Awards And Presentations Design Doc

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

Attached is a portion of the over-all Ops DB design document, specific to the Awards and Decorations panel.

 

Most of it is really very simple, such as the ribbons and arm patch section. However, the medal section gets a little more interesting. This is because I have suggested using a "point system" similar to the one suggested in the Ops DB thread. It seems to balance pretty well, but obviously this is just a concept. Please trash it, say its crazy, and such - just also tell me how to make it work better. Also, if I haven't worded it clearly, please ask. I think this is something that needs to be discussed in detail.

 

To give you the basic idea, medals are awarded based on a point system. Medal Y needs X points to get assigned. Certain actions are worth these points. Do enough good actions, and not enough bad ones, and hopefully your operative gets the medal. Thats the basic idea. Obviously, how much is worth what is the hard part. Think of what I put down as a suggestion only. Also, I'm sure there could be more modifiers in the mix. Or maybe less. Thats what we need to talk about.

 

The only thing I ask is this: lets try not too add new medals, unless EVERYONE really wants them. We have a lot of them as it is, although I've made them harder to get than some might like. I'm a dick like that . Seriosuly though, let me know if you think my numbers are too high, or two low.

 

So, attack!

Gold

 

ps - in the next draft, I will try to add the actual ribbon, so that you can see it as well as read about it. for now, go over to the ribbons post to see the graphic.

 

EIDT: please excuse my inconsistent language. it should remain medals throughout, not awards.

ADDDv100.doc

Edited July 10, 2003 by GreatGold

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

How about bonus multipiers for being in a alien base, or a larger ship? It's a harder to take a leader in a base or a battleship than a smaller vessel.

 

-The Captain

[GreatGold]

Here is v1.01, with spelling and technical fixs. Arm Patches are now Arm Tabs, as per real life. A distinction has been made between point based medals and non-point based medals. Spelling and typos corrected.

 

I also like the ship idea. I will try to figure it in to the next version. I'll wait for some more feedback though, before altering the pint system - every alteration affects every other value.

 

Gold

ADDDv101.doc

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

I just realize I made a basic oversight. I have not taken the level the player is playing at into consideration. However, I think this is easy to fix, we could just use a constant multiplier. To scale the points to each level. It should be harder to get a medal in Beginner mode than SuperGenious I feel.

 

Gold

[miceless]

Looks great. A few comments.

 

I think the numbers are a little high in some cases. I mean, I dont recall any soldier of mine ever reaching 100 kills or 50 missions. Those are just two examples. I guess the numbers would have to be tested.

 

Also, you said this in the doc:

 

Suppose he killed a friendly, and a civilian.  Then disregard the civilian multiplier, as the friendly multiplier is worse.  If no friendly are killed, but a civilian(s) is, then use that multiplier.

I think you should still apply both multipliers.

 

Also, i think things such as the terrain bonus and time bonus should be multipliers, not just added points.

[GreatGold]

think the numbers are a little high in some cases. I mean, I dont recall any soldier of mine ever reaching 100 kills or 50 missions. Those are just two examples. I guess the numbers would have to be tested.

Yeah, I agree that they are high. But heres my reasoning. I'm told the AI will be much harder than the original (a good thing), so therefore we will most likely have more, and more interesting, missions. So, I made the numbers high to be safe. But you are correct, only testing will really let us know.

 

About making things into multipliers. I've been mulling it over, and I think I agree. But thats gonna be a lot of work, so unless we have a math wiz among us, it might take a while to really figure out well. The problem with multipliers, is just that they multiply. So a little change can have a big impact. In general though, you are correct, multipliers would be better.

 

Gold

[Kenshiro]

To clarify some points:

 

(Note the next draft will reflect these)

 

All insignia awarded for accomplishments are known as awards and decorations. Beneath this category are ribbons, medals, and tabs. There are also rank insignia which are related:

 

Ribbons and medals are decorations.

 

Ribbons are awarded just like Gold said, but there were a few in the wrong category. So, here are the ribbons:

 

Induction Ribbon

Marksmanship Ribbon

Psi Training Ribbon

Hostile Engagement Ribbon

Veteran's Ribbon

 

Medals include the following. Note the ones with stars are based on points awarded for killing/stunning things:

 

Combat Service Medal*

Meritorious Combat Service Medal*

Distinguished Combat Service Medal*

Blood Cross

Defender Medal

Mercy Cross

Order of the Rifleman

Century Medal - you kill/stun stuff for this one, but it's based on count, not points.

