CTD - NEUDARs (Short and Large Range)

[Darkhomb]

I think they fit. though you will need to change the text to say 2. Though they also look the same size as the other tanks so you might want to lose the 20 percent unless they really wont know but the double-layer of extremely sensitive PMTs (PhotoMultiplier Tubes) work for that.

[Astyanax]

I like it! (I especially liked the trademark you put on Eagle-Eye Sensory Dish )

 

There is one thing, though, but I could be mistaken. I think I remember seeing a schematic of the different heights of the facilities... wasn't the radar/neudar at ground level? I can't find that schematic now, though...

[Vaaish]

I like it!  (I especially liked the trademark you put on Eagle-Eye Sensory Dish )

 

There is one thing, though, but I could be mistaken.  I think I remember seeing a schematic of the different heights of the facilities... wasn't the radar/neudar at ground level?  I can't find that schematic now, though...

 

its hidden in the base facilities archived threads. But to answe your question, no it wasn't at ground level....it was closer to the surface though.

[kafros]

So, I just have to correct the LR-NEUDAR, and we are ready?

 

ASTY!!! I AM IN NEED OF YOUR HYPER-ULTRA-PROOFREADING SKILLZ!!!

[Guest Azrael]

Been in bed almost all day, finally can get up again , though still feel like crap..., oh well, since you asked, let's proofread!

-------

SHORT RANGE NEUDAR FACILITY

X-Net://Pegasus.net/Base/Facilities/Short Range NEUDAR

 

The Short Range NEUtrino Detection ARray is the only reliable UFO detection system we can currently count on. X-Corps is the first military force to implement the use of NEUDARs, and as such, is the only combat force with the ability to effectively detect and counter the Alien invaders vessels.

I suggest changing invaders to vessels as the NEUDARs only help X-Corps with the aerial detection of aliens, on the ground, technically any other military force could detect them

“We have a neutrino-eye / looking at the sky!”

- Dr. Steven Rosenberg, a great fan of poetry great poetry fan.

 

Records have shown that UFOs have means are capable of evading detection by conventional radars. It was speculated that the reason behind this was the very nature of the Alien construction materials. As result, when the Alien ship incursions increased in both hostility as well as frequency, it proved important vital to develop an effective means of their detection to detect them.

 

During a documented UFO sighting in Japan, the Super-Kamiokande neutrino detector recorded an unprecedented increase in neutrino detection levels. The scientists were amazed to discover that the neutrino source was right at the position of the Alien sighting. Further research into this eventuation event revealed that many other neutrino detectors recorded congruent increase in neutrino detection rates during time periods that corresponded to those of reported UFO sightings. This immediately triggered a renewed interest in the development of a neutrino detection array specifically designed to detect and track UFOs.

 

The SR-NEUDAR consists of two RICH (Ring Imaging CHerenkov detector) shouldn't it be "RICHD"? sensors, which are large; spherical tanks filled with dense heavy water and lined with extremely sensitive PMTPhotoMultiplier Tubes sensors. These PhotoMultiplier Tubes PTMs You should explain what a PTM is, I have no clue... have been extremely optimized. They are not only much tinier, but also more sensitive than common PMTs. Thus, a small but very practical tank model was created. When highly charged neutrinos enter the individual tanks, Cherenkov radiation bursts out in light cones, which are detected and provide the needed information for calculating from where the neutrinos originated. Then, by combining data from the two tanks, the position of the source can then be estimated according to the Doppler Effect. While there is no maximum range at which neutrinos can be detected, the number of neutrinos from any one source that can be detected by the NEUDAR decreases exponentially as the distance increases due to noise from cosmic and atmospheric radiation. As such, the NEUDAR system is limited by the range at which neutrino emitted by UFOs fade into the background noise. In addition to neutrino detection, a high-tech dish detects Infrared radiation, which aids in the identification of the target. All the collected information are is then sent into the main console, which computes the data in real-time and provides a user-friendly visual output, which includes UFO positions on the globe map simulation. The NEUDAR operator is able to do operational checks, execute maintenance routines and change setup parameters through the console.

 

The construction of additional NEUDARs can increase the sensitivity of the entire NEUDAR network as a whole as well as speed up the detection of the source. This is because the addition of tanks not only increases the chances of detecting a neutrino burst, but also provides additional directional data which, besides being used for the calculation of the source, is also a source of data verification.

 

Because NEUDARs are located underground and are based on passive detection, they prove to be undetectable to external sources. This is a valuable asset, as it will prevent the Alien invaders from locating our bases with ease. A design for large NEUDARs has been completed recently and has both improved detection rates as well as increased detection range.

 

"That many neutrino detectors detected increased rates of neutrino detector... detraction... detracted... ARGH!"

- Tongue-tied scientist during Xenocide Technical Briefing

----------

 

I like what you did with this one

Edited December 27, 2005 by Azrael

[kafros]

Wonderful comments Az! You've really read my mind and corrected exactly the things I didn't like much

=======

 

SHORT RANGE NEUDAR FACILITY

X-Net://Pegasus.net/Base/Facilities/Short Range NEUDAR

 

The Short Range NEUtrino Detection ARray is the only reliable UFO detection system we can currently count on. X-Corps is the first military force to implement the use of NEUDARs, and as such, is the only combat force with the ability to effectively detect and counter the Alien vessels.

Actually, that was my intention, and vessels is a great alternative to "ships". That was the source of the confusion :wink1:

“We have a neutrino-eye / looking at the sky!”

- Dr. Steven Rosenberg, great poetry fan.

 

Records have shown that UFOs are capable of evading detection by conventional radars. It was speculated that the reason behind this was the very nature of the Alien construction materials. As result, when the Alien ship incursions increased in both hostility as well as frequency, it proved vital to develop an effective means to detect them.

 

During a documented UFO sighting in Japan, the Super-Kamiokande neutrino detector recorded an unprecedented increase in neutrino levels. The scientists were amazed to discover that the neutrino source was right at the position of the Alien sighting. Further research into this event revealed that many other neutrino detectors recorded congruent increase in neutrino detection rates during time periods that corresponded to those of reported UFO sightings. This immediately triggered a renewed interest in the development of a neutrino detection array specifically designed to detect and track UFOs.

