Aliens Vs Zerg

[Adun_Toridas]

well... this one is harder... I might go for aliens (BILLIONS of them), but if ethereals and sectoids could control the overlord, Zerg would become crazy, just like animals. I don´t know but vote.

[[Blehm 98]]

well, the aliens definitely has ships, but zerg would win for sure. unless the aliens stayed in space and glassed the zerg planets, the zerg would win every time, just because the zerg has larger numbers and some extremely powerful units(an alien task force of 3 battleships and 10 terror ships lands, and then 20 guardians annihilates all the landed ships in seconds, and almost all the troops are dead in minutes. Any survivors then deal with an army of zerglings and hydralisks all rushing at them, zerglings could kill anything in the alien army really fast due to there powerful and fast attack. they are small too, so that adds a bonus.

 

i say zerg hands down, unless, as i said, the aliens glassed the zerg

[mikker]

Well, the aliens play the role of all the 3 factions, and the cryss'es can do some fun stuff to the huge masses of aliens ( ) sso really, the overmind would have a hard time taking over the overbrain

[[Blehm 98]]

*chrysallid runs toward Zerglings

*chrysallid hits one zergling

*zerglings eat chryallid alive

*zombie is kill by zerglings

*chrysallid in zombie quickly killed as well

and i'd hate to see ultralist against anything on the alien side

[j'ordos]

moved to general xcom discussion

[Cpl. Facehugger]

The aliens. With ease. You're pitting a group that has highly advanced weapons against a race that can't even defeat a group of space-hicks.

 

I mean, honestly, what did the Zerg ever do to you to deserve this treatment?

 

(Reasons for why the aliens win can be summed up in a few short phrases, like Blaster Bomb, Mind Control, and Cyberdisk)

[[Blehm 98]]

What about hydralisks? what about guardians? Both of those are capable of killing just about anything if they can get there. And ultralisks? they're good, Zerglings are fast and may be able to evade most fire, especially in huge swarms, a couple BBs would kill a lot, but not enough

[Adun_Toridas]

The aliens. With ease. You're pitting a group that has highly advanced weapons against a race that can't even defeat a group of space-hicks.

 

I mean, honestly, what did the Zerg ever do to you to deserve this treatment?

 

(Reasons for why the aliens win can be summed up in a few short phrases, like Blaster Bomb, Mind Control, and Cyberdisk)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

1. Sorry guy, but if aliens are billions, zergs are trillions!!!

 

2. As someone said, a few guardians might kill all people inside an area... They ultralisk would easily destroy ufo walls and finally, MILLIONS of hydralisk will be making cyberdisk an acid soup.

 

3. If aliens send Battleships, zergs will send BILLIONS of scourges...

 

4. Ethereals might even mind control some zerglings or hydralisk... but when its a gigantic swarm gettting close to them, that does´nt looks so important...

Edited January 18, 2005 by Adun_Toridas

[Cpl. Facehugger]

The aliens. With ease. You're pitting a group that has highly advanced weapons against a race that can't even defeat a group of space-hicks.

 

I mean, honestly, what did the Zerg ever do to you to deserve this treatment?

 

(Reasons for why the aliens win can be summed up in a few short phrases, like Blaster Bomb, Mind Control, and Cyberdisk)

 

 

1. Sorry guy, but if aliens are billions, zergs are trillions!!!

 

2. As someone said, a few guardians might kill all people inside an area... They ultralisk would easily destroy ufo walls and finally, MILLIONS of hydralisk will be making cyberdisk an acid soup.

 

3. If aliens send Battleships, zergs will send BILLIONS of scourges...

 

4. Ethereals might even mind control some zerglings or hydralisk... but when its a gigantic swarm gettting close to them, that does´nt looks so important...

 

1. Zerg may be trillions, but they are trillions of giant insect creatures that can't even defeat a group of space hicks. (Ref: many of the Starcraft novels out there, as well as ingame when they lose to Marines.)

 

My point is that the aliens have a huge force multiplier in the blaster bomb. There is really nothing that the Zerg have that can equal that. Ultralisks will be destroyed by a few, as will your swarms of hydralisks and all your other ground units.

 

2. Aerial units lose badly to large scouts and above. I mean, it's not like Guardians/mutalisks are that fast, even in the cutscenes. UFOs are much faster, and MUCH longer ranged. Zerg lose in the air.

 

3. And those billions of scourge that aren't as fast as an alien battleship? You've got to remember that the alien ships are much faster than modern aircraft, something which the Zerg don't seem to be able to claim.

 

Speed is what wins the air battle for the aliens. Firepower and range comes second.

 

4. You don't understand, even if the Etherials MCed just a few zerglings, that will still provide a distraction, giving the aliens time to blast the whole swarm with blaster bombs.

 

heck, I'd be more inclined to think that the Etherials would go after the Cerebrates first.

Edited January 18, 2005 by Cpl. Facehugger

[Adun_Toridas]

1. Mutalisk may be slow... as they use wings, but scourges are very fast (even faster than protoss scouts and terran wraiths) so don´t understimate them.

 

Furthermore, if a battleship is surrounded (as normally happens with BC´s), no matter its velocity. Is DEAD.

 

2. Blaster booms are like tanks, but with finite ammo so, there will be a moment in wich it will sound click, click, and thats all.

 

3. It´s a swarm of zerglings!!! If ethereals MC 1 or 2, that will not distract a half million of them. Perhaps if MC 100000 but thats no feasible...

 

4. Zerg has devourers... and they are pretty fast. (Look videos)

 

5. Agains Cerebrates? Well, if they do not get impaled with lurkers...

[Cpl. Facehugger]

1. Mutalisk may be slow... as they use wings, but scourges are very fast (even faster than protoss scouts and terran wraiths) so don´t understimate them.

 

Furthermore, if a battleship is surrounded (as normally happens with BC´s), no matter its velocity. Is DEAD.

 

2. Blaster booms are like tanks, but with finite ammo so, there will be a moment in wich it will sound click, click, and thats all.

 

3. It´s a swarm of zerglings!!! If ethereals MC 1 or 2, that will not distract a half million of them. Perhaps if MC 100000 but thats no feasible...

 

4. Zerg has devourers... and they are pretty fast. (Look videos)

 

5. Agains Cerebrates? Well, if they do not get impaled with lurkers...

 

1. Scourges may be faster than scouts and wraiths, but you've got to remember that UFOs are faster than those by far. To put things in prespective, UFOs typically engage targets BVR and can frequently outrun the fastest modern fighters. In contrast, wraiths certainly aren't that fast, nor do they have that kind of range.

 

In addition, the scourge has to actually ram a battleship. A battleship going faster than the scourge is and possessing much greater weapons range and power.

 

2. You only need a few to wipe the battlefield clear of Zerg life. The Zerg have nothing with the *possible* exception of ultralisks that can take a blaster bomb and survive.

 

Plus, most other aliens are equipped with what are essientially one hit kill weapons in the form of heavy plasmas. Those things will tear through Zerglings like no tommorow.

 

3. You don't understand. Even if the Etherials MC one Zerging, the whole herd will have to pause for a moment to destroy that one renegade in their midst. Or detach a couple off to defeat it. Both are conductive to the Aliens' goals.

 

4. Devourers didn't seem that fast in the Protoss/Xel'Naga Temple temple chase scene.

 

Regardless, they get vaporized from far outside their range by a UFO.

 

5. That's the nice thing about Etherials. They can fly.

[mikker]

aaaaand it's draw. Again.

[Adun_Toridas]

1. Scouges are faster... remeber that they are so fast that when other units use the HyperSpace motors to get to a place, scourges moves so fast that they can chase the target!!! (so near lo lightspd) moreover, Zergs travel easily through space, a space with lots of millions years light so.... get your conclusions. The main point is that scourges does not use wings, they levitate (i don´t know how, but they do it).

 

But let´s compare velocities. My firestorm, moving at 9800 km/h (at last so i guess) can chase and reach a battleship. And a Terran Battlecruiser moving at 250000 km/h, remember duke´s shoot down sequence (cruise speed in space, i read it in a book about michaels liberty and terran history with raynol, kerrigan and the rest ) is easily chased down by a scourge so... again get your conclusions.

 

2. Well, About wiping the battlefield, don´t forget that Terran and Protoss did the same most of the times.... and after that they saw even a mayor Zerg forces over there... (Are the zerg made in Taiwan!!! )

 

3. About etherials. If you MC 1 or 2, that may distract 200 or 300 around them (for only one second until a claw gets into him), you are right. But you´ll have to control more to distract 100000000 of them.... and i´m not including hydralisk. Don´t forget that Zergs cannot feel panic, so the other ones (the billion) will not get distracted with such a foolness...

