Jump to content


Photo

SND - IDEAS - Xenocide Theme


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 tamat

tamat

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 22 April 2003 - 06:09 AM

What about to compose a simple melody to be the xenocide theme? not a song, only a monophonic melody. Then other songs can be based on that, like other games where there is a basic theme and all others songs are remixes or variations.

Maybe one or two melodys, every musician can suggest one and finally all the others vote for the winner of the "Xenocide Theme Award".

This maybe usefull to avoid a discontinuity on the songs, I like soundtracks where everysong have something common, one are faster, other happyer but every song are "brother" of the other songs.

Interesteds on post posible themes dont use drums, or samples, only a melody.

What do you thing?

#2 mikker

mikker

    Artwork Department

  • Xenocide Artwork Department
  • 2,211 posts

Posted 22 April 2003 - 07:07 AM

hmmm....try saying that to the music artists who allready have made their songs :P

Some people say that dreams are a portal to the subconscious. If that is so, I am a very disturbed person.

the truth about scientology

#3 Raven Squad

Raven Squad

    Sound Department

  • Xenocide Sound Department
  • 326 posts

Posted 22 April 2003 - 07:20 AM

I could try, but no promises... Not sure idea as well. Maybe intro and menu songs could have same melodies. It could get boring if that same melodies playes few hundred times in a row ;)
Yep, thats me who is posting here...

#4 Guest_stewart_*

Guest_stewart_*
  • Guests

Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:49 AM

Conceptually an interesting idea but our music guys may feel that their hands are tied and that wouldn't be fun (unless of course they're into that kind of thing, you know musicians :blink: ).

#5 Guest_drewid_*

Guest_drewid_*
  • Guests

Posted 22 April 2003 - 02:21 PM

Films often do something like this, a particular character will have a simple theme that is picked out and changed as to whether the character is in danger, angry, sad etc.

looking at the extras disk on a good dvd will often show this process.

#6 tamat

tamat

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 22 April 2003 - 04:35 PM

When a team trys to make a game every subteam (like programmers, artist, etc) works together, making common patterns, using same techniques, trying to keep a coherency between every element.

Imagine a game where every player have a diferent style, one are manga style, other are marvel, other are disney, etc. This would be a problem.
Programmers are forced to use same structures, classes, libs, etc.

Why musicians not? I know that is dificult to make work based on the others work, but this is needed on games.

#7 Deimos

Deimos

    Colonel

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 22 April 2003 - 05:02 PM

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Raven squad on this one. I get fed up of listening to the same game music over and over. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

I think it's going to work the way we're doing it. The style is dark and moody with different 'themes' for each area of the game.

#8 tamat

tamat

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 23 April 2003 - 03:22 AM

I didnt say "same song", I say similar songs, and not only one theme, various themes and various styles, like Monkey Island Saga soundtrack, or like films as American Beauty.
Lots of games use this technique and music dont be repetitive.

I'm trying to prevent from a incoherent soundtrack, where one song are trance, the other are instrumental, the other are ambient, etc.

Musicians must work using same techniques but with total freedom inside this limits.
On comercial games often who compose the music are only one man, then there is no problem because everysong are composed using same techniques, but in this project there are various composers and they dont meet them.

I think it can be a problem in future. I only suggest work together, not everybody closed on his room composing what he thinks than a XCOM soundtrack must be.

#9 Guest_drewid_*

Guest_drewid_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 April 2003 - 04:09 AM

The artists are finding a way of working where images are posted up and commented on.

It doesn't necessarily need 'a leader' just that a number of people agree on a style and how things should look.

For instance alien craft will be faceted and iridescent purple/blue, human craft will be more human looking, smoother, camoflaged. human weapons will use mainly straight lines and blacks/greys/olive greens - real military colours, alien weapons will be curvy and blues/purples. that sort of thing.
These aren't restrictions, they are guidelines, working within them is not a problem, it makes you more creative to come up with solutions that still fit the guides. It is a focus for your energy.

It also means that people have to be open to changing their work if people think it doesn't fit the idea and can argue a case for it.