 

The SR-NEUDAR consists of two RICH (Ring Imaging CHerenkov detector) No, it's RICH sensors, have a look at the wikipedia links I provided sensors; spherical tanks filled with dense heavy water and lined with extremely sensitive PhotoMultiplier Tubes sensors. These PMTs have been extremely optimized, so even the slightest amount of Cherenkov radiation is easily detected and amplified by the PMTs before being sent to the console. Thus, a small but very practical tank model was created. When highly charged neutrinos enter the individual tanks, Cherenkov radiation bursts out in light cones. These are detected by the ultra sensitive PMTs, and then the signal is amplified. Then, by combining data from the two tanks, the origin of the source can then be estimated according to the Doppler Effect. While there is no maximum range at which neutrinos can be detected, the number of neutrinos from any one source that can be detected by the NEUDAR decreases exponentially as the distance increases due to noise from cosmic and atmospheric radiation. As such, the NEUDAR system is limited by the range at which neutrino emitted by UFOs fade into the background noise. In addition to neutrino detection, a high-tech dish detects Infrared radiation, which aids in the identification of the target. All the collected information is then sent to the main console, which computes the data in real-time and provides a user-friendly visual output, which includes UFO positions on the globe map simulation. The NEUDAR operator is able to do operational checks, execute maintenance routines and change setup parameters through the console.

 

The construction of additional NEUDARs can increase the sensitivity of the entire NEUDAR network as a whole as well as speed up the detection of the source. This is because the addition of tanks not only increases the chances of detecting a neutrino burst, but also provides additional directional data which, besides being used for the calculation of the source, is also a source of data verification.

 

Because NEUDARs are located underground and are based on passive detection, they prove to be undetectable to external sources. This is a valuable asset, as it will prevent the Alien invaders from locating our bases with ease. A design for large NEUDARs has been completed recently and has both improved detection rates as well as increased detection range.

 

"That many neutrino detectors detected increased rates of neutrino detector... detraction... detracted... ARGH!"

- Tongue-tied scientist during Xenocide Technical Briefing

Edited December 27, 2005 by kafros

[Astyanax]

Az, you did a fine job proofreading! I hope you get better soon!

 

Here are comments/suggestions (in red) from me, kafros.

SHORT RANGE NEUDAR FACILITY

X-Net://Pegasus.net/Base/Facilities/Short Range NEUDAR

 

The Short Range NEUtrino Detection ARray is the only reliable UFO detection system we can currently count depend? on. X-Corps is the first military force to implement the use of NEUDAR technology, and as such, is the only combat force with the ability to effectively detect and counter the Alien vessels.

 

“We have a neutrino-eye / looking at the sky!”

- Dr. Steven Rosenberg, great poetry fan.

 

Records have shown that UFOs are capable of evading detection by conventional radars. It was speculated that the reason behind this was the very nature of the Alien construction materials. As a result, when the Alien ship incursions increased in both hostility as well as frequency, it proved vital to develop an effective means to detect them.

 

During a documented UFO sighting in Japan, the Super-Kamiokande neutrino detector recorded an unprecedented increase in neutrino levels. The scientists were amazed to discover that the neutrino source was right at coincided with the position of the Alien sighting. Further research into this event ("this event" corresponds to the Japan sighting, but the rest of the sentence is about other sightings) revealed that many other neutrino detectors recorded congruent increases in neutrino detection rates during time periods that corresponded to those of reported UFO sightings. This immediately triggered a renewed interest in the development of a neutrino detection array specifically designed to detect and track UFOs.

 

(The following paragraph has been rearranged; moved text is in blue.  The parts about the PMTs were repeated twice.)

The SR-NEUDAR consists of two RICH (Ring Imaging CHerenkov detector) sensors; spherical tanks filled with dense heavy water and lined with extremely sensitive PhotoMultiplier Tubes (PMTs) sensors. When highly charged neutrinos enter the individual tanks, Cherenkov radiation bursts out in light cones. These are detected by the ultra sensitive PMTs, and then the signal is amplified and These PMTs have been extremely optimized, so even the slightest amount of Cherenkov radiation is easily detected and amplified by the PMTs before being sent to the console. Thus, a small but very practical tank model was created. Then, bBy combining data from the two tanks, the origin of the source neutrino radiation can then be estimated extrapolated? according to the Doppler Effect. While there is no maximum range at from which neutrinos can be detected, the number of detectable neutrinos from any one source that can be detected by the NEUDAR decreases exponentially as the distance increases due to noise from cosmic and atmospheric radiation. As such, the NEUDAR system is limited by the range at which neutrinos emitted by UFOs fade into the background noise. In addition to neutrino detection, a high-tech dish detects Infrared radiation, which aids assists? in the identification of the target. All the collected information is then sent to the main console, which computes the data in real-time and provides a user-friendly visual output, which includes UFO positions on the globe map simulation. The NEUDAR operator is able to do operational checks, execute maintenance routines and change setup parameters through the console.

 

The construction of additional NEUDARs can increase the sensitivity of the entire NEUDAR network as a whole as well as improve detection speeds? speed up the detection of the source. This is because the addition of tanks not only increases the chances of detecting a neutrino burst, but also provides additional directional data which, besides being used for triangulation purposes? the calculation of the source, is also a source of data verification.

 

Because NEUDARs are located underground and are based on passive detection, they prove to be undetectable to external sources. This is a valuable asset, as it will prevent the Alien invaders from locating our bases with ease. A design for large NEUDARs has been completed recently and has both improved detection rates as well as increased detection range.

 

"That many neutrino detectors detected increased rates of neutrino detector... detraction... detracted... ARGH!"

- Tongue-tied scientist during Xenocide Technical Briefing

Edited December 27, 2005 by Astyanax

[Moriarty]

hmmm... I hate to interrupt this text, as it is moving along great, but the art department refused to re-think the NEUDAR models, so we kind of have to explain the huge antenna dishes that exist in the models.