Cross of Heroism*

Medal of Valor*

 

The devices are pinned to ribbons and show additional awards of a ribbon or medal. They work as follows:

Ribbons utilize diamond devices, and medals utilize star devices. Devices are centered on the ribbon and spaced evenly across. Medals use the same spacing as if the top of the medal was a ribbon.

 

You start having devices with the second award, which gets you a bronze device. (Sorry, no gold star for you, you'll have to see your elementary school teacher.)

*

 

Additional awards get you more bronze devices until you hit four:

**

***

****

 

When you get your sixth award, which you might think would be bronze device number five, you trade all the bronze in for one silver:

*

 

After that you mix silver and bronze, unless the decoration specifically says you max out at the silver star. Most of ours do, see the design doc. The silver one stays on the left, then additional bronzes go to the right, spaced evenly and centered on the ribbon just as before. As before, when you get your 11th award (there would be one silver and four bronze devices on the ribbon on the 10th award) you trade the second four bronze in for a silver.

 

Hopefully we have this balanced so you will not need to worry about that many devices, but I post it here just so you know in case it comes up.

 

The other type of awards you'll see in the shadow box are tabs, which are awarded for certain stat increases (simulating qualification based on physical performance in those areas). This includes the recon, heavy weapons, and commando tabs. Tabs are a special kind of patch with the distinctive shape you see in the shadow box; not all patches are called tabs. The X-Corps patch is not considered a tab.

 

Rank insignia are the result of promotions. These are not to be confused with awards, because they represent progression rather than achievement (which contributes to progression but is not the thing itself).

 

Hope this clears up some terminology for the militarily challenged.

 

EDIT: Minor corrections.

Edited July 10, 2003 by Kenshiro

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

Just to sum up Kenshiro's post, the next draft will be rearranged. We included some of the ribbons with medals, and then decided to just seperate them into different categories. It will be easier to follow that way.

 

Also, the Psi and Marksmenship Tabs are now going to be Ribbons.

 

So, look foward to seeing those changes in the next draft.

Gold

[red knight]

Seriously speaking I had been away for 2 or 3 days (without reading the whole stuff). This is way out from the current and soon to be milestones (meaning the awards stuff), one thing is to think that it could be implemented so what information the programming department MUST know in advance, however there is not a consensus YET on that issue, so dont bypass the seniors regarding this stuff. (4 days ago I had let the issue drift to give you enough creative freedom, but that doesnt means that what you are crafting here is final, not either approved yet).

EDIT: That doesnt means It wont be implemented cause I like it myself (who know maybe I will be the one implemented but the issue it is still not approved and an Idle Priority task, cause it is wishy if it is not approved) There are several task needed for the next milestone that if the important stuff is done in time I will implement myself in my winter vacations in 1 week, have 2 weeks to devote to the project in programming only mode, but that means that there are important things as the XNET Layout to be ready and some entries for the XNet done before that.

 

As a side note I had found out that there had been graphics related stuff being done without a proper knowledge of the seniors from the art department, that is a NO GO. Seniors MUST know what you are doing regarding any aspect, do not make the work more difficult as it is. If you find out that something of what you are doing is important notify via PM the cooresponding seniors. Another thing is that we have serious things to do for the next milestone that do not account for a soldier database, and release day is getting near. I need those XNet layout finished not the Soldiers database.

 

Moreover the intend of this forum is to do things about creative text, not graphics for that you have a complete forum. I had left it here cause I though that all the cooresponding seniors knew about the existance of this threads but this is not the proper place for it. Any graphics related thread MUST be moved to the graphics development forum.

 

EDIT: Just to clarify, the graphics threads are some other ones in this very same forum. For the ones that read the not edited form I was pointed that it sounds rude, but that wasnt my intention. The intend of this message is to let you know that there are several High Priority Tasks that need a resolution ASAP, even if they are compromise solutions. That things MUST be ordered and put in the cooresponding forum and that the communication flow MUST work.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

Edited July 10, 2003 by red knight

[GreatGold]

Moreover the intend of this forum is to do things about creative text, not graphics for that you have a complete forum.