 

4. Plasmas and BB has limited number of charges. O.K. you´ll be making lotsa carnage ´till your plasma and blaster launcher will sound click, click, and them you will only have your fist to face 100000000 of zerglings and hydralisk... would be better to run.

 

5. Don´t forget Guardians, they can ripe a landed battleship in seconds so... how do you think that aliens will withstand such as double, land and air attack?

 

6. So the only solution for aliens... perhaps to mind control all the overlords as i said. So they would not MC 1 or 2 Zerglings, but the whole swarm (And send it back to the mastermind).

 

7. I love to talk about SC... don´t you love that...

Edited January 19, 2005 by Adun_Toridas

[Cpl. Facehugger]

1. Scouges are faster... remeber that they are so fast that when other units use the HyperSpace motors to get to a place, scourges moves so fast that they can chase the target!!! (so near lo lightspd) moreover, Zergs travel easily through space, a space with lots of millions years light so.... get your conclusions. The main point is that scourges does not use wings, they levitate (i don´t know how, but they do it).

 

What are you talking about? SC units don't use hyperspace motors in combat. Moreover, Zerg travel through some form of alternate dimension (warp jumping, IIRC from the original Zerg Campaign.) They can't move near c in real space. If they did, they would be ripped apart from the stresses of going at such speeds. If they moved at such speeds, one scourge would completely destroy a battlecruiser from kinetic impact alone.

 

But let´s compare velocities. My firestorm, moving at 9800 km/h (at last so i guess) can chase and reach a battleship. And a Terran Battlecruiser moving at 250000 km/h, remember duke´s shoot down sequence (cruise speed in space, i read it in a book about michaels liberty and terran history with raynol, kerrigan and the rest ) is easily chased down by a scourge so... again get your conclusions.

 

So are you using the book where the Zerg were defeated by hicks with pitchforks and hydralisks couldn't pierce glass with their spines? The one that proved that battlecruiser armor was less effective than said glass? You don't want to use the books as proof of Zerg superiority, because so much of them are bullcrap stats that make no sense. Unless of course you want to have hydralisks that can't even break glass...

 

2. Well, About wiping the battlefield, don´t forget that Terran and Protoss did the same most of the times.... and after that they saw even a mayor Zerg forces over there...

 

What? Please rephrase that more clearly. At any rate, the terrans and protoss do not possess weaponry with the portability and lethality of the blaster bomb. Terran nukes come close, but they are a hassle to call down.

 

3. About etherials. If you MC 1 or 2, that may distract 200 or 300 around them (for only one second until a claw gets into him), you are right. But you´ll have to control more to distract 100000000 of them.... and i´m not including hydralisk. Don´t forget that Zergs cannot feel panic, so the other ones (the billion) will not get distracted with such a foolness...

 

The aliens only need a few seconds to reload their blaster launchers.

 

4. Plasmas and BB has limited number of charges. O.K. you´ll be making lotsa carnage ´till your plasma and blaster launcher will sound click, click, and them you will only have your fist to face 100000000 of zerglings and hydralisk... would be better to run.

 

You're assuming that all the Zerg will be able to rush at a single point. Not likely, given terrain and other issues. The aliens can just set up choke points and blast the dumb zerg who pop their ugly heads inside.

 

5. Don´t forget Guardians, they can ripe a landed battleship in seconds so... how do you think that aliens will withstand such as double, land and air attack?

 

Where are you getting that from? Alien battleships can take hits from fusion balls. elerium boosted nukes, essientially and remain in the air. Your guardian spit won't even phase a UFO's hull, unless you can explain why it would...

 

6. So the only solution for aliens... perhaps to mind control all the overlords as i said. So they would not MC 1 or 2 Zerglings, but the whole swarm (And send it back to the mastermind).

 

Aww, why not just pull a UED and go for the overmind itself?

 

7. I love to talk about SC... don´t you love that...   

 

It'd be nice if I heard evidence backing up the Zerg superiority. All I hear are general statements about why the Zerg win. Now back those statements up please.

[[NKF]]

The closest thing to a blaster bomb is the Protoss Reaver's scarab, which is ground-based only but it still blows most all but the toughest zergs to kingdom come (like the Ultralisks).

 

Regarding limited ammo for the aliens: I don't know if it's fair to compare the normal infantry weapons in that way. See, we don't know that Marine gauss rifle bullets are infinite, nor do we know that the spikes on a hydralisk grow as quickly as they do in the game. Special attacks like the 'spells' and the really powerful weapons like blaster bombs, reavers and Yamato beams should be limited, but not general weapons.

 

Regarding zerglings overwhelming chryssalids... possible, but I don't really see how it would work. A chryssalid would indeed fall to repeated slashes, but it is fairly heavily armoured compared to a zergling and it impregnates on the first attack, and it can attack very rapidly at that. By the time it's half dead, it would be surrounded by ripened zombies that are only just waiting to burst with a fresh new chryssalid at full power. It would be literally set off a chain reaction. Ultralisks would be way too large to impregnate that easily, so I imagine they'd wipe out a chryssalid after a lot of attacks (big and tough though ultralisks are, they don't seem particularly hard-hitting compared to most other units - I generally use them as sponges to draw attacks away from my main forces)

 

Just a side note, Zergs, according to the game manual, actually adopt other species into their own. Most of the zerg strains are actually from a variety of planets around the galaxy. Amazing how one little broodling can re-engineer itself into a completely new species. This hasn't hasn't got anything to do with this discussion, but I hadn't actually read that bit of the manual before (my copy is a PDF, so it really puts me off reading it), so it seemed quite an interesting point.

 

- NKF

[Adun_Toridas]

1. The BattleShip will not be hit by one scourge, it´ll be millios of them.

 

2. I was including reloading in Zerg attack.

 

3. Guardians will not destroy battleship by the impact of their explosives acid, but for the acid itself that will melt the battleship. Remember, it´s chemical.

 

4. If you try to levitate, Devoureds Acid will melt your coracee...

 

5. I know a Blaster is powerful, but How can you compare a Blaster (taking the map measures of XCOM) of about a hundred metters, againt a nuke of miles of distance!!!? that´s ridiculos. Moreover, terran tanks use minor nuclear warheads.

 

About Protoss, go to the forth mission of SC original with Terran, inside the base. And you´ll know what are the Protoss Real mass destruction Weapons.

 

6. Zergs are stupid, but cerebrats and overmind are not. If you go to high points, what you´ll have to wait is an attack with guardians and devourers if you try to fly. Again, it´s not the impact not the explosion, but the acid wich will do the job.

 

7. Against crysalids and etherials... why not queens with spawn broodings? (a spoon of their soup).

 

8. Don´t forget queens and defilers. Queens can make a battleship slow... VERY slow and so with other units, and defiler may be into a cool spot launching it´s corrosive poison.

 

8. As NKF said, zerg only need a succesful and surprise attack on any alien post (especially mutons, crysallids or ethereals) to get their genetic code and... new Zerg Powerful species has apeared!!!.

[j'ordos]

3. Guardians will not destroy battleship by the impact of their explosives acid, but for the acid itself that will melt the battleship. Remember, it´s chemical.

 

8. As NKF said, zerg only need a succesful and surprise attack on any alien post (especially mutons, crysallids or ethereals) to get their genetic code and... new Zerg Powerful species has apeared!!!.

3. Nice, if it weren't for the little fact that Guardians can't hit aerial targets

 

8. Ok, then they have the aliens integrated. They still would not have Heavy plasma's, blaster launchers (and NKF's favorite: the Small Launcher ) and the other nice toys. And the aliend themselves fall just as easy to their own toys as any other, as Xcom demonstrated on countless occasions on millions of PC's around the globe

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Edit: Damned quotes.

1. The BattleShip will not be hit by one scourge, it´ll be millios of them.

 

Millions that will be destroyed from far outside their range you mean? Alien battleships can engage targets BVR with exceptional accuracy. Scourge have to actually ram the target, which can also absorb LOTS more firepower than a terran battlecruiser. Factor in that their target most likely has fusion balls, making things very messy for your scourge swarms, and you have a lot of dead scourge and perhaps a lightly damaged battleship.

 

 

 

2. I was including reloading in Zerg attack.

 

Even so' date=' the aliens' vastly superior weaponry will most likely blunt any Zerg attack.