 

since neutrinos can't be reflected using any kind of surface, we will probably have to say that the parabolic antennas detect something else, which jeopardizes the name "NEUDAR" itself... I've been thinking about this for a while, and the only thing I can think of (and I think I posted this somewhere before) is that the antennas don't detect neutrinos, but other particles emanating from the alien vessels. this is, however, not what enables us to detect the UFOs, but just our means of tracking them. the detection is indeed accomplished using neutrino detection in spherical tanks (in the models there are two spheres in corners of the room that are so far supposed to be capacitors, but if we have to re-define them, noone is going to kill us, I guess).

 

any comments to that?

[kafros]

since neutrinos can't be reflected using any kind of surface, we will probably have to say that the parabolic antennas detect something else, which jeopardizes the name "NEUDAR" itself... I've been thinking about this for a while, and the only thing I can think of (and I think I posted this somewhere before) is that the antennas don't detect neutrinos, but other particles emanating from the alien vessels. this is, however, not what enables us to detect the UFOs, but just our means of tracking them. the detection is indeed accomplished using neutrino detection in spherical tanks (in the models there are two spheres in corners of the room that are so far supposed to be capacitors, but if we have to re-define them, noone is going to kill us, I guess).

In addition to neutrino detection, a high-tech dish detects Infrared radiation, which aids assists? in the identification of the target

 

The spheres detect neutrinos, and the antenna checks whether the source is a vessels or something else. In case it is a vessels, it tracks it down.

 

I can't see any major problem with that... The only problem that pops to my mind is whether IR radiation can enter the underground base. If it can't, then our Eagle-Eye will detect Roentgen radiation (X-Rays), or even γ rays . How does that sound?

 

 

We don't ask the ART Department to change anything. The only thing that they MIGHT need to change is the size of the spheres in the LR-NEUDAR model, which isn't sure either, we may also find a way around that

Edited December 28, 2005 by kafros

[kafros]

SHORT RANGE NEUDAR FACILITY

X-Net://Pegasus.net/Base/Facilities/Short Range NEUDAR

 

The Short Range Neutrino Detection Array is the only reliable UFO detection system we can currently depend on. X-Corps is the first military force to implement NEUDAR technology, and as such, is the only combat force with the ability to effectively detect and counter the Alien vessels.

 

“We have a neutrino-eye / looking at the sky!”

- Dr. Steven Rosenberg, great poetry fan.

 

Records have shown that UFOs are capable of evading detection by conventional radars. It was speculated that the reason behind this was the very nature of the Alien construction materials. As a result, when the Alien ship incursions increased in both hostility as well as frequency, it proved vital to develop an effective means to detect them.

 

During a documented UFO sighting in Japan, the Super-Kamiokande neutrino detector recorded an unprecedented increase in neutrino levels. The scientists were amazed to discover that the neutrino source coincided with the position of the Alien sighting. Further research into this event (I meant that due to this event, scientists were more interested in the neutrino detection stuff. Then, by luck, they found out that other neutrino detectors also noticed similar events) revealed that other neutrino detectors recorded congruent increases in neutrino detection rates during time periods that corresponded to those of reported UFO sightings. This immediately triggered a renewed interest in the development of a neutrino detection array specifically designed to detect and track UFOs.

 

The SR-NEUDAR consists of two RICH (Ring Imaging Cherenkov detector) sensors; spherical tanks filled with dense heavy water and lined with extremely sensitive Photomultiplier Tube sensors. When highly charged neutrinos enter the individual tanks, Cherenkov radiation bursts out in light cones. These are detected by the ultra sensitive PMTs, and then the signal is amplified and sent to the console. Thus, a small but very practical tank model was created. By combining data from the two tanks, the origin of the neutrino radiation can then be extrapolated according to the Doppler Effect. While there is no maximum range from which neutrinos can be detected, the number of detectable neutrinos from any one source decreases exponentially as the distance increases due to noise from cosmic and atmospheric radiation. As such, the range at which neutrinos emitted by UFOs fade into the background noise limits the NEUDAR system’s potential. In addition to neutrino detection, an Eagle-Eye Sensory Dish™ detects Roentgen radiation, which assists in the identification of the target. If the target is identified as an Alien vessel, then the system automatically marks it to be tracked by the console’s hardware. All the collected information is then sent to the main console, which computes the data in real-time and provides a user-friendly visual output, which includes UFO positions on the globe map simulation. The NEUDAR operator is able to do operational checks, execute maintenance routines and change setup parameters through the console.

 

The construction of additional NEUDARs can increase the sensitivity of the entire NEUDAR network as a whole as well as improve detection speeds. This is because the addition of tanks not only increases the chances of detecting a neutrino burst, but also provides additional directional data that, besides being used for triangulation purposes, is also a source of data verification.

Damn, I had a wrong view about triangulation... I DO have 2 point, the tanks, and the third point is the vessel... stupidstupidstupid

 

Because NEUDARs are located underground and are based on passive detection, they prove to be undetectable to external sources. This is a valuable asset, as it will prevent the Alien invaders from locating our bases with ease. A design for large NEUDARs has been completed recently and has both improved detection rates as well as increased detection range.

 

"That many neutrino detectors detected increased rates of neutrino detector... detraction... detracted... d’oh!"

- Tongue-tied scientist during Xenocide Technical Briefing

 

------------

 

Some in-depth changes will be made in the LR NEUDAR. For example, more information/new name for the dish, the system's operation etc...

Edited December 28, 2005 by kafros

[Astyanax]

(I meant that due to this event, scientists were more interested in the neutrino detection stuff. Then, by luck, they found out that other neutrino detectors also noticed similar events)

May I suggest phenomenon instead?

 

When reading the "The SR-NEUDAR consists of..." paragraph, I thought it was a little strange that there is no mention of the Eagle-Eye in the beginning; the SR-NEUDAR consists of 2 RICH sensors and an Eagle-Eye sensory dish:

The SR-NEUDAR consists of two RICH (Ring Imaging Cherenkov detector) sensors and an X-ray detector.  The RICH sensors are spherical tanks filled with dense heavy water and lined with extremely sensitive Photomultiplier Tube sensors.

I wonder if we should use X-rays instead of Roentgen radiation- more people know what that is...?

 

Otherwise, everything looks good.

[Vaaish]

"RICH (Ring Imaging Cherenkov detector) sensors"

 

Isn't that a little redundant? Detector=sensors possibly drop detector and just leave the rest refering to the methodology behind the sensor.

