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#1 mikker

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 12:33 PM

Now, if i decided to use auto-fire, i would definetly not wait till the bullet hit, before i shoot another shot.

Lets say i use a heavy plasma. I shoot a beam, and while the beam is, lets say, 1/2 square away, another beam will exit, and same with nr. 3. Otherwise, it will just be 3 snapshots.

Anyone agree?

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#2 LordT

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 01:01 PM

No, because you want to have full control/view of where your shots go. If you just spray you have no idea where the shots went, if they hit a wall, another alien or anything else.

Though it CAN feel tedious I think it's good to leave it that way.
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#3 warhamster

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 02:07 PM

Yeah, it'd be a bit of a hassle to follow where your shots landed. But I can imagine some ways we can get that in.

Soldier shoots 1-2-3.

Camera switches to alien. miss 1-2-3. Basically just an adjustment on how your showing events, i guess.

#4 mikker

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:07 PM

hmmm......yes....


...we can also make the shots go so fast, that you wont notice...

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#5 Raven Squad

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 04:26 PM

I like the old system. Tho it isnt very realistic it adds little more feeling to the game. It is exciting when u have to see if that last of the three shots knocks that alien bugger down or not :) .
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#6 Breunor

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 09:33 PM

The old system kind of reminds me of matrix's bullet speed, you see each shot fly towards the target. While it does slow it down, I liked watching the shots fly. Unless I was always missing of course...

I still like the idea of auto fire going off like you said though - bam bam bam, then you watch all 3 bullets flying towards the target as usual. If one hits you'd see it, but the camera could just keep following the remaining shots.

Another option would be to have the camera zoom back during the shots, with two small windows in the corners which show closeups of the soldier and the alien (both using the isometric angle). As the soldier fires, you see the bullets fly by the alien at the same time. The bullets could go faster and waste less time that way. You'd still see the bullets in the main view, since you don't have to pan out very much. This might be a way to update the look of the game some, as I think keeping the original system for shots will look a little dated IMO.

#7 revenant4

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 08:33 PM

I like the old system. Tho it isnt very realistic it adds little more feeling to the game. It is exciting when u have to see if that last of the three shots knocks that alien bugger down or not :) .

This is the best approach in my mind to this debate...though it is more unrealistic it makes the game more exciting and it gives Xenocide a more XCOM feel...good point though but my vote is for the old Auto-Fire

#8 _borg

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:15 AM

I'm going slightly off topic here, but in my opinion every shot fired with auto shot should be more accurate than the shot fired before it. A soldier would probably notice if he's missing the target and try to correct his aiming so he would hit the target.

#9 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:35 AM

On the contray, if he was doing a 3 shot spray, then the 1st shot would be the most accurate, not the 3rd, because of recoil. Just coz the game made u think that it was 3 shots one after the other, it was in fact a 3 shot spray that they represented one by one. The representation of the 3 shot spray is what is being discussed here.

#10 miceless

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:44 AM

I like the old system. Tho it isnt very realistic it adds little more feeling to the game.

Got to agree with Raven Squad there. I think that in this case its about game feeling rather than realism. If you wanted realism the bullets would fire at the same time and would travel really fast. :uzzi:

(Why is uzi spelt with two Zs for the above emoticon?)

As for Borg's post im not sure I agree. If its a three round burst the weapons kick would reduce accuracy, but not by much. You dont have time to aim the gun based on the bullet rajectory. If however its more of a three snap shots in a row trick, then I suppose you might be expected to improve slightly, but would it be significant?

I hope this was an open question, seeing the rank of people in here im hoping its not a top brass meting. :LOL:
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#11 miceless

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:47 AM

Woah, someone who agrees with me!

And ive been promoted too! :happybanana:
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#12 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:56 AM

As for Borg's post im not sure I agree. If its a three round burst the weapons kick would reduce accuracy, but not by much. You dont have time to aim the gun based on the bullet rajectory. If however its more of a three snap shots in a row trick, then I suppose you might be expected to improve slightly, but would it be significant?

Well, since an autoshot is from the hip, u wouldn't so much as aim, as point it in the general direction. It is very hard to aim from the hip, and to control the kick is even worse. It just doesn't happen like in films where u can point a full size machine gun at a target from the hip and fire accuratly every time. With the gun in ur shoulder the kick is a lot less, and u may be right about accuracy improving, but from the hip it is little more than covering fire.