Ummm, this thread doesnt have anything to do with graphics. Yes, there is a graphics aspect, but thats in another thread somewhere. This thread is for the creative side, which is naming the medals, what they are awared for, and things of that nature.

 

Also, believe me, everyone is now aware of the "check with the senior members" clause, after this weekends fun...

 

Lastly, I would gladly start on the X-Net itself, but that hasn't been assigned to anyone yet by a senior member, and I think its too big a thing to start with ones own initiative. So if you guys feel we are ready for that, let us know. But thats a different thread, not this one.

 

Gold

[GreatGold]

Back to this thread now. I have a feeling that the reason most people havent responced to the document, is because its a document. So I'm going to post most of it here, except for the tables. For that, you will need to download the document and look it over, as the boards dont have an "import table" feature that I know about.

 

RIBBONS AND ACHEIVEMENT MEDALS

Here is the first version of Awards and Decorations.  To begin with, there are three classes of awards ? Ribbons and Achievement Medals, Combat Medals, and Arm Tabs.  Ribbons and Achievement Medals are awarded not for going beyond the call, but instead as a marker of significant achievement.  Medals are earned through going above and beyond what is considered necessary, in the time span of a single mission.  Lastly, Arm Tabs are awarded for increases in Stats past a certain point.  As of now, these are the only three categories, and I think they will suite our needs more then enough.

 

Ribbons and Achievement Medals (in order of achievement):

 

Induction Ribbon

? received by all X-Corp Operatives upon initiation into the program

 

Hostile Engagement Ribbon

? received after first kill or stun

? bronze star added for every 5 missions in which a kill/stun is recorded

? silver star added for 5th award, ribbon maxed out

 

Veteran's Ribbon

? received for initial mission

? bronze star added every 10 missions, regardless of operative  performance

? silver star added for 5th award, ribbon maxed out

 

Order of the Rifleman Medal

? received for surviving 51st mission

? silver diamond added every 25 missions, regardless of operative performance

? gold diamond added for 5 award, ribbon maxed out

 

Century Medal

? received for 100th alien kill, of any combination of species

? silver diamond added for every subsequent 100 kills

? gold diamond added for 5 award, ribbon maxed out

 

Blood Cross Medal

? received for being wounded on a mission (only one per mission)

? silver diamond added for every subsequent wound

? gold diamond added for 5 award, ribbon maxed out

 

Defender Medal

? received for healing 5 fatal wound in one engagement

? bronze star added for every subsequent 10 fatal wound healed, cumulativc

? silver star added for 5th award, ribbon maxed out

 

Mercy Cross Medal

? received for every 100 fatal wounds healed, cumulative

? silver diamond for ever subsequent 100 fatal wounds healed

? Defender Ribbon does not disqualify operative

 

COMBAT MEDALS

Medals are only awarded for actions in a single mission.  They are awarded by a point system, where reaching a certain amount of points activates the medal.  Below is a tentative table of actions, and their associated point value.  Needless to say, this will need to be tested quite exhaustively, to make sure it is fair.  Take this as a suggestion.

 

Combat Medals (in order of achievement):

 

Combat Service Medal

? received for 30 points in a single mission

? bronze star added for each mission this is accomplished

? silver star for 5th award, medal is maxed out

 

Meritorious Combat Service Medal 

? received for 35 points in a single mission

? bronze star added for each mission this is accomplished

? silver star for 5th award, medal is maxed out

 

Distinguished Combat Service Medal

? received for 40 points in a single mission

? bronze star added for each mission this is accomplished

? silver star for 5th award, medal is maxed out

 

Cross of Heroism 

? received for 50 points in a single mission

? bronze star added for each mission this is accomplished

? silver star for 5th award, medal is maxed out

 

Medal of Valor 

? received for 75 points in a single mission

? bronze star added for each mission this is accomplished

? silver star for 5th award, medal is maxed out

 

**Note**

? combat medals are only for single missions

? highest medal is awarded for the points earned in a mission

? if the mission fails, no medals regardless of points earned

 

 

ARM TABS

 