[Guest Azrael]

"RICH (Ring Imaging Cherenkov detector) sensors"

 

Isn't that a little redundant? Detector=sensors possibly drop detector and just leave the rest refering to the methodology behind the sensor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, it's redundant.

[kafros]

SHORT RANGE NEUDAR FACILITY

X-Net://Pegasus.net/Base/Facilities/Short Range NEUDAR

 

The Short Range Neutrino Detection Array is the only reliable UFO detection system we can currently depend on. X-Corps is the first military force to implement NEUDAR technology, and as such, is the only combat force with the ability to effectively detect and counter the Alien vessels.

 

“We have a neutrino-eye / looking at the sky!”

- Dr. Steven Rosenberg, great poetry fan.

 

Records have shown that UFOs are capable of evading detection by conventional radars. It was speculated that the reason behind this was the very nature of the Alien construction materials. As a result, when the Alien ship incursions increased in both hostility as well as frequency, it proved vital to develop an effective means to detect them.

 

During a documented UFO sighting in Japan, the Super-Kamiokande neutrino detector recorded an unprecedented increase in neutrino levels. The scientists were amazed to discover that the neutrino source coincided with the position of the Alien sighting. Further research into this phenomenon revealed that other neutrino detectors recorded congruent increases in neutrino detection rates during time periods that corresponded to those of reported UFO sightings. This immediately triggered a renewed interest in the development of a neutrino detection array specifically designed to detect and track UFOs.

 

The SR-NEUDAR consists of two RICH (Ring Imaging Cherenkov radiation) sensors and an X-ray detector. The RICH sensors are spherical tanks filled with dense heavy water and lined have their interior covered with extremely sensitive Photomultiplier Tube sensors. When highly charged neutrinos enter the individual tanks, Cherenkov radiation bursts out in light cones. These are detected by the ultra sensitive PMTs, and then the signal is amplified and before being sent to the console. Thus, a very small but very nevertheless practical tank model was created. By combining data from the two tanks, the origin of the neutrino radiation can then be extrapolated according to the Doppler Effect. While there is no maximum range from which neutrinos can be detected, the number of detectable neutrinos from any one source decreases exponentially as the distance increases due to noise from cosmic and atmospheric radiation. As such, the range at which neutrinos emitted by UFOs fade into the background noise limits the NEUDAR system’s potential. In addition to neutrino detection, an Eagle-Eye Sensory Dish™ detects X-Ray radiation, which assists in the identification of the target. If the target is identified as an Alien vessel, then the system automatically marks it to be tracked by the console’s hardware. All the collected information is then sent to the main console, which computes the data in real-time and provides a user-friendly visual output, which includes UFO positions on the globe map simulation. The NEUDAR operator is able to do operational checks, execute maintenance routines and change setup parameters through the console.

 

The construction of additional NEUDARs can increase the sensitivity of the entire NEUDAR network as a whole as well as improve detection speeds. This is because the addition of tanks not only increases the chances of detecting a neutrino burst, but also provides additional directional data that, besides being used for triangulation purposes, is also a source of data verification.

 

Because NEUDARs are located underground and are based on passive detection, they prove to be undetectable to external sources. This is a valuable asset, as it will prevent the Alien invaders from locating our bases with ease. A design for large NEUDARs has been completed recently and has both improved detection rates as well as increased detection range.

 

"That many neutrino detectors detected increased rates of neutrino detector... detraction... detracted... d’oh!"

- Tongue-tied scientist during Xenocide Technical Briefing

 

"RICH (Ring Imaging Cherenkov detector) sensors"

 

Isn't that a little redundant? Detector=sensors possibly drop detector and just leave the rest refering to the methodology behind the sensor.

Missed my attention

I wonder if we should use X-rays instead of Roentgen radiation- more people know what that is...?

Well, Roentgen was the original name, and now they tend to call it "X-Ray... Same problem with "α particles" and "high-speed helium atoms"... Ok, let it be X-Ray, although Roentgen sounds better

[[Mad]]

Sorry, no time right now, I will read it completely later. This just hit my eye:

RICH (Ring Imaging Cherenkov radiation)

Maybe insert an "of". "Ring Imaging of Cherenkov radiation"

 

The RICH sensors are spherical tanks filled with dense heavy water and have their interior covered with extremely sensitive Photomultiplier Tube sensors

 

Maybe: "The RICH sensor array is realized by extremely sensitive Photomultiplier Tube sensors covering the inner wall of two spherical tanks filled with dense heavy water."

 

When highly charged neutrinos enter the individual tanks, Cherenkov radiation bursts out in light cones. These are detected by the ultra sensitive PMTs, and then the signal is amplified and before being sent to the console.

 

Maybe: "When highly charged neutrinos enter the individual tanks, Cherenkov radiation bursts out in light cones which are detected by the ultra sensitive PMTs. After amplifying the signal in highly specialized low noise transistor amplifier, the signals are digitalized, encoded with time stamp and sensor coordinates, multiplexed and sent to the central console for further processing."

Edited December 30, 2005 by Mad

[Qonfused]

wait, how could 100*100*100 feet detector, detect enough neutrinos to pinpoint ufo's.

i cant remember how big Super-Kamiokande is, but its like miles across, and only a slight fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the neutrionos that pass through it gets deceted.

[[Mad]]

wait, how could 100*100*100 feet detector, detect enough neutrinos to pinpoint ufo's.

i cant remember how big Super-Kamiokande is, but its like miles across, and only a slight fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the neutrionos that pass through it gets deceted.

It crossed my mind.. This is a problem. But do you have a better explanation for those "eggs" in the corners? Let's just say these are highly sophistiated sensors...

The big problem with all of this is, that a) you would need a mountain to get rid of all the other particles creating cherenkov radiation, neutrinos merely interact with anything - that's why you need the big tank. So couldn't we "develop" some new wonderfluid which only interacts with neutrinos and that veeery efficient? I have to admit, that there is no physical proof whatsoever that such a liquid could possibly exist...

[Guest Azrael]

wait, how could 100*100*100 feet detector, detect enough neutrinos to pinpoint ufo's.

i cant remember how big Super-Kamiokande is, but its like miles across, and only a slight fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the neutrionos that pass through it gets deceted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It crossed my mind.. This is a problem. But do you have a better explanation for those "eggs" in the corners? Let's just say these are highly sophistiated sensors...