 

3. Guardians will not destroy battleship by the impact of their explosives acid' date=' but for the acid itself that will melt the battleship. Remember, it´s chemical.[/quote']

 

Yes, and? Just because it's a chemical doesn't mean it will be effective against alien armor, especially when energetic plasma and elerium enhanced nuclear weapons are only moderately effective. Just because Guardians can chew through Terran and Protoss ground units with ease doesn't mean that they will do the same to alien alloys, which have been shown to survive far more than anything else the Terrans or Protoss have.

 

4. If you try to levitate' date=' Devoureds Acid will melt your coracee...[/quote']

 

And where is the proof that the Devourer acid will melt alien alloys? That it's effective against terran and protoss units is not important. (Although, it must be pretty weak, seeing as how it can't even destroy a wraith in one hit...)

 

5. I know a Blaster is powerful' date=' but How can you compare a Blaster (taking the map measures of XCOM) of about a hundred metters, againt a nuke of miles of distance!!!? that´s ridiculos. Moreover, terran tanks use minor nuclear warheads.[/quote']

 

Terran nukes do not have a blast radius in the miles. Unless you want to say that marines are 50 feet wide? Those Terran Tactical Nukes have, at most, a blast radius in the hundreds of meters, if that.

 

As for the tanks using nuclear warheads: Where is this stated? I can't think of any reason for why this would be the case, given that what we see ingame and during the cutscene with the dragoon being fired upon by a small scale artillery cannon provides no evidence for it. If there were, wouldn't you think that Marines or Zerglings would die a bit more readily to siege tank shots? It can sometimes take more than one, which certainly wouldn't be the case if those shells were nuclear.

 

About Protoss' date=' go to the forth mission of SC original with Terran, inside the base. And you´ll know what are the Protoss Real mass destruction Weapons.[/quote']

 

Err... The mission where you get Raynor on foot? I don't recall any mentions of WMDs in that mission, so could you explain what you're talking about?

 

6. Zergs are stupid' date=' but cerebrats and overmind are not. If you go to high points, what you´ll have to wait is an attack with guardians and devourers if you try to fly. Again, it´s not the impact not the explosion, but the acid wich will do the job.

 

Again with the acid. I ask again, how do you know that it can damage alien alloys, given the vast difference in strength between them and protoss/terrain armor?

 

7. Against crysalids and etherials... why not queens with spawn broodings? (a spoon of their soup).

 

Perhaps because of...say...the aliens' aerial superiority? Or even if not, because of troops on the ground shooting at the queens before they could get to the Etherials? Marines could shoot at queens ingame.

 

As for the chryssalids...You killed one only to generate two more, unless you manage to find an isolated chryssalid to use the broodlings on.

 

8. Don´t forget queens and defilers. Queens can make a battleship slow... VERY slow and so with other units' date=' and defiler may be into a cool spot launching it´s corrosive poison.[/quote']

 

Queens can make a battleship slow, but not for long. Defliers corrosive stuff couldn't even kill off any units. It could only reduce them to 1 HP. If it couldn't even destroy anything, why do you think it will have any effect at all on a sealed UFO?

 

8. As NKF said' date=' zerg only need a succesful and surprise attack on any alien post (especially mutons, crysallids or ethereals) to get their genetic code and... new Zerg Powerful species has apeared!!!.[/quote']

 

Like they did with the Protoss!!! Oh wait...

 

Seriously, if they could do that, why didn't they just ambush a Protoss squad, assimilate them, and suddenly gain psionic abilities that way? Why did they even have to waste their time with Kerrigan?

 

We don't know how long the Zerg assimilation process takes. We DO know that despite the fact that Kerrigan was assimilated, none of the other Zerg strains developed psionic abilities, something that *should* have happened, if the Zerg could disseminate new genes as you seem to think.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Cpl. Facehugger

[[Blehm 98]]

Well, battleships would kill tons of scourges, but not enough fast enough to kill all the scourges. on teh ground, aliens lose definitely. but as i said, in space, the aliens could just galss the planet and be done with it

[Adun_Toridas]

1. Zerg´s acid is NOT a normal acid. It can even melt down not only normal steel, but NEOSTEEL (Terran´s allow, hundreds of time stronger than steel that has nothing to compare against alien alloy) by the way that, a AP Bullet can kill a guy with personal coat, and the AP Bullet is made up of steel so... allien alloy is not so strong.

 

Moreover, that acid can even meltdown protoss alloys that are even stronger than terran ones.

 

2. In the game, Terran´s nuclear may not have miles of distance because it would unbalance it. But in real history, those are antimatter bombs. To put it clear, and antimatter bomb is far stronger than a fussion one (the one of the aliens) so... how can you compare them?

 

Moreover, the actual hidronukes has a range of 20 miles... and SC nukes are far superior than that.

 

I said that tank use nukes by the form of the explosion. What it´s being done is a mixture of game and history. If tanks were real, they would wipe out lots of zerglings with a single shot. But There were be not only 200 hydralisk but 200000000 so....

 

3. Defilers acid, is to WEAKEN the enemy. After that, a battleship will survive, but it will be so weak that.... well only a mutalisk shot would blow it up.

 

4. Not only Zerglings are Zerg troops... Also hydralisk and those are far dangerous... (A bigger and stronger version of snakemen) I wonder if crysalids will pass thorought Hydralisk´s Acid spike rain?.....

 

5. When a Devourer shoots an enemy, it REDUCES it´s armor. So more shoots, more damage each time.

 

6. Zerg decided to take over Terran first... so they created the infested, but wanted good speciments... thus that was an overmind decition.

 

7. If marines in SC try to shoot Queens, they first must pass the zerging´s, hydralisk and ULTRALISK (give thanks that i did not include TORRASQUE) wall. And that´s dubious... ( remember how many Scarab hits may torrasque resist ) Furthermore, in the alternate reality, there would´nt be only one torrasque but lots of them.

 

8. Again with the topic of velocities. If not only an scourge, but a devourer may fight at 250000 km/h (not lightspd) against a battlecruiser... that´s a problem for the battleships that are even smaller than BC...

 

9. As Blehm said, a battleship will not be able to kill enought scourges to get out of there alive...

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Edit: What the heck is wrong with my quotes!?

 

1. Zerg´s acid is NOT a normal acid. It can even melt down not only normal steel, but NEOSTEEL (Terran´s allow, hundreds of time stronger than steel that has nothing to compare against alien alloy) by the way that, a AP Bullet can kill a guy with personal coat, and the AP Bullet is made up of steel so... allien alloy is not so strong.

 

Neosteel. Yes. Now, where is your proof that this Neosteel is any better than normal steel? It could simply be an anachronism, with the Terrans calling it Neosteel as opposed to normal steel for whatever reason. Just because it's the future and it's called something different doesn't mean it's automatically better. Such a technological regression isn't unprecedented in sci-fi history. Just look at the ranges that Battletech 120mm cannons have. 250 meters, a far cry from the 4000 meters of the M1A1 MBT.

 

As for the AP bullet: Of course AP bullets kill. Humans are still squishy under the armor after all. UFOs have no nearby squishy things that can be easily disabled. UFO walls are also quite a bit thicker than personal armor.

 

Moreover, that acid can even meltdown protoss alloys that are even stronger than terran ones.

 

Where is my proof? All I hear are suppositions. I ask for PROOF to back up your claims.

 

Plus, if protoss alloys are vulnerable to light frag grenades like those on vultures, they *obviously* can't be that tough.

 

2. In the game, Terran´s nuclear may not have miles of distance because it would unbalance it. But in real history, those are antimatter bombs. To put it clear, and antimatter bomb is far stronger than a fussion one (the one of the aliens) so... how can you compare them?

 

If you really want to play the game balance game... In real life, alien battleships would be immune to every weapon due to shields, in real life a lone sectoid could kill millions of people with nothing more than a plasma pistol, and Etherials can cause your overmind to shrivel up and die through sheer mental power.

 

You see why trying to use the game balance arguement won't fly? Now, as for the nukes: Anti-matter isn't necessarily stronger than a fusion or fission one. It all depends on the amount of anti-matter you have. If you only have a small amount of anti-matter in that bomb, perhaps using it as a primer for a conventional fusion or fission device, then it wouldn't noticibly boost damage yield.

 

Even if you used a reasonable amount of anti-matter in the nuke, it *still* wouldn't be useful because of the safety threat and the absolutely huge cost involved in producing anti-matter in any meaningful quantity. The fact that terran nukes actually leave buildings standing and usable indicates that if they use anti-matter, they don't use much anti-matter.

 

 

Moreover, the actual hidronukes has a range of 20 miles... and SC nukes are far superior than that.

 

Again with the assumptions! We know that SC irradiated Korhal at one point. We do not know how many nukes they used, nor of what yield they were. The fact that it was safe to move around on in Megnsk's lifetime indicates that they couldn't have been too high yield.

