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Indirect Fires


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#1 Penta

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Posted 06 March 2005 - 08:55 PM

Yes, this idea just came to me.

In modern militaries, the most powerful guy in the infantry platoon is not the weapons squad that carries the machine guns.

The most powerful guy in the squad is the radioman.

Why?

Because the radioman also acts as a forward observer, directing indirect fires such as mortars, artillery, or air support.

With that in mind, thinking of games such as Jagged Alliance 2 as well (I wish we'd see a JA3...), the idea comes to mind.

Where are the mortars for X-Corps?

#2 tzuchan

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Posted 06 March 2005 - 10:43 PM

While X-corps is most definately fighting a war, most of the battle take place on a small squad tatics scale, meaning that you have squads fighting in a relatively confined area that to any artillary from outside the combat zone, the both sides would be almost on top of each other. There is also the fact that artillary is usually rather destructive, and most missions that X-Corps undergoes has the mission objective of retrieving alien tech... Alien tech doesn't work too good after it's been blasted to pieces right?

Now, if X-Corps was fighting a larger scale battle, then it would be fun to implement artillary... A good example of this would be PowerDOLLs by Kogado... Unfortunately, this game is by a japanese company, and only the first of the series was ever translated into english by Megatech...

*Edit* Also, IIRC, this subject has been extensively discussed before in the Labs...

Edited by tzuchan, 06 March 2005 - 10:45 PM.

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#3 Penta

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Posted 06 March 2005 - 11:09 PM

Rats.:-(

#4 Robo Dojo 58

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 06:13 AM

I'll have to agree with tzuchan. When the radio man and the alien are in the same building, it's a little hard to aim an airstrike. :P From all the videos on airstrikes I've seen, most of them happen when the radio guy is at least a hundred yards away from the hotzone. That's a far cry from the 20-30 yards you'll be seeing for long range combat.

Most of these close encounter fights are over in a matter of minutes. Because of the power of alien tech, cover is relatively useless, so you have to get them before they get you. The attacks are very high paced, and you could never get artillery set up before then. Remember that in a war zone, there is always a helicopter or bomber in the air, or on hot-standby, ready to drop bombs where they're required. X-Corps doesn't have that kind of luxury, and it certainly doesn't have that kind of money.

Also, X-Corps has to keep itself mostly secret. If it starts moving artillery around, and calling airstrikes on seemingly random locations, EVERYONE is going to be suspicious, especially the funding nations. Can YOU explain to the press why you called an airstrike on 343 Wallaby way, Springfield, AZ, US? :rolleyes:
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#5 Tuoppi

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 06:31 AM

Airstrikes and artillery are overkill, but i would like to have light mortars or similar thingies to support troops before blaster launcher appears. Check Here or Here for specks and more info.

#6 Snakeman

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 09:33 AM

The only way I'd want to see air support as the original poster described is if it was the last possible thing open to you if you were losing. Other factors brought up against it is as Robo sited and that's when there's close quarters fighting in buildings as opposed to fighting on open terrain.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea very much of at least having a mortar system that make senses for the small size of the maps. Something akin to what we saw soldiers using in Vietnam, a little tube that stands upright on the ground with a coupla guys feeding shells into it.

Maybe something that basic could be used prior to shoulder mounted rockets or heavy cannon. I like the thought that there's a slightly more indescriminate explosive in use early on. Considering that unless its coordinated right (every time the enemy moves, you have to alter the trajectory of the mortar setup every time), expect some sloppy results.

Anyway, its hard for me to see these being terribly useful on maps other than open terrain. The kind with buildings an such, or even with a large UFO dominating the map seem to negate its use much.

With air strikes, I was pondering its use in another thread, but thinking along the lines that you'd only have X sorties per battlescape (somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 or 2) and that their aim is questionable without the proper targetting gear. To use it means you'd sacrifice salvage quanitity, but then by this point if your forced to use it, you've probably already gotten your nose bloodied severely and are attempting to vacate the LZ so that's not something your thinking about as a top priority necessarily.

One final thought. Perhaps this ability of calling in an airstrike - reserving it as your last chance sort of affair - could be tied directly to the highest ranking soldier on the mission (thinking that he'd have the authority and the radio). In other words, lose him, and you lose that possibility during the mission.

I guess I'm sort of torn on this issue, it is after all a great deal of firepower to be able to bring to bear. To use it means a lot of potential risks, some already sited such as: Loss of men, loss of salvage, loss of points, increased awareness by the public of X-COM, superflous civlian deaths, decreased funding (if you've obliterated many civilian buildings/property), and a decrease in friendliness towards you by governments.

You can probably see why I'm torn on the issue, because it should lead to other ramifications due to the fact you start out anyway, as a secret organiztion, yet admittedly it does seem to open up different ways to play in terms of the world view of you. Intriquing, yes. A program nightmare, probably :)

#7 Shinzon

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 03:20 PM

i think there is already something like a tank/mortar the hwp... arey they sopposed to be light tanks? or what? all well have to do is add a proper attachment to one (rockets) and there you go something along the lines of a mortar unit...

Though i would like the option of bombing the area... an avenger could just overload its core... and boom but it will kill everything reducing funding from nations as well as no salavage whats so ever...

