on lasers by deimos. I came up with this image, i also used the the x-corps logo kenshiro did (did i get the name right?) as a water mark on the paper, i have it all in lots of layers so i can change anything you like... just throwin it out here since i cant post anything in the workshop

[Puasonen]

way to go! That's a cool idea!

[Guest drewid]

nice. but you forgot the holes for the ring-binder

[Kenshiro]

C'mon, Drewid! That's their nice medical staff parchment bond letterhead! They're not punching holes in that! Jeesh.

 

Super job, JE.

[Guest Jim69]

Damn thats good, u must be quite talented using PSP ( I assume thats what u used ). Like the coffee cup stain, very nice.

[Deimos]

I'm moving this thread into the workshops as I think it merits further investigation

[Breunor]

Has Mr. Escariut been given permissions to still contribute then? That would be a bummer... I'll toss a note to Stew about that.

[Jesus Escariut]

--[off topic] Thanks--

 

Hey guys, instead of sending out 40 private messages thanking all of you i figured i would just do it like this. I'm VERY honored to be a recruit, and its nice to be able to follow my thread (hugs thread) i would like to thank thoose of you that put in all the good words for my lil promotion , i would like to thank my famil.. wait a sec this isnt a music video award... any way i guess i owe a lot of thanks to deimos on this one, since what he wrote about lasers was my whole inspiration on the idea, as i read i pictured a report thus is why the head scientist earned the name deimos :wink:

 

-- [/off topic] more reports--

 

well if you guys like i can do one of thoose for everything that gets researched, i got all the hard stuff out of the way the past 2 days, (and no they wont all have coffee rings) ... one that im gonna be posting shortly is the initial research on just laser technologyi think u should research plasma technology / laser/ *your pick* before you can say OH! here is how we make a "GIANT LASER" i mean come on, you have to know how lasers work before you can make it. i know that this was done in the first one, but they never did it with plasma or the blasters, that kinda had me confussed yea i know we had the actual gun.. but wouldnt it help to know the properties of what the gun did?.. and even if you guys (am i suppose to say WE now?) dont use it as the research tree then it can still be a cool lil filler.

 

You research a plasma pistol from an alien site, and then you get the science report on Plasma Pistol / Plasma Clip along with a report on Plasma Technology...? i think it would help add some depth to the game. then agian it could just be v1+ stuff.

 

thanks agian, you guys!

[j'ordos]

And maybe Plasma follows the same order as lasers: so you can't jump to heavy plasma immediately, however I don't know if that really makes sense, after all you have those heavy plasma's lying around already...

[miceless]

Nah, i think jumping to heavy is fine, since you have one there, but hes right. A 'Plasma Technology' topic would be good. Youd need to research the idea behind it before you can go into specifics.

 

Oh, and infared is spelt 'infrared' by the way.

[Guest Jim69]

I totally agree, but an alteration if I may? Since once u have the basic idea of Lasers/Plasma, u should be able to research ne1 of them when u have got the basic premise done ( but need the actual weapon 4 any plasma ).

[GreatGold]

OH! here is how we make a "GIANT LASER" i mean come on, you have to know how lasers work before you can make it. i know that this was done in the first one, but they never did it with plasma or the blasters, that kinda had me confussed yea i know we had the actual gun..

I'm going to disagree here. It makes sense to have lasers progressing from "Laser Concept" --> "Laser Pistol" --> "Laser Rifle" --> "Heavy Laser" because we are creating them from scratch. There is nothing to reverse engineer, so it makes sense that you need to take steps. However, for Plasma weapons, they are all already there and all the scientists do is reverse engineer them. So I don't think researching them in any order would make a difference. Perhaps the only way to prevent people from going right to Heavy Plasma is a game-play isse - just dont let the aliens use them for a while so that all you can research is Pistol and Rifle. But thats up to others...

 

So, I'm still a little confused about this screen though. Would that be what you get after researching a item? If so, what happened to the X-Net? I thought you would research a topic, and then see the X-Net entry. If this screen is what we would use instead, I feel it may be a little "old-fashioned" in feel. I mean, everything is computerized, so this would go against that... Now, if that poped up, and then the next screen brought you to the entry in the X-Net, I think that would make a bit more sense. So what exactly is the plan?

 

Nice screen by the way ,

Gold

[miceless]

Nah, i still think that with laser you should have to work your way up. Its different with plasma as you have one in front of you.