Arm tabs are awarded solely based upon increases in an operatives? Stats.  When they reach a certain point, they receive one.  However, so that there aren?t 8 different tabs, an operative must reach a certain level in a combination of Stats to receive the award.  The upgrades are represented as a graphical enhancement to the original tab, not another tab added to the shadow box.  Likewise, the tabs are cumulative, so receiving the Commando Tab does not replace the Marksman Tab in the shadow box ? they both are in it.  Here is the breakdown:

 

Marksman Tab

? received for reaching 70% accuracy

? upgraded to Expert Marksman at 75% accuracy

? upgraded to Master Marksman at 85% accuracy

 

Reconnaissance 3rd Class Tab

? TU?s exceeding 75 units

? upgraded to Reconnaissance 2nd Class Tab at 80 units

? upgraded to Reconnaissance Force Operative Tab at 85 units

 

Heavy Weapons 3rd Class Tab

? must have received Marksman or higher and Strength must exceed 55 units

? upgrade to Heavy Weapons 2nd Class when Expert Marksman or higher and Strength exceeds 60 units

? upgrade to Heavy Weapons Operator when Master Marksman and Strength exceeds 65 units

 

Commando Tab

? Must have already received Marksman Tab or higher

? Must have already received Reconnaissance Tab or higher

? Must have already received Heavy Weapons Operator Patch or higher

 

Cognitive 3rd Class Tab (or maybe COG OPS Patch)

? been in Psi training for months

? upgrades to Cognitive 2nd Class when Psi Control reaches 60%

? upgrades to Cognitive 1nd Class when Psi Control reaches 70%

? upgrades to Cognitive Operative when Psi Control reaches 80%

 

So, please post comments. Also, for the programmers, I think this pretty much sums up what data would need to be collected in the BattleScape.

 

Gold

[hippyjon]

that all sounds good to me, only thing i can suggest is that the top grade arm tabs should be higher, so its harder to move from 2nd>1st class than it is from 3rd>2nd

 

(edited after GGs post)

Edited July 10, 2003 by hippyjon

[GreatGold]

So your saying to switch the order? As it stands now, the 3rd Class is the easiest one, then the next hardest to get is 2nd Class, and then the hardest to recieve is the 1st Class. So if I read you right, your're suggesting to switch them from "3-->2-->1" to "1-->2-->3"? Its a thought, but I don't know if thats how its done in the realworld. Anyone know?

 

Gold

[hippyjon]

errrr, no thats not what i was meant (not used to that military way of numbering things, and most arnet numbered in the doc), i just ment that the hardest one to get should be significantley harder to get than the rest

[GreatGold]

Ohhhh, so your vote is for harder! Have you looked at the point system yet?! If so your cruel... !

[hippyjon]

hehe yeh, i thought id wait till testing before i said anything about that

actually are those points calculated the same way they are in the game, so basicaly you get x points for a kill and more for a stun? (cant get wordpad to load the thing so i cant see the tables)

[GreatGold]

Hmmm -

 

Your're the second person to say that about wordpad. What program do you use? I may change formats if anyone else reports trouble.

 

To answer your question, no. Its a completely new system, and a completey tentative one at that. I think it will definatley get changed a bit before anything is finalized.

 

Gold

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

I have to say that I think it looks pretty good. The various items cover the sort of things we wanted to award. I do feel that the point system will have to be playtested....but since that's not likely to happen for a year or so at the soonest, I vote we lock it, and take a look at after it's been tested.

 

-The Captain

[[[Micah]]]

I agree with the Captain. Lock it and move on to completing more of the xnet entries so we can include them in the next release.

[Kenshiro]

I agree with Red Knight that this isn't a priority thread, and I agree with the Captain on the holding off on little tweaks until it can be playtested. On the other hand, what could be discussed with little mispent effort are the concepts here in general:

 

- Having a point system adjusted based on various factors and which ones to include

- Scale of difficulty for getting certain awards

- Methods of figuring out when to award

 

That's the point of this discussion. We've got the scope of this idea pretty much fleshed out already, we just want to run it out for sanity checking.

Edited July 10, 2003 by Kenshiro

[GreatGold]

On the the N-Net then. I await the project with anticipation ....

 

So lets put this on hold for now, as we have what we need for the most part. The thread will remain open for disccusion though.