You have to get past the small pain of having your work open to honest criticism (constructive criticism, I've got no time for destructive criticism).

Once you are past that it's a very co-operative way of working, and the results are always better.

#10 Raven Squad

Raven Squad

    Sound Department

  • Xenocide Sound Department
  • 326 posts

Posted 23 April 2003 - 01:46 PM

I agree that we must try to make all songs fit to the game, but that doesnt mean that we cant use different music styles. IMO as it sound good it goes. Working together would step in when there is more done (geoscape). So that we could test what fits in general feel of the game.
Yep, thats me who is posting here...

#11 Deimos

Deimos

    Colonel

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 24 April 2003 - 03:26 AM

I didnt say "same song", I say similar songs, and not only one theme, various themes and various styles, like Monkey Island Saga soundtrack, or like films as American Beauty.
Lots of games use this technique and music dont be repetitive.

I'm trying to prevent from a incoherent soundtrack, where one song are trance, the other are instrumental, the other are ambient, etc.

Musicians must work using same techniques but with total freedom inside this limits.
On comercial games often who compose the music are only one man, then there is no problem because everysong are composed using same techniques, but in this project there are various composers and they dont meet them.

I think it can be a problem in future. I only suggest work together, not everybody closed on his room composing what he thinks than a XCOM soundtrack must be.

I see where you're going, but each area of the game had a seperate feel to it. Geoscape had it's dark ambience, the interceptor window had the fast high intensity 'combat' music. Battlescape had the dark anticipation almost industrial feel to it.

If we stick with similar songs we'd lose that unique feel the original game had. Each area of the game was in effect a seperate sub game and it had it theme style. I don't think anyone is sitting in their bedrooms making up their own minds how it should sound, like Drewid said everone submits their work for peer review.

I don't think the music team will allow an incoherent soundtrack, just like the art team aren't going to have a mish mash of artistic styles. We're all working to a common overall 'feel' so I don't think there's anything to worry about :)

#12 Guest_stewart_*

Guest_stewart_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 April 2003 - 09:20 AM

Anouther option is to have a huge pool of tunage and let the user decide what they want. Personally I'd pick a happy tune like the intro of "Theme Hospital" for battlescape but then again I'm a weirdo. :crazy: This way our tunesmiths can write more tunes and individual tunes are less likely to be rejected.

#13 Raven Squad

Raven Squad

    Sound Department

  • Xenocide Sound Department
  • 326 posts

Posted 25 April 2003 - 04:31 PM

Theme Hospital had great music. Fun to listen while patients thow up to the floor and complain about the heating :P .
Yep, thats me who is posting here...

#14 Guest_drewid_*

Guest_drewid_*
  • Guests

Posted 26 April 2003 - 01:59 AM

Worth bearing in mind.

Walter Murch, (one of my audio heros), believes that audio is 50% of the visual experience. which is an interesting angle on it. I have to agree with him.

He also has very developed theorys on sound and how it all fits together - It's long but worth the work of reading.
http://www.ps1.org/c...lume/murch.html

Has anyone done anything about sound effects? It's a very different skill from music, is there a list of monsters and the sounds they need?

#15 Xcen

Xcen

    Sound Department

  • Xenocide Inactive
  • 232 posts

Posted 02 May 2003 - 12:13 PM

I think it's quite possible to use Tamat idea without being limited by it.

If you would take exemple on Clint Mansel's work (clintatthecontrols.com) you will see that he frequently use this technique on his movie soundtrack and it gives interesting effects/moods

however since we plan to use a lot of music in game, we wouldn't want to apply this to every track.

Some already had noticed that two of the preview songs I posted have the same base, I did that so we could put one depending on the results of a mission for example.
I have the strangest of faith for this project...

#16 Breunor

Breunor

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Inactive
  • 3,234 posts

Posted 10 May 2003 - 09:49 AM

Can we play John Denver's 'Rocky Mountain High' in mountainous battlescapes? 'Born on the Bayou' for jungle, etc? :spank:

Edited by Breunor, 10 May 2003 - 10:14 AM.