 

We DO NOT know that Terran nukes are more effective than modern nukes. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Terran nukes are more effective than modern ones, especially when their capabilities have been shown to be less than modern ones.

 

I said that tank use nukes by the form of the explosion. What it´s being done is a mixture of game and history. If tanks were real, they would wipe out lots of zerglings with a single shot. But There were be not only 200 hydralisk but 200000000 so....

 

If they used nukes, marines and zerglings would not survive being hit or even a near miss from them. For one thing, nukes that small wouldn't work in real life because they don't have a critical mass of fuel to trigger a nuclear explosion.

 

Even assuming that the Terrans found a way around that, the overpressure from a near nuclear explosion like that would *vaporize* just about *anything* at ground zero.

 

3. Defilers acid, is to WEAKEN the enemy. After that, a battleship will survive, but it will be so weak that.... well only a mutalisk shot would blow it up.

 

X-Com ships don't work that way. You've got to hit the powersource to cause any meaningful damage. Now sometimes that will cause the power source to explode and other times it will cut out but not be destroyed. The point is that the Deflier's plague would be pretty ineffective against a UFO unless it could eat enough of the hull away so that it stops flying, or if it hit the power source. And that's assuming that it can even get through the hull in the first place.

 

4. Not only Zerglings are Zerg troops... Also hydralisk and those are far dangerous... (A bigger and stronger version of snakemen) I wonder if crysalids will pass thorought Hydralisk´s Acid spike rain?.....

 

Of course the Zerg have hyrdalisks. The problem is that those hydralisks don't have as much firepower as a cyberdisk or sectopod, their logical counterpart. As for the chryssalids, they can run quite a bit faster than a human, something the Hydralisk can't do ingame. Meh. Chryssalids are more effective against melee zerg anyway.

 

5. When a Devourer shoots an enemy, it REDUCES it´s armor. So more shoots, more damage each time.

 

Again. I ask where is the proof that Devourer shots will work like that against X-Com UFOs? You're assuming that because they work like that against wraiths and battlecruisers that they'll work like that on UFOs. That's assuming that the UFOs even stop long enough for the Devouerers to hit them. There's a limit to how fast a ball of acid can travel in an atmosphere after all.

 

6. Zerg decided to take over Terran first... so they created the infested, but wanted good speciments... thus that was an overmind decition.

 

The Manual said that the Zerg wanted the Protoss and that they needed the Terrans for their psionic ability so they could fight the Protoss on equal footing. My question is: "If the Zerg can assimilate new traits like you say, why don't they just bypass the terrans and ambush a small protoss group and take the psionic power for themselves from the Protoss?"

 

Because if they could do that, they wouldn't have needed to attack the Terrans at all. They could have saved all their forces for the Protoss.

 

7. If marines in SC try to shoot Queens, they first must pass the zerging´s, hydralisk and ULTRALISK (give thanks that i did not include TORRASQUE) wall. And that´s dubious... ( remember how many Scarab hits may torrasque resist ) Furthermore, in the alternate reality, there would´nt be only one torrasque but lots of them.

 

Err...If the queens are going to start spawning broodlings in the Etherials as you suggest, they're going to have to get into range to do it. Which means that the aliens on the ground are going to blast the queen. Besides, what's to prevent the Etherials from MCing the queens and turning them against the swarm? heck, even strapping a big honking bomb to them and sending them in as suicide units?

 

8. Again with the topic of velocities. If not only an scourge, but a devourer may fight at 250000 km/h (not lightspd) against a battlecruiser... that´s a problem for the battleships that are even smaller than BC...

 

Yes, again with the topic of velocities. Until you explain where this number (250000 km/h) came from, I will consider it faulty. We see nothing like that ingame or in the cutscenes, and as I've said before, the books aren't exactly the most reliable source of data since in one of them, hyrdalisks couldn't pierce glass with their spikes...

 

9. As Blehm said, a battleship will not be able to kill enought scourges to get out of there alive...

 

And I ask you: Why? Battleships have much greater ranges than SC. And when I say much, I mean much. Their weapons are pretty much one hit kill on scourge, and they're excessively accurate. And that's assuming that the battleships don't carry fusion balls, as is my theory. If they do carry fusion balls, your swarm is screwed by nuclear detonations.

 

Finally, I'd like to ask you something. If scourge were so effective, then how did Tassadar manage to get close enough to the Overmind in a carrier to actually ram it?

 

Edited January 22, 2005 by Cpl. Facehugger

[[NKF]]

I've actually put Devourers to good use by combining them with a variety of air units. They may not hit heavily individually (well they do, but they're so awfully slow) and devourers make pretty big targets themselves, but every hit they perform makes the next hit (from any other air unit) just that bit more poweful. But in a one-on-one, the devourer is no match for most but the smallest UFO. You'd need a generous fleet of them to put them to good effect. However, these effects, while cumulative, don't last forever (my guess is that they just soften the armour temporarily rather than eat it away). And to be pendantic about it, the aliens could just land and plink at the devourers from the ground.

 

I'd have to agree that you simply cannot compare the terran nuclear strike with a blaster bomb. It's all about scale. Mind, if you had a LOT of scarabs or blaster bombs blanketing a small area, you'd get the same effect, but you cannot compare them in a direct comparison. Now, a battleship on a suicide run with all four power units set to blow up violently... No but the aliens don't do that sort of thing. Not the aliens from the invasion fleet in UFO at any rate.

 

Hydralisks, even in the game, need to be used in mass quantities to be of any great effect - on their own, they are very weak (of course, they are many times stronger than your regular terran marine). A chryssalid can still soak up enough hits to get close enough to attack a few times. A mob of hunter-killers might be able to stop a chryssalid or two way before they can get close enough, as they have twice the hitting strength of a regular hydralisk. Good thing we're not including TFTD's lobstermen in this discussion - they wouldn't even feel a deluge of hydralisk spikes.

 

Torrasques, if I'm not mistaken, rely on their controlling cerebrate to ressurect it after a while (on top of being so heavily armoured). The torrasque, I have to admit, is a hardy foe, but if its loses the cerebrate, it's all over for it. You know they zergs should've taken advantage of their cerebrate's ability to heal, ressurect and even strengthen (to the point of invulnerability) to much better effect that they did. Then the alien fleet would be no match, unless of course the cerebrate does not protect the air immediately above it from an orbital insertion of alien troops. (Planting a forest of cerebrate strengthed spore colonies, for example)

 

In the end, everything comes down to strategy, for any side. Whether you're playing a game where the units have a paper-rock-scissors mentality or if you're playing a game where everyone's so fragile and the weapons are so ridiculously powerful, it doesnt' matter who has the biggest guns if they aren't used right.

 

- NKF

 

P. S: Is it just me or are the quote tags not being parsed by the forum software?

Edited January 22, 2005 by NKF

[[Blehm 98]]

*drumroll*

 

and NKF says it can happen

 

i dunno, i stand by my point

[[NKF]]

Heh, no matter what I say or who I appear to be posting in favour of, I'm really undecided and have not voted. But that's just me being myself.

 

- NKF

Edited January 22, 2005 by NKF

[Cpl. Facehugger]

I'd have to agree that you simply cannot compare the terran nuclear strike with a blaster bomb. It's all about scale. Mind, if you had a LOT of scarabs or blaster bombs blanketing a small area, you'd get the same effect, but you cannot compare them in a direct comparison. Now, a battleship on a suicide run with all four power units set to blow up violently... No but the aliens don't do that sort of thing. Not the aliens from the invasion fleet in UFO at any rate. 

 

Hydralisks, even in the game, need to be used in mass quantities to be of any great effect - on their own, they are very weak (of course, they are many times stronger than your regular terran marine).  A chryssalid can still soak up enough hits to get close enough to attack a few times. A mob of hunter-killers might be able to stop a chryssalid or two way before they can get close enough, as they have twice the hitting strength of a regular hydralisk. Good thing we're not including TFTD's lobstermen in this discussion - they wouldn't even feel a deluge of hydralisk spikes. 

 

Torrasques, if I'm not mistaken, rely on their controlling cerebrate to ressurect it after a while (on top of being so heavily armoured). The torrasque, I have to admit, is a hardy foe, but if its loses the cerebrate, it's all over for it. You know they zergs should've taken advantage of their cerebrate's ability to heal, ressurect and even strengthen (to the point of invulnerability) to much better effect that they did. Then the alien fleet would be no match, unless of course the cerebrate does not protect the air immediately above it from an orbital insertion of alien troops. (Planting a forest of cerebrate strengthed spore colonies, for example)

 

In the end, everything comes down to strategy, for any side. Whether you're plaing a game where the units have a paper-rock-scissors mentality or if you're playing a game where everyone's so fragile and the weapons are so ridiculously powerful, it doesnt' matter who has the biggest guns if they aren't used right.

