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Two Guns Or One, Which Is Better


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#1 JWH

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 07:47 AM

I'm a XCOM 1 veteran who recently started Apocalypse. I'm wondering when equipping my soldiers to fight in real timewether should I use one or two guns.

You see, I know that for the bigger weapons which require two hands that you wil suffer an accuracy bonus if you try to shoot with just one hand. Which means that i can end up wasting ammo which is relatiely scarce in the early game. On the other hand if I use two weapons it double my rate of fire ( I think ) and should double my chances of hitting the enemy.

In your expereince fellow apocalypse players which should I go for.
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#2 j'ordos

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 09:35 AM

well, two Marsec M4000 machineguns double your rate of fire (which is quite high to start with), and since the accuracy is low anyway...
Only a shame it's a crappy gun but with this weapon it's quantity that matters, not quality, just put them on autofire and close your eyes ^_^
Two stungrapples also work quite well
(just be sure to play it real-time then) :hammer:
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#3 BurnThemALL

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 06:19 PM

I came to the conclusion that the Marsec M4000 is wasting far too much ammo when used in both hands...

Only things I would recommend to use in both hands are the Plasma rifle and the Disruptor rifle, nice fire rate and it does quite some damage. :beer:

Stun Grapplers are also nice in two hands. Later maybe Toxi Guns if you have produced enough Toxi ammo.

Let us know your experiences about this issue, please. :)

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Edited by BurnThemALL, 06 July 2003 - 06:20 PM.

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#4 j'ordos

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 06:24 PM

I came to the conclusion that the Marsec M4000 is wasting far too much ammo when used in both hands...

True, but I buy plenty of it :D

Only things I would recommend to use in both hands are the Plasma rifle and the Disruptor rifle, nice fire rate and it does quite some damage

Does work very well indeed, but since you don't have them at the start I left them out. :Blush:
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#5 Mark0

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 07:26 AM

2 toxin are great( IMO) the damage it does is too powerfull.



i used to use 2 disruptors when i didnt have toxins. You only see pink shots flying everywhere from everyone.
1 thing i wanna test. while the enemy is udnerfire. does he take cover or he stays open. :unsure:

#6 BurnThemALL

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 03:40 PM

1 thing i wanna test. while the enemy is udnerfire. does he take cover or he stays open. :unsure:

I think they don't cover. However, I'm sure the aliens are soiling their pants when you take em under fire! :naughty: :crazy: :psychosanta: :beer:

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#7 j'ordos

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 04:09 PM

Sometimes they seem to be running away, but after a couple of squares they remember they are not supposed to run away and turn back :blink: Oh well, all the more time for my soldiers to put 'em down :uzzi2:
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#8 JWH

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 05:04 PM

Thanks for the comments guys. I'm going to try your suggestions.

A couple of questions though.
(a) How do I determine if a weapon is a one handed or a two handed. So far I've been assuming that it' s a matter of size and name. e.g the plasma gun, law pistol, toxigun and disruptor guns all look small, so I assume that they are one handed weapons.

On the other hand the laser sniper gun, Devatator Cannon, autocannon and M4000 Machine gun all look big so I would believe that they are two handed.

(B) Now if the above is true then I should suffer no accuracy penalty when using the plasma gun, law pistol, toxigun and disruptor gun. So it makes lots of sense to use them two handed.(In fact I already do this). But in the case of the bigger weapons( which suffer an accuracy penalty when used one handed) I'd like to know if the benefits of using two weapons and doubling the fire rate outweigh the disadvantages of decreased accuracy.
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#9 j'ordos

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 05:07 PM

(a) How do I determine if a weapon is a one handed or a two handed.  So far I've been assuming that it' s a matter of size and name.  e.g the plasma gun, law pistol, toxigun and disruptor guns all look small, so I assume that they are one handed weapons.

On the other hand the laser sniper gun, Devatator Cannon, autocannon and M4000 Machine gun all look big so I would believe that they are two handed.