#17 Astyanax

Astyanax

    Xnet Proof Task Force

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 785 posts

Posted 14 April 2005 - 10:58 AM

Sorry to dredge up such an old topic, but I didn't think this merited a topic of its own...

Anyway, I was thinking that it'd be neat if certain musical motifs were repeated at certain points of various pieces of music. Nothing too extravagant, maybe a few notes of melody or a certain chord progression that pops up once in a while- something that briefly says, "Xenocide!" without detracting from the piece. Or maybe slightly different takes on the same motif for the X-Corps and the Aliens?

Perhaps certain pieces of music could be similar to each other. For example, the music in a base attack mission might draw heavily from the basescape music (though it might have a faster tempo, more tense, and higher pitched?)- the X-Net viewer might draw from the same music, too. Maybe the Alien base music and Mars missions music are similar, but grow darker as the player gets closer to the final goal?

Similar still, maybe have a set type of music for each terrain (and/or mission type), but alter the pitch, tempo, and volume (and perhaps the independent percussion line and sfx volumes?) depending on how bright/dark it is. Night missions might be slower and quieter, and have louder, more sudden sfx, while day missions might be a little more upbeat and have louder percussion? The music might get a little repetitive unless there's a large selection of it, though.

Just my two cents worth. :P

Edited by Astyanax, 14 April 2005 - 11:55 AM.

EXCLUSIVE: Read the top-secret Creative Text Department Status Report by the Xenocide Internal Investigation Department!

#18 kafros

kafros

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 1,800 posts

Posted 14 April 2005 - 03:52 PM

Well, as Deimos said:

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Raven squad on this one. I get fed up of listening to the same game music over and over. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In order to use a specific pattern of music, we (ATeX :P) must create a reeeally exciting one, otherwise it will get boooooooooring!

I think that it would be better to use a specific SYNTH, or at least specific patterns! That will be something common among the various songs!

Hmmm, that idea about different terrains/missions sounds tempting... :hmmm:

#19 Astyanax

Astyanax

    Xnet Proof Task Force

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 785 posts

Posted 14 April 2005 - 04:07 PM

I didn't mean the same musical segment should appear in different pieces, though.

I meant that maybe on a single channel, the same several notes/chord progressions might resurface. It could be hidden amongst a lot of other channels, it's phrasing (instead of a..b..c, it could be .a.b...c.), it's tempo, it's volume, or it's sample (it could be played on an entirely different instrument). The motif shouldn't necessarily be the main thing; it's just present to generate some subtle similarities in several musical pieces.

Not too sure what you mean by a "specific SYNTH"...?

Still, if it's deemed too repetitive, there's naught I can do, eh? :P

Edited by Astyanax, 14 April 2005 - 05:26 PM.

EXCLUSIVE: Read the top-secret Creative Text Department Status Report by the Xenocide Internal Investigation Department!

#20 kafros

kafros

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 1,800 posts

Posted 15 April 2005 - 07:02 AM

Well, we both mean a specific THEME, right? :P :D
Anyway, if we find an interesting one, we make a poll in order to see if we will stick with, or have entirely different songs

Synth = SYNTHesizer. When you say synth, you either mean an analog synthesizer, which is that neat keyboard device with which you can make maaaaany different electronic sounds, or a digital one, which is a program/plug-in, with which you can also make different sounds. YOu manipulate the different OSCillators, you add effects, and voila!

#21 Astyanax

Astyanax

    Xnet Proof Task Force

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 785 posts

Posted 15 April 2005 - 10:37 AM

No, no, no... not a theme! :P Something even shorter, more subtle than a theme. (I hope we aren't on different wavelengths!)

Say you have 4 instruments: A, B, C, and D. In musical piece #1, instrument A might play the motif (a short 2 second-long phrase), while B, C, and D are still playing their respective parts. So in the whole piece of music, only 2 seconds (or maybe 4-6 if it's repeated) is dedicated to the motif.