 

Gold

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

Here is v1.03 of the design doc, with some corrections by Kenshiro. Really, the only things left with the Awards and Decorations (not involving graphical work), is hammering down the specific numbers. Once that is finished, only the point system is left for the Combat Medals.

 

Any thoughts?

Gold

ADDDv103.doc

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

Only two comments from me, really. Firstly, I think that psi training/marksmenship awards should follow the 3-2-1 standard, rather than 1-2-3. Also, I think that 100 is way too high for the stat awards...I don't think I've ever seen a soldier with 100 in any stat. Maybe make the top award for 90+. It will still be hard, but not ridiculously so.

 

Other than that though, I think it looks pretty good. Nice work guys!

 

-The Captain

 

Edit: Typos

Edited July 12, 2003 by Cpt. Boxershorts

[GreatGold]

I think that psi training/marksmenship awards should follow the 3-2-1 standard, rather than 1-2-3.

Good catch, I missed that completely.

 

Also, I think that 100 is way too high for the stat awards...I don't think I've ever seen a soldier with 100 in any stat. Maybe make the top award for 90+. It will still be hard, but not ridiculously so.

Yeah, I think that needs to be toned down a bit also. I'd like to see some other peoples comments first though.

 

Gold

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

What, you mean my opinion isn't the final say around here?

[miceless]

I think even 90 is quite high. I mean, if its going to be like xcom1, then 80 was the max TUs you could get right? Are we implementing similar max stat lvls?

[GreatGold]

I think even 90 is quite high. I mean, if its going to be like xcom1, then 80 was the max TUs you could get right? Are we implementing similar max stat lvls

I wasn't aware that there was a mac TU limit. If there is, then this changes things. Can someone verify this? Also, if there is, then I guess we need to know if this is being kept for v1.

 

Gold

[miceless]

I swear there was for XCom. My soldiers never went above 80 (well, they went over 80 by one or two, but once over 80 they never went any higher).

 

im not sure about about other stats, as I dont remember so well, but im fairly sure about the TUs.

[Kenshiro]

According to the stat display in the X-Com soldier display and the stat editor in the ClarkWehyr X-Com editor, the maximum your solider can have is 80 base score (a typical superhigh score for thier random generator was around 70 though) plus up to 80 acrued additional stat points which are upped in increments of 1-3 for each mission based on factors that were never very clear. So yeah, our stat based ribbons are really high up there assuming the same mission rates and baseline scores as X-Com.

 

Implementing training to improve stats other than Psi would alleviate this issue and is planned for V1+. For now I agree we should decrease those percentages.

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

Ok, I'll change the TU ammounts to address this. Does anyone know about the other attributes, though? Specifically Strength, Psi, and Accuracy?

 

Thanks,

Gold

[miceless]

I dont remember seeing people with str anything like 80 odd, but maybe thats because i never used heavy weapons.

 

Accuracy? About the same as TUs i think, or maybe even higher.

[Kenshiro]

All the stats have the same limits and parameters, except for bravery which for some reason can only reach base score plus 70. The difference between them was in the initial random numbers, which I feel (but don't know for certain) had different probabilities in their random generators. Again, the ClarkWehyr X-Com editor doesn't distinguish between the score maximums for anything except bravery and the soldier screen has no problem with a maxed out soldier bumped up using the editor.

 

On the other hand if you wanted to find out what the real average base scores were, I'd suggest using the editor, giving yourself a few billion dollars or so, filling up a base with living quarters and hiring a few hundred soldiers. Then you could get averages, means, mins, and maxes and figure it out. I'm sure there are probably statistical trends for each of the scores, but then again, it's been a long time since I took my college discrete math class and I'm probably not the man to figure it out.

[red knight]

A friend of mine had a soldier (not hacked) that had almost 200 Tu or more, the point is that the bar started to the left part of the screen (over the name) once it has consumed the right space... So more time units is posible..

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[miceless]

On the other hand if you wanted to find out what the real average base scores were, I'd suggest using the editor, giving yourself a few billion dollars or so, filling up a base with living quarters and hiring a few hundred soldiers. Then you could get averages, means, mins, and maxes and figure it out.  I'm sure there are probably statistical trends for each of the scores, but then again, it's been a long time since I took my college discrete math class and I'm probably not the man to figure it out.

I suppose thats one way to do it, but Stats was never my strongest subject. However, its just the simple stuff so maybe i could manage it.