[red knight]

The idea of not researching Heavy if you didnt research Pistol is pretty well, if you insist on... You start a research and found out that your knowledge of Plasma Technology is not enough and you spend time researching something that took nothing in return . Someone told me once to grab as much as I can chew, nothing more than that... In science terms, start simple then make it as complex as you want.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[Jesus Escariut]

okay.. here was what i was going for. not replacing the xnet, i want this to be a little bit extra, i mean with xnet you get a lot of info about the weapon, but i want more, i wanna know WHY.. WHY DOES IT WORK!... not just "its a laser it kills its accuracy is 43, damage is 80, tu % is 30" this you know what. im just gonna make a example so gimme a few mins while i work this up.

 

also i dont think u have to go in order with plasma, i just think u need to still know the basics of it before you can recreate it, so even if they research a heavy plasma it auto researches plasma technology, and when the research is done, you get 2 science reports and just the one xnet report for the heavy plasma

[j'ordos]

As far as I know the Xnet IS going to display a lot of info... Maybe these forms could be used in the manual? I think it would look good in there.

[Breunor]

My impression of this concept is that you see it once a research is completed. The X-Net UI would hold what we've already discussed, so this could either have the detailed text portion as well, or seperate data could be used here. IMO, this idea should show the detailed text, then that same text is used within the already discussed UI for the X-Net. JE's version is exactly what would come across the desk of the commander once research was finished. Later, that data would be entered into a databse which the X-Net represents. Whether these 2 things use the same data, or similarbut different data is another question here. I think this dossier should have the "how will this help save our planet ASAP" kind of data, and that could be expanded on in the detailed X-Net data. Imagine a scientist comes to the commander and starts rattling off all these figures for capacitance and the like, the boss holds his hand up to shut the other up and asks, 'But will it drop a muton?' That kind of report is what this should contain. Edited July 19, 2003 by Breunor

[Jesus Escariut]

breunor hit the nail on the head , thats what i was trying to get at. all i need is some creative text to throw in, in later parts of the game when you get your lil paws on them there aliens, their could be test done on aliens even "lasers have proven ineffective on mutons" stuff like that

[GreatGold]

but i want more, i wanna know WHY.. WHY DOES IT WORK!... not just "its a laser it kills its accuracy is 43, damage is 80, tu % is 30" this you know what. im just gonna make a example so gimme a few mins while i work this up.

Hehe, careful what you wish for! Have you seen the CTD Asset Page yet? If not, I suggest you take a look...

 

I actually like the idea of you getting something like this when research is complete, but I also think there should be a button that directly links this to the X-Net, should the player want to go there. So I guess there should be three buttons on the bottom: "Assign New Research", "X-Net Database" and "Exit".

 

An interesting idea...

Gold

 

Gold

[Guest Jim69]

I'm going to disagree here.  It makes sense to have lasers progressing from "Laser Concept" --> "Laser Pistol" --> "Laser Rifle" --> "Heavy Laser" because we are creating them from scratch.  There is nothing to reverse engineer, so it makes sense that you need to take steps.

Why? They are all variants on the same idea. 4 Instance, in ballistics the Rifle came WAY b4 the pistol. They all work on the same principle, if anything it is harder to create something on a smaller scale than anything. Think back thru history. Was the first computer really small, and then they built up? No. The first computer filled a room. I never understood why u had to research lasers in this way as it simply wouldn't happen like that. Unless it is a gameplay issue, in which case the plasma's should be done that way as well.

 

I just think 1 or the other, not a seperate way 4 both lasers and plasma. There isn't a legitimate reason IMO.

[GreatGold]

Think back thru history. Was the first computer really small, and then they built up? No. The first computer filled a room.

True, but a small computer is better than a larger one. Just like a Laser Rifle is better than a Laser Pistol. So the advancement for computers was making them smaller, the advancement for lasers is the opposite - making them larger. To start with a heavy laser makes no sense I think, as it would mean that you have such a mastery of laser tech that you not only managed to create a laser, but a laser that does serious dmage while also small enough to be man-mobile. Realistically, first you make a laser, and as you get better with them they become stronger (same as a computer), and as they become stronger, they become more advantagious if larger (same as a computer is more advantageuous when small).

 

In eithercase, I think the system works as-is, and should not be changed.

 

Make sense?

Gold

[j'ordos]

Maybe first thing to research would be a heavy laser with the power of a pistol...

[Guest Jim69]

I understand what ure saying, I may be wrong in the way they work. Here is the reason I feel the way I do:

 

Lasers work by a light shining thru something ( C02 usually ) and the resulting light can be of different spectrums depending on the material used. The result thru C02 is a spectrum ( I can't remember what 1 ) which if powerfull enough can cut thru objects, the softer the easier 2 cut. The technology is a CO2 cannister with a high power light shined thru it in a burst, and that causes the damage.