In musical piece #2 (with instruments E, F, G, H, and I), the motif might be played by instruments F and G at some point (2 seconds), and later by E, G, and I. The motif doesn't necessarily have to be in the foreground (like a theme).

The casual listener would hear two different pieces of music, but at rare moments, they'll get a feeling of deja vu, because they have heard that short part somewhere else in Xenocide.

Still, I might just be overcomplicating things. :P

When you said "specific SYNTH", did you mean to use a certain instrument (e.g. a trumpet) instead of a theme?

(On another note, does Reason really cost $500?! I saw that on their website yesterday.)
EXCLUSIVE: Read the top-secret Creative Text Department Status Report by the Xenocide Internal Investigation Department!

#22 kafros

kafros

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 1,800 posts

Posted 15 April 2005 - 12:18 PM

1) Yes, that kind of software costs MUCH! Reason is @500, Cubase SX @1000, FL Studio Producer Edition @150.... I think tha I've seen Maya 6 @5000 (or was it 50000? :hmmm:)

2) OK,OK, "theme", "motif", "2-second-pattern", "to-be-reproduced-often-sound-pattern", whateva! :P :P :P
We are on different wavelengths, but we describe the same information :P :D

3) I agree with ya, it will be nice to have something like that! I remember that EU had such a "motif", a high-pitched sound which faded over 1-1.5 seconds. TI TI ti ti <...> ..... That was rather nice ^_^

4) Well, we could either compose a SPECIFIC "motif" produced by something analog/digital/sample/synth-ed, or we could use a common instrument (analog/digital/sample/synth) in all our songs. I believe the latter will be easier to achieve, AND will not kill our creativity, although it may not be such a "strong deja-vu" feeling as the former... That's up to the SND :)

#23 Astyanax

Astyanax

    Xnet Proof Task Force

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 785 posts

Posted 15 April 2005 - 04:15 PM

1) Yes, that kind of software costs MUCH! Reason is @500, Cubase SX @1000, FL Studio Producer Edition @150.... I think tha I've seen Maya 6 @5000 (or was it 50000? :hmmm:)

:hmmm: I'm beginning to see why there aren't many people in the Sound Department! You have to be really serious and/or dedicated to be willing to shell out that kind of money!

2) OK,OK, "theme", "motif", "2-second-pattern", "to-be-reproduced-often-sound-pattern", whateva! :P :P :P
We are on different wavelengths, but we describe the same information :P :D

3) I agree with ya, it will be nice to have something like that! I remember that EU had such a "motif", a high-pitched sound which faded over 1-1.5 seconds. TI TI ti ti <...> ..... That was rather nice ^_^

Yeah, something like that! Or it could be a few notes that sometimes can be heard between phrases, like when things are fading out, only to be lost again when the next phrase begins.

4) Well, we could either compose a SPECIFIC "motif" produced by something analog/digital/sample/synth-ed, or we could use a common instrument (analog/digital/sample/synth) in all our songs. I believe the latter will be easier to achieve, AND will not kill our creativity, although it may not be such a "strong deja-vu" feeling as the former... That's up to the SND :)

Well, either way, having some sort of similarity in the music- little things to make the songs say, "Xenocide"- might be nice. :)

Edited by Astyanax, 15 April 2005 - 04:17 PM.

EXCLUSIVE: Read the top-secret Creative Text Department Status Report by the Xenocide Internal Investigation Department!

#24 kafros

kafros

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 1,800 posts

Posted 16 April 2005 - 12:43 AM

1) *ahem* There are also alternative solutions to that... :hmmm: *ahem*

2-4) So, I think it wouldn't hurt to give it a try :). Although that means we will have to change all songs... :\

I've done the "big-move" in music composition, and I realized how Synths actually work! I've done some progress with 3xOSC in Fruity Loops, but Reason's Subtractor seems to be a bit more difficult (in order to find a nice looking sound, I've already done some nice high-pitched and annoying "quee-eek" patterns :D)

#25 Astyanax

Astyanax

    Xnet Proof Task Force

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 785 posts

Posted 16 April 2005 - 01:40 AM

Um, about the alternative solutions... well, even if I were to go that route my sad computer wouldn't be able to handle it. I thought there might be a more feasible option for a dabbler. :P

Although that means we will have to change all songs... :\

Nah, this isn't important enough to make such a sweeping change. That is, unless people are willing to spend a lot of time on it (which I rather doubt).