 

- NKF

 

NKF, I wasn't comparing a blaster bombs destructivity to a terran nuke. I was comparing its portability and convienence. Both of which it has in spades compared to the nuke.

 

As for the Torrasque: Those make big and easy targets for mind control by Etherials...

 

And for why the Cerebrates couldn't heal other units: Hmm...Perhaps because it is straining on the Cerebrate to even ressurect one unit? I seem to recall that it took a bit of time to ressurect the Torrasque, after you killed it.

 

Edit: Hey, the quote worked! But...Why didn't my other quote work? Grr, this is so aggravating!

Edited January 22, 2005 by Cpl. Facehugger

[Tsereve]

The point is, if the Battleships use fusion balls on the Zerg from orbit, then the Zerg are dead. All of them. But if the Zerg can mass enough Scourges at once, and have them attack the aliens everywhere at once, the alien Brain will be so overloaded, it'll go berserk or something. The alien army will fall apart, just like in the aftermath of EU. Whomever attacks first would win.

 

However, if taken by surprise, and aliens have a better chance of winning than the Zergs do in the same conditions. They can set blaster bomb dudes a distance from all entrances, and use that trick to put multiple blaster bombs in one square ( :wink1: ) to keep all invaders out while they evacuate. Then, once the base/outpost is evacuated, the Zergs will all rush in. . .only to be decimated by the alien battleship hovering overhead.

 

Besides, numbers have no meaning in this fight because of. . .

ALIEN CLONING

[[Blehm 98]]

the zerg reproduce extremely fast. they only need a few hours to multiply into the hundred thousands...

[Tsereve]

Meanwhile, the aliens would be in the millions. You just can't be automated, electronic processes.

[Adun_Toridas]

1.hundreds??? man not million, not billions, TRILLIONS!!!! of zerg that are more than millions of aliens. (Remember the battle of tarsonics)

 

2.Neo Steel and other materials are new metals... and if they replaced steel, of course is because they are far stronger... that´s logic.

 

3. When an acid falls into something, it corrodes it. No matter whatever it would be, things have electrons and acid´s positive charge will finally attrack them, making the metal to corrode. Sorry, alien materials are strange and perhaps might resist the first acid splits, but they are metals. And as metals they MUST obey the chemical rules for metals.

 

4. In real life, overmind is a very STRONG psi entity. Remember that the terran psi had to sleep her in order to MC.

 

Zerg Armor is really strong (read the SC history), Strong enough that it can even resist terran´s gauss rifles.

 

5. Again, tank does not kill zerlings cause it would unbalance the game. But be logic!!! It´s earth future, and mankind use antimatter bombs... (At last Blizzard says so) so... if they replaced hydronukes by antibombs, that means that they are much more destructive.

 

6. Alien Battleships does not have shields... and even suposing that, don´t forget that even the strongest armor or shield goes out with lots of hits. And acid, as i said will finally open a hole on the hull, a big hole that will be the doom for the battleship. Moreover, Guardians and mutalisk will finish your ground forces. (Don´t forget that muta´s has splash damage).

 

7. To MC a Queen, someone has to see her. Of course, you MC one hydralisk and see her but don´t forget that Queens with overlords will see you first and then... Furthermore, Etherials MC is not like DA one, it has a chance based on psi defense. So as many defense as a not only a ling but the overlord or cerebrate may have IN A CREATURE, it´ll be harder to MC one. (That goes for Torrasque, he is a hero )

 

8. But finally, it would be good to know that as in the encounters vs Protoss, and a s NKF said all rellies in Strategy. fe, if a Zerg Cerebrate goes with only Zerglings against Aliens, he will lose against aerial power and flying suits. In the other hand, if an aliens goes with battleships only against Scourges And Devourers (devourers hit first to weak the armor, then scourges make kaboom) he will be eliminated....

 

9. I think we should make an SC clan... What do you think about it? Perhaps we may get joy over there.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

1.hundreds??? man not million, not billions, TRILLIONS!!!! of zerg that are more than millions of aliens. (Remember the battle of tarsonics)

 

2.Neo Steel and other materials are new metals... and if they replaced steel, of course is because they are far stronger... that´s logic.

 

3. When an acid falls into something, it corrodes it. No matter whatever it would be, things have electrons and acid´s positive charge will finally attrack them, making the metal to corrode. Sorry, alien materials are strange and perhaps might resist the first acid splits, but they are metals. And as metals they MUST obey the chemical rules for metals.

 

4. In real life, overmind is a very STRONG psi entity. Remember that the terran psi had to sleep her in order to MC.

 

Zerg Armor is really strong (read the SC history), Strong enough that it can even resist terran´s gauss rifles.

 

5. Again, tank does not kill zerlings cause it would unbalance the game. But be logic!!! It´s earth future, and mankind use antimatter bombs... (At last Blizzard says so) so... if they replaced hydronukes by antibombs, that means that they are much more destructive.

 

6. Alien Battleships does not have shields... and even suposing that, don´t forget that even the strongest armor or shield goes out with lots of hits. And acid, as i said will finally open a hole on the hull, a big hole that will be the doom for the battleship. Moreover, Guardians and mutalisk will finish your ground forces. (Don´t forget that muta´s has splash damage).

 

7. To MC a Queen, someone has to see her. Of course, you MC one hydralisk and see her but don´t forget that Queens with overlords will see you first and then... Furthermore, Etherials MC is not like DA one, it has a chance based on psi defense. So as many defense as a not only a ling but the overlord or cerebrate may have IN A CREATURE, it´ll be harder to MC one. (That goes for Torrasque, he is a hero )

 

8. But finally, it would be good to know that as in the encounters vs Protoss, and a s NKF said all rellies in Strategy. fe, if a Zerg Cerebrate goes with only Zerglings against Aliens, he will lose against aerial power and flying suits. In the other hand, if an aliens goes with battleships only against Scourges And Devourers (devourers hit first to weak the armor, then scourges make kaboom) he will be eliminated....

 

9. I think we should make an SC clan... What do you think about it? Perhaps we may get joy over there.

 

Trillions: Wasn't the swarm that attacked Aiur in the billions? I remember billions of Zerg being mentioned somewhere.

 

As for the Neo-Steel: Again, I am asking for proof. Just because it replaces steel doesn't mean it is automatically better. Especially not 200 times stronger, as you said. For all we know, it's just an anachronism and Neo-Steel is steel by a different name.

 

Acid: Not necessarily. Some materials are resistant to acid. In addition, the strong atomic force of the alien alloys' sub atomic parts could be strong enough to resist the acid. Given that it can resist elerium boosted nuclear weapons and the incredible heats and pressures that accompany them, I'd say that it's a pretty good bet that alien alloys can resist the acid, especially since their bonds don't decay even when hit with a nuke.

 

Saying metals

 

In real life, Etherials are very strong Psi-Entities. heck, they can void the laws of physics with their minds! The overmind and cerebrates get crushed by sheer mental power!11 Do you see why that line of arguement won't work now!?

 

Terran rifles certainly didn't look like gauss rifles when they were used in the broodwar opening cutscene. Unless they're really weak gauss rifles. When they were firing, there was little recoil and no really big boom that should have accompanied a super/hypersonic projectile firing. Maby they're like TFTD gauss weapons, gauss in name only. For a real gauss rifle would have no muzzle flash or typical gun sound.

 

As for Zerg armor...Meh. We don't know what it resists. We know that it can resist marine bullets, but we also know that those marine bullets can't even kill an unarmored civilian in a single hit, as a plasma rifle does. We also know that the Kinetic Impact of a low speed jeep is enough to kill a Zergling. (Ref: Cutscene where Lester ran over the zergling.) If a low speed jeep can kill a Zergling without damaging the front end of the jeep signifigantly, most anything will.

 

Your logic if flawed. Just because anti-matter nukes have apparently replaced more realistic fusion/fission devices doesn't mean they're more powerful. For one thing, anti-matter is quite a bit more compact than plutonium or deuterium. That means you can make your nukes smaller. Smaller nukes means they're more difficult to intercept.

 

There you go, I've just given you an example of why they'd switch over to anti-matter despite the vast cost difference.

 

As for the tanks: Ach. You DO understand that the game balance arguement won't fly, right? Because I can say the exact same thing about the aliens. For instance: Blaster Bombs can really destroy cities in a single hit, the only reason they can't do that in game is because of game balance.