Welcome to the club! That's how I tried to figure it out, as I guess most will have.
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#10 BurnThemALL

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 05:54 PM

I also did it like you, just take someting in the other hand while using the weapon in question, if there is an accuracy loss, it's two-handed. :idea: :wave:
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#11 Extralucas

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 12:17 PM

I was using two weapons mostly (undependent is it one or two handed), but now Im not sure was it a good Idea. Now I will try use weapons way they are suposed to.
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#12 BurnThemALL

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 05:23 PM

In later stages of the game you don't get accuracy loss if you take as example the cloaking device in the other hand when you use a two-handed weapon like my IN Auto Cannon. It's a matter of experience of your soldier. Try it, if no loss... Take two things with you. :beer:
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#13 Extralucas

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 11:32 AM

Toxigun is shoting so fast that you even don't need two of 'em if you wanna make 'toxin rain'.
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#14 Jonaleth Irenicus

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 02:35 PM

Before getting personal cloaking device, two toxiguns for everybody rules (you must have an ARMY of engineers though).

Set all of them to autofire mode, you rain the place with toxins, nothing remains alive.

I have raided Cult of Sirius using double toxiguns.
Passenger ship terror site, first turn, I open the door of my Triton, there is a Tasoth up on the next floor (his back is facing the screen so I don't know what weapon he has).

One of my guys fire at him, hit, he reaction fires with Thermal Shock Launcher. The whole crew stunned. Mission over.

#15 NKF

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 11:10 PM

You know, dual toxiguns on full auto seem a bit wasteful.

No no, don't get me wrong, it's an overly powerful combination. What I mean is you're wasting the offhand weapon's rate of fire. You see with dual toxiguns on auto, the off-hand toxigun rarely gets a chance to shoot because the toxigun itself already has an insane rate of fire. So on auto, the main hand gets off so many shots that the offhand toxigun rarely gets a chance.

Better yet, dual snap toxiguns would provide similar results but with better accuracy (which is irrelevant if you've got really high accuracy). You can also go with dual aimed toxiguns. It's slower, but you cannot argue with the increase in accuracy. There's no right or wrong way to do it really.

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Edited by NKF, 03 March 2004 - 11:11 PM.

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#16 Paladin

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 12:02 PM

I was also wondering this "one or two handed" question ever since the days of XCOM1... :blink:
Is there any where someone checked the actual numbers?
I used to have my boys carry a heavy weapon in one hand and a pistol/grenade/sensor in the other... Does it affect aim as much?
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#17 Puasonen

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 01:53 PM

In all x-com games giving weapons to both hands reduces accuracy (except for pistol weapons) In x-com 1 and 2 it was totally useless to give 2 weapons for one soldier, especially 2 SAME weapons. In x-com 3 apocalypse it's a MUST to give 2 weapons to every soldier. 2 disruptor pistols or 2 toxiguns or 2 m4000 mgs are great!! I don't know the actual numbers how much it reduces accuracy though. NKF would know if he sees this topic.
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#18 j'ordos

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 02:06 PM

in xcom3 you can easily see what it does to your accuracy, on the small bar beneath the weapon icon in both hands.
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#19 RustedSoul

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 02:29 PM

you can boost accuracy up by going prone and switching to snap shot ect..

also i suspect that dual weapons boost the accuracy skill faster, i'm not sure on this one, i've never really taken the time to study the game mechanics.

#20 NKF

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 12:00 AM

Well, if Apocalypse awards experience the same way it is handed out in the original games: the more you hit, the better you get. So dual full auto M4000's firing hundreds of bullets hitting everything definitely helps. ;)

A laser sniper rifle might be able to hit more often per shot, but you can't get as many shots in, even if you use dual laser sniper rifles and risk using auto.

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#21 Tiberius_51

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 10:44 AM

How effective are toxiguns against humans? Never tried them on a raid since I usually just use devastator cannons thanks to unlimited ammo.

#22 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 02:43 PM

It says in the ApocPaedia that toxiguns are not made to kill people. It's right, too. It can take a good 10 or 20 or more hits to kill an unarmored human with a toxigun. But late in the game, you get to take the shields they carry.