#8 Snakeman

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 09:20 PM

Yea I could certainly settle for a self destruct of the transport if nothing else. Figuring that you might want to contain the aliens from that particular skirmish if they overwelmed your people. Then all that's required is to have at least one man alive who can get back to the ship to activate it.

I think, despite the points you lose, the battle could still be viewed as a technical win, provided the self destruct was enough to vaporize the alien opposition.

#9 NKF

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 10:14 PM

You know, you could just have the aircraft (assuming its armed) hover over the area and just blast away at selected targets with the craft weapons. I imagine the plasma cannons in the original game would vapourise any enemy it attacks. Or if it has rockets, drop them like cluster bombs over a small area. These attacks would have to be limited to some degree, or else players would use it as the 'easy' solution out of combat. Perhaps even make air-strikes as part of any easter eggs discussed to reward the player for actually locating it.

---

How about something simple. A slingshot.

Yes, a sling shot. As in that Y shaped stick thingy with an elastic band between the prongs. It sounds incredibly elementary, but consider the usefulness.

It could double as a grenade launcher. Just prime grenade to whatever, load it into the slingshot and launch away.

You could probably even use it as a means for launching any small object in an arc (or straight line depending how much force was applied) over a medium distance. With the possibility of damaging the item, of course. You can't just launch stuff and expect it not to shatter if it strikes a hard surface at considerale speed.

But I guess a slingshot just isn't 'cool' enough. Heh, a slingshot attachment for a highly advanced rifle. Silly.

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Edited by NKF, 07 March 2005 - 10:16 PM.

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#10 Penta

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 10:31 PM

Rifle grenades would be cool. As would things like the M203.

#11 sir_schwick

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:46 PM

I do agree that once you are in close contact, airstrikes of any precision could not be useful considering movement and scale. However pre-dust down bombardment of some kinds could be useful and feasible considering your delivery by aircraft:

1) Smoke Package - This delivers hundreds of smoke delivering canisters over and around the combat zone. These canisters deliver an ultra-thick cloud up to around a hundred feet high. Seems a bit conspicuous, but could easily be attirbuted to any 'black' military operation outside X-CORPS. System deploys before landing so that maximum coverage and density is reached on landing. High coverage and density last until turn 5 or 6. Medium lasts until turn 12 and LIght lasts until turn 20. After that it spreads thin quickly and by turn 25 eveyrthing is normal.

2) Stun Gas - This gas is not useful on aliens because of their environmental equipment(come on, they would plan for humans NBC preferences). However it safely keeps humans unconcious for approximately one hour. Perfect for terror sites or urban operations and once again, this could be considered a 'military exercise'.

3) Proximity Mines - These mines are distributed by many payloads on many delivery systems. They spread over the environment and spread shrapnel-like death to all who pass over them(potential for civlian hurting). When you land you automatically know where they landed. More advanced versions come whenever you can emulate alien 'spider mines'.

4) Sensor Packets - Lots of little sensor packets(requires Spider Mines -> Spider Sensors) are distributed around the battlefield. They will relay movement and map conditions back to your guys.

5) Targeted Strike Against Craft- You can do a pre-landing strike against the UFO on the ground. This is designed to keep it from leaving and is more likely to kill aliens inside craft.

6) Targeted Strike Against Aliens - You launch a pre-landing strike by system against personnell. Attacks go around the landed UFO, or use weapons that will not significantly damage UFO.

And of course you can use these systems simeoultaneously as well. For a terror site you might send in smoke and gas, so few people see the aliens and they are knocked out before they do. Use a combination of smoke, sensor packets, prox mines, and strikes against ship for that battleship. Be creative and remember that aliens will do the same, only more destrutive because they are not funded by countries.

#12 mj_12commando

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 04:06 AM

What about precision munitions? Say, small scale air support with helicopter gunships using antitank missiles or something.

Of course, they could be shot down, which means that you'd be forking out the serious amounts of cash needed to replace a shot down Longbow.

#13 T-1

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 05:55 AM

I think a patrolling helicopter with equipped with a minigun or a laser cannon would be effective and precise, but you wouldn't really need a radioman for that.

#14 Shinzon

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 12:42 PM

In that case, cant aliens use something similar against X-corps?

Im sure aliens are capable of bringing some heavy fire support of their own... This could make good final battles though, some will be huge and you will possobly feel like you're actualy fighting a war, not raid/run operations...

Edited by Shinzon, 02 April 2005 - 12:42 PM.


#15 mj_12commando

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 02:20 PM

In that case, cant aliens use something similar against X-corps?

Im sure aliens are capable of bringing some heavy fire support of their own... This could make good final battles though, some will be huge and you will possobly feel like you're actualy fighting a war, not raid/run operations...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


heck yes.

Then again, you'd probably need a warning like "INCOMING AIRSTRIKE!" so you could duck and cover.

#16 GARAK

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:44 PM

Intreresting ideas here. If the craft weapons are on a turret of some kind, then they should be useable as long as someone is inside the craft to aim it. Also, there could be a mortar tank or something for long range support. I agree though that if xcorp has them, the aliens should too. They're not stupid.

Edit: It would be cool if the aliens could fire from space, ion cannon style or something.

Edited by GARAK, 09 May 2005 - 02:46 PM.