 

6. Okay, then alien battleships have super armor that can shrug off teraton level nuclear weapons. Happy now? Game balance arguements don't work when you're comparing two games precisely because both sides can pull that kind of no-limits fallacy out of their proverbial rear ends.

 

Guardians and Mutalisks won't finish my ground forces. They aren't even that effective against competent Terran ground forces, what makes you think they'll be effective against an enemy that has better equipment, more numbers, and better aerial support? Guardians are too slow to be effective, especially when the aliens start sending the medium and large scouts after them.

 

For the queen to spawn broodlings in an Etherial, she must be in range to target him. That was my entire point. What's more important is that while Etherial's MC chance is based on psi defense, the Zerg have been shown to have next to none, for the most part. Or do we need to run the Zerg vs Zealot Psi-Blades or Templar Psi-Storm or Dark Archon Maelstrom/Mindcontrol again? Psi weapons are actually the most effective against the Zerg. (Actually, Dark Templar warp weapons are, but I suspec they're just a different form of psi-weapon.)

 

Of course it all comes down to strategy. I never disputed that, it's just that without a competent human player at the helm, the Zerg aren't particularly good strategists. We see they just mob their targets with huge swarms as opposed to feints or other advanced tactics or strategies. (Ref: Opening broodwar scene, swarm landing on Aiur scene.)

 

Until you can provide proof for your outrageous assertions, I will not conceed that the Zerg have a good chance of defeating the aliens.

[[NKF]]

On that same closing note, we can also say the same about the UFO aliens as well - although you do have a point in that their own ships can survive fairly destructive weaponry quite easily.

 

This next comment is made completely out of ignorance, not being knowledgeable in the subject, but:

 

The terran tank uses an 'Arclite' cannon, right? I could've sworn that the name 'Arclite' has been used for butane torches or whatever it is they call those plasma cutters used in vehicle workshops. Or maybe I was confusing the name for a brand...

 

Ah, perhaps we should keep arguments about the terrans to a minimum for the Terran -v- Aliens thread that I can see looming around the corner.

 

- NKF

[[Blehm 98]]

HOw about this - i'm pretty sure it says in the cloning facility CTD that it takes a while to finish the cloning process, i think its somewhere near a week, but i don't know for certain

 

zerg can double in size in a couple minutes

 

aliens can make new clones once a week

 

so i say its more like quantity>quality

[Cpl. Facehugger]

HOw about this - i'm pretty sure it says in the cloning facility CTD that it takes a while to finish the cloning process, i think its somewhere near a week, but i don't know for certain

 

zerg can double in size in a couple minutes

 

aliens can make new clones once a week

 

so i say its more like quantity>quality

 

We're talking about X-Com UFO, not Xenocide. (Your reference to the CTD)

 

Even so, if quantity > quality, the Terrans would be utterly destroyed by now. After all, it takes years for a terran to be born and reach fighting age...

 

The aliens have more weaponry, numbers, toughness, and aerial support than the Terrans. The very same terrans that can beat the Zerg. The very same terrans that can actually fight their way through the Zerg swarm and enslave the Overmind in Broodwar.

 

Aliens win unless the Zerg can pull some super tactics out of their hivemind.

[Adun_Toridas]

1. Zerg acid is molecular acid. That means that this acid is the most powerful of all (look chemistry about hydrogenions), even 100 times more powerful than sulphur one

 

2. If allien materials are so strong against acid... Why does my soldier with a flying suit gets killed with a celatid shot?

 

3. Lurkers on land will easily finish your ground forces such as mutons, crysallids and more. If you fly, there will be millions of mutas waiting you (so you will not stop all of them).

 

Then lot´s of hydralisk would finish what´s left. If someone manages to escape, It´ll be intercepted by so many scourges that you´ll have no chance to get out of there alive.

 

If i could´nt use lurkers, i use guardians. And it you are effective against mutas, i send devourers instead.

 

4. Trillions were on Tarsonics attack. Moreover, Zerg may multiplicate their production capacity, by producing only drones on one hatchery. Then those drones (about 100000 to be realistic) would become into new hatcheries, so zerg capacity would be multlipicated by 100000.

 

5. I will not talk about antimatter bombs or tanks as they are terran weapons, i will put it in another topic.

 

6. Yes, zergs are more feasible to MC, but it does´nt mean that they are stupid in strategy, it depends on the cerebrate. Don´t forget kerrigan´s defense on final mision on BroodWar.

 

7. I won´t explain about alien battleships vs devourers as i did it before.

 

8. Don´t understimate organic explosions. Mosto of Terran HE, are organic like C4. So it´s very posible that xcom terran misiles have organic explosives. Then, if about 20 interceptors may shoot down a battleship with avalanches... imagine what would happen with scourges. If battleship would have such as great armor as you said, it could´nt be shoot down.

 

9. I know blasters are powerful, but don´t exagerate. If those toys were able to wipe out a city, mutons would NEVER use it in bases or terror sites ´cause it would destroy them also. But they use it.

Edited January 24, 2005 by Adun_Toridas

[Cpl. Facehugger]

1. Zerg acid is molecular acid. That means that this acid is the most powerful of all (look chemistry about hydrogenions), even 100 times more powerful than sulphur one

 

2. If allien materials are so strong against acid... Why does my soldier with a flying suit gets killed with a celatid shot?

 

3. Lurkers on land will easily finish your ground forces such as mutons, crysallids and more. If you fly, there will be millions of mutas waiting you (so you will not stop all of them).

 

Then lot´s of hydralisk would finish what´s left. If someone manages to escape, It´ll be intercepted by so many scourges that you´ll have no chance to get out of there alive.

 

If i could´nt use lurkers, i use guardians. And it you are effective against mutas, i send devourers instead.

 

4. Trillions were on Tarsonics attack. Moreover, Zerg may multiplicate their production capacity, by producing only drones on one hatchery. Then those drones (about 100000 to be realistic) would become into new hatcheries, so zerg capacity would be multlipicated by 100000.

 

5. I will not talk about antimatter bombs or tanks as they are terran weapons, i will put it in another topic.

 

6. Yes, zergs are more feasible to MC, but it does´nt mean that they are stupid in strategy, it depends on the cerebrate. Don´t forget kerrigan´s defense on final mision on BroodWar.

 

7. I won´t explain about alien battleships vs devourers as i did it before.

 

8. Don´t understimate organic explosions. Mosto of Terran HE, are organic like C4.  So it´s very posible that xcom terran misiles have organic explosives. Then, if about 20 interceptors may shoot down a battleship with avalanches... imagine what would happen with scourges. If battleship would have such as great armor as you said, it could´nt be shoot down.

 

9. I know blasters are powerful, but don´t exagerate. If those toys were able to wipe out a city, mutons would NEVER use it in bases or terror sites ´cause it would destroy them also. But they use it.

 

1. How do you know it's molecular acid? Further, how do you know that something one hundred times more powerful than HCL (a misnomer actually, given that it's molarity that determines an acid's power) will affect alien alloys? These are things that have resisted nukes before. Nukes that put forth far more bond-breaking energy than any acid ever could.

 

2. There are several explanations. A: The celatid sprayed the acid on the guy's face, where there is far less alien alloy and more glass/plexiglass/see-through stuff. B: Celatid acid has some sort of special enzyme that breaks down Alien alloys. C: The Celatid acid found a weak point in the armor, probably a joint. Celatids can't destroy alien alloy walls though, which means that their acid is not powerful enough to melt through thick alien alloys, ruling out B. So it's probaly A or C. I'd lean towards A myself.

 

3. Lurkers that can get detected by alien psionic detectors and destroyed by cyberdisks you mean? Further, the aliens can just launch a blaster bomb in the general area of the Lurker and still get a kill. As for the Mutalisks: Speed and Firepower: The Aliens have it, the Mutalisks don't.

 

As for hydralisks: Alien weapons and tank units (sectopod and cyberdisk) are far more powerful than the hydralisks can ever be. They'll be getting mowed down in short order unless you have literally millions in one place at once, an impossibility given that there can only be so many zerg in one place at once (overlord control problem) as well as the fact that unless you're fighting in a wide open plain, there will be obstructions like forests, mountains, oceans, et cetera.

 

4. Trillions? Okay. I'll take your word for that. But do you know how many of each species comprised those trillions? It could have been mostly overlords for all we know. Further, to be realistic, the aliens can clone billions of new mutons within an hour. (I keep trying to tell you that gamebalance/realism arguements don't work here!)