I've done the "big-move" in music composition, and I realized how Synths actually work! I've done some progress with 3xOSC in Fruity Loops, but Reason's Subtractor seems to be a bit more difficult (in order to find a nice looking sound, I've already done some nice high-pitched and annoying "quee-eek" patterns :D)

Sounds like you're having fun, kafros. I envy you! :P

Well, enough spamming for me in SND for now. I'll come back when I have some more important stuff to say. ;)
EXCLUSIVE: Read the top-secret Creative Text Department Status Report by the Xenocide Internal Investigation Department!

#26 ATeX

ATeX

    Sound Department

  • Xenocide Inactive
  • 545 posts

Posted 16 April 2005 - 04:15 AM

Allright! Great ideas here!

I think the songs that have been produced until now are usable, at least, on temporary base. The moment that all the gaps are filled and we all get some more time and start making new compositions, it could be a good idea to replace certain songs (whereas most considerable: the main theme). But for the moment, Xenocide will have pretty much variation on the sound side :)

And in case there will be too many compositions somewhere next year (which is quite unrealistic :) it might be a good idea to get a voting system)

About the *uhm* production. I don't think that's a good idea. But of course, you guys do what you want to do. There are very nice freeware sequencers/VST/samplers on the internet. I suggest you use these, until you can afford something new. Still, the very best software to buy are Fruity Loops and Reason. If you're not serious about music, then don't go any further than this.

And yes, the typical "xenocide" sound is a must! With a little effort, it'll point itself out.



cheers,
ATeX

#27 kafros

kafros

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 1,800 posts

Posted 16 April 2005 - 11:32 AM

Hey Asty, you are ALWAYS welcome to say whatever you want! Even "Hello! :D" :P :D
Being in the SND doesn't mean we don't talk much :P :wink1: :)

YOu know ATeX, if I found a full version of FL Studio, I would be the first to buy it. BUT, it's Greece here! The only piece of software you may find is some silly greek productions, software everyone uses (win XP, Office, Photoshop), and games (the oldest one is 5 years old :( ). And, no1 EVER, EVER buys Photoshop, office or windows, they are copied "for free" at every new computer... don't even talk about finding Reason or Fruity Loops in stores! So, there is no other way to have access to these fine pieces of software :(

And, FL Studio PE is quite cheap, $150, and you have free updates for life!!!! That's just marvelous, but unavailable for me :(

And I don't trust online shopping much in order to buy a copy from e-bay (and I definitely won't trust any other store)

#28 Astyanax

Astyanax

    Xnet Proof Task Force

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 785 posts

Posted 18 April 2005 - 09:48 AM

"Hello, kafros! :D" ;)

There are very nice freeware sequencers/VST/samplers on the internet.

Are there any that you recommend? I'd like to dabble with the creation process before committing the funds for decent software package.
EXCLUSIVE: Read the top-secret Creative Text Department Status Report by the Xenocide Internal Investigation Department!

#29 ATeX

ATeX

    Sound Department

  • Xenocide Inactive
  • 545 posts

Posted 19 April 2005 - 06:47 AM

I've seen quite a lot of those around. But I never used them because there was no need for them. I heard on another forum that Buzztracker was very nice. Also, on this forum there has been a topic around this. I can't give you links right now. I'll try to find the internet addresses and post it into the resources forum when I have some more time.

cheers!

#30 kafros

kafros

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 1,800 posts

Posted 19 April 2005 - 08:54 AM

You will find most of the things you need right here:

http://www.sonicspot.com/music.html

Feel you are a newbie???
http://www.native-in...us&tsr_id=20634

Heheheee...