The big problem with all of this is, that a) you would need a mountain to get rid of all the other particles creating cherenkov radiation, neutrinos merely interact with anything - that's why you need the big tank. So couldn't we "develop" some new wonderfluid which only interacts with neutrinos and that veeery efficient? I have to admit, that there is no physical proof whatsoever that such a liquid could possibly exist...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is what science fiction is all about, even if the Super Kamiokande is miles over miles large, there is no reason as to why X-Corps' NEUDARs can't be small, this is fiction Don't worry about it so much.

[Moriarty]

afaik, the relevant thing is the amount of atoms in the detector (so the neutrinos have something to hit). they only use water so they can detect the light flashes the neutrinos create when they hit something. if we use something of considerably higher density (like, for example, mercury or lead or perhaps gold), the hitting-an-atom part becomes reasonable again. if we have a superheavy compound that does not flash light but perhaps gives off tiny electrical discharges, then arrange it in some kind of conductivity-grid pattern on a molecular level, we are on the "possible" side again

[tzuchan]

afaik, the relevant thing is the amount of atoms in the detector (so the neutrinos have something to hit). they only use water so they can detect the light flashes the neutrinos create when they hit something. if we use something of considerably higher density (like, for example, mercury or lead or perhaps gold), the hitting-an-atom part becomes reasonable again. if we have a superheavy compound that does not flash light but perhaps gives off tiny electrical discharges, then arrange it in some kind of conductivity-grid pattern on a molecular level, we are on the "possible" side again

And then there's the problem of how to detect the faint light of cherenkov radiation through solid matter... But... Does neutrinos generate electrical pulses when they pass through conductive material?

 

I say we leave it be. Afterall, might it not be possible that since the ufos are so much closer than most neutrino generating events and generate it on a much higher scale, that they stand out like a candle in a dimly lit room? Also, don't forget that the NEUDARs aren't supposed to be 100% successful at detecting ufos and that the current size is likely to be a design compromise between ease of construction, detection ability, costs and concealability.

[Qonfused]

i guess the current idea is useable, even though everyone who knows what a neutrino is will shake their heads at this.

who's idea was it to use neutrinos?

the old xcom text explains it as communications, and neutrino used in communications makes no sense.

 

oh, and

"...then be extrapolated according to the Doppler Effect..."

Could you remove this? Its just wrong on so many levels.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Qonfused

[kafros]

*AHEM*

This is definitely incomplete, as I have to provide better explanation for the operation of the device and why we don't need some 500 tons of heavy water as a normal neutrino detector needs

 

Neutrino Detection

Cherenkov Radiation

Super-Kamiokande

 

1) I don't know if the original xcom array was used for communications, this one was supposed to be a detector, and that's what I made it do

2) As you can see at the quote above, that was my first concern. That's why I tried to put words like "optimized PMTs", "Double layer of PMTs", "dense heavy water", "underground base" etc...

 

It seems that no-one noticed the above links, so I will provide some quotes:

 

Super-K is located 1,000 m underground in Mozumi Mine of the Kamioka Mining and Smelting Co. in Hida city (formerly Kamioka town), Gifu, Japan. It consists of 50,000 tons of pure water surrounded by about 11000 photomultiplier tubes. The cylindrical structure is 40 m tall and 40 m across. A neutrino interaction with the electrons or nuclei of water can produce a particle that moves faster than the speed of light in water (although of course slower than the speed of light in vacuum). This creates a cone of light due to Cherenkov radiation which is the optical equivalent to a sonic boom.

The detector, named KAMIOKANDE for Kamioka Nucleon Decay Experiment, was a tank which contained 3,000 tons of pure water and had about 1,000 photomultiplier tubes (PMTs) attached to the inner surface. The size of the tank was 16.0 m in height and 15.6 m in diameter. An upgrade of the detector was started in 1985 to allow the detector to observe solar neutrinos. [Kafros comment: It detected the 1987a supernova explosion at the LMC (Large Magellanic Cloud)]

 

3) Q, I think it would be more useful if you could please EXPLAIN why doppler is wrong.

Doppler radar uses the Doppler effect to return additional information from a radar system. The Doppler effect shifts the frequency of the radar beam due to movement of the "target", allowing for the direct and highly accurate measurement of speeds.

To me, it seems exactly what we need. This works especially well with the Motion Sensor.

 

4)

The Sudbury Neutrino Observatory (SNO) uses heavy water. In addition to the neutrino interactions available in a regular water detector, the deuterium in the heavy water can be broken up by a neutrino. The resulting free neutron is subsequently captured, releasing a burst of gamma rays which are detected. All three neutrino flavors participate equally in this dissociation reaction.

Someone could say that we were wrong, as that quote mentions γ-rays. But:

 

Cherenkov radiation (also spelled Cerenkov or sometimes Čerenkov) is electromagnetic radiation emitted when a charged particle passes through an insulator at a speed greater than that of light in the medium. The characteristic "blue glow" of nuclear reactors is due to Cherenkov radiation.

Gamma-rays are EM radiation at high frequences (actually, the highest range)

 

Just some random thoughts put in a haste...

 

This was is already difficult, so please help me and don't just say "ah, this is wrong because blah blah blah". I need alternatives. I really liked Moriarty's post

 

Neutrinos were a bad choice, but I was supposed to work with that, and I did. And this CT is sensible in most parts

Edited January 29, 2006 by kafros

[Qonfused]

Well, first; modern neutrino detectors aren’t able study the wavelength or frequency of neutrinos.

Second; the neutrino is a particle, so the only way I can think of examining the wavelength/frequency(exluding interference…), is by energy. And for that you need a variation from standard energy, and for that to work you need to base your assumptions on the fact that there is no other variable that effects energy.

 

Basically, using the Doppler Effect on quantum particles is a no-no. the most common error in high school physics text books is explaining the red-shift of light in away moving galaxys with the Doppler effect.

[kafros]

Well, first; modern neutrino detectors aren’t able study the wavelength or frequency of neutrinos.

Modern ones... 10 years later, in a fictional, hi-tech Xenocide universe?