 

The smaller the power of the light is determins the smaller the power of the beam, which is why the bigger weapons are needed for the more powerful light and battery source.

 

If this is how they work then why not skip straight 2 heavy? It's just a bigger power source and CO2 chamber than the other variants, so I don't c a problem. If this isn't how they work then I guess I have to rethink.

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

Back to the original topic (I think there's at least two or three 'how lasers work' threads running around), I like GG's take on this.

 

Use this as a memo-type thing that pops up when the research is complete. Have it contain a brief description of the topic, and a list of new lines of research that have opened up. Then at the bottom have a couple of links: the full x-net report (the equivalent of the orginal 'View Report' option), assign new research topic, and cancel out to the main screen.

 

-The Captain

[red knight]

Jim the point is, how you are going to power them??? You could "theoretically" create a huge laser that would banish the earth into oblivion. However, how are you going to cool down the mechanism or even power it?... Laser Pistols are like that cause you dont have better power devices, but rifles and heavy impose other problems like heat dissipation or other unknown issues.

 

Going from small guns to big guns have more than sense... Think now arround the weapons world. At the beginning they were bulky and have lots of power, did you ask yourself why?

 

First reliability, how would you know that it wouldn jam in the next shot? now they are far reliable so you would have to kill as much people as posible with only 1 shot... Second accuracy, suppose that you need to kill someone pretty far, you need a big blast cause you cannot put a bullet in his head (like they do now with sniper rifles)... If you think even the tactics had changed because of weapons improvements. It has been ages since weapons are not bulky as they were in the 18th century, they are now functionally wise... So you cannot follow the same model of development as in the 18th century...

 

Greeting

Red Knight

[Kenshiro]

If real life is at all a model, heavy, vehicle mounted lasers (yes, the destructive kind) have already been developed, handheld "long gun" versions are now in development, with pistols in the 30-50 years planning range.

 

I know this because a friend of mine from ROTC is working on them at an Air Force Base somewhere and also because the parts I mentioned above have been stories in Popular Science.

 

My personal opinion is that you should have to develop the technology first, then you should be able to branch into researching whichever form of the weaponry you like. I think we could shift the gameplay balance of this into the cost of manufacturing.

 

And I definitely like Bruenor's take on where the coffee-stained reports go. They're executive summaries of discoveries and a lot more elegant than just a plain old "research complete, view report" pop up. I also agree with Greatgold on adding the buttons - maybe put an X-Net styled frame around it with the buttons below, and throw the memo in the main part of the window.

[Guest Jim69]

Back on topic, I'll find a laser working topic if I can be arsed to carry on discussing, I prob won't tho as I don't think I have a total grasp on how the lasers are gonna work yet

 

Yeah, the research complete screen would look cool as a kinda file that has just landed on ur desk straight from the scientists, sorta then they update to the X-Net as official protocol, thats how I'd imagine it would happen in real life I guess.

[Breunor]

I agree that the topic of research order should be another thread, I have a thought about it so I'll start a new thread (if I don't find one first).

[Jesus Escariut]

I also agree with Greatgold on adding the buttons - maybe put an X-Net styled frame around it with the buttons below, and throw the memo in the main part of the window.

okay, sorry i didnt get that image up but when people kidnap me and tell me hey your goin dancin and drinkin tonight... its kinda hard to argue.. espcially with the opposite sex.

 

but thats what i was gonna make an example of, but since i just got back home and its... 6:16am.. well.. yea.. im gonna shower then sleep, so when i wake up around noon i get right on that demo. then i guess ill put a poll up to see if this is gonna get the green light.

[Deimos]

http://science.howstuffworks.com/laser.htm

Is quite a comprehensive but easy to understand description of how lasers work. Funnily enough I did quite a bit of research on the net when I wrote up the stuff I did for the laser entry.

[Jesus Escariut]

okay here is ROUGH take on what it would do, when you complete research (just showin how i thought it would work, research gets done and u get a document fresh from the researchers, while you read it your xnet is being updated :wink:

[mikker]

I.......don't think that it will blend into the slightly futeristic look of Xenocide.....that one looks more like some information on a detectectives desk in the late 80's.

[Guest Jim69]

, now I see it I agree. Maybe a completly new screen with an animation of a folder opening ( look at the way RE opened doors 2 c what I mean ) and this is what is inside would work. The way it looks there does sorta disrupt the flow of the screens.