 

5. Okay. I'll destroy that arguement in the Terran topic.

 

6. Look at the cutscenes. Zerg invariably rush towards their opponents without any real regard for strategy or cover. Against a competent enemy, they would be mowed down easily but that is neither there nor here. For the final mission of broodwar, remember who was leading the Zerg? A Human player. Left to their own devices, Cerebrates just try to swarm over their opponents, as we see in the cutscenes.

 

7. Yes, but I already cast doubt on the battleships versus devouerers, and you haven't provided proof that their acid will even affect the alien battleships. Proof I say, not suppositions.

 

8. C4 is organic? That's news to me. I thought it was wholly synthetic. At any rate, the main reason for why the Scourge wouldn't do anything to the battleships is that they're slower and have a much shorter range. They won't even get close enough to ram. Of course, there's also the fact that Avalanches are much greater ranged and probably have more power than Scourge too. (Avalanches can disable an alien fighter, the Small Scout) in a single hit. Scourge can't do that to Scouts/Wraiths/Mutalisks, can they?

 

9. That was an example to prove to you why game balance and realism arguements don't work when you're comparing two games. I don't really believe that BBs can take out cities, but since you insist on terran nukes being more powerful than they are (without any proof other than "They're more powerful than the game portrays because I say so.") then I bring out the citykilling BBs.

 

The same thing happens when you try to bring out the Devouerer's acid destroying battleships, the Scourges 200,000 miles per second speed, or other crap that you haven't proven.

 

You want to know the only way you can get me to shut up and admit you're right? You've got to provide direct proof. Not assertions, proof. You say the zerg are more powerful than I give them credit for, but you've got to back up that assertion with proof that I can't defeat. I haven't seen even a shred of this proof yet. So either you don't have it, or you've been ignoring my repeated requests for it.

Edited January 24, 2005 by Cpl. Facehugger

[Adun_Toridas]

1. Blizzard says it´s molecular acid and they created the game .

 

2. Would´nt it be easier for celatid to simply melt down allien alloys?, if they don´t melt down allien battleship is cause the thick and that´s it. That´s much easier than trying to get complicated conclusions.

 

3. Mind probes are used against ground units not aerial ones. Furthermore, it´s to LOCATE them first.

 

4. Kerrigan WAS a human, now it´s a Zerg

 

5. All molecule that has carbonide (i don´t remember how to write "carbono" in english) excepting CO2 and CO is considered organic.

 

6. Sectopods, mutons, crysallids, sectoids, Reapers, and more... will be destroyed with guardians. The REST (Floaters, Celatids, Cyberdisk and Ethereals would be wipe out with hydralisk and mutas) I will concede (althought mutas flight in space) that ufos are faster than mutas, but slower than a flying suit!!!! don´t be ridiculous.

 

7. i don´t want to shut you up. I like your comments, it enjoys me. When you answer, you give me feedback and i can think to write an answer and spend my time. But finally, i would like to conclude that this topic as the other ones begun as jokes, i mean forms of getting joy. We can not seriously compare them, as they both are from different worlds. f.e, noone knows if the allien alloy will resist the acid (taking your words) for a long time. But noone knows Zerg´s zerlings would destroy mutons by surprise (burrow), or even worse that may get out of ammo against incomming hydralisk, mutas and guardians. So really there is no point to compare, and let´s the topic as what the topic is a FUNNY ONE.

 

P.S. You also gave assertions... how can you prove ufos are faster than mutas and devourers? But let´s finish it here right.

Edited January 24, 2005 by Adun_Toridas

[mikker]

IMO, the only way the zerg could win, is if the Vaaich joined them in the fight.

 

And Adun, you're arguments is far worse then facehuggers.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

1. Blizzard says it´s molecular acid and they created the game .

 

2. Would´nt it be easier for celatid to simply melt down allien alloys?, if they don´t melt down allien battleship is cause the thick and that´s it. That´s much easier than trying to get complicated conclusions.

 

3. Mind probes are used against ground units not aerial ones. Furthermore, it´s to LOCATE them first.

 

4. Kerrigan WAS a human, now it´s a Zerg

 

5. All molecule that has carbonide (i don´t remember how to write "carbono" in english) excepting CO2 and CO is considered organic.

 

6. Sectopods, mutons, crysallids, sectoids, Reapers, and more... will be destroyed with guardians. The REST (Floaters, Celatids, Cyberdisk and Ethereals would be wipe out with hydralisk and mutas) I will concede (althought mutas flight in space) that ufos are faster than mutas, but slower than a flying suit!!!! don´t be ridiculous.

 

7. i don´t want to shut you up. I like your comments, it enjoys me. When you answer, you give me feedback and i can think to write an answer and spend my time. But finally, i would like to conclude that this topic as the other ones begun as jokes, i mean forms of getting joy. We can not seriously compare them, as they both are from different worlds. f.e, noone knows if the allien alloy will resist the acid (taking your words) for a long time. But noone knows Zerg´s zerlings would destroy mutons by surprise (burrow), or even worse that may get out of ammo against incomming hydralisk, mutas and guardians. So really there is no point to compare, and let´s the topic as what the topic is a FUNNY ONE.

 

P.S. You also gave assertions...   how can you prove ufos are faster than mutas and devourers? But let´s finish it here right. 

 

1. Thank you, that's the kind of proof I'm looking for. Now, let's move on to "How do we know that Molecular acid can affect alien alloys?" Acid can only contain a certain amount of energy that it uses to break nuclear bonds. Fusion weapons have far more energy to use for that purpose. Since alien alloys have survived fusion weapons, how do we know that molecular acid will do anything to them, given that it has far less energy to use to destroy the alloy?

 

2. I'm trying to think of a reason for why the Celatid can get through power suits and yet not do any damage whatsoever to UFO walls. I've tried blasting UFO walls with dozens of celatid shots, and it does nothing. Now, unless UFO walls are so thick as to render Celatid acid useless (which may be the case, but that would likely render Guardian/Devourerer acid useless too.)

 

3. I'm not refering to mind probes. I'm refering to what was referenced in the Mind Shield UFOpedia entry, where it said that the aliens can find an underground base based on the mental emissions of its occupants.

 

4. Kerrigan was a commando, not a tactician. Furthermore, it was a human player in control of the Zerg in the final mission. It's almost as though the Cerebrate was possessed for that mission.

 

5. Okay. I gotcha. All molecules with carbon are organic. Yup, I should've remembered that too.

 

6. Guardians will be destroyed by alien aerial superiority. Hydralisks will be wiped out with heavy plasmas and blaster bombs.

 

I also never said that a Mutalisk was slower than a flying suit. After all, flying suits are pretty slow as far as aerial units go.

 

7. Of course. However, we do have numbers for the Aliens, and numbers can be extrapolated for the Zerg given what we see in the cutscenes and ingame.

 

Finally, I know that UFOs are faster because of this: http://www.xcomufo.com/x1ufopaedia/pics/big/shot0114.png. That clearly says 5000 knots which is far faster than your average modern craft, as well as faster than what we've seen the Zerg capable of. (I'm refering to the broodwar protoss ending cutscene, with all the mutalisks flying around. They certainly weren't moving at 5000 knots.

 

Edit: Just saw #7. Okay, no need to reply.

Edited January 25, 2005 by Cpl. Facehugger

[Shinzon]

Man... it seems like you are arguing like its a life or death matter...

 

remeber that the starcraft units are horrendesly out of scale... for scale you should look at starcraft ghost screenshots...

 

and in the final cut scene where tassadar takes out the overmind 3 mutas manage to do alot of damage to the insides of teh carrier...

 

overmind cerebrate psi is also very strong... mabe its not the same type of psi? but kerrigan is able to cast down a psi storm... and she is as strong as the overmind...

 

zerg rely on psi just like the aliens...

 

so in reality the overmind and ethralks will be stuck trying to un jamm eachothers psi signals and the troops will be just bumping into eachother... (mutons wont die since they are still linked to something)

 

etherals arent as strong as the overmind but there are alot of em... the overmind has to controll millions of units thats why he has the help of the cerebrates... who CANT be killed by anything excpet dark templars... does anyone rember that annoying mission?

 

but in reality i think its more fun and logical if the zerg and the aliens join up? unless kerrigan gets power hungry...

 

 

and does anyone know HOW the zerg AND the aliens cover lightyears of distance? neither has been mentioned... but both are capable of space flight (how can a hunk of flesh fly? in space... )

[mikker]

hah! Maybe the zerg IS the vaaich!

[Shinzon]

DUN DUN DUN!!!!

 

you found out the secret...

 

now you must pay...