Second; the neutrino is a particle, so the only way I can think of examining the wavelength/frequency(exluding interference…), is by energy. And for that you need a variation from standard energy, and for that to work you need to base your assumptions on the fact that there is no other variable that effects energy.

-edit-

Basically, using the Doppler Effect on quantum particles is a no-no. the most common error in high school physics text books is explaining the red-shift of light in away moving galaxys with the Doppler effect.

 

Reminds me of an article in Sciam, the 10 most common errors concerning cosmology. It included this "Doppler effect" confusion

Edited January 29, 2006 by kafros

[tzuchan]

Hmm...

Just a quick post to describe how Cartesian and I thought the Neutrino dectection system would work in the first place.

1st point:

Xenium reactors generate large amount of neutrinos

2nd point:

UFOs are commonly reported to be undetected by radars

3rd point:

X-Corps needed a detection system that could be concealed. Ideally under ground.

 

Science facts on how Neutrino Detection works(According to what I know. May be inaccurate)

Current Neutrino detectors that can detect and provide direction of source of neutrinos are the type described in the version of NEUDARs as I wrote it:

Spherical tanks filled with water(possibly heavy water I think) that are lined with PMTs

Neutrinos passing through the tanks have a chance of generating cherenkov radiation which results in a cone of (faint)light that can be detected via PMTs. With that information, you can draw a straight line towards the source.

 

With two or more neutrinos from the same source, you can then triangulate the origin of the neutrinos, hence possibly detecting a ufo. NOTE: The detected nuetrinos need not be from different tanks, just that by using multiple small tanks increases the probablity that neutrinos detected by the separate tanks will have greater differences in terms of source(ie, background radiation nuetrinos are easier to separate out from nearby xenium reactors because nearby sources will have greater difference in angles compared to faraway sources)

 

However, since there is a constant background radiation of neutrinos from various sources, the further away the ufo is, the less likely it is to stand out from the background radiation. Unless you have more neutrino detectors sharing data to filter out the background. Which also needs more computer processing power.

[kafros]

Hmm...

Just a quick post to describe how Cartesian and I thought the Neutrino dectection system would work in the first place.

1st point:

Xenium reactors generate large amount of neutrinos

2nd point:

UFOs are commonly reported to be undetected by radars

3rd point:

X-Corps needed a detection system that could be concealed. Ideally under ground.

Aren't these included more or less in the CT?

Science facts on how Neutrino Detection works(According to what I know. May be inaccurate)

Current Neutrino detectors that can detect and provide direction of source of neutrinos are the type described in the version of NEUDARs as I wrote it:

Spherical tanks filled with water(possibly heavy water I think) that are lined with PMTs

I haven't seen all the previous posts, but I think that you talked about ALOX system, CCDs, inertia etc... I think I changed it quite a bit.

 

If you want to change it according to your original ideas, then ok

Neutrinos passing through the tanks have a chance of generating cherenkov radiation which results in a cone of (faint)light that can be detected via PMTs. With that information, you can draw a straight line towards the source. With two or more neutrinos from the same source, you can then triangulate the origin of the neutrinos, hence possibly detecting a ufo. NOTE: The detected nuetrinos need not be from different tanks, just that by using multiple small tanks increases the probablity that neutrinos detected by the separate tanks will have greater differences in terms of source(ie, background radiation nuetrinos are easier to separate out from nearby xenium reactors because nearby sources will have greater difference in angles compared to faraway sources)

 

However, since there is a constant background radiation of neutrinos from various sources, the further away the ufo is, the less likely it is to stand out from the background radiation. Unless you have more neutrino detectors sharing data to filter out the background. Which also needs more computer processing power.

Is this different than the latest CT?

 

The problem is that this idea (or our ideas, if you think that your post and my draft are different, which I can't see) can't be implemented in real life.

[tzuchan]

I think the main thing you should change in your text is the use of the doppler effect... I'm not certain, but I think you're getting confused by my use of "Background radiation of neutrino" to mean that neutrinos are a kind of radiation, they are not.

 

Neutrinos are a kind of sub atomic particles that travel very vey fast and can easily pass through objects. The reason I use background radiation is because that was the closest term I could come up with to say that there is always a constant presence of neutrinos at any time.

 

That was the main reason why I reposted the basic theory behind the Neudar(Yes, in real life it prolly won't even be able to detect a single naturally occuring neutrino)

 

Also, regarding ALOX detectors etc. At the time I wrote the CT, I was not aware of the fact that PMTs are the most sensitive light detectors available(As a matter of fact, are they still the most sensitive?), hence the use of CCDs. However, as mentioned earlier, it is possible to increase the likely how of neutrino detection by using a denser material to increase the possibility of atom/neutrino interaction.

Also, I was probrably thinking about ALON when I typed ALOX

 

As it is, aside from the use of doppler in your text, I think the basic method of neutrino detection is fine as it is.

[Qonfused]

who's idea was it to make base the Neudar detector on neutrinos?

i think it would be better if its based on some sort of radiation(a more detectible kind), or maybe some form of electromagnetic wave. it could be intercepted alien communication. Something like a radio signal.

 

Scientifically, the only way to increase neutrino reaction is to increase the mass of the detection body. Now a mass of the Super-Kamiokande detection body(pure water) is about 50.000 Tonn. It detects about 4000 neutrinos a year, and around 100000 neutrinos pass through it every second.

 

I was wrong however on one point. Modern detectors are able to calculate the direction the neutrino came from

Edited January 19, 2006 by Qonfused

[Guest Azrael]

We will stick to Neutrino Detection.

kafros, how're you progressing with these texts?

[kafros]

Actually, I was waiting for more comments. I want to know what people think of the existing CT, and how you think we should progress.

 

In addition, I will stick to the Small NEUDAR, and once it is complete, the Large one will be a piece of cake

[[Mad]]

Actually, I was waiting for more comments. I want to know what people think of the existing CT, and how you think we should progress.

Well, actually, I would be very grateful, if ou could post a new version... Or at least tell me what you think you want to change on the current draw.

 

Btw.: qonfused, no offense, but I don't know where you got the thing with the red-light shift not beeing related to the doppler effect from, but the doppler effect still is the preferred explanation for this phenomenon. This is the very thing all contemporary astro-physic calculations are based on. They still teach it in the astrophysics lecture on my university, so I think there might be sth. to it...