Hey ATeX, keyboards seem to be a STANDARD for any composed.... Maybe that's the reason why I can't make even a tiny song, I got no MIDI eyboard, and using the standard keyboard to control the FL Piano Roll doesn't help much.... :D

#31 kafros

kafros

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 1,800 posts

Posted 19 April 2005 - 08:56 AM

Unforunately, good keyboards COST! $$$
It seems that the cheapest MIDI keyboard has 2 octaves of non-touch-sensitive keys, and NO KNOBS!!! NO USB! And it costs $60....
Damn, keyboards can't be found at warez sites :P :D ^_^

Edit: another nice site full of software (not free, but you will learn about the "sound industry" :) )
http://www.supanet.c...uting6.1/music/

And there's a free sequencer (a "modular" one). Psycle seems to be used for psychedelic/goa song creation! YUMMYYYYYYYY!! I GOTTA LEARN THIS SOFT!!!!!! :D
Actually, I DO hope that there are some tutorials at the site, I am T-O-T-A-L-L-Y lost! At least, at FL Studio, I could produce some sounds (hopefully, I now know how to use the generators/samples/patterns etc)

Edited by kafros, 19 April 2005 - 09:03 AM.


#32 Astyanax

Astyanax

    Xnet Proof Task Force

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 785 posts

Posted 19 April 2005 - 10:19 AM

Hey kafros & ATeX, thanks a lot!!! The links and info (esp. the freeware post) will put me on the right track.

Unfortunately, in your "beginner" link, kafros, it says:

Minimum 800-1500 MHz processor, 256 MB RAM and at least a 20 GB hard disc

I already don't have two out of the three. :sorry:

I've done a little with MIDI before (I transcribed some sheet music note by note... that took a while), but with some of those applications, I should be able to do things a little more efficiently.

I also have a midi keyboard, but I've never hooked it up to my computer before. Looks like I'll be playing around with some stuff this weekend... :D

Edited by Astyanax, 19 April 2005 - 10:21 AM.

EXCLUSIVE: Read the top-secret Creative Text Department Status Report by the Xenocide Internal Investigation Department!

#33 kafros

kafros

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Creative-Text Departmen
  • 1,800 posts

Posted 19 April 2005 - 01:27 PM

Well, a 2GHz CPU is JUST what you need. I still have a CPU @ 1998MHz, and I am just HAPPY with it! My classmates have 3.6 HT P4 (and they think that saying "p4" makes them leets.... f**king n00bs!), and they actually don't use it at all! Word, Internet surfing and "Cool games" like Commandos 3, that's their reality.... $*^*@#&%@$&%(*&!#@&^!!!! :cussing: :cussing:

Anyway, 2GHz should be ~$70-$80, or even less! I have 1GB of Ram ( :NyaNyaNya: ), but 256MB is the standard nowadays. That should be ~$80. And, don't worry about the HDD, even 8GB should do the trick :D

Note that these prices are what you typically see in Greece (Yikez! :crying1: ). Especially in America, you can find stuff at the 1/4th of our prices :(

#34 ATeX

ATeX

    Sound Department

  • Xenocide Inactive
  • 545 posts

Posted 20 April 2005 - 06:47 AM

Ok, let's see, A MIDI keyboard is a must if you're wanting to make music on your computer. It's possible to do it without, but you'll need at least some understanding of music because you'll be doing everything theoretically. There's almost no feeling with that mouse.

60$ is quite cheap. Mine costed about a $1000. So, go work somewhere for 1 day or 2, get if for your birthday or whatever else. And then, call yourself a lucky man. I do NOT recommend to begin making music without one, unless there almost no melody in it or you know music enough to do without.

Then, computer power, aaargh, don't let people do the marketing for you. I started with a Pentium 100 Mhz with 32 Mb ram and a HD of 512 Mb, and it worked just fine! You'll only have to be a little bit more inventive because you won't be able to add those great unnecessary VSTs etc etc, but that hasn't got to do anything with music, right? So, don't bother about that one. If you've got a computer with a soundcard (and a MIDI keyboard :) ) you're on the right track!


good luck!

cheers,
ATeX

Edited by ATeX, 20 April 2005 - 06:52 AM.