I wonder... does anyone know which toxin is the most effective against people?
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#23 NKF

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 12:38 AM

C, naturally. But why waste Toxin C when stun gas is even more effective? Psionics are good too.

Toxin gas from AG grenades and rockets cannot hurt humans. Well, are being hurt, if you note that constant cracking sound you hear while you're standing in the gas, but no damage is done.

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#24 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:59 AM

Naturally? Each toxin is a different weapon type. Toxin A may be more effective than toxin C, since A is more of a general poison, and C is a very well designed anti-alien poison.
Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
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#25 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 03:37 PM

Well, I've done a few tests on the different toxins. I guess it's true that toxin C is the best. Against an unarmored X-COM unit with 98 health, I got:

Toxin A - 8/8/8 Hits to kill
Toxin B - 6/6/6 Hits
Toxin C - 5/5 Hits

I then decided to shoot a guy with Disruptor armor. I unloaded 64 bullets into him at point blank range. (a full turn of full auto) Only the helmet was ever hit. This agent had 65 health.

Toxin A - No damage at all to the armor
Toxin B - 54/75 Helmet armor
Toxin C - Complete destruction of the helmet, and just barely killed the unit (With all 64 hits)

All the shots were point blank, and were counted as head shots. You won't get so lucky against hostiles. Hostile units are also armored, so they can protect against many toxigun hits before getting hurt.

... Ah nuts. I guess Toxin C is the best at killing people. Not only does the shot hit the armor harder, it's also more toxic to humans, despite being made to kill aliens. But for some reason, the "faster and harder hitting" shot of toxin C can still go through alien shields.
Posted Image Haha! I'm now the Supreme Commander of X-COM. Time to kiss Earth goodbye.

My first order of business: Homeless people make cheap rookies, and are great at opening UFO doors. Heck, they're so cheap, I'm going to replace all personel with them!
Secondly: This organisation takes too much money to run. Weapon shipments will come from Siberia from now on. Costly maintenance is to be cut on all facilities. That includes venting.
Thirdly: We have a new colonel. His name is Facehugger, he loves aliens, and I want you all to treat him with respect.
Lastly: I'll be in my condo on an undisclosed island, if you need me. Good day.

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#26 NKF

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 03:46 PM

Not really. They may be different weapon types, but they are the same except for their damage levels.

But just to make sure, I ran a test via Russian Roulette with two soldiers with toxin B and C and 100 health each. No body armour. Toxin is virtually useless against armour, although every so often C would get 1 point of damage. Thank goodness only X-Com units wear armour. If aliens wore armour, the toxigun would be a lost cause.

Toxin-A is way outclassed by B or C against aliens or human. That's definite.

Against humans Toxin B and C are almost identical, but C consistently kills the other party more often than B. The damage dealt is roughly the same. But taking into account that these damage levels are random, C can still score higher damage levels than B. Either type can cause critical wounds at any time.

Either way, you have to almost spend an entire clip for one human enemy. Definitely not worth it just to collect shields - considering how erratic the bullet spread of a toxigun is, even with 98 accuracy and even if you're only a few tiles away from the target. Stun gas and psionics are still the cheaper methods to collect shields.

Me, I just wipe out the alien fleet every week and let my workshops steadily churn out shields and hybrid ships for cash. It's a lazier method, but it works to everyone's benefit except the aliens. :)

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Edited by NKF, 16 July 2004 - 03:50 PM.

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#27 Tsereve

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 03:17 PM

Thank goodness only X-Com units wear armour. If aliens wore armour, the toxigun would be a lost cause.

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Aliens have armor, they just don't "wear" it--not in the typical sense of the word. Their armor (like almost everything else) is biological. We don't say gators wear armor, but their skin is still a lot tougher than ours'. The thing with the aliens' armor, though, is toxiguns were designed to combat alien DNA. Since their bio-armor contains their DNA, alien armor is just so much skin to the toxigun.
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