 

---Edit---

typo

Edited January 27, 2006 by Mad

[kafros]

Well, not something... "EVERYTHING"!

Let's make this clear once and for all:

 

Google search: Why is doppler useful?

 

1) Ultrasound tests work due to our understanding of the doppler effect.

2) Astrophysics applications are usually based on doppler (beware of the "Expansion of the universe - Doppler explanation" issue, that's a common mistake)

3) Motion detection

4) Weather Prediction

5) Other things I can't think of right now

 

There was a twister movie (not "Twister", but another one with twisters destroying Chicago ) where a scientist said "Doppler the source" or something... dictionary.com doesn't contain such a verb though...

 

We will examine the use of the Doppler effect in the following situations:

(i) Red-shifts and the Expansion of the Universe

(ii) Hubble's Law and the Age of the Universe

(iii) Binary Stars

(iv) Rotation of Planets

(v) Doppler Broadening of spectral lines

 

I will soon provide another version Mad, just 4 u ^^

[[Mad]]

I will soon provide another version Mad, just 4 u ^^

Your efforts will not go unnoticed my young aprentice...

[kafros]

Your efforts will not go unnoticed my young aprentice...

Indeed, using The Force to slice you in 13 pieces will be noticed by many. Azrael will even record it in a VHS tape, as in "old times..."

[[Mad]]

Your efforts will not go unnoticed my young aprentice...

Indeed, using The Force to slice you in 13 pieces will be noticed by many. Azrael will even record it in a VHS tape, as in "old times..."

Why 13? Now stop the spamming and write!

[kafros]

Feeling unsafe, aren't we?

[[Mad]]

Feeling unsafe, aren't we?

Indeed, I do. After my most loved cup fell from my desk when I read your post....

[Guest Azrael]

Feeling unsafe, aren't we?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed, I do. After my most loved cup fell from my desk when I read your post....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The cup I gave you for your birthday!

[[Mad]]

Feeling unsafe, aren't we?

Indeed, I do. After my most loved cup fell from my desk when I read your post....

The cup I gave you for your birthday!

[kafros]

First of all, excuse me for the impetuous use of "doppler". Either my mind was stuck, didn't understand something, or I simply couldn't find any synonyms :shy:

 

After some more googling, I think this page is a compact, simple yet important summary of what we need:

 

http://www.amanda.uci.edu/public_info.html#Work

 

Now, I see that NEUDARs shouldn't be taken lightly. We either have to implement many different features that will make this seem rational, or we are forced to change the text...

 

I already see Vaaish getting mad at me , so it's #1.

 

So, what should we do with this neutrino detector?

[[Mad]]

So, what should we do with this neutrino detector?

Well, since AWD always has "the last word" we might reconsider the neutrinos.... although it sounds nice...

Other possibility would be a gigantic pool of water under the base - and the NEUDAR Facility is only computing... Then again this would be much more expensive then those few bucks you have to pay for the NEUDAR....

Soo, we can still stick to the NEUDAR and say, the UFOs emit that much, that these little tanks, filled with this special gel X-Corps scientists invented, are enough to detect an UFO...

So now comes the fun part: Neutrinos do leave a trace of "reactands" when crossing the detector "gel" (this is science. They do leave a trace in the big water detectors. Like alpha particles do in clod chambers.). We could detect those reactand traces and calculate the impulse vector. Voilá! We do have a system able to track UFOs. Another possibility is to calculate the direction of the neutrino source (read: UFO) by measuring the vector of the in the Neutrino - "Gel"-Molecule emitted photons and using the proposition of conservation of momentum to calculate the flight path of the neutrino. So the second tank could be used for fool proof checking with another principle or whatever else...

Detection itself works - as stated before - with simple photomultiplieres.

A complete different detection priciple is the use of Pb plates. When Neutrinos interact with Atoms, charged particles are "generated". These charged particles can be detected by CCDs... So this might be an explanation for the "dish" in the middle...

[Guest Azrael]

Guys, I think you're going too overboard with this. kafros last draft was perfectly acceptable, only a couple of things I think could be improved, but the general idea is fine, no one is going to question it as much.

It sounds realistic, and futuristic, and cool

 

edit: I didn't read Mad's post completely, I currently have my mind somewhere else so I don't yet see what's the problem I'm just posting in regards to reconsidering the neutrinos thing, I think it's good.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Azrael

[[Mad]]

edit: I didn't read Mad's post completely, I currently have my mind somewhere else so I don't yet see what's the problem I'm just posting in regards to reconsidering the neutrinos thing, I think it's good.

Well, if you would've readed my post completely, you would've seen that i proposed about three possible explanations, we could use, to save the NEUDAR...

 

---Edit---

typo...

Edited January 29, 2006 by Mad

[Guest Azrael]

edit: I didn't read Mad's post completely, I currently have my mind somewhere else so I don't yet see what's the problem I'm just posting in regards to reconsidering the neutrinos thing, I think it's good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if you would've readed my post completely, you would've seen that i proposed about three possible explanations, we could use, to save the NEUDAR...

 

---Edit---

typo...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Save it from what?

 

edit: kafros, your last draft was fine, please correct what you have/want to correct and post a new draft so we can work it out.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Azrael

[kafros]

I wrote this post while Azrael was replying

 

It seems you didn't study the link above

 

As mentioned above neutrinos do not interact much with ordinary materials like rock or ice.  But every once in while, they will collide with the nucleus of an oxygen atom in the ice.  The collision will not only destroy the oxygen nucleus (much like a car crash), but transform the neutrino into another particle, called a muon.  The muon is like a heavy electron.  It carries electric charge, which makes it relatively easy to detect.  Since it is heavy, it can travel for a long distance before it runs out of energy.  At the energies relevant to AMANDA, the muon can travel 5-10 miles before it "runs out of gas". This gives AMANDA an enormous advantage - the size of the detector is not limited to the instrumented volume of the ice because the neutrino can be detected even if it interacts 5-10 miles away!

The amazing thing about the collision is that the direction of the muon will be nearly the same as the neutrino that created it (to within a half degree). Therefore, by measuring the direction of the muon, which is relatively easy to do, we know the direction of the neutrino.