#13 hArk

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:57 AM

Well if we use the old style we can see in anticipation where every shot goes but people who haven’t played the original most possibly would not like it

But do to do it realistically it would most possibly not have the anticipation of the old style

Unless you can come up with away to combine the both with out the trade off

#14 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 08:58 AM

I can't remember who's sig it is, but someone has the sig:

The game first, realism second

( No quote marks as I'm not so sure about the wording )

#15 Breunor

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 10:37 AM

IIRC a 3 shot burst takes about 33% of your TUs to fire. A full round will be based on 4 seconds, so auto fire takes a little over 1 second. Since there's no chance to correct, recoil makes each shot less accurate than a single aimed shot.

#16 Nickisimo

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 12:24 PM

True, but I never noticed any difference in accuracy between the 3 shots in the original game. Infact, a lot of the time it was my 2nd or 3rd shot that dropped the SOB. While watching the soldier fire each round individually is semi-unrealistic(all it really shows is the soldier firing 3 snap shots in succession), it'd take a lot away from the game if we saw Joe Soldier fire 3 beams at once and we couldn't follow them all. :happybanana:

#17 Breunor

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 12:53 PM

What would be fun/nice to have is the Matrix-style shockwaves of each shot. If anybody has seen The Killer Bean 2, the effect would be cool!

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#18 Puasonen

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 01:11 PM

Idea..
I've been in the army and trained autoshot a LOT.. In fact they teach in army to always shoot single shots even if you have "automatic rifle" (don't know it in english) or semiauto.. It's always only the first shot that is accurate, rest of the shots are going upper, no matter how much you train.. The exception comes if you have a stationary autorifle, then the "legs" keeps your cannon straight, so why don't we make stationary "heavy autocannons" to xenocide? It would take 1 turn to go down and set up the autocannon and 1 turn to collect it and stand up again..? It would be cool and usefull, accurate autoshots.. maybe even 4-6 in one turn! :uzzi: Of course we should make aliens something like plasma cannon or something too :naughty:
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#19 Raven Squad

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 01:23 PM

In real life like nyyperoid said first round goes where it is supposed to go and second little higher and so on. Automatic or burst fire is used mostly to keep enemy down. IMO this would not fit in game cos it would make autoshot useless. U only have chance to hit first shot so u use snapshot instead. Unless we make aliens duck and lose their action poinst when they are fire at.

PS:Where did u serve Nyyperoid? I did do my time :) in Sodankylä.
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#20 revenant4

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 01:50 PM

I think we're all getting a little off subject...it's nice to know the statistics of an auto-fire in real life but the question was:

"Now, if i decided to use auto-fire, i would definetly not wait till the bullet hit, before i shoot another shot.

Lets say i use a heavy plasma. I shoot a beam, and while the beam is, lets say, 1/2 square away, another beam will exit, and same with nr. 3. Otherwise, it will just be 3 snapshots.

Anyone agree?"

Mikker

So, in this statement I say I do not agree...and that I would like to see it in 3 snapshot forms...that way it builds the suspense and you can see where each shot went...I would love to see the Matrix rings as it would build the slow motion sequence/feel

#21 Puasonen

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 01:51 PM

Yeah, autofire would be kinda useless with normal rifles and heavyplasmas but very effective when used as a 'autocannon post' laying down.. That's my point.

btw, I was trained at Säkylä.
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#22 Puasonen

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 01:58 PM

"Now, if i decided to use auto-fire, i would definetly not wait till the bullet hit, before i shoot another shot.

Lets say i use a heavy plasma. I shoot a beam, and while the beam is, lets say, 1/2 square away, another beam will exit, and same with nr. 3. Otherwise, it will just be 3 snapshots.

Anyone agree?"

I would love to see the Matrix rings as it would build the slow motion sequence/feel

Yes it's lame that autoshot is 3 single shots.. The only thing I liked about apocalypse was the way they had done the autoshot feature :rolleyes:
Nowadays it could be done even better than that. Breunor had few good ideas about that.

What comes to matrix kind of slowmotion rings.. I vote 'yes' we should try it, it would be cool but it shouldn't be done so that it starts to be boring after few times..
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#23 Breunor

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 02:24 PM

Meanwhile the programmers are pulling their hair out somewhere... The description Jeff Lew has about making those effects sounds pretty intense, I don't know how plausible they'd be in any version of the game. Perhaps we should start a campaign to get him to join the project? IIRC, he actually did some animation work for the movie.

OT, the only reason they showed the auto shots the way they did was so you could follow where each one went.

#24 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 02:55 PM

Wouldn't u still be able to follow them if they were all sprayed at almost the same time, as they would be, and then follow all 3 bullets together, 1 after the other in close proximity. Would make sense 2 me, and I don't see how it would hinder gameplay.