 

Would it actually be of any use?

[Nickisimo]

TU's...i think i had an 84 once...and that was a scout with tons of kills and experience.

STR rarely goes over 50 or 60.

Firing Accuracy can get to 90(in rare cases).

I was thinking all of this when I saw the up to 160 thing in the graphic, but I didn't want to rock the boat. Besides, I thought it was part of a new gameplay design or something.

[Kenshiro]

The stat graphics are actually taken right from XCOM but styled to match the rest of our look, but a good question to ask ourselves is, "why are they like that in the first place?" My feeling is that the original team probably started out with higher stats at some point in the design process and ended up with lower ones after testing and balancing.

 

Our cutoffs should reflect the stats that actually happen in the game, so maybe a good way to balance would be to look at some starting stats for brand new rookies from a new game, then glance through a save game from somewhere near the end where you've got a commander and a number of seasoned colonels, and figure out a rough guess for the stat ranges a player would see if they stuck it out long enough to finish the game. Figure the the award scores on that.

 

Though my comments in previous posts may be contrary to this, after thinking about it for awhile I don't think we actually need to get math-based statistics to get the balance right. Whatever we decide on will probably need to change when we test the game anyway, so let's just give it a pretty good guess and go from there.

[miceless]

Does someone need to go ahead and look at that then? I think i have savegames from the ends if games, but not the equivelent ones from the start. Or did you mean to just start a new game and look at the rookies in there? I guess you dont have to have a past and present version of the same soldier to get a genreal idea.

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

Just thought up something we left out: posthumous awards. I suppose if your soldier gets enough points for a combat medal, but then dies, he should still get it in the awards screen. Just to bad he's dead an all...

 

Perhaps someone could make a X-CORP flag image, that is placed in a soldiers shadow box when he is killed. Something simple that just makes note that he is gone and dead...

 

Gold

[Nickisimo]

That or maybe a final screen that is accessable when browsing over soldiers that are KIA or MIA. It could show their career stats, awards, mission they died on, etc.

[Kenshiro]

In most militaries there is no special award for being killed, although getting killed weighs in heavily in determining what decoration to award. Usually, reference to the individual making "the ultimate sacrifice in service to his country" or some other lofty phrasing for buying the farm goes into the citation, and the medal is upgraded to the highest possible decoration for the action.

 

In cold hard terms for our decorations system, I think we need to throw in an extra 10-15 points or so into the medal calculation for getting killed. Other than that, there needn't be any special notation, save maybe for putting in the birth and death dates on the placard ("Sgt Iam Dead 1988-2016").

 

As for a special flag or something, an organization like X-Corps, being secret and all, would probably go along the lines of the CIA route of honoring its dead - placing a star on the wall with no name beside it in the understanding that what they were doing when they got killed "didn't actually happen." No flag, no funeral, no letter home - except maybe one about an unfortunate motorcycle accident or training mishap.

[miceless]

As for a special flag or something, an organization like X-Corps, being secret and all, would probably go along the lines of the CIA route of honoring its dead - placing a star on the wall with no name beside it in the understanding that what they were doing when they got killed "didn't actually happen."  No flag, no funeral, no letter home - except maybe one about an unfortunate motorcycle accident or training mishap.

Publicly, yes, the above is great. But theres no reason why the highly secure X-Net database shouldnt have a record of the operatives killed in the field. Being the commander an all, one would expect to have access to it.

[Kenshiro]

I'm not saying the commander wouldn't have any access to it, I just think there wouldn't be any kind of special ceremony or such given that it's wartime and a secret organization. The personnel jacket would have all the details, and I think the sorting options in the X-Net Operatives screen would have a choice to view active soldiers, KIA/MIA troops, all of the above, etc.

[miceless]

Sorry, mild misunderstanding.

 

Yes, no special ceremony, but that doesnt mean (s)he couldnt be given a medal postumously (sp?). And their full record would still be kept on file.

[Kenshiro]

They would almost certainly get a medal posthumously. Thus the extra points for getting killed (likely bumping the medal up a few notches or earning one if the troop was too short on points to get anything. At minimum they would be getting the blood cross, so that's something.

 

And there would definately be an entry about it in their personnel jacket.

[miceless]

Right, excellent.