 

prepare to be zerganated... >.>

[Adun_Toridas]

1. I can´t stop talking of this... muaaahahaha :b

 

2. Well Acid works different than nuclear explosions. Why? Because acid are chemical weapons that attack the molecular links between the atoms (i.e electrons) not the atom itself as nuclear reactions, so it does´nt have to be like a nuke to generate a disruption in the material.

 

Remember thar guardian´s acid is much more concentrated than hydralisk one. And... have you ever thought how so powerfull is celatid acid vs hydralisk one? celatid should have molecular acid (and we can not assume that) to be as powerfull as hydralisk´s one.

 

3. Zerg velocities are to be proved. We don´t know the real velocity of Zerg, as they fight not only in the atmosphere but also in space, so don´t assume that Zerg are slow until having data.

 

4. Devourers always follow the guardians.

[Red Stone]

1. I can´t stop talking of this... muaaahahaha :b

 

2. Well Acid works different than nuclear explosions. Why? Because acid are chemical weapons that attack the molecular links between the atoms (i.e electrons) not the atom itself as nuclear reactions, so it does´nt have to be like a nuke to generate a disruption in the material.

 

Remember thar guardian´s acid is much more concentrated than hydralisk one. And... have you ever thought how so powerfull is celatid acid vs hydralisk one? celatid should have molecular acid (and we can not assume that) to be as powerfull as hydralisk´s one.

 

3. Zerg velocities are to be proved. We don´t know the real velocity of Zerg, as they fight not only in the atmosphere but also in space, so don´t assume that Zerg are slow until having data.

 

4. Devourers always follow the guardians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

2. Both acids and nuclear explosions breaks the bonding of the atoms/molecules in the material. Acids work by offering an electron-based reaction route with a feasible enthalpy change, nuclear explosions work by inserting raw energy to break the bonds. The end result that is wanted is the same: break stuff up. However, it would take quite a combination, and quite a large volume of chemicals to melt a city, whereas if you drop a nuke . . .

 

3. You're right. The same can be said for the UFO's - anyone have their flight speeds in space? I've not played Interceptor . . .

 

4. Eh?

 

Just one thing, though I'm quite sure I'm making the mistake of taking an in-game observation as a fact here: I'm sure that you guys know how much of a threat towards the Zerg air units a sizable Goliath force poses, especially after said Goliaths have been upgraded with Charon Boosters for their Hellfire Missiles. And how is that done? Bear in mind that most, if not all, of the Terran weaponry were made to kill Terrans; the Goliath certainly weren't meant to face Ultralisks or Reavers. I doubt you would arm missiles on such a lightly-armoured unit (even when compared to a dragoon???) with nuclear or anti-matter warheads . . .

[Exo2000]

If your Zerg are feeling cocky, let them come up against a Silacoid. Silicon-based, generates extreme temperatures. Ya know what happens to any liquids and solids at extreme temperatures? Most liquids should vaporise, and most solids will, if passing from normal temp to extreme heat, will most likely either melt and vaporise, or break into harmless fragments.

 

Also, Firebats vs. Zerg usually ends up in the Firebats winning. Silacoids will do far, far better. Heck, the Silacoids are also incredibly strong- they could.. er.. basically, jump on top of the victim, then CRUSH them to death under their own strength and weight.

 

They do require a higher being to control them, but as such, they can probably beat the shite out of most zerg in a one-on-one, maybe excluding the ultralisk, and that'd be a stand off until the ultralisk managed to get itself set on fire due to continued exposure to the heat from the Silacoid.

[kafros]

Both of those are capable of killing just about anything if they can get there.

IF!, they can get there...

Well, 20 utralisks and 60 cloaks, who do you think wins?!?!?! :D :D

 

20 cloaks mind control, 10 more aid, the other 30 play football

[Adun_Toridas]

If your Zerg are feeling cocky, let them come up against a Silacoid. Silicon-based, generates extreme temperatures. Ya know what happens to any liquids and solids at extreme temperatures? Most liquids should vaporise, and most solids will, if passing from normal temp to extreme heat, will most likely either melt and vaporise, or break into harmless fragments.

 

Also, Firebats vs. Zerg usually ends up in the Firebats winning. Silacoids will do far, far better. Heck, the Silacoids are also incredibly strong- they could.. er.. basically, jump on top of the victim, then CRUSH them to death under their own strength and weight.

 

They do require a higher being to control them, but as such, they can probably beat the shite out of most zerg in a one-on-one, maybe excluding the ultralisk, and that'd be a stand off until the ultralisk managed to get itself set on fire due to continued exposure to the heat from the Silacoid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Only one response. Ultralisk, that can easily resist heat (don`t forget that they can even resist the plasma shots from siege tanks)...

[Red Stone]

Plasma shots from Siege Tanks? What was it about Siege Tanks using "mini-nukes" earlier on? Or do the Siege Tanks fire plasma (o_O) in Tank Mode?

[mmcc]

Well, Protoss have dark archons which can take over a mind permanently. Zergs seemed to chug on just fine even after taking some losses to mind control so doubt ethereals would phase them all too much. And they have dark swarm which nullifies all projectile weapons on the ground and they can use broodlings on chrysallids before they got too close.

 

But seriously, it's stupid trying to compare techs of both sides when both games are far from hard scifi. Especially when they involve doozies like mind control and a fog of insects that nullify all projectile weaponry.

 

I think it's an issue of scale. In Starcraft's universe, the main Terran forces are just outcasts from Earth and they own several thriving planets. And the Protoss is an ancient intergalactic empire. And the expeditionary fleet sent from Earth in Broodwar were a significant force even though it was only a part of Earth's total military assets. The Protoss spaceships had the ability to 'sterilize' an entire planet of all living things (talking cinematics and story from manual here) and even the outcast Terrans had the ability to call down orbital nuclear bombardments to waste a planet. And by the end of Broodwar, the Zerg beat them all off. Literally simultaneously.

 

And the Aliens have trouble with a piddly planet with 20th century tech. Of course, the ending in X-Com 1 suggests they are much bigger, but not much has been said about that as far as I know. In Interceptor (I haven't played the game so I'm going on X-Com timeline I've read somewhere), they have trouble with Earth again, even though Earth has some serious economic problems, albeit with some better tech.

 

Of course Aliens could win easily if they could just get the Zerg to assimilate Reapers and pollute the entire Zerg genepool.

[[NKF]]

Why? They've already beaten the aliens to it. Reapers ~= Ultralisks or Zerglings)

 

Seriously though, the Reapers wouldn't pollute the Zerg gene pool. Parts of other aliens don't get added to others (unless they want it to). The species is added to the Zerg pool, yes, then they can selectively produce or evolve said species from their broodlings. If they find the reapers to be too clumsy, they just stop producing them - or produce them en-masse like the Zerglings.

 

---

 

Starcraft plays battles on a grander scale.

 

The aliens in UFO mainly failed in 'numbers' due to their lack of resources. (Oh, sure the game can produce an infinite number of them - but that's not the point). Being an advance invasion fleet based on Mars, I don't think they had sufficient resources to mount a full scale attack - hence why they had to convince the earth governments to hand it over to them (by force or in the guise of supporting them and putting down this odd bunch of money guzzling good for nothings claiming to be fighting the so called 'alien menace' when all they're doing is blowing up our farm houses with gratuitous use of explosives).

 

If we were to compare the earth invasion fleet against any of the Starcraft war machines, it wouldn't be much of a fight. I mean, the captial ships used by the aliens in UFO are really just the size of a small shopping block, with a disco. Oh the technology compensates for everything, but the scale is just... you just cannot compare it to a terran battlecruiser, which is probably the size of a small town.

 

Hmm. No, wait, the aliens failed because they were just horrible at collecting and managing their resources. Yeah, that's it. Not enough vespene geysers, I think.

 

---

 

What next I wonder? Aliens -v- Covenant (Halo), Aliens -v- ISDF/Scions (Battlezone)? Aliens -v- Lemmings? Aliens -v- Ancient Rome (any game with Romans)? Aliens -v- Shodan/the Annelid (System Shock)? Aliens -v- Groove Champion (I76)? Aliens -v- The corny satanic motif aliens from the Doom series? Plenty of games to choose from, lots of amusing excuses and potential heated arguments to explain why the group you're rooting for will win (or lose).

 

- NKF

Edited March 26, 2005 by NKF

[Adun_Toridas]

well man, the pools were post for joy... and i´m enjoying a lot

 

Plasma shots from Siege Tanks? What was it about Siege Tanks using "mini-nukes" earlier on? Or do the Siege Tanks fire plasma (o_O) in Tank Mode?

 

well, i´ve been resarching and found that here.

 

http://www.battle.net/scc/terran/ut.shtml

Edited March 27, 2005 by Adun_Toridas