#25 Puasonen

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 10:37 PM

It's not unusual that autoshots three shots fly COMPLETELY in different directions, that's why it can't be done so that the camera follows all of them at the same time.. And I think the matrix-circles won't have to be exactly like in matrix :LOL:
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#26 revenant4

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 10:43 PM

It's not unusual that autoshots three shots fly COMPLETELY in different directions, that's why it can't be done so that the camera follows all of them at the same time.. And I think the matrix-circles won't have to be  exactly like in matrix  :LOL:

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#27 warhamster

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 12:02 AM

True, but I never noticed any difference in accuracy between the 3 shots in the original game. Infact, a lot of the time it was my 2nd or 3rd shot that dropped the SOB. While watching the soldier fire each round individually is semi-unrealistic(all it really shows is the soldier firing 3 snap shots in succession), it'd take a lot away from the game if we saw Joe Soldier fire 3 beams at once and we couldn't follow them all.  :happybanana:

Yeah. The first shot was usually reserved for the greenie who was doing point, or the civilian who decided to run out of TU's right in the middle of the fire fight.

#28 c4t

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 12:49 AM

Yeah. The first shot was usually reserved for the greenie who was doing point, or the civilian who decided to run out of TU's right in the middle of the fire fight.

:LOL: anybody ever heard of CCB? cold clean barrel, read about it in a sniper training/history book (sniping is awesome) anyway, the gun fires best on the first shot, atleast most accuratly on the first shots, after the barrel gets heated it expands and since the barrel is bigger the bullet may wobble around a bit more and be more in accurate ( i guess? :huh?: )
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#29 miceless

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 01:00 AM

That must mean that they aim at the greenie/civilian on purpose then. :LOL:
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#30 Nickisimo

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 06:16 AM

LOL, yeah just last night I was playing a t-site night mission and my hovertank spotted a snakeman(a quite angry one with a lot of TU's left apparently), behind a house. My top sniper had almost a straight line to him, except for the small wood tile in front of the snakeman. Unfortunately, a civilian had placed himself inside the house between my sniper and the wall. So, I hoped for the best and fired...
1st shot, civilian got killed(whoops...oh well, it's a -50 instead of -30, plus I got to eliminate that moron)
2nd shot, wall got toasted
3rd shot, the dishes are done man.

Auto-shot rocks. :happybanana:

#31 miceless

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 09:22 AM

Two civilians suffered nasty deaths when they were too close to an exploding pertrol pump in one of my games.
:explode:

Guess it was my own fault for firing an autoshot at an alien on the other side of the petrol station. :rolleyes:

Cant remember if I got that alien or not. I have however killed several aliens with petrol pumps. Both on purpose and by accident.
"If it moves - kill it. If it doesn't move - kill it anyway, it might move later."

#32 Nickisimo

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 10:52 AM

It all goes back to the adage: "Shoot first, ask questions later."

I'm somewhere in the monthly report to the finance committee someone will ask, "Why on the terror attack in Calcutta, 5 April, did your soldier...a Sgt. John TriggerFinger feel it necessary to toss a high yield explosive device into a dark street corner, unsure as to the possibility of civilians in the area?"

"Well, Mr. Chairman...it was only 20 more points...that's all, no further questions...plenty of work to get back to." :happybanana:

#33 warhamster

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 11:25 AM

But there are rewarding moments as well. My head honcho got caught in a sit where he ran out of TU's and was facing a fatal quickie with a horny chrysalid.

Greenie takes a shot from 6 blocks off, through 2 windows, barely missing 2 civies, a couple of trees, connects and makes the kill. aaaahhhhh...


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#34 Breunor

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 12:43 PM

"Well Mr. Chairman, I'd much rather know innocent civs died by my hand than by those wretched aliens!"

"I don't think I care for your tone, Commander..."

"I can sense the alien mind control tugging at you already Mr. Chairman. Captain, close and lock those doors. We need to liberate the Chairman here from this ATTITUDE he's developed!"
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#35 LordT

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 01:38 PM

What would be fun/nice to have is the Matrix-style shockwaves of each shot. If anybody has seen The Killer Bean 2, the effect would be cool!

... why would anyone watch "The Killer Bean 2", really, I at least have better things to do :)
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#36 warhamster

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 07:43 PM

but seriously, with regards to the question of auto fire, yes, i'd like something done to make autofire actually feel like autofire and not just three snap shots in a row.