Because the muon is electrically charged, it will generate a special kind of purplish light called "Cherenkov radiation". This light is only observable in transparent materials when a charged particle is traveling in excess of the speed of light (in that material,not vacuum of course!).  Therefore, it is the optical equivalent of a sonic boom. It is this feable light that is detected by AMANDA sensors.

Summary:

Neutrinos are "transformed" into muons (μ) when they collide with ice, oxygen or water. Those muons have electric charge, which produces light (Chrerenkov radiation), which is caught by PMTs and thus you detect the source of the neutrino.

 

So, the main idea behind our NEUDAR is 100% rational and scientifically true. The problems:

1) We need a big,big,big quantity of water to achieve it. "Heavy" water doesn't really help

2) Additional PMTs don't help. If there are not enough light sources, more eyes don't really help (once more )

3) Muons are naturally created in the atmosphere. So, if our NEUDAR looks 360o around, as our current model does, you get some h3llish f***ing noise, you can't believe how bad it is... That's why Amanda and Kamiokande look DOWN, at the core of the earth. Neutrinos are the only particles that can travel through earth, and you don't have "atmospheric noise"

 

edit: Yes, it sounds cool. Even mutant tarantino-killer cows sound cool, but none would accept such an idea.

 

In addition, we could say that UFOs produce some special radiation called "Ultra", which X-Corps can detect. Once again, I would commit suicide if that idea got implemented

Edited January 29, 2006 by kafros

[Guest Azrael]

I wrote this post while Azrael was replying

 

It seems you didn't study the link above

 

As mentioned above neutrinos do not interact much with ordinary materials like rock or ice.  But every once in while, they will collide with the nucleus of an oxygen atom in the ice.  The collision will not only destroy the oxygen nucleus (much like a car crash), but transform the neutrino into another particle, called a muon.  The muon is like a heavy electron.  It carries electric charge, which makes it relatively easy to detect.  Since it is heavy, it can travel for a long distance before it runs out of energy.  At the energies relevant to AMANDA, the muon can travel 5-10 miles before it "runs out of gas". This gives AMANDA an enormous advantage - the size of the detector is not limited to the instrumented volume of the ice because the neutrino can be detected even if it interacts 5-10 miles away!

The amazing thing about the collision is that the direction of the muon will be nearly the same as the neutrino that created it (to within a half degree). Therefore, by measuring the direction of the muon, which is relatively easy to do, we know the direction of the neutrino.

Because the muon is electrically charged, it will generate a special kind of purplish light called "Cherenkov radiation". This light is only observable in transparent materials when a charged particle is traveling in excess of the speed of light (in that material,not vacuum of course!).  Therefore, it is the optical equivalent of a sonic boom. It is this feable light that is detected by AMANDA sensors.

Summary:

Neutrinos are "transformed" into muons (μ) when they collide with ice, oxygen or water. Those muons have electric charge, which produces light (Chrerenkov radiation), which is caught by PMTs and thus you detect the source of the neutrino.

 

So, the main idea behind our NEUDAR is 100% rational and scientifically true. The problems:

1) We need a big,big,big quantity of water to achieve it. "Heavy" water doesn't really help <--- This is the main problem

2) Additional PMTs don't help. If there are not enough light sources, more eyes don't really help (once more )

3) Muons are naturally created in the atmosphere. So, if our NEUDAR looks 360o around, as our current model does, you get some h3llish f***ing noise, you can't believe how bad it is... That's why Amanda and Kamiokande look DOWN, at the core of the earth. Neutrinos are the only particles that can travel through earth, and you don't have "atmospheric noise"

 

edit: Yes, it sounds cool. Even mutant tarantino-killer cows sound cool, but none would accept such an idea.

 

In addition, we could say that UFOs produce some special radiation called "Ultra", which X-Corps can detect. Once again, I would commit suicide if that idea got implemented

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I said cool and realistic. And I think you are subestimating what people would or would not accept

Please read Mad's post http://www.xcomufo.com/forums/index.php?showforum=103

And I think all of that can be easily explained with sci-fic, I don't yet see the problem.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Azrael

[kafros]

I already did.

 

I need something to "upgrade" this CT, otherwise it will have some major flaws. That's why I am asking for a CTD solution or an AWD one... I think CTD is enough, but then some things MUST be changed...

 

Edit: Mad, your ideas are nice, but I think they still rely on the existing flaws.

 

A "magic gel substance" could increase the number of transformed neutrinos, let's say we implement it.

 

Now, how will we remove the noise? The tanks must only "look down"...

Edited January 29, 2006 by kafros

[[Mad]]

Now, how will we remove the noise? The tanks must only "look down"...

Noise is no problem. I said: "...the UFOs emit that much, that these little tanks, filled with this special gel X-Corps scientists invented, are enough to detect an UFO... ".

If they emit that much neutrinos, you will still have a decent SNR. Trust me. I have callibrated a lot of physical equipment in my life. You have a lot of noise everywhere. but if you know the noise - and we do, it's no problem to compute even the tyniest signal out of it.

[Guest Azrael]

Now, how will we remove the noise? The tanks must only "look down"...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Noise is no problem. I said: "...the UFOs emit that much, that these little tanks, filled with this special gel X-Corps scientists invented, are enough to detect an UFO... ".

If they emit that much neutrinos, you will still have a decent SNR. Trust me. I have callibrated a lot of physical equipment in my life. You have a lot of noise everywhere. but if you know the noise - and we do, it's no problem to compute even the tyniest signal out of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*hugs Mad and gives him a new coffee mug with his photo printed on it*

[[Mad]]

Now, how will we remove the noise? The tanks must only "look down"...

Noise is no problem. I said: "...the UFOs emit that much, that these little tanks, filled with this special gel X-Corps scientists invented, are enough to detect an UFO... ".

If they emit that much neutrinos, you will still have a decent SNR. Trust me. I have callibrated a lot of physical equipment in my life. You have a lot of noise everywhere. but if you know the noise - and we do, it's no problem to compute even the tyniest signal out of it.

*hugs Mad and gives him a new coffee mug with his photo printed on it*

awww a mug! for me? That's great... you know what happened to the last one...