[Jesus Escariut]

i like jims idea a lot

Maybe a completly new screen with an animation of a folder opening

 

i cant do animation for crap though but if some one can and is willing to i think it would look great, maybe for a v1+ you could have a setup lik alien legacy where you have a office and officers, so when you sit at your super desk the control screens pop up, and laying on the desk is a folder ?

[Guest Jim69]

Hmm, sounds a bit of overkill, I could prob do the folder tho. I never tried animating but I recon I could learn something like that, it sounds quite simple. Then so do a LOT of things till u try it

[Jesus Escariut]

okay, i realize the other one didnt flow to well

how bout sumthin like this but with a lil animation?

use your imagination d4mn it :wink:

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

Getting into animations, and changing the layout of the baseview is getting waaay beyond this topic, much less v1.

 

I do like the general idea though, but I agree that the example shown it looks out of place. Can anyone suggest a variant or two that might clash less?

 

Maybe style it as an email rather than a physical report.

 

-The Captain

Edited July 21, 2003 by Cpt. Boxershorts

[Deimos]

I agree with Cpt.Boxershorts. Going outside the geoscape is going to add another layer of abstraction to the player's experience, which isn't a good thing. These reports can come up in a seperate pop up page rather than a window when the research is completed.

As it is at the moment the player is taken to the ufopeadia entry which is all well and good but these reports could add another layer to the experience, as has been said before. Sort of a memo type report handed over the commanders desk.

 

How about trying an 800x600 page with a wood and leather desk texture lit by a lamp with a cigar burning in an ashtray with the report lay open in the middle of the table, with other various paperwork around and maybe a keyboard or mouse in view? It'd be better than taking the player actually out of geoscape.

[Jesus Escariut]

How about trying an 800x600 page with a wood and leather desk texture lit by a lamp with a cigar burning in an ashtray with the report lay open in the middle of the table, with other various paperwork around and maybe a keyboard or mouse in view? It'd be better than taking the player actually out of geoscape.

 

okay this is another good idea... but what kind of cigar? im thinkin a cohiba or a onyx

[Jesus Escariut]

okay i think the look of this one is a little bit better then the last image... *sorry didnt make the cigar, mouse, keyboard, lamp... wanted to get this up quick*

[Breunor]

Yes, that type of display would work better IMO. As to when it appears, perhaps when research completes, you get a small dialog saying so, with 2 buttons. One takes you to the research screen to assign new stuff, the second button takes you to the desk to read the detailed reports of all research to date. This desk is in line with the looks of the operatives database a little, I wonder if it could be tied in more with that look/feel/UI? IMO the desk is too different from everything else in the game to mesh right, but I like it too. Maybe this desk could be made more futuristic, something like polished, gun-blue steel? Maybe the main interface could be suggested by a flat panel display off to one side that shows just enough screen at an angle that you know what it is. Clicking it would take you back to the geoscape. Maybe there are a couple organizers holding operative data in one and the science reports in another. The operative reports would be the original stats/data on recruits, but could also just hold reports on soldiers who have dies as well. That might work better. Each op that dies has their data moved there, so it's not clogging up the online database perhaps.

[GreatGold]

Also, should it be in 3D?

 

Gold

[Guest drewid]

prolly some bits in 2d some bits in 3d.

 

If the paper were 3d you'ld have to do a 3d text routine, plotting text in worldspace. Either that to plot text to a texture.

also you -might- get z-clipping problems, depending on the size of the scene and depth of camera planes. (probably wouldn't be a problem with this scene actually thinking about it.)

 

might be better to do the text as a 2D overlay which lines up with the background.

 

hmmmmmmm

[red knight]

Just a quick question, what is this a XNet replacement??? If it is not where it goes?, cause we are making everything looks digital (as the look and feel of the XNet and Geoscape is done as a computer generated image from a terminal)...

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

My understanding is that it is NOT an X-Net replacement. It is, if we use it, just a new way of saying "Research Complete". From this screen you could then go directly to the X-Net, Assign New Research, or Exit to Geoscape.

 

So basically, it's just a more creative "Research Complete" screen. Persoanlly, I think if we make it more high-tech looking, it will add a nice flair.

 

Gold

[Jesus Escariut]

hey guys, im not a 3d guy , so i was wondering is some one could play with this idea in 3d and give some examples , if you need the psds of anything ive shown just let me know. i agree about the text should be texture/2d since z-clipping has been known to make the best games look like crap.

 

ta ta :wink:

-paul