#37 Wolfman

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 02:23 AM

Hiya,

My first post on this forum .... been reading quite a bit of it for the past 2 days and I just wanted to add my ideas here, ok? :wink:

About autofire and how it should look - im all in favour of the "original" system .... because if you fire 3 shots in quick succession:

1) If you track all 3 shots on 1 screen then what happens if 1 shot hits an intervening obstacle that isnt near where the other 2 shots land???

2) If you zoom out to show the whole path of where the shots could land then in some circumstances the zoom could be way over the top.

Im sure that both of these problems could be solved but then again its much easier to use the old system. Its tried and tested. :)

As for accuracy of autofire how about (for v2):

1) Earth designed/based weapons recoil thus decreasing accuracy for each shot
2) Alien based weapons dont recoil (why would a laser beam make the weapon recoil???) thus they get more accurate with each shot. Obviously not all alien weapns would be recoiless.

Or just a thought, perhaps you could research "upgraded" weapons for instance why not have autobalancing technology that dampens the recoil thus increasing accuracy of balistic weapons that fire autofire?

Just my 2 pence.

Also while I am at it (this post is much longer than I originaly planned!) do you still need coders? I am a Computer Science graduate with experience in C++, Java, OpenGL development. (Also a load of other stuff thats quite usless that we were taught .... like LISP :huh?:)

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#38 Puasonen

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 03:36 AM

Also while I am at it (this post is much longer than I originaly planned!) do you still need coders? I am a Computer Science graduate with experience in C++, Java, OpenGL development. (Also a load of other stuff thats quite usless that we were taught .... like LISP  :huh?:)

-wolfman

Take a look in:
"xcomufo.com -> xenocide world headquarters -> the laboratory -> would you like to be part of"

There's your chance to get in the project. I think there's never too much programmers on board so I think "they" will accept your offer :)
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#39 Durandal

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 12:33 PM

I agree that autoshot shouldn't feel like three snapshots. How about this: for snapshot and aimedshot the camera follows the shot, but for autoshot the camera stays on the target and the shots can land anywhere and you have to figure out afterwards what the misses blew up or killed.

#40 Tuoppi

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 01:04 PM

Anyone checked "Silent Storm" or good old "Jagged Alliance 2". Those had pretty good autoshot models, at least they felt like full auto. And autoshot isn't as hopeless as it seems. Most warfare is done at range of 50m-300m, and there it is mostly pointless except for suppression. Urban firefights however are in range of 1-50m and there the pinpoint accuracy isn't as big issue, as is getting multiple shots quickly at target. That is why there are submachine guns in cityfighting special forces and normal troops have assault rifles.

#41 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 17 February 2005 - 08:25 AM

About auto in laser weapons... Would´nt it be better if in auto we would have a continious moving beam...?

#42 Moriarty

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 05:50 AM

- I too think that the old XCom autofire-system is too unrealistic
my preferred solution would be all three shots fired in rapid sequence and flying simultaneously

- I also like to see where my bullets went
my preferred solution would be the camera zooming out far enough to view the firing soldier, the target and all three impact points at the same time. if that zooms ridiculously far out, that only serves the purpose: you immediately get the feeling that something went wrong

- I too like the "bullet-time"
and, to be precise, that is exactly what XCom had, isn't it? a kind of slow-mo view where you can actually see your bullet fly. and the matrix-style bullet-path effect would be nice, too - as long as the "firing-view" is active, that is. and for rocket-propelled weapons there would be smoke-trails anyway... perhaps for plasma weapons too?

- laser weapons - continouus beam?
I don't know about that. The laser weapons are described by the current CTD as short-pulse laser weapons... a continouus firing mode would probably burn the weapon out in no time. and one mor thing about bullet-time: The thing about lasers is that they travel at the speed of light (sounds logical, doesn't it :D ). That's what I never liked about them in XCom... for laser weapons, there shouldn't be a "projectile" at all. You fire, the beam hits the target, air between weapon muzzle and target flashes, because it is instantly super-heated. So if there is any kind of "bullet-time" effect for laser weapons, that would be it. And the CTD for laser weapons says so too: "However, an unfortunate side effect of such an intense beam is its tendency to ionize the air along the path of the beam, rendering the path of the beam quite visible and consequently revealing the location of the shooter."

just my .02$

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#43 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 02:08 PM

Well, i`ve heard that 3 shots (to the head) is a good system of activating ammo in hostages and elite commando`s situations... (here in Peru we had a situation like that in japanese ambassy in 1997)...

#44 GARAK

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 04:53 PM

I don't have a problem with the old system. If you guys make it "cooler" well, then I guess it would be cooler. I don't need to see walls crumble down in a pile of fire, dust, and smoke. If they dissapear when hit with plasma, than that too is fine.
Just my 2 pence.